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quote:
Originally posted by Tenn on my mind:
If Bruce Springsteen and Ben Affleck think he's great, he's great. Whenever I want really incisive opinion, I go to Bruce and Ben. Loose, left wing nuts.


Maybe Bruce and Ben have seen light that is not visible to you.

Maybe your best choice of a celebrity would be Ted Nugent or someone of his ilk.

Howard Zinn was a patriot in the finest sense.I suspect you actually know next to nothing about him.

Read up, starting here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
Another academic Marxist goes to his just rewards -- from ivory tower to a deep hot pit. Despite years of experience with Marxism, this bunch ignores the evidence and insists, next time they would get it right.


How casually you dismiss a man with THESE credentials:

AWARDS

Zinn's first book, La Guardia in Congress, won the American Historical Association's Beveridge Prize as the best English-language book on American history.
Zinn was a finalist for the National Book Award in 1981 for A People's History of the United States.
Zinn has received the Thomas Merton Award and the Eugene V. Debs Award. In 1998, he won the Lannan Literary Award for nonfiction and the following year won the Upton Sinclair Award, which honors social activism. In 2003, Zinn was awarded the Prix des Amis du Monde diplomatique for the French version of his seminal work, Une histoire populaire des Etats-Unis.
On October 5, 2006, Howard Zinn received the Haven's Center Award for Lifetime Contribution to Critical Scholarship in Madison, Wisconsin.

PUBLICATIONS

Artists in Times of War (2003) ISBN 1-58322-602-8.
The Cold War & the University: Toward an Intellectual History of the Postwar Years (Noam Chomsky (Editor) Authors: Ira Katznelson, R. C. Lewontin, David Montgomery, Laura Nader, Richard Ohmann,[49] Ray Siever, Immanuel Wallerstein, Howard Zinn (1997) ISBN 1-56584-005-4.
Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology (1991) ISBN 0-06-092108-0[50]
Disobedience and Democracy: Nine Fallacies on Law and Order (1968, re-issued 2002) ISBN 0-89608-675-5.
Emma: A Play in Two Acts About Emma Goldman, American Anarchist (2002) ISBN 0-89608-664-X.
Failure to Quit: Reflections of an Optimistic Historian (1993) ISBN 0-89608-676-3.
The Future of History: Interviews With David Barsamian (1999) ISBN 1-56751-157-0.
Hiroshima: Breaking the Silence (pamphlet, 1995) ISBN 1-884519-14-8.
Howard Zinn On Democratic Education Donaldo Macedo, Editor (2004) ISBN 1-59451-054-7.
Howard Zinn on History (2000) ISBN 1-58322-048-8.
Howard Zinn on War (2000) ISBN 1-58322-049-6.
Justice in Everyday Life: The Way It Really Works (Editor) (1974) ISBN 0-89608-677-1.
Justice? Eyewitness Accounts (1977) ISBN 0-8070-4479-2.
La Otra Historia De Los Estados Unidos (2000) ISBN 1-58322-054-2.
LaGuardia in Congress (1959) ISBN 0-8371-6434-6, ISBN 0-393-00488-0.
Marx in Soho: A Play on History (1999) ISBN 0-89608-593-7.
New Deal Thought (editor) (1965) ISBN 0-87220-685-8.
Original Zinn: Conversations on History and Politics (2006) Howard Zinn and David Barsamian.
Passionate Declarations: Essays on War and Justice (2003) ISBN 0-06-055767-2.
The Pentagon Papers Senator Gravel Edition. Vol. Five. Critical Essays. Boston. Beacon Press, 1972. 341p. plus 72p. of Index to Vol. I-IV of the Papers, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, editors.
A People's History of the Civil War: Struggles for the Meaning of Freedom by David Williams, Howard Zinn (Series Editor) (2005) ISBN 1-59558-018-2.
A People's History of the United States: 1492 – Present (1980), revised (1995)(1998)(1999)(2003) ISBN 0-06-052837-0.
A People's History of the United States: Teaching Edition Abridged (2003 updated) ISBN 1-56584-826-8.
A People's History of the United States: The Civil War to the Present Kathy Emery Ellen Reeves Howard Zinn (2003 teaching edition) ISBN 1-56584-725-3.
A People's History of the United States: The Wall Charts by Howard Zinn and George Kirschner (1995) ISBN 1-56584-171-9.
A People's History of American Empire (2008) by Howard Zinn, Mike Konopacki and Paul Buhle. ISBN 978-0805087444.
The People Speak: American Voices, Some Famous, Some Little Known (2004) ISBN 0-06-057826-2.
Playbook by Maxine Klein, Lydia Sargent and Howard Zinn (1986) ISBN 0-89608-309-8.
The Politics of History (1970) (2nd edition 1990) ISBN 0-252-06122-5.
Postwar America: 1945 – 1971 (1973) ISBN 0-89608-678-X.
A Power Governments Cannot Suppress (2006) ISBN 978-0872864757.
The Power of Nonviolence: Writings by Advocates of Peace Editor (2002) ISBN 0-8070-1407-9.
SNCC: The New Abolitionists (1964) ISBN 0-89608-679-8.
The Southern Mystique (1962) ISBN 0-89608-680-1.
Terrorism and War (2002) ISBN 1-58322-493-9 (interviews, Anthony Arnove (Ed.)).
The Twentieth Century: A People's History (2003) ISBN 0-06-053034-0.
Three Strikes: Miners, Musicians, Salesgirls, and the Fighting Spirit of Labor's Last Century (Dana Frank, Robin Kelley, and Howard Zinn) (2002) ISBN 0-8070-5013-X.
Vietnam: The Logic of Withdrawal (1967) ISBN 0-89608-681-X.
Voices of a People’s History of the United States (with Anthony Arnove, 2004) ISBN 1-58322-647-8.
You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train: A Personal History of Our Times (1994) ISBN 0-8070-7127-7.
A Young People's History of the United States, adapted from the original text by Rebecca Stefoff; illustrated and updated through 2006, with new introduction and afterword by Howard Zinn; two volumes, Seven Stories Press, New York, 2007.
Vol. 1: Columbus to the Spanish-American War. ISBN 978-1-58322-759-6.
Vol. 2: Class Struggle to the War on Terror. ISBN 978-1-58322-760-2.
The Zinn Reader: Writings on Disobedience and Democracy (1997) ISBN 1-888363-54-1.
A very important line from the article.

"In a 1998 interview with The Associated Press, Zinn acknowledged he was not trying to write an objective history, or a complete one."

Revisionist historians are not heroes or patriots.

History is made of events that are good and events that are evil. A historian's role is to record and teach history as it happened. To deviate from the facts and insert information based on personal opinion is practically criminal in my mind. It does a diservice to future generations by tampering with the facts.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
A very important line from the article.

"In a 1998 interview with The Associated Press, Zinn acknowledged he was not trying to write an objective history, or a complete one."

Revisionist historians are not heroes or patriots.

Agreed. Seems to me that he was possibly so "open-minded" that his brains fell out.
“Objectivity is impossible,” pop historian Howard Zinn once remarked, “and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of a social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”

Maoist China was “the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people’s government, independent of outside control.”


“Around 1776, certain important people in the English colonies … found that by creating a nation, a symbol, a legal unity called the United States, they could take over land, profits, and political power from the favorites of the British Empire.”
The Loss of Zinn is very sad. He was very inspiring and insightful with a persepective on events that is not comon among todays writers. I would venture to say that most of those who posted have never read him or know much about him other then the slander of the Right Wing Media. They hated him cause he exposed their lies.

He served in the Air Force during WW2 and it was after that he began to learn about the consequences of dropping those bombs, most were justified in war, but he realized some weren't.

As a teacher he was an early activist in the Civil Rights Movement then the anti Vietnam War as well as all other lies and acts of aggression by our government. Always a spokesman for the everyday people and conscience of the country he was a constant
thorn in the side of the liars and Masters of War and thievery.

He told the story of America through the eyes of the everyday people, not the Generals and Capitalists but those who did the work and paid the price in his classic, "A People's History Of the United States." I highly recommend it.

He also has a good DVD "You Can't Be Nuteral On A Moving Train."
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Interventor


Howard Zinn [quote]Maoist China was “the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people’s government, independent of outside control.”

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Yes, China was able to control it's own destiney instead of being a colony of the west.

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interventor:

(Howard Zinn) “Around 1776, certain important people in the English colonies … found that by creating a nation, a symbol, a legal unity called the United States, they could take over land, profits, and political power from the favorites of the British Empire.”

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes, and it's exactly what they did.
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
I didn't see Nobel Preace Prize in that long list of awards.


"Preace Prize?" Is that a prize for peaceful preachers?


"quote:
He also has a good DVD "You Can't Be Nuteral On A Moving Train."


Nuteral? Isn't that a procedure for your dog or cat?


Does that mean I don't get a Nobel Spelling prize?


No it means you got some of your own stuff back. You posted the following:

"Nuteral? Isn't that a procedure for your dog or cat?"

I was just giving you trouble for the same kind of stuff you were gigging Pogo on!
Last edited by beternU
quote:
Originally posted by Elvis Wearing a Bra on Head:
quote:
Originally posted by Tenn on my mind:
If Bruce Springsteen and Ben Affleck think he's great, he's great. Whenever I want really incisive opinion, I go to Bruce and Ben. Loose, left wing nuts.


Whetever be their political stance, I hardly value the opinion of an overrated rocker and a so-so actor to inform me.


I don't agree politically with him...but the Boss has never been overrated...

That said, I don't know if I'd go as far as to call him a hero, but the aspect of Zinn's teaching/writing I do find appealing was that he would teach young people to question their history teachers and US government supremacy.

He was a leftist, but by most accounts a leftist that was a somewhat reasoned, intelligent one...as opposed to the leftist who mindlessly spews talking points.
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!


I started to post this last night but I didn't want to ruin the sleep of the communist/lib posters. Wink


Since I poated the material you are quoting early this morning, I have to wonder how you might have started to post it last night. Are you psychic? Or maybe just psycho?
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!


I started to post this last night but I didn't want to ruin the sleep of the communist/lib posters. Wink


Since I poated the material you are quoting early this morning, I have to wonder how you might have started to post it last night. Are you psychic? Or maybe just psycho?



Are you that dumb? The news came out late last night. People don't die at your convenience. But thanks for "poating" it anyway. Big Grin
Interventor:


"Howard Zinn, Maoist China was “the closest thing, in the long history of that ancient country, to a people’s government, independent of outside control.”

Pogo:

Yes, China was able to control it's own destiney instead of being a colony of the west.

Yes, while murdering 100 million chinese, raping hundreds of prepubescent girls, annexing Tibet as a colony, and installing slave labor camps.

The Nationalist acted badly in Taiwan, but developed a true democracy, without becoming a colony.

_________________________________________________________________

interventor:

(Howard Zinn) “Around 1776, certain important people in the English colonies … found that by creating a nation, a symbol, a legal unity called the United States, they could take over land, profits, and political power from the favorites of the British Empire.”

_______________________________________________________
Pogo:

"Yes, and it's exactly what they did."

No, a despotic non-english king attempted to destroy their rights as Englishmen. Members of Parliament such as John Locke agreed. You hew the Marxist line to max.
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!


I started to post this last night but I didn't want to ruin the sleep of the communist/lib posters. Wink


Since I poated the material you are quoting early this morning, I have to wonder how you might have started to post it last night. Are you psychic? Or maybe just psycho?



Are you that dumb? The news came out late last night. People don't die at your convenience. But thanks for "poating" it anyway. Big Grin


You are the dumb one. In your post, "this" could have referred to nothing other than what you quoted immediately above from my post, which was "Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!"

You obviously would not have posted THAT, but nevertheless it was the obvious antecedent of your "this." Clumsy of you, but that is how your post literally is interpreted. Be more careful to say just what you mean.
quote:
Originally posted by elinterventor01:
No, a despotic non-english king attempted to destroy their rights as Englishmen. Members of Parliament such as John Locke agreed. You hew the Marxist line to max.


Well, there's a few problems with your argument. King George III was not a despot. In fact, he had limited power ruling in a constitutional monarchy, far from the definition of a despot, who rules with absolute political power. Many of the demands that Parliament made on the colonies after the Seven Years' War were reasonable, but due to the effects of salutary neglect, where they allowed the various colonies to develop their own political identities, they underestimated the negative effects such measures as the Stamp Act and the Townsend Acts would have.

Also, George III was as English as Victoria and Elizabeth. True, he was a member of the Hanoverian house, but he was born in London.

As far as John Locke, if you are referring to the Enlightenment philosopher, he was never a member of Parliament and had been dead since 1704.

All that being said, Zinn's historiography meshes with Charles Beard and the Progressives of the early twentieth century, a view that has been refuted by historians such as Forrest McDonald. His view that “...certain important people in the English colonies...found that by creating a nation, a symbol, a legal unity called the United States, they could take over land, profits, and political power from the favorites of the British Empire,” ignores the fact that many of the leading citizens, such as John Adams, George Washington and especially Benjamin Franklin, resisted the idea of independence almost up until the last moment.

Did Zinn lean to the left? Most definitely. Marxist? Yep. Important? Yes, because he did promote history "from the ground up." True, this viewpoint can be, and has been, co-opted by those of a Marxist bent (see Georges Lefebvre's views on the French Revolution), it does bring to the party the stories of those who had been silent until then, such as women, Native Americans and slaves. Is he a "hero?" No, and neither should any other historian be viewed as such. They are flawed men and women whose arguments, no matter how sound they may seem to be, can always be countered.
Last edited by moelarrycheez
Zinn gave a peoples perspective and reminded us that we the people are the country, not the government and governments were "institued by men" to "secure basic rights."

He wrote of the costs of war on our society and want it meant to us to wage wars as well as to the victims of these wars and they were for profits.

He may have been opioniated but he was accurate and brought to light stories of America's sins we would not be proud of and we base our current wars on lies of the past and present.
Last edited by Pogo142
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
I didn't see Nobel Preace Prize in that long list of awards.


"Preace Prize?" Is that a prize for peaceful preachers?


"quote:
He also has a good DVD "You Can't Be Nuteral On A Moving Train."


Nuteral? Isn't that a procedure for your dog or cat?


Does that mean I don't get a Nobel Spelling prize?


No it means you got some of your own stuff back. You posted the following:

"Nuteral? Isn't that a procedure for your dog or cat?"

I was just giving you trouble for the same kind of stuff you were gigging Pogo on!


Hey, I can take it. You libs stick together to point out every spelling mistake, so can I. Normally I prefer to stick to the issues.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!


I started to post this last night but I didn't want to ruin the sleep of the communist/lib posters. Wink


Since I poated the material you are quoting early this morning, I have to wonder how you might have started to post it last night. Are you psychic? Or maybe just psycho?



Are you that dumb? The news came out late last night. People don't die at your convenience. But thanks for "poating" it anyway. Big Grin


You are the dumb one. In your post, "this" could have referred to nothing other than what you quoted immediately above from my post, which was "Zinn was brilliant, incisive and right on the mark most of the time!"

You obviously would not have posted THAT, but nevertheless it was the obvious antecedent of your "this." Clumsy of you, but that is how your post literally is interpreted. Be more careful to say just what you mean.


You're right. I would never been stupid enough to say those things about him. Fortunately for the communist/libs, they have you. The king of stupid. Razzer
quote:
He may have been opioniated but he was accurate and brought to light stories of America's sins we would not be proud of and we base our current wars on lies of the past and present.


Historians who are accurate are praised by their peers. Historians who are revisionists are harshly criticized.

Revisionism is a very dangerous issue when it comes to the study of history. Zinn had no problems twisting the events of the past to reflect his own personal views. That's why he is only respected by the far left who wishes he was right, not actual historians who knows he's full of BS.
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NashBama:

[quote]Historians who are accurate are praised by their peers. Historians who are revisionists are harshly criticized.

Revisionism is a very dangerous issue when it comes to the study of history. Zinn had no problems twisting the events of the past to reflect his own personal views. That's why he is only respected by the far left who wishes he was right, not actual historians who knows he's full of BS.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Howard Zinn was a collage professor and accredited Historian. Where did you read he is not "praised" and who said it?

When he did interject his opinion it is seperate then the incident itself, and who's perspective was that of the least important in societie's eyes and least written about.

He is criticized for being Passoinate about Peace and history being other then war. Countries are run by people and Zinn wrote about them all.

Lots of people, artists, writers, who are not appreacated at the time but are vindicated by the future.

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