Abortion?

quote:

Originally posted by wwbowling:
Why should there be a federal abortion law? Why should abortion be an ISSUE in a presidential election? And why would you permit the media and special interest groups, SPIN, your decision-making factors to abortion, when considering someone for the presidency of the United States of America?

Abortion is something that the far right bring up every election AND forget about it the rest of the time.Same thing with gay's!! I think is just more Politics than the issue itself.

I consider myself more right than left and I NEVER forget about abortion. Abortion is murder.

quote:

Originally posted by FatNoMo:
I consider myself more right than left and I NEVER forget about abortion. Abortion is murder.

Yep, That is what very scary people on the right wing say. its funny,that you can't find that in the bible that Abortion is murder.Did you learn this from Pat or fat man Jerry the clown Falwell. I bet you're a big fan of the 007 club

I'am more worried about our troops getting murder,than I'am abortion!

quote:

Originally posted by pba:

quote:

Originally posted by FatNoMo:
I consider myself more right than left and I NEVER forget about abortion. Abortion is murder.

Yep, That is what very scary people on the right wing say. its funny,that you can't find that in the bible that Abortion is murder.Did you learn this from Pat or fat man Jerry the clown Falwell. I bet you're a big fan of the 007 club

I'am more worried about our troops getting murder,than I'am abortion!

What's the difference ?
Either way you end up with a dead person.

Actually, one situation ends up with a dead person. The other ends up with a cellular structure that is no longer generative.

Isn't a person a conglomeration of cellular structures?

quote:

Originally posted by Ubermensch:
Isn't a person a conglomeration of cellular structures?

Yes, but they are more than that as they are already functioning persons. That is to say, they are generative on their own, and they are not parasitic.

I got a better question for those of you who oppose choice. Notice I didn't say abortion, as I don't know of anyone who "wants" abortion.
Just using the language of "pro abortion" is ludicrus, and a right wing fear tactic.

Why do you think that you, the government, Jerry Falwell, or some church for that matter, should have a say in what some woman should do with her own body? What gives you the right to stick your nose in other peoples business?

Yes, I know that was 2 questions.

If you oppose abortion here is the non-hypricitical thing to do:
> Offer any woman who is considering an abortion a legal contract. YOu will pay all the cost for the girl to get medical care associated with her pregancy.
> In addition, the contract will let you have the baby after birth to raise as your own, with no futher responsability of the birth mother.

If you aren't willing to do the above, then keep your nose out of their business. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

3100 dead servicemen I wonder how many dead babies this year. I am sorry I don't know if not killing someone is in the Bible or Koran or Torah but I am going to go out on a limb and say it is wrong. I don't need the 007 club for that. I am pro choice. If a woman doesn't want kids she has the choice to not have sex. Why do you have to adopt a kid to have your nose in this we are not discussing any particular person. Why should people who take responsible actions be silenced? Scary people believe in not killing a baby? I bet you **** your pants every time you watch Miami Vice reruns.

quote:

Originally posted by dkn:
3100 dead servicemen I wonder how many dead babies this year. I am sorry I don't know if not killing someone is in the Bible or Koran or Torah but I am going to go out on a limb and say it is wrong. I don't need the 007 club for that. I am pro choice. If a woman doesn't want kids she has the choice to not have sex. Why do you have to adopt a kid to have your nose in this we are not discussing any particular person. Why should people who take responsible actions be silenced? Scary people believe in not killing a baby? I bet you **** your pants every time you watch Miami Vice reruns.

I apologize, but your thoughts aren't clear here. I'm particularly having trouble understanding what you're trying to say when you speak of the following:

"Why do you have to adopt a kid to have your nose in this we are not discussing any particular person. Why should people who take responsible actions be silenced? Scary people believe in not killing a baby? I bet you **** your pants every time you watch Miami Vice reruns."

I'm not sure where adoptions were brought up, nor any particular people. And the Miami Vice reference is not clear to me for the purposes of this discussion. Please clarify your points so that other readers can understand and respond.

We already do that, excelman, in two different ways.
The first is called adoption. Some good friends of mine did this exact thing. They prayed for years for a baby and finally were put in touch with a young lady willing to give up her baby instead of killing it.

The second way is called welfare.

Abortion is a huge emotional subject for most women, regardless of which side they are on. Do I think morality can be legislated? No. Do I think abortion used as birth control is morally wrong. Yep. I think it says something about our society when an unplanned child is an inconvenience and disposable. There are a lot of worse things that can happen to a woman or man than to have a baby. Will their lives be changed? Yes, of course. But who's life always stays the same?- and sometimes challenges like unplanned pregnancies teach us to grow up and realize there is more to life than the almighty ME.

I think people who find abortions morally wrong shouldn't have them.

Q. Why Should We Value Life?
A. "Know that the LORD Himself is God; it is He who has made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people and the sheep of His pasture" (Psalm 100:3, NASV).

"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the One who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone . . .'" (Isaiah 44:24, NASV).

"But now, O LORD, Thou art our Father, we are the clay, and Thou our potter; and all of us are the work of Thy hand" (Isaiah 64:8, NASV).

Q. Who Is the Creator of the Preborn?
A. "For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them" (Psalm 139:13-16, NKJV).

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations" (Jeremiah 1:5, NIV).

Q. How Is God Concerned With the Preborn?
A. But when He who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through His grace . . ." (Galatians 1:15, RSV).

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for giving us through Christ every possible spiritual benefit as citizens of heaven! For consider what he has done—before the foundation of the world He chose us to become, in Christ, His holy and blameless children living within His constant care" (Ephesians 1:3-4, PME).

Q. Are the Preborn Human Beings?
A. "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit…[saying] ‘As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy'" (Luke 1:41, 44, NIV).

The Lord Jesus Christ began his incarnation as an embryo, growing into a fetus, infant, child, teenager, and adult: "While they were there, the time came for the baby to born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son" (Luke 2:6-7, NIV).

Q. Who Is Responsible for Life and Death?
A. Then God spoke all these words, saying . . . 'You shall not murder'" (Exodus 20:1, 13, NASV).

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live" (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).

Q. Are Humans Permitted to Take Life Before Birth?
A. "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise" (Exodus 21:22-25, NIV).

Q. Should a Child Conceived as a Result of Rape or Incest Be Aborted?
A. "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin" (Deuteronomy 24:16, NKJV).

Q. Should a Child Who Might Be Born Deformed or Disabled Be Aborted?
A. "So the LORD said to him, 'Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?'" (Exodus 4:11, NKJV).

"Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'He has no hands?' Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?' This is what the LORD says—the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question Me about My children, or give Me orders about the work of My hands?" (Isaiah 45:9-11, NIV).

"Yet, to shame the wise, God has chosen what the world counts folly, and to shame what is strong, God has chosen what the world counts weakness" (1 Corinthians 1:27, NIV).

Q. How Should A Woman View Her Body and the Preborn Life Growing in Her Womb?
A. "Behold, children are a gift of the LORD; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3, NASV).

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20, NKJV).

Q. Does God Forgive Those Who Have Had Abortions?
A. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace . . ." (Ephesians 1:7, NKJV).

"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins" (Isaiah 43:25, NASV).

P.S. And I don't care much for Jerry or Pat.

quote:

If you oppose abortion here is the non-hypricitical thing to do:
> Offer any woman who is considering an abortion a legal contract. YOu will pay all the cost for the girl to get medical care associated with her pregancy.
> In addition, the contract will let you have the baby after birth to raise as your own, with no futher responsability of the birth mother

quote:

Originally posted by mandomama:
There are a lot of worse things that can happen to a woman or man than to have a baby.

Unforunately, there aren't many worse things that can happen to a child than to be the child of parents who aren't mentally (ie. mature enough) or financially able to care for that child in a responsible manner.

I can think of one thing worse.

You're right! Being raised in an orphanage might be worse.

I respectfully disagree with you, e. There is the idea that children must be born into a home more than capable of fulfilling every material need of a child. The parents must both be college educated, secure in their jobs, emotionally mature enough to let their baby sail through life. Life is more than a bunch of stuff and happily ever after. I have no illusions that if you "just keep your baby, everything will work out alright."

I was an unmarried 19 year old pregnant kid, many years ago. I was encouraged by the baby's father's family and other well meaning friends to end my pregnancy. I had enough sense to realize that I was in that particular situation because of the choices I had made- very immature and selfish ones. I could have taken the easy way out (though I would not call abortion *easy*), but I chose to have my baby. Giving birth didn't just give me a new baby. It brought so much more into my life. I learned to think about others more than myself, I learned about responsibility, I learned about planning ahead, thinking of mine and my daughter's future. I learned how to be a grown up. Was I perfect? No! There are so many things I would do differently now that I'm older. But I did try my best., and that is all anyone can ask.

Yes, terrible things happen to children in our world. They happen to kids that were planned and to the "accidents", too. Just because life is hard, should we decide who gets a chance to live?

I mentor young, single moms and moms-to-be through our church outreach. It is a joy to watch these young women grow up and mature. The most important thing they need is love. Everything else follows this.


Like I said, I think this is a moral issue. I would never judge a woman because of her choice. I would mourn for her, though. Not just for the baby, but because of what she could have experienced and learned by doing something more noble and grand than only thinking of herself.

quote:

Originally posted by wwbowling:
Why should there be a federal abortion law? Why should abortion be an ISSUE in a presidential election? And why would you permit the media and special interest groups, SPIN, your decision-making factors to abortion, when considering someone for the presidency of the United States of America?

yah, why?

Because a lot of not very smart people will vote for anyone who opposed abortion, and they will run to the polls draging their friends and fellow numbskuls with them, only to be disappointed that the issue is not gone in the next session. NOT REALIZING THAT THE ONLY WAY TO STOP ABORTION IS TO NOT HAVE ONE.

I'm not gonna give an opinion.

But it does seem odd that people that are pro-choice tend to be anti-death penalty. Just strikes me as odd.

But it does seem odd that people that are pro-choice tend to be anti-death penalty. Just strikes me as odd.[/QUOTE]

Another thing that I find odd is that most anti-abortion people are opposed to teaching sex education in school. They all want this idiotic abstinence crap.

quote:

Originally posted by David L.:
But it does seem odd that people that are pro-choice tend to be anti-death penalty. Just strikes me as odd.

Another thing that I find odd is that most anti-abortion people are opposed to teaching sex education in school. They all want this idiotic abstinence crap.[/QUOTE]

They also don't like contriception to the point that some drug stores won't dispense birth control pills.
A new something to protest for them , is the vaccine for pre-teen girls to prevent cancer. I understand some religeous groups oppose that.

I think they believe that sex was introduced to the american youth in 1967 by the communist to ruin our morals.

quote:

Originally posted by David L.:
But it does seem odd that people that are pro-choice tend to be anti-death penalty. Just strikes me as odd.

Another thing that I find odd is that most anti-abortion people are opposed to teaching sex education in school. They all want this idiotic abstinence crap.[/QUOTE]

Technically speaking, for ME, I am against abortion, but I would have to side wiith the Pro-Choice group because what someone else does only effects THEM when they deal with God on Judgement day.

I AM for the death penalt though, AND for teaching sex education/birth control in school..

I absolutely HATE the fact of people using abortion AS birth control... Don't they know they can ACTUALLY use Birth Control Methods???

Thank you FatNoMo for the scripture you quoted. It answered a question that I have had for 5 years now. I was raised pro-life and I stand by that. I am an adopted child and I thank God everyday that my birth mother didn't abort me just because she was unmarried and poor. I myself was a single mother who chose to have my son even though I was not financially stable.

When I married my husband we got pregnant right away with a little girl. Life was great until 17 weeks into the pregnancy I got the dreaded call that my tests came back positive for birth defects. It was another 5 weeks before I could see a specialist for an ultrasound and amnio test. As I watched the screen I could see my little girl moving around. There was no question that she was a "person". They told me right then her organs were on the outside of her body, she had brain damage and many other physical anomalies. I had 2 weeks to decide whether or not to abort. I was told it would be a partial birth abortion. For some I'm sure it would be an easy choice but for me it was not. Who am I to take a life that God has placed in my care? I decided to keep going with the pregnancy. I felt that if she was meant to die then it would be in God's hands not mine. She was born very premature and I almost died during the birth. She was the most pitiful looking little baby but she was still beautiful to me. She lived for 3 days and the docs told me I needed to take her off life support because she would not live much longer and that she was in pain. Again I faced the decision to end my child's life. I cried and prayed and decided that I had to do what no parent ever wants to do. I cried all the way from the chapel begging God to take her without me having to do it. When I got to her side, I told the doctor I needed to say my good byes. I touched her arm and told her that I loved her and I would see her again some day. As I opened my mouth to tell the doc to turn everything off the most amazing miracle happened. God took her right then without me ever saying a word. I live with the peace that He took her when He was ready.

The question I have had for the last 5 years is if it happened again what would I do? Should I go ahead and have the abortion. I could never find a scripture that answered that for me. Thank you for bringing it to light.

quote:

Originally posted by wwbowling:
Why should there be a federal abortion law? Why should abortion be an ISSUE in a presidential election? And why would you permit the media and special interest groups, SPIN, your decision-making factors to abortion, when considering someone for the presidency of the United States of America?

It shouldn't be, but when you have a President PROMISING to do something about it when from the very beginning KNEW that he couldn't... then it is a factor.

No one told ANYONE running for election to do anything about it.

Personally speaking, I wish there WAS a way to do something, but I am also realistic enough to know there is not.

I am certany pro choice, not because I am for abortion but because I dont appreciate someone making that decision for me. What really tics me off is the fact that certain groups use my statement to say I am against religion. I say those people should judge themselves, I will let GOD be the only one to judge me. some may not like me, but I am someone I would be proud to know.

quote:

Originally posted by navywife:
Thank you FatNoMo for the scripture you quoted. It answered a question that I have had for 5 years now. I was raised pro-life and I stand by that. I am an adopted child and I thank God everyday that my birth mother didn't abort me just because she was unmarried and poor. I myself was a single mother who chose to have my son even though I was not financially stable.

When I married my husband we got pregnant right away with a little girl. Life was great until 17 weeks into the pregnancy I got the dreaded call that my tests came back positive for birth defects. It was another 5 weeks before I could see a specialist for an ultrasound and amnio test. As I watched the screen I could see my little girl moving around. There was no question that she was a "person". They told me right then her organs were on the outside of her body, she had brain damage and many other physical anomalies. I had 2 weeks to decide whether or not to abort. I was told it would be a partial birth abortion. For some I'm sure it would be an easy choice but for me it was not. Who am I to take a life that God has placed in my care? I decided to keep going with the pregnancy. I felt that if she was meant to die then it would be in God's hands not mine. She was born very premature and I almost died during the birth. She was the most pitiful looking little baby but she was still beautiful to me. She lived for 3 days and the docs told me I needed to take her off life support because she would not live much longer and that she was in pain. Again I faced the decision to end my child's life. I cried and prayed and decided that I had to do what no parent ever wants to do. I cried all the way from the chapel begging God to take her without me having to do it. When I got to her side, I told the doctor I needed to say my good byes. I touched her arm and told her that I loved her and I would see her again some day. As I opened my mouth to tell the doc to turn everything off the most amazing miracle happened. God took her right then without me ever saying a word. I live with the peace that He took her when He was ready.

The question I have had for the last 5 years is if it happened again what would I do? Should I go ahead and have the abortion. I could never find a scripture that answered that for me. Thank you for bringing it to light.

Wow, your story brought tears to my eyes, and gave me goose bumps. I am so very sorry that happened to you.... God knew what to do and when to do it....God is amazing, and if you get prognant again, God will 'nudge' you into the right direction.

And if you were to get pregnant again, this probably would not happen again, chances are in favor of it not happening.

God Bless you for such a beautiful heart!!!

quote:

Originally posted by unclegus:
I am certany pro choice, not because I am for abortion but because I dont appreciate someone making that decision for me. What really tics me off is the fact that certain groups use my statement to say I am against religion. I say those people should judge themselves, I will let GOD be the only one to judge me. some may not like me, but I am someone I would be proud to know.

I agree with you!

quote:

Another thing that I find odd is that most anti-abortion people are opposed to teaching sex education in school. They all want this idiotic abstinence crap.

Speaking for myself, I am for sex education in school, but all types-birth control and abstinen ce education. Having sex as teenagers needs to be explained as more than just a physical act of pleasure. It affects you emotionally, as well. Most teens are not emotionally mature enough to handle all that sex brings with it. I'm speaking not just of feelings, but babies, diseases, reputations,etc.

I cannot understand how educated, intelligent people can use the banner of religion to promote their own agendas at the health risk if women. As soon as our OBGYN begins giving the HPV vaccine shot to patients, my husband, who is a physician, told me to sign up our daughters. It is ridiculous to assume that because they are "vaccinated" they will feel free to go out and screw anybody that comes along. Any person that has this sort of attitude will act in an irresponsible manner regardless of protection. He/She has problems that go far beyond a small vaccine. And the vaccine is not 100% effective, anyway, more like ~70% of the HPV virus that causes cervical cancer. It is still a good thing that all females should consider!

To sum up what I think of people who use the slippery slope card, I think they live in fear and ignorance. This can be applied to both ends of the political spectrum.

To navywife,

I am so sorry for your loss. And I am thanksful your prayer was answered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by unclegus:
I am certany pro choice, not because I am for abortion but because I dont appreciate someone making that decision for me. What really tics me off is the fact that certain groups use my statement to say I am against religion. I say those people should judge themselves, I will let GOD be the only one to judge me. some may not like me, but I am someone I would be proud to know.

Well said!!!

NavyWife, these lyrics are for you. May God bless your life. (Thank you for affirming my decision to post those scripture verses. I knew it would turn some folks off, but if it helped one person it was worth it.)


VISITOR FROM HEAVEN - 1993
by Twila Paris

A visitor from Heaven
If only for a while
A gift of love to be returned
We think of you and smile

A visitor from Heaven
Accompanied by grace
Reminding of a better love
And of a better place

With aching hearts and empty arms
We send you with a name
It hurts so much to let you go
But we’re so glad you came
We’re so glad you came

A visitor from Heaven
If only for a day
We thank Him for the time He gave
And now it’s time to say
We trust you to the Father’s love
And to His tender care
Held in the everlasting arms
And we’re so glad you’re there
We’re so glad you’re there

With breaking hearts and open hands
We send you with a name
It hurts so much to let you go
But we’re so glad you came
We’re so glad you came

I started this topic, to discern why abortion is a topic that should decide who holds the office of presidency. You'all, have thoroughly answered my question. It is not a reason for selecting a presidential candidate of any other elected official. IT IS A MEANS BY WHICH POLITICAL STRATEGIST PUSH VOTERS AND NON-VOTERS, INTO A FRENZY TO WHICH THEY NO LONGER THINK LOGICALLY AND MAKE THEM CHOOSE A SIDE WHICH THEY HAVE ALREADY DIRECTED! If any of you do not believe me, go back to page 1 where I asked the questions and follow the flow of emotions to this point. THEN, ask yourself these questions:
1. Would I go to Jesus Christ and ask him for money when he was akin to a gypsy wondering without even food, much less cash?
2. Would I ask a woman dying of AIDS to have unprotected sex with me?
3. Would I pay a convicted sex offender of children to babysit my 2 year old son?
4. Would I try to squeeze blood from a turnip?
5. ****WOULD I ASK A POLITICIAN FOR MORAL AND ETHICAL SUPPORT ON A QUESTION WHICH ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER?

So, getting back to my original question. The answer is, that anyone of you who permits abortion to be a pertinent position or important factor in a political campaign for the presidency is a fool. And you should let the "pollers" know that you are not interested in permitting this to be an issue, because in doing so, you are only submitting yourself to be controlled by a political strategist, playing with the "spin", to make you into his puppet.

Now, having said that, is abortion a serious issue? Yes it is! Should people take positions on it and fight for what they believe in? Without a doubt! But is this forum the place to debate it? Absolutely not! Have you read some of the disrespectful, outlandish, and rude comments made here? This turned into a debate and that was exactly what I did not want, so I apologize and if someone can cancel this one...do it!