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Alabama Civil Court of Appeals issued an opinion last week that said attorney's can lie under oath as long as it is part of a trial. It goes on to say this is "...long standing Alabama law...."

http://www.alabamaappellatewat...ads/file/2080742.PDF
"The first principle of a free society is an untrammeled flow of words in an open forum."
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The attorneys in this case intentionally lied that was basis for appeal.

It does say

"It cannot be discounted that perjury and fabricated evidence should not be encouraged, but the law holds that those evils 'can and should be exposed at trial, and the legal system encourages and expects litigants to root them out as early as possible...." id 20.

Drees did not raise in his responses to Kile's or Vincent's motions to dismiss any argument that the absolute judicial privilege is subject to such an exception, so we will not address that contention, except to state that it appears contrary to longstanding Alabama law, "recognizing that false statements uttered by counsel during the course of judicial proceedings are absolutely privileged so long as they are relevant to the subject inquiry" id 21, 22.

Further, "An attorney at law is absolutely privileged to publish defamatory matter concerning another in communications preliminary to a proposed judicial proceeding, or in the institution of, or during the course and as a part of, a judicial proceeding in which he participates as counsel, if it has some relation to the proceeding." id 23.
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
Alabama Civil Court of Appeals issued an opinion last week that said attorney's can lie under oath as long as it is part of a trial. It goes on to say this is "...long standing Alabama law...."

http://www.alabamaappellatewat...ads/file/2080742.PDF


That's not what the opinion said. Attorneys normally would not be under oath as part of the litigation. The privilege exists to protect attorneys from having to fend off all sorts of libel/slander/defamation suits for statements made during litigation. This case is an unusual situation where one of the parties is an attorney. The claim is basically, Kile (an attorney, but a party to the litigation), lied under oath and that Vincent (Kile's attorney) also lied as part of the litigation. Vincent enjoys absolute immunity because he is not under oath and is allowed to make defamatory statements as part of the litigation. Kile is acting merely as a party (and not wearing his attorney hat) and may have lied under oath. That happens everyday. And as the opinion pointed out, there is no civil remedy for perjury. Since he had no standing to bring a criminal action, he was out of luck. As already pointed out, there are rules of professional conduct that can bring serious consequences for intentionally lying to the court. It's just that this guy didn't get the money he was looking for.
Again with the using the arguement of the appeal to push an agenda. The opinion of the court said the due process rights were not violated. End of story -- doesn't matter what arguement the defendant used to get the appeal his arguement didn't hold water and he was shut down. The opinion of the court is what matters not the opinion of the defendant or his lawyers or other people's agendas. If you hate the justice system so much that you only find flaws in everything -- why do you continue to punish yourself? You never post the good stuff -- the mother that got custody or her kids or the victim that got justice or the family that got closure...You only seem to find the cases that appear on the surface to be shady to begin with and then claim injustice...just my opinion...and i'm sure it doesn't matter to you just like the court's actual opinion doesn't matter to you...but you have to realize that everything has good and bad and it isn't perfect but it does work...

I expected you to be all over the internet with the father from Brazil that got his son back...that's a good case that the justice system worked...but it didn't have an agenda I guess...
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
For the Brazil situation see the forum posts about that here.

http://forums.timesdaily.com/e...27316/m/32810594/p/2

That situation should NOT have taken five years. If the media have not been involved, and if the U.S. Senate had NOT placed a hold on 2.7 BILLION dollars of trade money to Brazil, the outcome may have been different.


You should really seek counseling. You can't see the good in anything can you? He got his son back. Yes it was a battle, but that does happen in divorces. But your father won. Why can't you just be happy with it and not have to slam all the reasons and hows and whys and negate the good in it and be happy for the man and the fact that the world has gotten to see the father's point of view? There was nothing that said the mother wouldn't have gotten custody of the son anyway -- international custody does happen and the courts do tend to lean toward the mother regardless of the country. At this point with the mother dad any other assumptions would be mostly hearsay and his word against hers without her here to defend herself. While I agree that 5 years is a long time -- he was rewarded...come on man -- see a silver lining for me...

Lawguy that is pretty good...
Oh, I see the good in it. I am real happy for him. But really should any FIT parent have to wait FIVE years for their child?

Should any FIT parent have to expend millions of dollars to have their child returned?

I can only assume you profit off the legal system.

Certainly our system does correct injustices sometimes, but typically, it is more about who can expend the most money, who knows the judge, etc. and it has nothing to do with the best interests of the child.

As a FIT parent I have personally experienced being kept from my child. It wasn't five years, but long enough to have knowledge of how two wrongs do not make a right. Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.
Last edited by Nurturing Father
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:

Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.


Please don't presume to know what I have or have not been through. And the standard you are quoting is for termination of parental rights. You are intelligent enough about the law to know that there is a difference (whether you choose to admit it or not) between having limited custodial parenting time and having your parental rights permanently terminated. If you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.
quote:
f you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.


I agree completely. But most of the time its the women that file for divorce and in Alabama they get the kids 85% of the time.

You are intelligent enough to know that having limited custodial parenting time is like having your parental rights terminated, whether you will admit it or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
Oh, I see the good in it. I am real happy for him. But really should any FIT parent have to wait FIVE years for their child?

Should any FIT parent have to expend millions of dollars to have their child returned?

I can only assume you profit off the legal system.

Certainly our system does correct injustices sometimes, but typically, it is more about who can expend the most money, who knows the judge, etc. and it has nothing to do with the best interests of the child.

As a FIT parent I have personally experienced being kept from my child. It wasn't five years, but long enough to have knowledge of how two wrongs do not make a right. Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.


First, I don't benefit anything from the legal system.

Second, the law still rules regardless of finding of fitness that you cling too, but I don't disagree that a child should have access to both parents.

Third, I will remind you that you don't know me personally and you don't know what me or my family have been through. I know more about what you rant about than you would guess, but I don't let it rule my life or be my only purpose in life. Things happened - life goes on...life is what you make of it and apparently me and my family have fared well because there is no bitterness or regret or anger over any of what happened. I suggested counseling because it can be a very good thing in situations like this where all you focus on are the negative things that happen to you and when all you focus on are the negative or the agenda, you miss out on so much more that life has to offer you. You can judge me all you want. I've already been judged and I assure you, the finding was in my favor.

You continue to talk about being a FIT parent. Let me ask you, would you consider a "hoarder" or a "drug addict" or a "OCD" or other mental issues a "FIT" parent? Those are addictive behaviors and AT TIMES -- NOT ALL OF THE TIME -- BUT SOMETIMES, I see an addiction in your posts...and overly sensitive fixation on your topics and what you stump about and that is concerning. It makes me ask myself if you do this around your child during the time that you have her? Do you run down her mother to others in front of her? Do you give her a negative opinion of the court system and make her not have respect for authority or for our legal system etc? Do you impart that negativity to your child? While a court may not consider it UNFIT -- it should be a red flag for you to recognize this behavior as something you don't want to pass on to your daughter. Those behaviors would or could adversely affect your custody situation. You can be "fit" some of the time, but not be capable of being "fit" all of the time regardless of custody arrangement or divorce or whatever. However, just as LawGuy pointed out -- your rights have not been terminated -- limited by time due to the divorce -- your child can't be in two places at once and I would dare to say your ex is just a fit parent as you think you are as well -- so I hope you are thankful for the blessings that you do have. It is what it is...make the very best of it...make your daughter see what she has and don't let her look back and have issues because she believes your agenda is more important to you than she is.

Having an opinion and a conviction about something is wonderful but to have it be to the point of an obsession is never a good thing. Just my opinion...as someone that has been there and done that and been on both sides of the couch -- I am very entitled to state it.
Last edited by DixieChik
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
f you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.


I agree completely. But most of the time its the women that file for divorce and in Alabama they get the kids 85% of the time.

You are intelligent enough to know that having limited custodial parenting time is like having your parental rights terminated, whether you will admit it or not.


The fact that you see limited time as termination clearly shows you don't have a true grasp of the blessing that any time with your child is...it may be like it but you don't have to make it be like it...You make it what you want it to be...again, I am genuinely concerned about you...Intelligence is great, but common sense is a thousand times better...
quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
f you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.


I agree completely. But most of the time its the women that file for divorce and in Alabama they get the kids 85% of the time.

You are intelligent enough to know that having limited custodial parenting time is like having your parental rights terminated, whether you will admit it or not.


The fact that you see limited time as termination clearly shows you don't have a true grasp of the blessing that any time with your child is...it may be like it but you don't have to make it be like it...You make it what you want it to be...again, I am genuinely concerned about you...Intelligence is great, but common sense is a thousand times better...



quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
Oh, I see the good in it. I am real happy for him. But really should any FIT parent have to wait FIVE years for their child?

Should any FIT parent have to expend millions of dollars to have their child returned?

I can only assume you profit off the legal system.

Certainly our system does correct injustices sometimes, but typically, it is more about who can expend the most money, who knows the judge, etc. and it has nothing to do with the best interests of the child.

As a FIT parent I have personally experienced being kept from my child. It wasn't five years, but long enough to have knowledge of how two wrongs do not make a right. Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.


First, I don't benefit anything from the legal system.

Second, the law still rules regardless of finding of fitness that you cling too, but I don't disagree that a child should have access to both parents.

Third, I will remind you that you don't know me personally and you don't know what me or my family have been through. I know more about what you rant about than you would guess, but I don't let it rule my life or be my only purpose in life. Things happened - life goes on...life is what you make of it and apparently me and my family have fared well because there is no bitterness or regret or anger over any of what happened. I suggested counseling because it can be a very good thing in situations like this where all you focus on are the negative things that happen to you and when all you focus on are the negative or the agenda, you miss out on so much more that life has to offer you. You can judge me all you want. I've already been judged and I assure you, the finding was in my favor.

You continue to talk about being a FIT parent. Let me ask you, would you consider a "hoarder" or a "drug addict" or a "OCD" or other mental issues a "FIT" parent? Those are addictive behaviors and AT TIMES -- NOT ALL OF THE TIME -- BUT SOMETIMES, I see an addiction in your posts...and overly sensitive fixation on your topics and what you stump about and that is concerning. It makes me ask myself if you do this around your child during the time that you have her? Do you run down her mother to others in front of her? Do you give her a negative opinion of the court system and make her not have respect for authority or for our legal system etc? Do you impart that negativity to your child? While a court may not consider it UNFIT -- it should be a red flag for you to recognize this behavior as something you don't want to pass on to your daughter. Those behaviors would or could adversely affect your custody situation. You can be "fit" some of the time, but not be capable of being "fit" all of the time regardless of custody arrangement or divorce or whatever. However, just as LawGuy pointed out -- your rights have not been terminated -- limited by time due to the divorce -- your child can't be in two places at once and I would dare to say your ex is just a fit parent as you think you are as well -- so I hope you are thankful for the blessings that you do have. It is what it is...make the very best of it...make your daughter see what she has and don't let her look back and have issues because she believes your agenda is more important to you than she is.

Having an opinion and a conviction about something is wonderful but to have it be to the point of an obsession is never a good thing. Just my opinion...as someone that has been there and done that and been on both sides of the couch -- I am very entitled to state it.


+++

DC

You are assuming my narrowly focused forum posts means I do not cherish the good things in life or that these issues are talked about to my child. I DO NOT talk about adult issues to my children.

These issues are pointed out to educate other ADULTS that haven't a clue. It does NOT rule my life, but is part of my job.

You are on the attack or should I say defensive, and I should seek counseling? Wink
Last edited by Nurturing Father
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
f you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.


I agree completely. But most of the time its the women that file for divorce and in Alabama they get the kids 85% of the time.

You are intelligent enough to know that having limited custodial parenting time is like having your parental rights terminated, whether you will admit it or not.


The fact that you see limited time as termination clearly shows you don't have a true grasp of the blessing that any time with your child is...it may be like it but you don't have to make it be like it...You make it what you want it to be...again, I am genuinely concerned about you...Intelligence is great, but common sense is a thousand times better...



quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
Oh, I see the good in it. I am real happy for him. But really should any FIT parent have to wait FIVE years for their child?

Should any FIT parent have to expend millions of dollars to have their child returned?

I can only assume you profit off the legal system.

Certainly our system does correct injustices sometimes, but typically, it is more about who can expend the most money, who knows the judge, etc. and it has nothing to do with the best interests of the child.

As a FIT parent I have personally experienced being kept from my child. It wasn't five years, but long enough to have knowledge of how two wrongs do not make a right. Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.


First, I don't benefit anything from the legal system.

Second, the law still rules regardless of finding of fitness that you cling too, but I don't disagree that a child should have access to both parents.

Third, I will remind you that you don't know me personally and you don't know what me or my family have been through. I know more about what you rant about than you would guess, but I don't let it rule my life or be my only purpose in life. Things happened - life goes on...life is what you make of it and apparently me and my family have fared well because there is no bitterness or regret or anger over any of what happened. I suggested counseling because it can be a very good thing in situations like this where all you focus on are the negative things that happen to you and when all you focus on are the negative or the agenda, you miss out on so much more that life has to offer you. You can judge me all you want. I've already been judged and I assure you, the finding was in my favor.

You continue to talk about being a FIT parent. Let me ask you, would you consider a "hoarder" or a "drug addict" or a "OCD" or other mental issues a "FIT" parent? Those are addictive behaviors and AT TIMES -- NOT ALL OF THE TIME -- BUT SOMETIMES, I see an addiction in your posts...and overly sensitive fixation on your topics and what you stump about and that is concerning. It makes me ask myself if you do this around your child during the time that you have her? Do you run down her mother to others in front of her? Do you give her a negative opinion of the court system and make her not have respect for authority or for our legal system etc? Do you impart that negativity to your child? While a court may not consider it UNFIT -- it should be a red flag for you to recognize this behavior as something you don't want to pass on to your daughter. Those behaviors would or could adversely affect your custody situation. You can be "fit" some of the time, but not be capable of being "fit" all of the time regardless of custody arrangement or divorce or whatever. However, just as LawGuy pointed out -- your rights have not been terminated -- limited by time due to the divorce -- your child can't be in two places at once and I would dare to say your ex is just a fit parent as you think you are as well -- so I hope you are thankful for the blessings that you do have. It is what it is...make the very best of it...make your daughter see what she has and don't let her look back and have issues because she believes your agenda is more important to you than she is.

Having an opinion and a conviction about something is wonderful but to have it be to the point of an obsession is never a good thing. Just my opinion...as someone that has been there and done that and been on both sides of the couch -- I am very entitled to state it.


+++

DC

You are assuming my narrowly focused forum posts means I do not cherish the good things in life or that these issues are talked about to my child. I DO NOT talk about adult issues to my children.

These issues are pointed out to educate other ADULTS that haven't a clue. It does NOT rule my life, but is part of my job.

You are on the attack or should I say defensive, and I should seek counseling? Wink


That's right...deflect and make this about me...I openly admitted that I have sought out counseling and if I felt my life needed an outlet again I would do so in a heart beat...There is no shame in it -- and more people would benefit if they would try it. I know several counselors that I could refer you too that are wonderful at what they do...I hope that you will consider it for your child in the future as well...children of divorce and chaotic legal battles such as yours often don't realize or know what is their fault and what is the parents malfunction and counseling can help them address those issues...
quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
quote:
f you really want to get down to brass tacks, it would normally be in the childrens' best interest if the parents didn't get divorced. It's too easy to throw away the spouse then complain that you don't get enough time with the kids.


I agree completely. But most of the time its the women that file for divorce and in Alabama they get the kids 85% of the time.

You are intelligent enough to know that having limited custodial parenting time is like having your parental rights terminated, whether you will admit it or not.


The fact that you see limited time as termination clearly shows you don't have a true grasp of the blessing that any time with your child is...it may be like it but you don't have to make it be like it...You make it what you want it to be...again, I am genuinely concerned about you...Intelligence is great, but common sense is a thousand times better...



quote:
Originally posted by DixieChik:
quote:
Originally posted by Nurturing Father:
Oh, I see the good in it. I am real happy for him. But really should any FIT parent have to wait FIVE years for their child?

Should any FIT parent have to expend millions of dollars to have their child returned?

I can only assume you profit off the legal system.

Certainly our system does correct injustices sometimes, but typically, it is more about who can expend the most money, who knows the judge, etc. and it has nothing to do with the best interests of the child.

As a FIT parent I have personally experienced being kept from my child. It wasn't five years, but long enough to have knowledge of how two wrongs do not make a right. Neither you or LawGuy have experienced such outrageous conduct, so what qualifies you to have an opinion?

In my opinion, absent a finding of parental unfitness by clear and convincing evidence children of divorce should have both parents.


First, I don't benefit anything from the legal system.

Second, the law still rules regardless of finding of fitness that you cling too, but I don't disagree that a child should have access to both parents.

Third, I will remind you that you don't know me personally and you don't know what me or my family have been through. I know more about what you rant about than you would guess, but I don't let it rule my life or be my only purpose in life. Things happened - life goes on...life is what you make of it and apparently me and my family have fared well because there is no bitterness or regret or anger over any of what happened. I suggested counseling because it can be a very good thing in situations like this where all you focus on are the negative things that happen to you and when all you focus on are the negative or the agenda, you miss out on so much more that life has to offer you. You can judge me all you want. I've already been judged and I assure you, the finding was in my favor.

You continue to talk about being a FIT parent. Let me ask you, would you consider a "hoarder" or a "drug addict" or a "OCD" or other mental issues a "FIT" parent? Those are addictive behaviors and AT TIMES -- NOT ALL OF THE TIME -- BUT SOMETIMES, I see an addiction in your posts...and overly sensitive fixation on your topics and what you stump about and that is concerning. It makes me ask myself if you do this around your child during the time that you have her? Do you run down her mother to others in front of her? Do you give her a negative opinion of the court system and make her not have respect for authority or for our legal system etc? Do you impart that negativity to your child? While a court may not consider it UNFIT -- it should be a red flag for you to recognize this behavior as something you don't want to pass on to your daughter. Those behaviors would or could adversely affect your custody situation. You can be "fit" some of the time, but not be capable of being "fit" all of the time regardless of custody arrangement or divorce or whatever. However, just as LawGuy pointed out -- your rights have not been terminated -- limited by time due to the divorce -- your child can't be in two places at once and I would dare to say your ex is just a fit parent as you think you are as well -- so I hope you are thankful for the blessings that you do have. It is what it is...make the very best of it...make your daughter see what she has and don't let her look back and have issues because she believes your agenda is more important to you than she is.

Having an opinion and a conviction about something is wonderful but to have it be to the point of an obsession is never a good thing. Just my opinion...as someone that has been there and done that and been on both sides of the couch -- I am very entitled to state it.


+++

DC

You are assuming my narrowly focused forum posts means I do not cherish the good things in life or that these issues are talked about to my child. I DO NOT talk about adult issues to my children.

These issues are pointed out to educate other ADULTS that haven't a clue. It does NOT rule my life, but is part of my job.

You are on the attack or should I say defensive, and I should seek counseling? Wink


That's right...deflect and make this about me...I openly admitted that I have sought out counseling and if I felt my life needed an outlet again I would do so in a heart beat...There is no shame in it -- and more people would benefit if they would try it. I know several counselors that I could refer you too that are wonderful at what they do...I hope that you will consider it for your child in the future as well...children of divorce and chaotic legal battles such as yours often don't realize or know what is their fault and what is the parents malfunction and counseling can help them address those issues...


You go girl!! I would recommend counseling for anyone going through a major life change such as divorce, a custody battle, or the loss of a loved one or even loss of a job. it was probably the wisest thing I ever did for myself or my children when i started going through a divorce. It doesn't mean that you're weak or crazy - just that you are willing to talk about things and let someone with an unbiased opinion help you keep things in perspective. I admire anyone such as you who can seek help when they need it.

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