Are You Ashamed of Jesus?

When I consider how Christ suffered for ME, I am overwhelmed with wonder, gratitude and love for Him. When I realize that the Father loved His Son so much, and yet gave him up to such suffering so that all who believe in Him might be redeemed, I am blown away!

When I look at an empty cross, I see the symbolism. I see that empty cross and know that He arose. It too is overwhelming. I have no problem at all with an empty cross.

But the crucifix is even more powerful than the empty cross. With the empty cross, one sees a symbol of our redemption. With the crucifix, one sees exactly what it TOOK to purchase that redemption for us.

So to get to Heaven, you have to worship the crucifix?

Why can one not picture exactly what it took to purchase that redemption with the empty cross?

The question was are you ashamed of Jesus? no I am not ashamed of jesus, I will admit before anyone that I am a follower of Jesus, If you deny him he will deny you before God.

Hi Vic and O No,

Vic, you say, "Why Bill Gray considers the Crucifix a graven image I'll never understand. . .  The Crucifix has been a inspiration for certain Christians for two thousand years.  (Roman) Catholics have held this reminder close to their hearts for the love of the sacrifice Jesus made, for the love of Jesus himself, and a true Christian will never be ashamed of the Crucifix."

Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."

I believe we all agree that Jesus Christ is in heaven -- and therefore we are not to attempt to create and worship His likeness on earth.

My Friends, is your Jesus still hanging on the cross -- or is He in heaven, seated at the right hand of God, interceding for all believers?

Colossians 3:1, "Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."

Romans 8:34, ". . . Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

My Jesus Christ, my personal Lord and Savior -- is NOT hanging on a cross anywhere; but, is in heaven interceding for me and preparing a home to which He will one day Rapture me.

When I view the cross, just as when I see the spikes -- I am reminded that He suffered horribly and died for me, that I might have eternal life.  I do not have to see Him still hanging on the cross to know how much He loves me. 

Just as I do not have to eat His physical flesh and drink His physical blood -- DAILY -- to know how much He loves me.   He died "once for all" (Romans 6:10, Hebrew 7:27, 9:12, 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18) and I will not continue to crucify my Lord on a daily basis.

Yet, I do view the cross as a symbol of His love, and I do commune with Him through the symbolic bread and wine/juice.  I will always do these things -- until I die and am immediately in His presence -- or until He comes again in the clouds to call me home (Rapture) to be with Him eternally.

Am I ashamed of my Jesus Christ?  A person would have to be totally deranged -- or have a heart of concrete to be ashamed of our Lord and Savior.   No, I am not ashamed.  I am so proud to call Him my personal Lord and Savior.   And, because I am not ashamed of Him nor of His Gospel -- I will always be writing about Him and sharing His Word -- until He returns.

Romans 1:15-17, "So, as much as is in me, I am ready to preach the Gospel to you who are in Rome (and on the TimesDaily Religion Forum) also. For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.   For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.' "

And, O No, you declare, "But the crucifix is even more powerful than the empty cross.  With the empty cross, one sees a symbol of our redemption. With the crucifix, one sees exactly what it TOOK to purchase that redemption for us."

My Friend, as a non-Roman Catholic Christian, this has to be spoken from a purely naiveté position -- or you dislike me so much that you will say anything to disagree with me.

Under either position, I urge you to go back and really examine what God is telling us in Exodus 20:4, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."  

Jesus is most assuredly in heaven above and a crucifix is most definitely a likeness of Him created to be worshiped.  You say it is not to be worshiped?  Then, why do you say the crucifix is more powerful than the empty cross?

My Friend, please do not delude yourself, through naiveté or because of a dislike for me.  Your eye should be focused on Jesus Christ Himself; not on me or on a crucifix.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, the empty cross is just as much of a "graven image" as the crucifix. It is the likeness of something on the Earth.

But the graven images the Bible is referring to are false gods. No one worships the crucifix, nor do they worship the cross. And they are certainly not false gods. They are no different than pictures of Jesus you see in the Bible. Just symbols of the God we all worship.

And you seem to have missed the part of the post I made yesterday (or was it the day before) where I told you I am now taking catechism and in the process of becoming Roman Catholic. I seriously thank you for that. It was your constant Catholic bashing that made me do more and more research about the Catholic faith. The more I read, the more I liked it. And there is no doubt in my mind that I have made the right choice.

Hi O No,

If you want to stand on a cliff and jump off; I cannot stop you.  All I can tell you is that you WILL have a surprise ending.   And, that is all I can add with your new revelation.  You could have chosen to be a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, an Agnostic, an Atheist, or any of the other false religions just as well -- I have written against all of them.  

And, I have written against the homosexual and lesbian lifestyles.

You have chosen the Roman Catholic church; God bless you.  I, too, found solace in the Roman Catholic church for twenty years, went through Catechism classes, and all -- before I became a Christian believer and found the Truth.

So, if you have chosen to drive over the cliff; I will pray for you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

LOL!  Bill lost another soul. 

Wonder why bill worries so much about other denominations, what they do, and the ten commandments. He breaks most of those commandments anyway. 

Nah, I'm not ashamed of Jesus.

He was probably some good hearted bloke doing the best he could to spread a little love around.  And then, people who glommed onto him turned him into some sort of mythical monster whose idea of morality would have shocked the real man.

I am ashamed of many of his followers.  Most of them, actually.

DF

See, Vic?

We can agree on something.  Hope springs eternal.

Best for the weekend.

DF

LESSONS FROM THE CROSS

The cross of Jesus portrays the full measure of the supreme devotion of the true shepherd for even the unworthy members of his flock. It forever places all relations between God and man upon the family basis. God is the Father; man is his son. Love, the love of a father for his son, becomes the central truth in the universe relations of Creator and creature—not the justice of a king which seeks satisfaction in the sufferings and punishment of the evil-doing subject.

The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus’ death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice—mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living.. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master’s love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

Jesus, by the power of his personal love for men, could break the hold of sin and evil. He thereby set men free to choose better ways of living. Jesus portrayed a deliverance from the past which in itself promised a triumph for the future. Forgiveness thus provided salvation. The beauty of divine love, once fully admitted to the human heart, forever destroys the charm of sin and the power of evil.

The sufferings of Jesus were not confined to the crucifixion. In reality, Jesus of Nazareth spent upward of twenty-five years on the cross of a real and intense mortal existence. The real value of the cross consists in the fact that it was the supreme and final expression of his love, the completed revelation of his mercy.

The triumph of the death on the cross is all summed up in the spirit of Jesus’ attitude toward those who assailed him. He made the cross an eternal symbol of the triumph of love over hate and the victory of truth over evil when he prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” That devotion of love was contagious throughout a vast universe; the disciples caught it from their Master. The very first teacher of his gospel who was called upon to lay down his life in this service, said, as they stoned him to death, “Lay not this sin to their charge.”

The cross makes a supreme appeal to the best in man because it discloses one who was willing to lay down his life in the service of his fellow men. Greater love no man can have than this: that he would be willing to lay down his life for his friends—and Jesus had such a love that he was willing to lay down his life for his enemies, a love greater than any which had hitherto been known on earth.

The cross is that high symbol of sacred service, the devotion of one’s life to the welfare and salvation of one’s fellows. The cross is not the symbol of the sacrifice of the innocent Son of God in the place of guilty sinners and in order to appease the wrath of an offended God, but it does stand forever, on earth and throughout a vast universe, as a sacred symbol of the good bestowing themselves upon the evil and thereby saving them by this very devotion of love. The cross does stand as the token of the highest form of unselfish service, the supreme devotion of the full bestowal of a righteous life in the service of wholehearted ministry, even in death, the death of the cross. And the very sight of this great symbol of the bestowal life of Jesus truly inspires all of us to want to go and do likewise.

When thinking men and women look upon Jesus as he offers up his life on the cross, they will hardly again permit themselves to complain at even the severest hardships of life, much less at petty harassments and their many purely fictitious grievances. His life was so glorious and his death so triumphant that we are all enticed to a willingness to share both. There is true drawing power in the whole bestowal of Michael, from the days of his youth to this overwhelming spectacle of his death on the cross.

Make sure, then, that when you view the cross as a revelation of God, you do not look with the eyes of the primitive man nor with the viewpoint of the later barbarian, both of whom regarded God as a relentless Sovereign of stern justice and rigid law-enforcement. Rather, make sure that you see in the cross the final manifestation of the love and devotion of Jesus to his life mission of bestowal upon the mortal races of his vast universe. See in the death of the Son of Man the climax of the unfolding of the Father’s divine love for his sons of the mortal spheres. The cross thus portrays the devotion of willing affection and the bestowal of voluntary salvation upon those who are willing to receive such gifts and devotion. There was nothing in the cross which the Father required—only that which Jesus so willingly gave, and which he refused to avoid.

That's quite possibly one of the best and the most realistic descriptions of Jesus as I have ever heard. 

Hi Al Williams,

Every once in a while you jump in here with your New Age Urantia Book bible and cult religion.   But, no matter how much of your Urantia Book you copy/paste -- it is still just New Age tripe.   Tell us more about how extraterrestrials brought the book to earth and presented it to man in the 1950s.

Sounds a lot like the teenager in upstate New York, who in the 1800s had an angel give him a set of golden plates containing a new sacred book, the Book of Mormon.   And, Muhammed hid in a cave about 600 AD, and the angels gave him the Qur'an.

Why do you people keep trying to reinvent what only God could create?   He gave us the Bible -- His perfect Written Word of God to mankind.  Yet, some folks just insist upon writing their own sacred books and then claiming it came from extraterrestrials or on golden plates from angels.

Al, your New Age Urantia Book was tripe three years ago -- and it still is.   Why don't you invest in a good Bible and leave the Urantia Book to be used as a door stop?

By the way, you say, "Forgiveness thus provided salvation."    No, my Friend, salvation provides forgiveness.

And, Michael did not did on the cross for mankind.   JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS.  Michael is the archangel.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Originally Posted by: Bill Gray

Sounds a lot like the teenager in upstate New York, who in the 1800s had an angel give him a set of golden plates containing a new sacred book, the Book of Mormon.

____

And you want a man for our President that believes that very thing?

Originally Posted by O No!:

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Isn't it amazing the things you can see when you look through your own eyes?

Originally Posted by: O No!

Here we have it folks! Bill has said right here that Catholicism is a "false religion" and has implied by his "surprise ending", his "before I became a Christian believer", and his "drive over a cliff", that I will go to Hell.

Bill, I'm afraid it is YOU who will get a surprise at the end. But carry on, by all means. I pity you.

________

If I remember correctly, it was Bill that drove veep away. He kept telling her she was in a cult, mocking her & telling her his way of getting to Heaven.

Just as he does to Skippy, whom he has almost driven away. Be funny if everyone left but Bill. I’m sure he would keep on keeping on cause he does love to read his post.

_______

I agree.

Once, when I was a Christian, I would never have dreamed of being ashamed of Jesus, or denying Him.

Now it's many years later & I'm looking for the truth.

My mind is open to learning if someone can show me, prove the truth to me. I have friends that say they're a Christian, in church when the doors are open, & think they know all there is to know. They wouldn't accept it if someone did show them in the Bible where they're wrong.

_________________

The fundamentalists are essentially a cult.  It is very much an "us against everyone else" kind of world. Any other religious sects are considered brothers in arms to be used as cannon fodder until the comet arrives.  Bill has been drinking the Kool Aid for a while now. 

Yes. Yes it is.  O_____0

I barely remember veep. She seemed like a nice person with lots of patience though but yeah Bill drives many away with his condemnation and uppity, sarcastic attitude. He doesn't see that though. 

Bill thinks that every time he drives someone away he's "won". And he is right! He has won! He has won the disgust, derision, dislike and "duhs" of us all.

Thanks.

DF

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Invictus said "There 's only one form of Christianity and that is Catholicism".

If that's true, what's going to happen in the end to those people that believe in other forms of Christianity?

It is sad that even among Christians there has to be or is apparent such adversarial relationships playing out before non-Christians.  My own belief is that Christ would be more concerned about that and the image and picture we are presenting unto others who surely consider it folly.  

As for the cross (empty) or the crucifix or many other things when it comes to the commandment I do believe that God expects us to use reason and our minds.  You will remember the answer Christ gave when he was ask about the Greatest commandment.  I truly believe you have to go to the intent of the person's heart.  I've been in Catholic churches, attended a Catholic School and although protestant, by my own choice, I consider it quite a stretch to say that Catholics are violating that Commandment with their crucifix.  To those who wear or carry the crucifix I fully believe they do so because of the special relationship they feel with Christ and their adoration for Christ and His sacrifice.  

Although I cannot totally rule out everyone that has one I have never personally known a Catholic or other believer carrying the crucifix that actually worshiped it in lieu of Jesus.  While the empty Cross has special significance to many Christians so does the crucifix and to say, dogmatically, that one worships one yet doesn't the other is treading on being hypocritical.  

Each of us has our own selves to answer for and each Christian chooses a denomination based on where they feel most comfortable, feel that they can better worship God at and believe that they are able to learn more and strengthen their faith more.  I think as respectful forum members, Christians and believers we should honor the answers given by our fellow believers as to what the cross or crucifix means to them and not assume anything for them.  Unfortunately though we are seemingly putting ourselves in positions that are so adversarial that we concentrate more on our disagreements than our agreements and common points.  

It is sad that even among Christians there has to be or is apparent such adversarial relationships playing out before non-Christians.  My own belief is that Christ would be more concerned about that and the image and picture we are presenting unto others who surely consider it folly. 

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Just about says it all. GB, do you honestly think non-believers don't know how you guys fight with each other? LOL!

gbrk, most Christians give no thought to non-believers. Take Bill Gray for instance. All he wants to do is mock & make fun of us. He cares about no ones soul & wants us to look at him in awe.

I never meant to imply with my questions that anyone wearing a crucifix is not a Christian. It’s none of my business if they wear a cow bell around their neck. Veep & I had several discussions about religion, what we believed/didn’t believe, & she never once got angry with me. She gave me her opinion about my questions with no anger at all.

I’ve had questions for most every denomination on this forum. I’ve had questions for the Atheist & if any of them have gotten upset with me, they haven’t let it be known. If someone says something that confuses me or sounds “out there” to me, I’ll question it. Who better to ask than the person that made the statement?

That empty Cross that has special significance for some people meant nothing to me. I didn’t need a reminder of a cross in front of me to remind me what Jesus did.  (IF He did it) That’s my opinion & in no way implies anything to anyone.

I could probably quote the Bible against the best of you. I have my ideas of what most scriptures mean (if the whole shebang is real) but that doesn’t mean that I’m right. It’s possible I could be wrong in what a scripture means, & if someone can prove to me that I’m wrong, I’m open to hear it. Any Christian that closes their mind to learning, in my mind, is a huge disappointment to

God. That person will never be able to learn more because they feel like they know it all already.

In my opinion ( but I’m nobody as far as religion is concerned) a Christian can & should choose a denomination, not where they are most comfortable, but based on where they agree with how the Bible is taught. If a Christian is in a church where they are comfortable, they need to find another church. I’ve seen many people in church where they were so comfortable, they slept thru the whole service.

Seems like I'm forever saying this, but if I offended anyone with my questions or opinions, it was not intended to offend.

Hi Vic,

Now you have me curious.  I know that the word "catholic" means universal.  And, I was taught by a man who spent most of his life as a Roman Catholic priest and Roman Catholic seminary dean and professor -- that it is best to always say "Roman Catholic" instead of Catholic -- to prevent confusion.

You see, all Christians are called "catholic" because it merely means a "universal" belief or faith.   However, only Roman Catholics belong to the church begun by Constantine.

And, I know that the church which Jesus Christ began in the Upper Room had its beginning about 33 AD.  Within a few years, somewhere around 33 - 50 AD, the name Christian was coined in Antioch as a derogatory name for followers of Jesus Christ; the name meaning "little Christs" or "Christ followers."

However, as is usual when detractors, i.e., non-believers, attempt to denigrate our Christian faith -- they usually end up aiding our Christian faith since they show, by their lack of knowledge and spiritual discernment, how great is our God.  Or, as in this case, what they thought would be a "crown of thorns, i.e., the name "Christian" -- actually became a crown of glory.

We know that the church which was called the Church of Rome, and is now called the Roman Catholic church, had it birth around 320 AD when Constantine converted, followed his Christian mother, declared Rome to be Christian, and mandated that all Romans were members of his new church and new religion.  He also established himself as the leader of that church -- so, I suppose we could look at Constantine as the first real pope.    But, in all fairness, Constantine did appoint a "bishop of Rome" which, I suppose, most Roman Catholics see as their first pope.   All this happened around 320 AD.

All these things we know from Biblical and secular history -- but, I am curious.   You seem to find some significance with the year 174 AD.  And, the only reference I can find to that year is:

Vic, what, in your mind, is the significance of the year 174 AD?  And, how do you, in your mind, relate this to the Christian faith?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

For the sake of the decent and honest members of the forum I'm

not going to continue this childish game billie's playing.

This topic has been covered too many times.

Hi Vic,

Okay, so please -- tell us what significance the years 174 AD and 163 AD have in your thinking. 

We know that the Roman Catholic church began about 320 AD with Constantine -- and about that time, in order to encourage some who still worshiped the pagan goddess, the mother/child statue was brought into the church and renamed Mary/Jesus -- thus beginning the worship of the goddess/child statues.

And, we know that any writings in the first or second century which mentioned the "catholic" church -- was speaking of the universal church -- not the Church of Rome.

But, still I see no significance for either 174 or 163.   And, since I am sure this is just something you pulled out of thin air -- I am sure you do not either.  So, you will just give one of your angry little replies and never answer.   No problem.  I understand.  It is difficult to defend that which does not exist.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Epic fail.