Christianity has ALWAYS been under attack, both from the outside, and from the inside. By outsiders like adherents of other faiths, those with no faith, those who believe that politics trumps faith. By insiders, from the preists and scribes in Biblical times, right down to present day televangilists and certain others within the church.
quote:greed but....
We will always need a Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, etc, to spread the word. Now granted there are a lot of those that are not suited for the job and do take advantage of Christian's good will.
I see clearly INVICTUS's post clearly and know what he means. He may be right in his assumption and only time will tell. However, the universal Christian will not die out. Believe it or not we have a religious war going on in the U.S. today and probably has been going on for a number of years. Only receently has it appeared so blantantly that it cannot be overlooked. Face it, our religion is under attack.
Tada, I think you misunderstood my meaning about preachers. Of course we need preachers, however there are some who tend to worship a preacher instead of God. That's what I was trying to say.
You know there are some who put more faith in a minister than thy have in our Lord.
quote:Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.
Why would you even pose the question Can Saints Help Us? If you believe it then they will help you. However, you even posting the question casts doubt of their helpfullness in your eyes yet you believe they do. I believe you wanted to start a fight on whether Saints are even relevant to see who else would jump on the band wagon.
My point is why even post the question?
If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.
tada,
I thought it would be something to talk about. Angels and saints help people
all the time. Just because you believe something like this doesn't mean it
will happen. In this case they will help if God grants it.
I really didn't want to start a fight. It's got to where the least thing will
have blood dripping out of everybodies eyes.
I think maybe you can forget unite.
quote:really didn't want to start a fight. It's got to where the least thing will
have blood dripping out of everybodies eyes.
No kidding. Sad, isnt it
I don't think you were confrontational at all in your post. It is a very valid question, and interesting topic.
Don't let anyone get you down!
quote:Originally posted by Kraven:quote:Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians. Why would you even pose the question Can Saints Help Us? If you believe it then they will help you. However, you even posting the question casts doubt of their helpfulness in your eyes yet you believe they do. I believe you wanted to start a fight on whether Saints are even relevant to see who else would jump on the band wagon.
My point is why even post the question? If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.
tada,
I thought it would be something to talk about. Angels and saints help people all the time. Just because you believe something like this doesn't mean it will happen. In this case they will help if God grants it.
I really didn't want to start a fight. It's got to where the least thing will have blood dripping out of everybody's eyes.
I think maybe you can forget unite.
Hi Kraven,
Yes, angels do help Christian believers all the time. In Hebrews 1:14 we read, "Are they (angels) not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?" Who will inherit salvation? Only Christian believers.
Who are the saints? We find in 1 Corinthians 1:1-2, "Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."
So, saints are all Christian believers -- starting with all the Old Testament believers (Hebrews 11) and all New Testament believers. And, during the Tribulation, a great number, too many to count (Revelation 7:9), will be added to the ranks of saints. During Christ's Millennial Reign on earth, all we saints will be with Him in our immortal bodies -- and those mortal believers who survive the Tribulation will be there in their mortal bodies.
So, when you say, "Angels and saints help people all the time" -- angels, yes -- saints, no. No where in the Bible do you find we saints ministering to or helping mortals who are still on earth. And, in Luke 16:19-31 we are told that those in Paradise, i.e., believers -- saints, cannot return to help those still living in mortal bodies.
However, God has not left us orphaned. Other saints would be weak helpers. Instead, God has given us strong helpers -- the Holy Spirit who has indwelled and sealed us (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30 ), who guides us (John 16:13), teaches us (John 14:26), and convicts us (John 16:7-8) -- and angels who are sent as ministering spirits to all believers (Hebrews 1:14).
And, on top of this powerful spiritual help -- Jesus Christ, Himself, is at the right hand of God interceding for all Christian believers 24/7/365 (Romans 8:34, 1 Timothy 2:5). Every Christian believer has the strongest helpers in the eternal universe. We have no need for those saints who have died and gone into their eternal rest to come back to help us.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by tada:quote:Originally posted by O No!:quote:Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.
And THAT is the truth!
Agreed but....
We will always need a Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, etc, to spread the word. Now granted there are a lot of those that are not suited for the job and do take advantage of Christian's good will.
I see clearly INVICTUS's post clearly and know what he means. He may be right in his assumption and only time will tell. However, the universal Christian will not die out. Believe it or not we have a religious war going on in the U.S. today and probably has been going on for a number of years. Only receently has it appeared so blantantly that it cannot be overlooked. Face it, our religion is under attack.
My dear Tada,
You are quite right. Your religion is under attack.
It is under attack by those who don't want Creationism taught in schools. It is under attack by those who see science and reason as good reasons to gauge reality. It is under attack by those who see all of humanity as worthy of human rights, not just the religious.
Your religion is under attack by the forces of knowledge, as opposed to superstition. It's under attack by the good-hearted people who refuse to find reasons to hate.
There was no Adam and Eve. No Original Sin. No need for redemption of such.
It's a new day, and I am the day bringer.
Luv ya, but you'll have to deal with me and my family from here on out. Truth, morality, and justice are on our side. A better time awaits when the dogmas of current religion are relegated to the dusty shelves of mythology.
nsns
quote:Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:quote:Originally posted by tada:quote:Originally posted by O No!:quote:Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.
And THAT is the truth!
Agreed but....
We will always need a Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, etc, to spread the word. Now granted there are a lot of those that are not suited for the job and do take advantage of Christian's good will.
I see clearly INVICTUS's post clearly and know what he means. He may be right in his assumption and only time will tell. However, the universal Christian will not die out. Believe it or not we have a religious war going on in the U.S. today and probably has been going on for a number of years. Only receently has it appeared so blantantly that it cannot be overlooked. Face it, our religion is under attack.
My dear Tada,
You are quite right. Your religion is under attack.
It is under attack by those who don't want Creationism taught in schools. It is under attack by those who see science and reason as good reasons to gauge reality. It is under attack by those who see all of humanity as worthy of human rights, not just the religious.
Your religion is under attack by the forces of knowledge, as opposed to superstition. It's under attack by the good-hearted people who refuse to find reasons to hate.
There was no Adam and Eve. No Original Sin. No need for redemption of such.
It's a new day, and I am the day bringer.
Luv ya, but you'll have to deal with me and my family from here on out. Truth, morality, and justice are on our side. A better time awaits when the dogmas of current religion are relegated to the dusty shelves of mythology.
nsns
Show much more ridiculous will you evolve to be?
I’m astounded by your claims the pitiful offering of atheist will replace religion.
Your are no more than the speck on the horizon.
Everyone believes in God even those few poisoned minds that await the second coming of Darwin.
He ain’t gonna show slim. Get used to it.
The small percentage that deny god are lying so that makes it unanimous.
Why don’t you give up on trying to rewrite history. You know you are wrong.
Look, you are scaring Tada. stop
quote:A better time awaits when the dogmas of current religion are relegated to the dusty shelves of mythology.
How will that be better?
Look- Christianity has been around for over 2000 years. Why do you think it will eventually get snuffed out?
Why is that your desire?
Do you not see a correlation between the decline of religion in this nation, with the rise in crime, hate, intolerance, and just plain ole evil???
quote:Posted 03 September 2010 01:52 PM Hide Post
quote:
greed but....
We will always need a Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, etc, to spread the word. Now granted there are a lot of those that are not suited for the job and do take advantage of Christian's good will.
I see clearly INVICTUS's post clearly and know what he means. He may be right in his assumption and only time will tell. However, the universal Christian will not die out. Believe it or not we have a religious war going on in the U.S. today and probably has been going on for a number of years. Only receently has it appeared so blantantly that it cannot be overlooked. Face it, our religion is under attack.
Tada, I think you misunderstood my meaning about preachers. Of course we need preachers, however there are some who tend to worship a preacher instead of God. That's what I was trying to say.
You know there are some who put more faith in a minister than thy have in our Lord.
Posts: 1608 | Location: The Mountian | Registered: 14 November 2006
Tada, did clear up what I was trying to say?
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:quote:A better time awaits when the dogmas of current religion are relegated to the dusty shelves of mythology.
How will that be better?
Look- Christianity has been around for over 2000 years. Why do you think it will eventually get snuffed out?
Why is that your desire?
Do you not see a correlation between the decline of religion in this nation, with the rise in crime, hate, intolerance, and just plain ole evil???
I see no such correlation. Neither do I see a rise in crime, hate (OK, maybe hate), intolerance, nor just plain old evil.
Crime stats are down. We're more tolerant than ever. Evil is a condition brought about by people, and the most evil parts of the world are often, perhaps usually, the most religious. Look at Sudan, for example.
There is no correlation between a religious people and a kind and safe people. There is reason to believe the opposite.
nsns
I would state Darfur is pure racism, not religion.
What is The Darfur Genocide?
The Darfur Genocide began in February 2003, when rebellions were started by the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudanese Liberation Army (SLA), who accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs and favoring the Arabs, and neglecting the Darfur region in West Sudan. The Sudanese government responded with aerial bombardments, joint-strikes on tribes with the Janjaweed. Together with the Sudanese Military they have consistently burnt down villages and displaced over 2,500,000 people. Together they have killed between 200,000 to 400,000 people. The government has restricted the press and put many people in jail to silence the opposition.
What is The Darfur Genocide?
The Darfur Genocide began in February 2003, when rebellions were started by the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudanese Liberation Army (SLA), who accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs and favoring the Arabs, and neglecting the Darfur region in West Sudan. The Sudanese government responded with aerial bombardments, joint-strikes on tribes with the Janjaweed. Together with the Sudanese Military they have consistently burnt down villages and displaced over 2,500,000 people. Together they have killed between 200,000 to 400,000 people. The government has restricted the press and put many people in jail to silence the opposition.
The Surprising Truth About Religious Hate Crimes
Tuesday October 28, 2008
Almost every religious group in American complains they suffer persecution. And they do. But two things jump out of the FBI's recently released report on hate crimes.
First, only 18% were "motivated by religious bias" compared to 50.% by race.
Second, there were twice as many hate crimes based on sexual orientation (16.6%) as there were based on Christianity.
Perhaps the biggest surprise to me: anti-Semitic crimes far outnumbered crimes against all other faiths combined. Of the 1,477 offenses reported by law enforcement, the breakdown was:
* 68.4 percent were anti-Jewish.
* 9.5 percent were anti-other religion.
* 9.0 percent were anti-Islamic.
* 4.4 percent were anti-Catholic.
* 4.3 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
* 4.0 percent were anti-Protestant.
* 0.4 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stev...l.html#ixzz0yhYtWt00
Tuesday October 28, 2008
Almost every religious group in American complains they suffer persecution. And they do. But two things jump out of the FBI's recently released report on hate crimes.
First, only 18% were "motivated by religious bias" compared to 50.% by race.
Second, there were twice as many hate crimes based on sexual orientation (16.6%) as there were based on Christianity.
Perhaps the biggest surprise to me: anti-Semitic crimes far outnumbered crimes against all other faiths combined. Of the 1,477 offenses reported by law enforcement, the breakdown was:
* 68.4 percent were anti-Jewish.
* 9.5 percent were anti-other religion.
* 9.0 percent were anti-Islamic.
* 4.4 percent were anti-Catholic.
* 4.3 percent were anti-multiple religions, group.
* 4.0 percent were anti-Protestant.
* 0.4 percent were anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stev...l.html#ixzz0yhYtWt00
disgusting stats, eh b?
nsns
nsns
Disgusting? I guess stats of hate crimes are.
But it does disprove that religion is the biggest factor. Only 18% were religious in nature. Race crimes were 50%.
And your group is the safest, .04%.
It seems until we can get by race problems, we will self destruct.
But it does disprove that religion is the biggest factor. Only 18% were religious in nature. Race crimes were 50%.
And your group is the safest, .04%.
It seems until we can get by race problems, we will self destruct.
NSNS,
What I meant was, back in "the day" when prayers were said in schools, and family values were intact, there was a higher level of morality.
Now, I am not a proponent of religion in public schools- quite the opposite, actually.
But with the decline in Christianity, can't you see that there is also a decline in the morality? Columbine, gangs, sex, meth.....
We are completely desensitized to these things. To the point where a school rampage is no longer a "shocker".
I do not have statistics- just common sense- this country may be more tolerant- and that's great, but the morals are in the toilet.
Is this because religion is on the back burner? Who knows?
Personally, I believe it is the case. The old school morality is deceased, and took a lot of the "good" with it.
What I meant was, back in "the day" when prayers were said in schools, and family values were intact, there was a higher level of morality.
Now, I am not a proponent of religion in public schools- quite the opposite, actually.
But with the decline in Christianity, can't you see that there is also a decline in the morality? Columbine, gangs, sex, meth.....
We are completely desensitized to these things. To the point where a school rampage is no longer a "shocker".
I do not have statistics- just common sense- this country may be more tolerant- and that's great, but the morals are in the toilet.
Is this because religion is on the back burner? Who knows?
Personally, I believe it is the case. The old school morality is deceased, and took a lot of the "good" with it.
joint-strikes on tribes with the Janjaweed.
Oh, please forgive me, but I got a picture of Bob Marley and his friends refusing to pass that roach.
Oh, please forgive me, but I got a picture of Bob Marley and his friends refusing to pass that roach.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by INVICTUS:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Catholic - greek - Universal 5th century The name just stuck. Like the name Christian stuck.
Hi Vic,
I wasn't questioning the definition of catholic, i.e., universal. I agree it means the worldwide "universal" body of Christian believers.
The word Catholic means universal, nothing else.
That would include all Roman Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, non-denominationals, etc. -- in other words, all who, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation.
This is the universal (catholic) church. The Roman Catholic church is but one of many and like all churches -- not all in that church are beleivers.(sic)
The Catholic is the only christian church that believes as it does.
I am glad we agree.
We don,t agree.
Bill
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
NSNS,
What I meant was, back in "the day" when prayers were said in schools, and family values were intact, there was a higher level of morality.
Now, I am not a proponent of religion in public schools- quite the opposite, actually.
But with the decline in Christianity, can't you see that there is also a decline in the morality? Columbine, gangs, sex, meth.....
We are completely desensitized to these things. To the point where a school rampage is no longer a "shocker".
I do not have statistics- just common sense- this country may be more tolerant- and that's great, but the morals are in the toilet.
Is this because religion is on the back burner? Who knows?
Personally, I believe it is the case. The old school morality is deceased, and took a lot of the "good" with it.
my dear Veep,
What else has changed in recent history, regarding school discipline?
Spankings? I haven't been in high school or 35 years, but believe me, the paddle was in use then. It's unthinkable now, except for certain districts who risk lawsuits.
What else has changed regarding teaching philosophy? Too much to relay here.
Teaching is a natural talent of the human species. Think about it. For hundreds of thousands of years we taught youngsters how to hunt, plant, find water, herd livestock, etc.
Now, we teach our kids more abstract things like math, science, geography (if they're lucky), computer skills, and language.
So far, you probably understand what I mean. At risk of personal embarrassment, it's all irrelevant.
You speak of morality. It's a big subject.
Is it moral to let kids run the classrooms? Is it moral to give them a 'time out' after they've whaled the heck out of a younger student?
Is it moral to "let kids learn at their own pace"? Often, when we do this, kids are unmotivated and learn slowly.
Is it moral for teachers, with no medical training whatever, to diagnose kids with ADD, ADHD, [alphabet soup BS], and other maladies that simply mask their inability to deal with energetic children? At risk of sounding like a Scientologist, what about Ritalin?
I have a couple of nephews who have been excused from expectations of normal effort and morality because PC teachers diagnosed them with alphabet diseases. It was to their profound disadvantage, and they would have been better off with a little discipline. But no.
Back to morality. Morality is a matter of education. Basic morality is pretty easy. Tell a child not to hit her sister because she would not want to be hit in turn. The Golden Rule.
But when you excuse immorality because of PC, psychobabble, Pop-psyce BS like "ADHD" at EVERY BLEEDING OPPORTUNITY, you'll get what we have now.
Like most Pop-psyche maladies, true examples occur. They're rare. But people want an excuse why Johnny isn't an A student. Perhaps he's just an average intellect. The horror. He must have some deficiency.
Johnny doesn't. He'll make a fine iron worker someday, if they leave him alone. Not to malign iron workers, but you get my drift.
Same with morality. Morality is a human gift. Most of it comes hard-wired into us as we are born, from there we examine it, parse it, abstract it.
In this way it's much like sex.
Morality is fluid. It's not god-given. It cannot be. I'm glad it's not.
Morality can only be effective if it is a fluid, discussable, changeable, plasticly applicable matrix of the acceptable according to contemporary social mores.
There is no absolute, objective morality. The notion is false and absurd. And impossible. And those who posit such are often evil and horrible. If the Old Testament is an example of absolute morality, are you willing to stone your children to death for disobeying you?
Having some fun now, eh?
love,
nsns
I don't think morality is built in. Kids can be so cruel. Kids will look at someone with a limb missing or an ugly person, and say mean things. Kids will torture bugs by putting them in a glass jar and shaking it until the bugs fight. Kids will stick a firecracker in a frogs backside and light it. Kids are very prone to being bullies unless they are taught otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by O No!:
I don't think morality is built in. Kids can be so cruel. Kids will look at someone with a limb missing or an ugly person, and say mean things. Kids will torture bugs by putting them in a glass jar and shaking it until the bugs fight. Kids will stick a firecracker in a frogs backside and light it. Kids are very prone to being bullies unless they are taught otherwise.
O,
you're right.
But, it's not so difficult to tell the kids how they might feel if they were frogs and bullies put firecrackers in them. One can see their little minds working by their faces.
yes, most kids will exhibit cruelty to animals until they are set straight. But it's not hard.
When we set them straight, and explain morality, they get it. It's innate. It's a helluva lot easier than fractions.
It's not universal, i agree. There are those who are deficient. They end up dead or in prison. Such is our inability to correct the maladjusted units in our society. We can work on this, among our other responsibilities.
nsns
well, I respect and agree that political correctedness has played a major hand in the downfall of morality.
But, it is my belief that it is also coupled (or compounded) by the decline in religion.
Hey, just my opinion.
Whatever the cause, kids are A-holes these days, and they run the joint.
ADD and ADHD are overdiagnosed. No question. But, there are kids who do truly need meds for it, and I don't believe that has a thing to do with morality, obviously, in legitimate cases.
We live in a "quick fix, instant gratification" society, where work ethic is in the toilet.
I believe there is not one cause, but a myriad. The end result is the same. Apathetic kids who are happy to be mediocre.
The golden rule only takes ya so far in life.
But, it is my belief that it is also coupled (or compounded) by the decline in religion.
Hey, just my opinion.
Whatever the cause, kids are A-holes these days, and they run the joint.
ADD and ADHD are overdiagnosed. No question. But, there are kids who do truly need meds for it, and I don't believe that has a thing to do with morality, obviously, in legitimate cases.
We live in a "quick fix, instant gratification" society, where work ethic is in the toilet.
I believe there is not one cause, but a myriad. The end result is the same. Apathetic kids who are happy to be mediocre.
The golden rule only takes ya so far in life.
quote:Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
My dear Tada,
You are quite right. Your religion is under attack.
It is under attack by those who don't want Creationism taught in schools. It is under attack by those who see science and reason as good reasons to gauge reality. It is under attack by those who see all of humanity as worthy of human rights, not just the religious.
Your religion is under attack by the forces of knowledge, as opposed to superstition. It's under attack by the good-hearted people who refuse to find reasons to hate.
There was no Adam and Eve. No Original Sin. No need for redemption of such.
Interesting.
you have data?
i cannot prove the existance of adam, eve, lot, Jehovah, cain, or abraham. i cannot prove the necessity of redemtion, forgivness and salvation.
i'm curious what evidence you have that you cna say so authoritativly that there never were any such people, or any such need.
what data can you offer that proves it false?
for the record... i don't believe in the idea of original sin either.
i don't buy the story of creation as it's written in the bible.
but i also don't have any acctual proof for my disbelief... i don't say ' it ain't so'.. i don't say ' it isn't true'... i say ' i don't believe'... because i can't offer any concrete data that shows the existance of Eden any more than i can show proof that Lot's wife was a foul mouthed sailor.
(you know... a little salty...)
This ought to be be good 
One patient diagnosing another. muhahaha it's killing me.
I laughed myself silly.
nagel you need to be in the fair. ooooh god how funny.
One patient diagnosing another. muhahaha it's killing me.I laughed myself silly.
nagel you need to be in the fair. ooooh god how funny.
you wuz all like, serious man.
"This ought to be be good One patient diagnosing another"
What?! What exactly does this mean?
What?! What exactly does this mean?
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
well, I respect and agree that political correctedness has played a major hand in the downfall of morality.
political correctness is the Debil. 'Appearance' is the Doubil Debil.
we've reached the point where it no longer matters what a thing *IS*, all that matters is what a thing appears to be.
log ago... shortly after we were first married, my wife's Ma used to tell me that the bible tells us that we should shun all appearence of evil. i worked days and eveings - our best female friend works days - her hubby, our best male friend, worked nights, and my wife didn't work at that time... so my wife and our best male friend would often go and hang out at what used to be aromas coffee shop, sit on the side walk, sip coffee and chat.
well, they were seen by one of her mom's church friends, who rushed right home and called my maw in law, who started calling my wife over and over and over until she finally got home a couple hours later.. there were over 3 dozen hang ups on the answering machine, all of them fitting in with her mom's number on the caller id.
her mom exploded.. how DARE she.. she was a married woman now! she couldn't be seen out in public with some other man.. some other MARRIEd man?! what would people say! what would they think! it was juts scandelous!
well.. when i got home form work about 30 minutes after hte phone call, my wife was in tears form her mom berating her.
we had dinner planned at her parents the next night. i made sure she called our buddy and went and had coffee with him.
and, as fortune had it, the same old busybody was there again. possibly for no other reason that to check up on her.
i asked my wife to please not answer the phone when she got home from coffee.. screen the calls...don't talk to her mom. and she agreed.
when we got to her mom's house, the woman was livid... i thought she was gonna stroke out....
i let her run on for a couple minutes and stopped her..
whoa whoa.. what's the matter what happened?
Oh.. she was seen in public.. on the side walk.. in broad daylight.. having coffee with a friend.. and that's wrong?
" YES.. she's married now, she can't be see out with another man in public like that!"
ah.. so, would it be better if they snuck around... and she went over to his house and had coffee... in private... where no one could see them...?
" OH my lands no, that's even worse!"
ah. so now that we are married, she isn't allowed to have any friends at all, other than me?
"No she can have friends, just not men friends she sees with out you there."
Ah. so. when am i supposed to sleep? i can't chaparone her 24/7. I trust her. his wife trusts him. we all 4 trust each other. why is it anyone elses business? no one else is married to any of us, i don't really care whan some old blue haird busybody thinks.
the lord tells us that we should abhor the appearance of evil.
ah. i see. that explains the televangelists. they appear very good. that explains the pastors preachers priests and teachers that molest children. they appear very good, unless they are caught. so as long as they don't APPEAR to be evil, it's ok to rape children? see, *I* think it's more important to abhor BEING evil.
i don't care what somethign LOOKS like, i care what somethign IS. and what this IS, is no one elses business but mine and my wifes and if any of your old lady church broads have anything to say to me about it give them my phone number and tell them to either say it to me in person or shut their ******* mouths.
people of color.
african americans.
mexican americans.
firepersons.
people-hole covers.
congresspeople
the politically correct can kiss my fluffy white irish-american bum.
don't worry about what it appears to be, worry about what it IS.
i'm american. my gender and race don't matter. neither does yours. or that guys over there.
i don't care where your g'g'g'g'great grandparents were from. or why. or what church to go to. or don't go to. we're here NOW.. and NOW we are american.
you wanna make sure we stick that cultural heritage tag infront of the 'american' part? if it means that much to you, maybe you should get out and go back to where ever it is your so proud of, while the rest of us americans stay here.
don't stand there and tell me what things should ' appear' to be.
i don't care abotu appearence, i care about substance.
bill grey ' appears' to be a good solid christian.
at first.
but eventually you realize he man is filled with hate and fear, that he cares less about hte word of god than about the word of other men, and is a horrible example of christian values.
bill gray is the crusades and spanish inquisition of the modern era. appears to be a good idea... but in fact has the substance of false teachings, hatred and has none of the substance of Christ.
keep your politically correct appearance... i'll keep my cold hard substance.
quote:i don't care abotu appearence, i care about substance.
agree....
Author and SciFi deity Robert A. Heinlein once suggested in one of his works that the most sure sign of the beginning of the fall of any culture was the standard state of public toilets.
i'm not sure i really buy into his proposal, but it cannot be written off as having no merit.
when a culture has become so sick and diseased that the nasty condition of public toilets has become so expected that it's reached punchline status.... and then left punchline status because the jokes are so old no one cares anymore.. one has to wonder if Bob had a point.
when the average american cares so little about his fellow american that they can't even be bothered to flush? it's gone so far now that people intentionally fill up the toilet and purposfully don't flush out of some twisted amusment they get by inflicting that upon some unsuspecting random stranger.
i don't think it was the advent of political correctness that was the begining of the downfall of this country.... i don't think it was the removal of prayer and god from our schools that started it.
i think it was the sudden decline in manners and respect and politness during the late 60's and 70s that was the start of all of it.
hippies and baby boomers. people who were out for no one and nothing but to better themselves and to promote their own cause and agenda at the expense of all others.
when did people start to drop ' thank you' and ' sir' and ' ma'am ' from our everyday speech? 60's and 70's. when did people start thinking of themselves first, to the exclusion of everyone else?60's and 70's.
when did automatic comtempt replace respectfull greetings, as a standard ideal? 60's and 70's. one side was 'the man.' and the other side were draft dodgers, protestors and hippes. tune in, turn on and drop out. fight the power. not sure why none of them ever used soap, but that's probabaly a factor as well. how did we have a sexual revoloution when all the revoloutionists smells like 2 week old leftover dead skunks?
anyway.
my mom always taught me 'respect is earned, not given.' she also taught me to be polite until i'd decided whether that person is worthy of my respect or not.
it wasn't the removal of god from our schools that lead to columbine and the death of consideration for others and common courtesy and forced political correctness...
it was the death of courtsey, the rise of ' i got mine, get yours' and 'don't let 'the man' keep you down' that resulted in the end of everyday politeness and respect that resulted in the removal of prayer from our schools, and students shooting students, and jackholes not flushing the toilet at the gas station when they were through.
it all started to fall apart when we stopped thinking about how to help each other and focused on how to make our pile bigger than the other guys.
( as an aside.... i don't think the removal of school prayer and the end of creationism as a teachable subject are really related that much - at the bottom line of it.
i have a H U G E problem with creation... of any variety, in any religion.. being taught in school. i think during science class when they hit the big bang bit, the teachers should be required to say ' there are some that believe the universe was brought into being at the thought of a supreme being instead of through molecular combinations brought about by' blah blah blah...
not TAUGHT.. mentioned... then left alone. if questions are asked during class the teacher should deflect.. ' this isn't a theology class, regardless of my beliefs, we don't have any scientific fact to either support or disprove the existance of a higher power. we;re here to discuss hard fact. take philosophy next year."
i say this because regardless of anyone personal beliefs, there are a huge number of people who belief a supreme being snapped his fingers and it all poofed into place 6000 years ago and started with 2 people regadless that there are civilizations older than their magic 6k number, and because, at this time, we cannot PROOVE god does or does not exist - and to say he isn't real, period, is just as arrogant and full of crap as people who say that he is real.
no matter what each of us personally believes, there are more people in civilizied nations who believe in creation that believe in random chance. these numbers deserve at least a brief nod, and then that side of the issue should be left up to parents and churches to educate the child on.
( i believe God exists... but i won't ever tell you i am 100% dead right... it's what i believe to be real, not what i know for a fact)
but while i do not want creationism (or any other aspect of faith)TAUGHT in schools, i don't mind prayer. if a kid believes, he'll pray. if he doesn't believe he won't pray. if he doesn't believe, why does it matter if some one spouts a prayer at him? back in high school i didn't believe.. had no reason to.. but it didn't bother me when someone who did believe prayed at me... it was just them wasting their tiem, no skin off my nose, knock yourself out.. i hope you don't mind if i keep on reading my book.
if you're offended by someone praying at you because you don't believe... well, you're pretty pathetic, really.
HOW DARE you spout words about a non existant deity in my preseance! the constutition protects me from your empty words that contain phrases i reject addressed to a being i reject.... i am so offended by all the words you are wasteing in my hearing because i don't believe in what you believe in and i feel threatened by your belief.
pathetic. grow a pair and get over yourself.
the constitution doesn't guarentee you the right to never be offended. in fact, with the promise of free speech to everyone it pretty much promises you that at some point some on is goign to say soemthign that ticks you off, and you won't be able to do a bloody thing to stop them
it comes down to a bumper sticker i saw once... and it is 100% correct... and there is nothing either hard core atheists NOR hyper zealous fundies can do about it.
' as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school'.
now.. if you'l lexcuse me.. i'm goign to turn off the rambling prose mode, refill the rum glass, and go watch the daily show.
i'm not sure i really buy into his proposal, but it cannot be written off as having no merit.
when a culture has become so sick and diseased that the nasty condition of public toilets has become so expected that it's reached punchline status.... and then left punchline status because the jokes are so old no one cares anymore.. one has to wonder if Bob had a point.
when the average american cares so little about his fellow american that they can't even be bothered to flush? it's gone so far now that people intentionally fill up the toilet and purposfully don't flush out of some twisted amusment they get by inflicting that upon some unsuspecting random stranger.
i don't think it was the advent of political correctness that was the begining of the downfall of this country.... i don't think it was the removal of prayer and god from our schools that started it.
i think it was the sudden decline in manners and respect and politness during the late 60's and 70s that was the start of all of it.
hippies and baby boomers. people who were out for no one and nothing but to better themselves and to promote their own cause and agenda at the expense of all others.
when did people start to drop ' thank you' and ' sir' and ' ma'am ' from our everyday speech? 60's and 70's. when did people start thinking of themselves first, to the exclusion of everyone else?60's and 70's.
when did automatic comtempt replace respectfull greetings, as a standard ideal? 60's and 70's. one side was 'the man.' and the other side were draft dodgers, protestors and hippes. tune in, turn on and drop out. fight the power. not sure why none of them ever used soap, but that's probabaly a factor as well. how did we have a sexual revoloution when all the revoloutionists smells like 2 week old leftover dead skunks?
anyway.
my mom always taught me 'respect is earned, not given.' she also taught me to be polite until i'd decided whether that person is worthy of my respect or not.
it wasn't the removal of god from our schools that lead to columbine and the death of consideration for others and common courtesy and forced political correctness...
it was the death of courtsey, the rise of ' i got mine, get yours' and 'don't let 'the man' keep you down' that resulted in the end of everyday politeness and respect that resulted in the removal of prayer from our schools, and students shooting students, and jackholes not flushing the toilet at the gas station when they were through.
it all started to fall apart when we stopped thinking about how to help each other and focused on how to make our pile bigger than the other guys.
( as an aside.... i don't think the removal of school prayer and the end of creationism as a teachable subject are really related that much - at the bottom line of it.
i have a H U G E problem with creation... of any variety, in any religion.. being taught in school. i think during science class when they hit the big bang bit, the teachers should be required to say ' there are some that believe the universe was brought into being at the thought of a supreme being instead of through molecular combinations brought about by' blah blah blah...
not TAUGHT.. mentioned... then left alone. if questions are asked during class the teacher should deflect.. ' this isn't a theology class, regardless of my beliefs, we don't have any scientific fact to either support or disprove the existance of a higher power. we;re here to discuss hard fact. take philosophy next year."
i say this because regardless of anyone personal beliefs, there are a huge number of people who belief a supreme being snapped his fingers and it all poofed into place 6000 years ago and started with 2 people regadless that there are civilizations older than their magic 6k number, and because, at this time, we cannot PROOVE god does or does not exist - and to say he isn't real, period, is just as arrogant and full of crap as people who say that he is real.
no matter what each of us personally believes, there are more people in civilizied nations who believe in creation that believe in random chance. these numbers deserve at least a brief nod, and then that side of the issue should be left up to parents and churches to educate the child on.
( i believe God exists... but i won't ever tell you i am 100% dead right... it's what i believe to be real, not what i know for a fact)
but while i do not want creationism (or any other aspect of faith)TAUGHT in schools, i don't mind prayer. if a kid believes, he'll pray. if he doesn't believe he won't pray. if he doesn't believe, why does it matter if some one spouts a prayer at him? back in high school i didn't believe.. had no reason to.. but it didn't bother me when someone who did believe prayed at me... it was just them wasting their tiem, no skin off my nose, knock yourself out.. i hope you don't mind if i keep on reading my book.
if you're offended by someone praying at you because you don't believe... well, you're pretty pathetic, really.
HOW DARE you spout words about a non existant deity in my preseance! the constutition protects me from your empty words that contain phrases i reject addressed to a being i reject.... i am so offended by all the words you are wasteing in my hearing because i don't believe in what you believe in and i feel threatened by your belief.
pathetic. grow a pair and get over yourself.
the constitution doesn't guarentee you the right to never be offended. in fact, with the promise of free speech to everyone it pretty much promises you that at some point some on is goign to say soemthign that ticks you off, and you won't be able to do a bloody thing to stop them
it comes down to a bumper sticker i saw once... and it is 100% correct... and there is nothing either hard core atheists NOR hyper zealous fundies can do about it.
' as long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school'.
now.. if you'l lexcuse me.. i'm goign to turn off the rambling prose mode, refill the rum glass, and go watch the daily show.
quote:Originally posted by thenagel:
i believe God exists... but i won't ever tell you i am 100% dead right... it's what i believe to be real, not what i know for a fact.
Hi Nagel,
You can be sure that God exists -- if you want. You can be sure through answered prayers; you can be sure through fulfilled prophesies; you can be sure by God's amazing creation all around you. You can be sure -- IF you truly want to believe.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by thenagel:
i believe God exists... but i won't ever tell you i am 100% dead right... it's what i believe to be real, not what i know for a fact.
Hi Nagel,
You can be sure that God exists -- if you want. You can be sure through answered prayers; you can be sure through fulfilled prophesies; you can be sure by God's amazing creation all around you. You can be sure -- IF you truly want to believe.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
no i can't.
neither can you, unless you delude yourself into believing things are are a huge imaginative stretching of the words written.
i DO believe. but i cannot *know*.
i KNOW water is wet.
i KNOW jabbing a fork in my eye will hurt.
i KNOW my wife is beautiful.
i KNOW sticking my weenier in a light socket and flipping the switch is a bad idea.
these things are demonstrable and proveable with tiral and observation.
i BELIEVE God is real, and that He loves us.
i BELIEVE Strawberry is better than Raspberry.
i BELIEVE cool weather is better than warm weather.
none of this can be proven, or there wouldn't be any more debate on the issue.
Bill, if it could be proven that god exists and we could KNOW he is there, this entire forum wouldn't be necessary.
if it could be proven, billy joe, deep and jank wouldn't be calling
that's why it's called faith.
it's the concept of believing in something that CANNOT be proven.
if you *KNOW* something to be true, then there is no faith involved.
i don't have faith that water is wet. i know it is. there isn't an opposing group of people trying to disprove the wetness of water.
there isn't a differing sect that tries to teach us that water is only wet on the outside, but desert dry on the inside.
the wetness of water requires no faith.
God requires faith because we cannot prove his existance.
if you PROVE that God is real, even if only to yourself, you've destroyed your faith for a lie.
quote:Originally posted by vplee123:
"This ought to be be good One patient diagnosing another"
What?! What exactly does this mean?
i wasn't sure either.
i think it means that because i disagree with thebill, i'm an athiest, so to buffalo watching me talk about religion with deepfat is like to inmates trying to psychoanalyze each other.
i'm not sure , but i think that was the point he was tryign to get across...
but liek ramm, WH and .. that other annying guy i can't rememebr the name of, i've put buff on ignore.
these people contribute absoloutly nothing to the conversation in any way. i don't wish to waste my time by trying to figure out what the heck they are talking about, since it isn't going to be anything useful anyway .
Nothing to do with Bro. Bill, nagel.
kraven,
I was not fighting I was merely mentioning that if you believe Saints help you in your daily life then great, awesome, but why even question it if you believe it. That is all.
If Atheists do not believe in God it is their own natural right to do so.
However, I will not accept it not being taught in school. It is part of history is it not? It is what our country was founded upon is it not? Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?
I guess we will all tell those intuitive school children "DUH... I don't know"
I do like science and yes a lot of it does make sense, but to believe there is not a higher power is in my mind short sighted on your part NSNS.
Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation. Sure a lot of people are missing those traits or were not taught to them when they were young, but hey no one is perfect. I will not try to sway you to my beliefs NSNS it is your natural right to believe what you want to believe. I expect the same from you and your friends. I fear no one or nothing except God's wrath.
I do not know about any of you but, I feel change coming and it has nothing to do with Obama. Something is wrong in the world. We have major earthquakes in the world once every month, we have bedbugs again and having trouble containing them, volcanoes erupting more frequently, drought, record heat, strife, wars, hunger, and hardly no peace to be heard of.
I do not believe it is totally man-made, but we have contributed to the current climate status.
I am not doomsday person or 2012er however, I do prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
I do believe there is something coming our way and it is not going to be nice to anyone religious or non-religious.
I was not fighting I was merely mentioning that if you believe Saints help you in your daily life then great, awesome, but why even question it if you believe it. That is all.
If Atheists do not believe in God it is their own natural right to do so.
However, I will not accept it not being taught in school. It is part of history is it not? It is what our country was founded upon is it not? Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?
I guess we will all tell those intuitive school children "DUH... I don't know"
I do like science and yes a lot of it does make sense, but to believe there is not a higher power is in my mind short sighted on your part NSNS.
Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation. Sure a lot of people are missing those traits or were not taught to them when they were young, but hey no one is perfect. I will not try to sway you to my beliefs NSNS it is your natural right to believe what you want to believe. I expect the same from you and your friends. I fear no one or nothing except God's wrath.
I do not know about any of you but, I feel change coming and it has nothing to do with Obama. Something is wrong in the world. We have major earthquakes in the world once every month, we have bedbugs again and having trouble containing them, volcanoes erupting more frequently, drought, record heat, strife, wars, hunger, and hardly no peace to be heard of.
I do not believe it is totally man-made, but we have contributed to the current climate status.
I am not doomsday person or 2012er however, I do prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
I do believe there is something coming our way and it is not going to be nice to anyone religious or non-religious.
quote:Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?
Because a Christian organization organized shortly after the civil war and attempted to re-write the Preamble of the Constitution so that is paid homage to Jesus and the God of Abraham. They failed in that but they succeeded in getting it printed on the money.
quote:Originally posted by tada:
However, I will not accept it not being taught in school. It is part of history is it not? It is what our country was founded upon is it not? Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?
That religion has played a part in history is undeniable. And it's role, good and bad, certainly should be taught in history classes. But to teach a particular religion in public schools is clearly wrong, and just plain unconstitutional. The country was founded because our founding fathers felt the need to divorce themselves from King George and England, mostly over financial issues, and not over any religious dispute. In God We Trust wasn't put on our currency until the Civil War: http://www.ustreas.gov/educati...n-god-we-trust.shtml.
Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation.
These are traits that are embraced by Buddhists, Hindus, and many other religions and non-religious peoples. To call them "God given" is based on your own bias, and is in my opinion, incorrect. If you are a Christian, the only God given traits I can see are inquisitiveness and a problem with authority.
Thenagel, GREAT rant! Just one thing you forgot to mention - I believe one of the things that has caused humanity to go downhill is the way we have been raising our kids to believe they are all "special". The whole self-esteem movement is BOGUS. Sure, it would be nice to see everyone have self-esteem, but we have forgotten to tell our kids that they have to EARN it.
[/QUOTE]quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation.
These are traits that are embraced by Buddhists, Hindus, and many other religions and non-religious peoples. To call them "God given" is based on your own bias, and is in my opinion, incorrect. If you are a Christian, the only God given traits I can see are inquisitiveness and a problem with authority.
I did say I was a Christian right? If their beliefs are the same then so be it. I do not know much of their beliefs and I can only keep up with one.
So all Christians do not have Morals, Honesty, and Wisdom and are only inquisitive mindless people that have a problem with authority??
Before I post anything else did I interpret your post wrong?
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:quote:Originally posted by tada:
However, I will not accept it not being taught in school. It is part of history is it not? It is what our country was founded upon is it not? Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?
That religion has played a part in history is undeniable. And it's role, good and bad, certainly should be taught in history classes. But to teach a particular religion in public schools is clearly wrong, and just plain unconstitutional. The country was founded because our founding fathers felt the need to divorce themselves from King George and England, mostly over financial issues, and not over any religious dispute. In God We Trust wasn't put on our currency until the Civil War: http://www.ustreas.gov/educati...n-god-we-trust.shtml.
Maybe we need to reprint the money and put "In Obama We trust" then.
quote:Originally posted by O No!:
Thenagel, GREAT rant! Just one thing you forgot to mention - I believe one of the things that has caused humanity to go downhill is the way we have been raising our kids to believe they are all "special". The whole self-esteem movement is BOGUS. Sure, it would be nice to see everyone have self-esteem, but we have forgotten to tell our kids that they have to EARN it.
WHUPS!
you're correct. i did forget that, my apologies.
you are right, it's total BS.
(secenario a)
yes, bobby, we know the other team made 9 goals, and your team didn't make any goals at all, but it's ok, every body gets a trophy! every one is a winner!
(seven years later)
trophy? what are you talkin about a trophy? you bunch of numbnuts didn't score a single point, why in god's name do you think you deserve a trophy?
(secenerio b)
but choach, it doesn't make any sense! it's not fair!
well, timmy, i know they didn't scrore at all, abd you scored 5 goals all by yourself, and the rest fo the team for 4 more, but every one wins today, everyone gets a trohpy!
that's BS coach. i quit. stuff your trophy up your up your jumper.
quote:Originally posted by thenagel:
I BELIEVE God is real, and that He loves us.
Hi Nagel,
Are you saying you believe "intellectually" that God real? Even Satan can verify that. Intellectually Satan KNOWS God is real. But, he is not a believer -- he does not believe "spiritually."
Or, are you saying that you believe spiritually that God is real -- that you KNOW you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?
If that is the case -- then you KNOW that God is real. Otherwise, you could not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
How do I know God is real? To date, there are about 1800 Bible prophecies which have been fulfilled. God has never been wrong; no prophecy which was to be fulfilled has failed to be fulfilled. Do you have any concept of how large a number it would take to represent the statistical probability of 1800 fulfilled prophecies?
Let's take an actual statistical study using only 8 prophecies. Professor of Science at Westmont College, Peter Stoner, had 600 of his students calculate the probability of one man fulfilling only 8 prophecies made concerning Jesus Christ. Using only eight prophecies, they estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling those eight prophecies was one in 10^17. That is 1 chance in
100,000,000,000,000,000
If we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them across the state of Texas -- they will cover the entire state two feet deep. And, this is the statistical probability of only 8 prophecies being true. Can you imagine the size of the number for 1800 fulfilled prophecies? I cannot; the number is beyond my ability to comprehend. Yet, this has happened. They were prophesied in the Bible -- and they were fulfilled -- proven by both Biblical and secular writers.
Nagel, this proves beyond all doubt that the Bible is valid and real. And, if the Bible is valid and real -- its Author must also be valid and real.
No other holy book from ANY world religion gives us prophecies. Why? Because their authors have been men -- who could not give true prophecies; so, none are given. Among all the holy books of all religions, only in the Bible will you find prophecies -- and them fulfilled.
That, on top of verifiable prayers answered is proof that God is real -- and why I KNOW He is real.
On top of this, I have felt and seen the working of the Holy Spirit within me -- proof that I am a child of God. And, I could not be a child of God -- if He did not exist.
Hebrews 12:1-2, "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith,. . . "
Yes, Nagel, we have so much proof that God is real and that Jesus Christ wants to take your "intellectual" belief that God is real -- and solidify that into a strong "spiritual" KNOWING that God is real. Why don't you allow Him to do this? Today, right now, would be a good time to make that commitment.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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