Can Saints Help US?

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Why don't you allow Him to do this? Today, right now, would be a good time to make that commitment.

BILL! Nagel is a Christian.
He was simply saying that Faith is believing in the absence of evidence.
We have no hard proof- otherwise the debate would be over.

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Originally posted by tada:

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:

Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation.

These are traits that are embraced by Buddhists, Hindus, and many other religions and non-religious peoples. To call them "God given" is based on your own bias, and is in my opinion, incorrect. If you are a Christian, the only God given traits I can see are inquisitiveness and a problem with authority.

I did say I was a Christian right? If their beliefs are the same then so be it. I do not know much of their beliefs and I can only keep up with one.

So all Christians do not have Morals, Honesty, and Wisdom and are only inquisitive mindless people that have a problem with authority??

Before I post anything else did I interpret your post wrong?

Obviously, you did. I never said Christians didn't have these values. I just don't agree, that they are "God-given" traits.

Your confusion over my post is even more obvious if you interpreted it in such a way that I think anyone could be mindless and inquisitive at the same time.

If you believe that you are given traits by God, I would assume that you also dismiss evolution, and therefore mankind begins and ends with the traits given to Adam and Eve. Were they honest, moral, and wise? I don't know about honest, but why would they need any morals in the Garden of Eden? As for being wise, well obviously to ignore God's one restriction wasn't very wise.

The only traits I see man being given by God then are inquisitiveness, and a problem with authority. They want to know what the tree of wisdom has for them, and they are willing to defy God to find out.

Since you have no desire to understand other possible religions or philosophies, I won't trouble you with the likes of Hobbes and Locke and their take on the nature of man.

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Originally posted by tada:

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:

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Originally posted by tada:


However, I will not accept it not being taught in school. It is part of history is it not? It is what our country was founded upon is it not? Why do we have "In God We Trust" on our currency?

That religion has played a part in history is undeniable. And it's role, good and bad, certainly should be taught in history classes. But to teach a particular religion in public schools is clearly wrong, and just plain unconstitutional. The country was founded because our founding fathers felt the need to divorce themselves from King George and England, mostly over financial issues, and not over any religious dispute. In God We Trust wasn't put on our currency until the Civil War: http://www.ustreas.gov/educati...n-god-we-trust.shtml.

Maybe we need to reprint the money and put "In Obama We trust" then.

You asked why "In God We Trust" is on the money. I just provided you with the official answer. Just because the answer doesn't prove your point, don't go all ridiculous.

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:

How do I know God is real? To date, there are about 1800 Bible prophecies which have been fulfilled. God has never been wrong; no prophecy which was to be fulfilled has failed to be fulfilled. Do you have any concept of how large a number it would take to represent the statistical probability of 1800 fulfilled prophecies?


Bill

Bill, I can't believe you are pulling the fulfilled prophesies bunk out of the closet again. I guess there has been enough time since the last go around that you think you can pull it out and no one will notice.

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Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

Why don't you allow Him to do this? Today, right now, would be a good time to make that commitment.

BILL! Nagel is a Christian.
He was simply saying that Faith is believing in the absence of evidence.
We have no hard proof- otherwise the debate would be over.

Shame on you VP. The Bible proves itself to be the literal Word of God, therefore God has been proven. Iron clad logic.

And of course by saying that he only believes in God, Nagel isn't up to Bill's level of self-righteousness, and is wholly deserving of a reprimand from the Saint himself.

Get with the program, won't you?

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Originally posted by Bill Gray:

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Originally posted by thenagel:
I BELIEVE God is real, and that He loves us.

Hi Nagel,

Are you saying you believe "intellectually" that God real? Even Satan can verify that. Intellectually Satan KNOWS God is real. But, he is not a believer -- he does not believe "spiritually."

Or, are you saying that you believe spiritually that God is real -- that you KNOW you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

what a silly idea.

unlike you, bill, i believe with my heart, my mind, and my soul that God is real. i've sppoken to him. heard his voice. i'll be honest and admit i don't know wether he was wearing his God the father hat or his jesus the messiah hat... i tend to think the latter, but it's not really all THAT significant.
i believe in him, and have faith in his existance and in his good intentions for us (in the long run... sometimes things suck before you get to the good bits.)

i'll try and phrase this in a way you cna understand.
you won't accept it, that's a given - i'm not worried abotu that anymore, i'm just trying to figure out a way to say things so that you cna at least say ' oh, i see what you mean and understand your idea, even tho i think you're dead wrong.

we cannot KNOW, intellectually, that God is real. there is no hard demonstrable proof we can point to, without falling back on articles of faith.

i cannot show billy joe or deep.... or b50, veep, or YOU a fingerprint and say ' this is God's, he left it on the window when he came by last night'.
i CAN hold up a sharpie marker and show everyone 'this marker is red.' and demonstrate that indeed, the marker IS red, even if there are people in the crowd who previously believed the marker was blue, and to the couple of people that said there was no marker at all.

through demonstration and hard physical proof, we can KNOW the marker is there, and that it is red.

we cannot KNOW that God is real with the same hard factual proof.
we can believe, intellectually, and have faith, that allows us to 'know' spiritually. that He is real.

i believe in God and His Son, Bill.... but you can't PROVE even to me that he exists, useing only physical evidence.
what color is his hair? what color are HIs eyes? what size shoes does is wear? is he a righty or a lefty? what's his favorite color? favorite song? favorite flower?
does He enjoy playing pingpong? if he loves us and wants us all to be happy, why did he create justin beiber?

you can't PROOVE, intellectualy, physically that god is real - any more than billy joe, the poster formerly known as deepfat, dawkin, hitchens and stephen hawking can prove that He isn't.

you have what you believe to be proof, spiritually, so that makes Him real to you. they think that have proof that suggests tha He isn't there at all, so that makes him a fairy tale to them.
however, at least with billy joe, they are honest enough to admit they *might* be wrong about the whole thing. they are pretty solid certain they are right... but even 1 1000th of a 10th of a percent of posibility is enough for an honest man to say that he isn't 100% sure. ( i don't know deepfat well enough to inclued him in that statement)

i believe in God just as strongly as i believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
however, i freely admit that there could be an overnight nova, a galaxy size rock could hit the sun form the back side and we never see it. a jupiter sized comet could plow into us overnight - and while the sun technically WOULD rise, it wouldn't be relevent to us, as a race.
any number of things MIGHT happen to prevent us form seeing another sunrise.
but, i believe the sun will rise tomorrow jus tthe same.
same thing with god - i admit the possibility i could be wrong, but even so, i believe in Him just as strongly as i believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
i believe in God almost as mush as i believe in my love for my wife.
and THAT, bill, is really saying something.

quote:

How do I know God is real? To date, there are about 1800 Bible prophecies which have been fulfilled. God has never been wrong; no prophecy which was to be fulfilled has failed to be fulfilled. Do you have any concept of how large a number it would take to represent the statistical probability of 1800 fulfilled prophecies?

you've posted this before. verbatim. exactly. do you have this saved as a text file on your PC some place so you cna just copy and paste it as needed?

i don't have a problem with that.. copy/paste saves a lot of time sometimes... i just think it's funny that you so obviously use the tool, and yet i have seen you poke fun at someone else for doign the same thing. i rarly use copy/paste.. .you cna tell.. things would be typed/spelled better if i did.

so.. now i'll repeat what i said the last time your pulled this one out...
what are the 1800 prophecies?

you are making a pretty outlandish claim, lets see some proof. you never offered proof last time... you told me to prove that they wern't fullfilled.
that's a coward's way out. you're making the claim. i don't evne know what the 1800 prophecies ARE, i have no way to prove anything about them one way or the other
so... lets have a little proof.


as you've told others...

Show me...

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Nagel, this proves beyond all doubt that the Bible is valid and real. And, if the Bible is valid and real -- its Author must also be valid and real.

no.. it really doesn't. all it really proves is that it was written by a couple of clever guys. for example, if they had read some or all of the scrolls that made up some or all of the new testament, and maybe a few of the old as well, it would be really seriously easy to write in a few verses here and there talking about stuff that was coming up.. making it look like prophecy, when, in fact, it was just a sleeze who skipped to the back of the book to see how it ended.
for example i could make a prophecy right now - i could say that Veep will defend me, saying that i am christian and that it doesn't make a person non-christian just because they don't adhere to every little thing that YOU believe.
i could prophecy that at some point before this post is over i'll type 'fettuccini' 5 more times and use the words 'cheeseburger macaroni'.

if you know how the story ends, you can re-write the begining to fulfill all the prophacy you can come up with to stick in.

i'm not saying that's what happened or that my version is the truth, i brought all that up to refute your line above.
all that it proves is that YOU believe it to be true... and we already know that.

[QUOTE]

On top of this, I have felt and seen the working of the Holy Spirit within me -- proof that I am a child of God. And, I could not be a child of God -- if He did not exist.
[\QUOTE]

so have i. still doesn't mean i can offer proof to someone else. unless you can prove it, empirically, demonstrably, then it's not someting one can KNOW, intellectually.
the difference is, i accept that i can not 'know' god is real in the same way i can show others that the marker is red, so i don't say that i KNOW he is there.

i think you are useing the phrase ' i know god to be real' based only on your spiritual belief. ok, that's fine...
however, i am not only a spiritual being. my mind works very well, and i am honest enough with myself to realize i don't know everything. i believe in god, but intellectually i know that my spiritual belief could be flawed.
you let your spiritual self over rule and subjegate every other part of you, to the point, some times, that it prevents you from even being honest with yourself.

i don't need to make the commitment, bill... i already have. and spiritually i know he's real.
but like i just said, no one on this earth at this time can offer cold hard data that physically proves the physical being of God.

so.. i maintain... while i believe him to be real (spiritually) i cannot KNOW that He is real (intellectually) without lying to myself and forcing myself to accept twisted abstract ideas... and i refuse to be a gullible fool... even to myself.

now, if you'll excuse me, i have to go to the store and get stuff for dinner. we're doing grilled chicken in a sweet bbq honey glaze and steamed broccoli, but i'm out of honey, and i need to pick up some velveeta for the cheese sauce for the broccoli. thought about getting stuff for alfredo fettuccini. we have the sauce, but no fettuccini. but we do have whole boxes of large elbow macaroni in the cabinet right now. we could do that i guess... instead of the fettuccini, even tho fettuccini works better for that kinda thing. i guess i can buy the fettuccini.
maybe i should just skip it and do burgers instead. much easier, especially seeing that now i'm a prophet.

I love it nagel!

Even though he says that you are saved by belief in god plus nothing else, he is never satisfied when someone says that they believe in god, but not exactly the same way Bill Gray does.

I think that is one of my biggest issues with Bill, he constantly contradicts himself and when called on it, just starts a new thread about something totally different or the same subject with his own spin.

Bill, I think most everyone here would rather have good honest discussions with you than constantly argue with you. It only takes you being a bit more humble and willing to say that your way is not necessarily the only way. Is that possible? Can you do it? I hope so. I hate a mob mentality. I don't want to be a part of anything like that, but when the majority of the people are right, what can I do? Disagree just to disagree, even if I agree with their stance. That would be silly. So please do consider trying to be easier to get a long with.

If for nothing else, so that we don't have to have anymore polls about Bill Gray.

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And of course by saying that he only believes in God, Nagel isn't up to Bill's level of self-righteousness, and is wholly deserving of a reprimand from the Saint himself.

HAHA! I guess he is.
Nagel, how could you!!!!
You....you.......ordained minister, you!!!!

Nagel that was great.

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:

quote:

Originally posted by tada:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation.

These are traits that are embraced by Buddhists, Hindus, and many other religions and non-religious peoples. To call them "God given" is based on your own bias, and is in my opinion, incorrect. If you are a Christian, the only God given traits I can see are inquisitiveness and a problem with authority.

I did say I was a Christian right? If their beliefs are the same then so be it. I do not know much of their beliefs and I can only keep up with one.

So all Christians do not have Morals, Honesty, and Wisdom and are only inquisitive mindless people that have a problem with authority??

Before I post anything else did I interpret your post wrong?

Obviously, you did. I never said Christians didn't have these values. I just don't agree, that they are "God-given" traits.

Your confusion over my post is even more obvious if you interpreted it in such a way that I think anyone could be mindless and inquisitive at the same time.

If you believe that you are given traits by God, I would assume that you also dismiss evolution, and therefore mankind begins and ends with the traits given to Adam and Eve. Were they honest, moral, and wise? I don't know about honest, but why would they need any morals in the Garden of Eden? As for being wise, well obviously to ignore God's one restriction wasn't very wise.

The only traits I see man being given by God then are inquisitiveness, and a problem with authority. They want to know what the tree of wisdom has for them, and they are willing to defy God to find out.

Since you have no desire to understand other possible religions or philosophies, I won't trouble you with the likes of Hobbes and Locke and their take on the nature of man.

Yes there are certain parts of evolution that cannot be denied. However, where is the missing link between monkeys and modern man? What did monkeys evolve from? Give me an evolutionists lesson on evolution. To my knowledge the missing link has not been discovered and may never be. Even if it is found it still would not shake my belief in God nor would it shake a Muslim's belief in Allah.
I understand other religions perfectly fine and I also understand that they could give a rip about Christianity or other religions except their own. It is what they believe!

tada,

Here is a good place to learn about evolution.

Faq about evolution

Be sure and click on the "learn more" at the end of each question/answer.

I hope this help.

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Originally posted by tada:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

quote:

Originally posted by tada:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:

Honesty, Morality, and Wisdom are God given traits passed down from generation to generation.

These are traits that are embraced by Buddhists, Hindus, and many other religions and non-religious peoples. To call them "God given" is based on your own bias, and is in my opinion, incorrect. If you are a Christian, the only God given traits I can see are inquisitiveness and a problem with authority.

I did say I was a Christian right? If their beliefs are the same then so be it. I do not know much of their beliefs and I can only keep up with one.

So all Christians do not have Morals, Honesty, and Wisdom and are only inquisitive mindless people that have a problem with authority??

Before I post anything else did I interpret your post wrong?

Obviously, you did. I never said Christians didn't have these values. I just don't agree, that they are "God-given" traits.

Your confusion over my post is even more obvious if you interpreted it in such a way that I think anyone could be mindless and inquisitive at the same time.

If you believe that you are given traits by God, I would assume that you also dismiss evolution, and therefore mankind begins and ends with the traits given to Adam and Eve. Were they honest, moral, and wise? I don't know about honest, but why would they need any morals in the Garden of Eden? As for being wise, well obviously to ignore God's one restriction wasn't very wise.

The only traits I see man being given by God then are inquisitiveness, and a problem with authority. They want to know what the tree of wisdom has for them, and they are willing to defy God to find out.

Since you have no desire to understand other possible religions or philosophies, I won't trouble you with the likes of Hobbes and Locke and their take on the nature of man.

Yes there are certain parts of evolution that cannot be denied. However, where is the missing link between monkeys and modern man? What did monkeys evolve from? Give me an evolutionists lesson on evolution. To my knowledge the missing link has not been discovered and may never be. Even if it is found it still would not shake my belief in God nor would it shake a Muslim's belief in Allah.
I understand other religions perfectly fine and I also understand that they could give a rip about Christianity or other religions except their own. It is what they believe!

Since I don't normally read the post before I read the background above, I didn't even realize you were addressing me.

You apparently bring so much bias to what you read that you skew my statements into complete incomprehensible babble. I'll try to speak more plainly.

My reference to evolution was just to establish a basis for the discussion. So we agree that you don't believe in evolution, and that you believe there are God given traits. That is the premise that you are working from. I don't require you to believe in evolution to poke holes in your theory.

You say:

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If their [Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions] beliefs are the same then so be it. I do not know much of their beliefs and I can only keep up with one.

Then you say:

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I understand other religions perfectly fine

Which is it?

Sigh.
Since you love poking holes in everything that is written and I am not trained to do such I will bow out of this conversation. You can believe what you want. We will all find out who had the correct answer when we pass on. If you are correct then we will be with the monkeys and Chimps in peace. If I am correct we will hopefully be with God in heaven at peace.

No, Tada, I don't love poking holes in everything that is written, just in the ridiculous.

I sincerely hope you find peace even before your death.

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
No, Tada, I don't love poking holes in everything that is written, just in the ridiculous.

I sincerely hope you find peace even before your death.

I already have found peace, it seems to me that you are the lost soul still searching for something to believe in. So back at ya.

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
No, Tada, I don't love poking holes in everything that is written, just in the ridiculous.

I sincerely hope you find peace even before your death.

Crust,

Do you decide on your own what is ridiculous or do you follow the consensus of some group?

I speak for no one but myself. You?

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Originally posted by tada:

quote:

Originally posted by CrustyMac:
No, Tada, I don't love poking holes in everything that is written, just in the ridiculous.

I sincerely hope you find peace even before your death.

I already have found peace, it seems to me that you are the lost soul still searching for something to believe in. So back at ya.

Good for you, ignorance IS bliss.

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Good for you, ignorance IS bliss.

LOL! This is how you finish?
The same could be said about you. You took the words right out of my mouth. I needed a good laugh. Thank you.

Glad I could help. I always enjoy entertaining simple folk.

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Glad I could help. I always enjoy entertaining simple folk.

Childish.

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Originally posted by Tomme73:
All who are saved are saints. You don't have to die and be declared a saint by the Catholic Church to be a saint. Therefore, yes, saints can help us. Living saints, that is. Jesus is our only Intercessor in Heaven.
Mary did the one thing she could do for us by being obedient to God. After that, things were out of her hands. If Mary was to be of such high esteem as Catholics hold her, I don't think Jesus would have addressed her as "woman" when speaking to her from the cross. Jesus put Himself in direct contact with us. No one else did. Jesus also gave us a direct line to God when He died on the cross. When the temple veil was torn, it was torn from the top down, not the bottom up. Jesus even told His followers how to pray and nowhere in His prayer did He include the words, "Hail, Mary, full of grace." It's just not Biblical. Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.

You are right on Tomme, I agree whole heartidly