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I believe they do. I don't believe they do nothing all day.
Saints help God help us in many ways we never know about.
Mother Mary has been busy every day working with souls for Jesus.
Trying to guide everone to him.
This was told as true. A five year boy went to church every
day and prayed to Jesus for a new bike for christmas. Every day.
ten days later, Christmas morning, No bike. So back to church to
pray, and before he left the church he went to Jesus and said
" I told your mother". A week later he got his bike. Jesus loves
kind of thing because it put him in direct contact with you.
Which he never gets enough of our attention.
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All who are saved are saints. You don't have to die and be declared a saint by the Catholic Church to be a saint. Therefore, yes, saints can help us. Living saints, that is. Jesus is our only Intercessor in Heaven.
Mary did the one thing she could do for us by being obedient to God. After that, things were out of her hands. If Mary was to be of such high esteem as Catholics hold her, I don't think Jesus would have addressed her as "woman" when speaking to her from the cross. Jesus put Himself in direct contact with us. No one else did. Jesus also gave us a direct line to God when He died on the cross. When the temple veil was torn, it was torn from the top down, not the bottom up. Jesus even told His followers how to pray and nowhere in His prayer did He include the words, "Hail, Mary, full of grace." It's just not Biblical. Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.
quote:
Jesus addressed her as "woman" when speaking to her from the cross


John 19:26-27

Jesus saw his own mother, and the disciple standing near whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son". Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother". And from that hour, he took his mother into his family.
quote:
Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.




Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.
Does the Bible Say to Honor Mary?

Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women” and Mary acknowledges this blessing by saying “all generations shall call me blessed” (Luke 1:48).

Both women realized that Mary was uniquely blessed because she was entrusted with the honor of carrying God-in-human-form, Jesus Christ, in her womb. She alone was chosen for the highest honor in the history of the world. Catholics understand that if she is special enough for God to honor her, then she is certainly special enough for humankind to honor her too.

Read more at Suite101: Do Catholics Worship Mary?: Why Do Catholics Make Such a Big Deal about Mary? http://catholic-practices.suit...p_mary#ixzz0xjrmIox9
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
All who are saved are saints. You don't have to die and be declared a saint by the Catholic Church to be a saint. Therefore, yes, saints can help us. Living saints, that is. Jesus is our only Intercessor in Heaven.
Mary did the one thing she could do for us by being obedient to God. After that, things were out of her hands. If Mary was to be of such high esteem as Catholics hold her, I don't think Jesus would have addressed her as "woman" when speaking to her from the cross. Jesus put Himself in direct contact with us. No one else did. Jesus also gave us a direct line to God when He died on the cross. When the temple veil was torn, it was torn from the top down, not the bottom up. Jesus even told His followers how to pray and nowhere in His prayer did He include the words, "Hail, Mary, full of grace." It's just not Biblical. Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.


Tomme73--

You have got to be dead and in heaven to be a saint
no matter what church to go to. everyone in heaven is a saint.

The word "Woman" was a title of respect. this is still 2000 yrs.
ago. nobody is worshipping Mary tomme gray, why don't you get
your facts right or ask.
Hail Mary is Biblical. Iwould never ask you to change
anything, much less your stand
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.




Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.
Does the Bible Say to Honor Mary?

Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women” and Mary acknowledges this blessing by saying “all generations shall call me blessed” (Luke 1:48).

Both women realized that Mary was uniquely blessed because she was entrusted with the honor of carrying God-in-human-form, Jesus Christ, in her womb. She alone was chosen for the highest honor in the history of the world. Catholics understand that if she is special enough for God to honor her, then she is certainly special enough for humankind to honor her too.

Read more at Suite101: Do Catholics Worship Mary?: Why Do Catholics Make Such a Big Deal about Mary? http://catholic-practices.suit...p_mary#ixzz0xjrmIox9


That's great. You, like Catholics almost always tend to leave out the rest of the verse you quoted as "proof" that we should honor Mary.

Here's ALL of it:
Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said:

“ My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”
Now, do Mary's words seem to praise herself or JESUS? Taking bits of verses out of context is not a wise thing to do. Nice try, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Until someone can prove all this Mary worship to me using the Bible, I will not change my stand.




Catholics venerate, or honor, Mary in prayer and song. Some people mistake prayer and veneration for worship, but to Catholics, they aren‘t the same thing. Prayer is simply entering into communication with a holy spirit. Veneration is giving special honor to a saint. Worship is for God alone, and Catholics worship only God through the mass.
Does the Bible Say to Honor Mary?

Critics of Marion devotion say that the Bible doesn’t say to honor Mary, and therefore it shouldn’t be done. However, in Luke’s gospel, Mary’s cousin Elizabeth said “Blessed are you among women” and Mary acknowledges this blessing by saying “all generations shall call me blessed” (Luke 1:48).

Both women realized that Mary was uniquely blessed because she was entrusted with the honor of carrying God-in-human-form, Jesus Christ, in her womb. She alone was chosen for the highest honor in the history of the world. Catholics understand that if she is special enough for God to honor her, then she is certainly special enough for humankind to honor her too.

Read more at Suite101: Do Catholics Worship Mary?: Why Do Catholics Make Such a Big Deal about Mary? http://catholic-practices.suit...p_mary#ixzz0xjrmIox9


That's great. You, like Catholics almost always tend to leave out the rest of the verse you quoted as "proof" that we should honor Mary.

Here's ALL of it:
Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said:

“ My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”
Now, do Mary's words seem to praise herself or JESUS? Taking bits of verses out of context is not a wise thing to do. Nice try, though.


tomme--

I don't think b50m is catholic.

Is there is anything in luke 1:46-55 that is not right?
Do you understand what it says? If it's not right one of you can rewrite
to make right. No body worships Mary.

I don't think you should honor Mary. Please don't.
You seem to be missing the point. I don't recall saying b50m was Catholic. I think she/he tried to explain the Catholic obsession with Mary using some of the same evidence Catholics use to support why they do what they do. The problem is this; when using part of verse of Scripture to support an argument, you have to consider the entire context from which the verse was taken, not just that part of the verse. Mary's words praise Jesus more than anything else: He, His, Him.
If people would push things that aren't Biblically sound as things that are Biblically sound, I wouldn't have a problem. Traditions of men, regardless of how long those traditions have continued, don't make a good argument. "We must be right because we've been doing this for 2000 years." NO! NO! NO!
Another part of my original post was the Biblical fact that followers of Christ are saints, not because the Catholic Church decided, but because Jesus did. We don't have to die to become a saint. Jesus is our ONLY INTERCESSOR IN HEAVEN.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
You seem to be missing the point. I don't recall saying b50m was Catholic. I think she/he tried to explain the Catholic obsession with Mary using some of the same evidence Catholics use to support why they do what they do. The problem is this; when using part of verse of Scripture to support an argument, you have to consider the entire context from which the verse was taken, not just that part of the verse. Mary's words praise Jesus more than anything else: He, His, Him.
If people would push things that aren't Biblically sound as things that are Biblically sound, I wouldn't have a problem. Traditions of men, regardless of how long those traditions have continued, don't make a good argument. "We must be right because we've been doing this for 2000 years." NO! NO! NO!
Another part of my original post was the Biblical fact that followers of Christ are saints, not because the Catholic Church decided, but because Jesus did. We don't have to die to become a saint. Jesus is our ONLY INTERCESSOR IN HEAVEN.


tomme--

The Catholic church doesn't say who is or isn't a saint. I said everybody
in Heaven is a saint. Sometimes the church will declares someone a saint.
Thats nice, But no one is sure thats the case. I find only some truth in
the rest of your post. About as much as you find in me. What you find
biblically sound is opinion on your part as well as mine.
So this NO! NO! NO! may just be something you might want to
read more about. I'm not tell you what to do. But tradition is not
just Catholic. Do whatever you want.
quote:
Mary's words praise Jesus more than anything else: He, His, Him


Absolutely, Tomme!
All Glory and Honor and Praise to God, and God alone! Mary knew that. She also knew that all nations would call her Blessed. Why? Because she found favor with God, and was chosen to carry the savior of the World.
Nobody worships Mary, nor is anyone "obsessed" with her-that I know of...
She is held in high esteem as the Mother of God, and Intercessor for our prayers. She is not diety.
Tomme, that whole passage is even MORE reason to honor Mary. She is saying, "Wow, the greatest thing in the world is God, and look at how he has blessed little unworthy me!" She is HUMBLED that He chose her. She could have gone the other way and thought she was pretty special, but instead she threw all the glory back onto God. That in itself makes her a person to admire and try to emulate.

And we are told to honor our mothers and fathers. How much more then, should we honor this woman whom God chose to be Jesus' mother?
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Tomme, that whole passage is even MORE reason to honor Mary. She is saying, "Wow, the greatest thing in the world is God, and look at how he has blessed little unworthy me!" She is HUMBLED that He chose her. She could have gone the other way and thought she was pretty special, but instead she threw all the glory back onto God. That in itself makes her a person to admire and try to emulate.

And we are told to honor our mothers and fathers. How much more then, should we honor this woman whom God chose to be Jesus' mother?


Admire, yes. Pray to, no. Using your logic, we should honor Job FAR more than Mary. Mary honored God for the good things He had done to/for her. Job honored God despite losing EVERYTHING. I mean, the devil went to God looking for somebody to test and God SPECIFICALLY called out Job, "Have you considered my servant, Job?" WOW!

Sainthood cannot be declared by a person, organization, church, etc. Once you become a member of the family of God, you're a Saint. If you're not a Saint before you die, you will NEVER be one after you die.

I'm really just trying to understand why Catholicism adheres to traditions and, at times, seems to hold those traditions to a higher level of esteem than the Bible.
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.

We squabble and poke holes in each other's religion just to say the way I worship is better than the way you worship. Do we not all read from the same book, the Bible? Who cares if your a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, or any other Christian religion. If the Devil and his minions came to Earth and we were called to fight we might as well impale ourselves on our own swords. We could not even decide who was going to be the first to blow the dang horn to charge forward.
Why would you even pose the question Can Saints Help Us? If you believe it then they will help you. However, you even posting the question casts doubt of their helpfullness in your eyes yet you believe they do. I believe you wanted to start a fight on whether Saints are even relevant to see who else would jump on the band wagon.

My point is why even post the question?

If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Tomme, that whole passage is even MORE reason to honor Mary. She is saying, "Wow, the greatest thing in the world is God, and look at how he has blessed little unworthy me!" She is HUMBLED that He chose her. She could have gone the other way and thought she was pretty special, but instead she threw all the glory back onto God. That in itself makes her a person to admire and try to emulate.

And we are told to honor our mothers and fathers. How much more then, should we honor this woman whom God chose to be Jesus' mother?


Admire, yes. Pray to, no. Using your logic, we should honor Job FAR more than Mary. Mary honored God for the good things He had done to/for her. Job honored God despite losing EVERYTHING. I mean, the devil went to God looking for somebody to test and God SPECIFICALLY called out Job, "Have you considered my servant, Job?" WOW!

Sainthood cannot be declared by a person, organization, church, etc. Once you become a member of the family of God, you're a Saint. If you're not a Saint before you die, you will NEVER be one after you die.

I'm really just trying to understand why Catholicism adheres to traditions and, at times, seems to hold those traditions to a higher level of esteem than the Bible.


Probably for the same reason that fundamentalists accept an omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful god that feels the need to show off for the devil.
quote:
Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.

We squabble and poke holes in each other's religion just to say the way I worship is better than the way you worship. Do we not all read from the same book, the Bible? Who cares if your a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, or any other Christian religion. If the Devil and his minions came to Earth and we were called to fight we might as well impale ourselves on our own swords. We could not even decide who was going to be the first to blow the dang horn to charge forward.
Why would you even pose the question Can Saints Help Us? If you believe it then they will help you. However, you even posting the question casts doubt of their helpfullness in your eyes yet you believe they do. I believe you wanted to start a fight on whether Saints are even relevant to see who else would jump on the band wagon.

My point is why even post the question?

If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.


So, what denomination are you tada? The question is posted for discussion, like all questions. As for the Bible, do you add anything else to your reading or do you ignore anything not actually in the canon?
I am a Christian and I do believe in God and Jesus. What does it matter what denomination I belong to? You believe what you want to believe or wish to not believe. Why question what your beliefs are. To me that is a personal matter and really should be kept to yourself or sought after by yourself not others.
quote:
Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.

We squabble and poke holes in each other's religion just to say the way I worship is better than the way you worship. Do we not all read from the same book, the Bible? Who cares if you're a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, or any other Christian religion.

If the Devil and his minions came to Earth and we were called to fight we might as well impale ourselves on our own swords. We could not even decide who was going to be the first to blow the dang horn to charge forward.

Why would you even pose the question Can Saints Help Us? If you believe it then they will help you. However, you even posting the question casts doubt of their helpfulness in your eyes yet you believe they do. I believe you wanted to start a fight on whether Saints are even relevant to see who else would jump on the band wagon.

My point is why even post the question? If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.

Hi Tada,

Since I do not believe you and I have communicated before; welcome to the Religion Forum. Your post is the only one that makes sense in this discussion. And it is the only reason I have come into this discussion at this time -- to say thank you for your common sense comments.

Like you, I do believe the discussion was begun just to start an argument. And, as you wisely stated, it is NOT the church we attend which makes us Christian believers. It is what is in our hearts. If Jesus Christ is in your heart, you are a believer. If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are a believer.

If a person does not have this relationship -- that person is on the fast track to hell. However, there is still time to jump off the Hell-bound Train and still get on the Glory Train -- if it is done before that last breath in this mortal body. Everyone who gets on that Glory Train to heaven -- is a saint!

Although, I will gently disagree on one statement you made, "If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country." Even with all the dissension between Christian faiths, even with all the cult religions and world religions which only muddy the water, and even with all the atheist/secularist factions trying to destroy all things Christian -- our God is still in charge. And, our Team has already won the war. Today, we are only fighting the skirmishes -- like swatting mosquitos even when you already are protected by insect repellent. Christianity is not dead -- and will never die. We ARE the Winning Team!

Tada, thank you for writing what was on the minds of many Religion Forum readers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.

We squabble and poke holes in each other's religion just to say the way I worship is better than the way you worship. Do we not all read from the same book, the Bible? Who cares if you're a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, or any other Christian religion.


My point is why even post the question? If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.

Hi Tada,

Since I do not believe you and I have communicated before; welcome to the Religion Forum. Your post is the only one that makes sense in this discussion. And it is the only reason I have come into this discussion at this time -- to say thank you for your common sense comments.


Although, I will gently disagree on one statement you made, "If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country." Even with all the dissension between Christian faiths, even with all the cult religions and world religions which only muddy the water, and even with all the atheist/secularist factions trying to destroy all things Christian -- our God is still in charge. And, our Team has already won the war. Today, we are only fighting the skirmishes -- like swatting mosquitos even when you already are protected by insect repellent. Christianity is not dead -- and will never die. We ARE the Winning Team!

Tada, thank you for writing what was on the minds of many Religion Forum readers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Hi tada, Hi ill Will,

Why would you be gentle with him and not everyone? Are we not your so called cousins?

The Universal church will be here till the end of time. Jesus said so, but your
denomination may not, I can't say
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by tada:
Now you all know why atheists make fun of us Christians.

We squabble and poke holes in each other's religion just to say the way I worship is better than the way you worship. Do we not all read from the same book, the Bible? Who cares if you're a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, or any other Christian religion.


My point is why even post the question? If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country.

Hi Tada,

Since I do not believe you and I have communicated before; welcome to the Religion Forum. Your post is the only one that makes sense in this discussion. And it is the only reason I have come into this discussion at this time -- to say thank you for your common sense comments.


Although, I will gently disagree on one statement you made, "If we do not unite as a Christian community, our religion will eventually die out in this country." Even with all the dissension between Christian faiths, even with all the cult religions and world religions which only muddy the water, and even with all the atheist/secularist factions trying to destroy all things Christian -- our God is still in charge. And, our Team has already won the war. Today, we are only fighting the skirmishes -- like swatting mosquitos even when you already are protected by insect repellent. Christianity is not dead -- and will never die. We ARE the Winning Team!

Tada, thank you for writing what was on the minds of many Religion Forum readers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi tada, Hi ill Will,

Why would you be gentle with him and not everyone? Are we not your so called cousins?

The Universal church will be here till the end of time. Jesus said so, but your
denomination may not, I can't say

Hi Vic,

Not sure if Tada understands you -- but, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Would you care to elaborate?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi tada, Hi ill Will,

Why would you be gentle with him and not everyone? Are we not your so called cousins?

The Universal church will be here till the end of time. Jesus said so, but your
denomination may not, I can't say[/QUOTE]
Hi Vic,

Not sure if Tada understands you -- but, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Would you care to elaborate?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill[/QUOTE]

ill will,

I believe you do.
Hi VP and Vic,

Well, Vic, obviously you do not understand what you meant -- for you cannot explain it either. Not a problem. We will just move on.

VP, yes -- the "universal" church -- not the Roman Catholic church. Universal meaning ALL Christian believers, all the saints of God.

We are the Family of God!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP and Vic,

Well, Vic, obviously you do not understand what you meant -- for you cannot explain it either. Not a problem. We will just move on.

VP, yes -- the "universal" church -- not the Roman Catholic church. Universal meaning ALL Christian believers, all the saints of God.

We are the Family of God!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill




Catholic - greek - Universal 5th century The name just stuck. Like the

name Christian stuck.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP and Vic,

Well, Vic, obviously you do not understand what you meant -- for you cannot explain it either. Not a problem. We will just move on.

VP, yes -- the "universal" church -- not the Roman Catholic church. Universal meaning ALL Christian believers, all the saints of God.

We are the Family of God!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

Catholic - greek - Universal 5th century The name just stuck. Like the name Christian stuck.

Hi Vic,

I wasn't questioning the definition of catholic, i.e., universal. I agree it means the worldwide "universal" body of Christian believers.

That would include all Roman Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, non-denominationals, etc. -- in other words, all who, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, believe and receive His "free gift" of salvation.

This is the universal (catholic) church. The Roman Catholic church is but one of many and like all churches -- not all in that church are beleivers.

I am glad we agree.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi VP and Vic,

Well, Vic, obviously you do not understand what you meant -- for you cannot explain it either. Not a problem. We will just move on.

VP, yes -- the "universal" church -- not the Roman Catholic church. Universal meaning ALL Christian believers, all the saints of God.

We are the Family of God!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



ill will,


All I was saying was how the christian church got the name Catholic. Two monks
were walking to another town when one of them realized there were many places
they had been and converted.

They were talking about it, one said, We are becoming true universal. He used
the greek word catholic. They liked the word and it stuck when other people
started using it. That was around the start of the 5th century. Thats all I was
saying.

I obviously know more about this than you do. I understand what I meant.

About 1,000 yrs.later other churches started. If you didn't have such a hate and
foul mouth for the Catholic church you could think more reasonable about things.

You know hardly anything about it. you just hate it because you were told to.
You shoot your mouth off in anger.

Don't discuss anything with me again.
I guess I could apologize for my lack of learnedness. But, what the hay, it's all the same. The TRUE UNIVERSAL CHURCH will need no other name. It will not be called Catholic, it will not be called Methodist,nor Baptist.It will not be related to the Non- Denonational nor will it be called the 1st Christian Church or even the Primitive Baptist Church of Christ, not to mention the FCM that locally we are fond of.Or even the AME the home of many of our brothers of color.

No my friends, at the last call no one church will matter.
What will matter is if your name is written in the Book of Life.
If not He will say, depart, I never knew you.

Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.
quote:
Originally posted by themax:
I guess I could apologize for my lack of learnedness. But, what the hay, it's all the same. The TRUE UNIVERSAL CHURCH will need no other name. It will not be called Catholic, it will not be called Methodist,nor Baptist.It will not be related to the Non- Denonational nor will it be called the 1st Christian Church or even the Primitive Baptist Church of Christ, not to mention the FCM that locally we are fond of.Or even the AME the home of many of our brothers of color.

No my friends, at the last call no one church will matter.
What will matter is if your name is written in the Book of Life.
If not He will say, depart, I never knew you.

Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.




Thats right, If It's christian it's universal. Different churches have different
names. What does that matter? I'm getting tired the old wind bag. It's my fault
for answering him in the first place. Bill Gray stay away.
quote:
Posted 30 August 2010 08:17 PM Hide Post
I guess I could apologize for my lack of learnedness. But, what the hay, it's all the same. The TRUE UNIVERSAL CHURCH will need no other name. It will not be called Catholic, it will not be called Methodist,nor Baptist.It will not be related to the Non- Denonational nor will it be called the 1st Christian Church or even the Primitive Baptist Church of Christ, not to mention the FCM that locally we are fond of.Or even the AME the home of many of our brothers of color.

No my friends, at the last call no one church will matter.
What will matter is if your name is written in the Book of Life.
If not He will say, depart, I never knew you.

Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.


That's the most common sense I've read on here in a long time! Smiler Well done.
it all has to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the Words and Instruction of Jesus.
There is one body. Those who thrive on dividing it will pay their dues.....
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
All I was saying was how the christian church got the name Catholic. Two monks were walking to another town when one of them realized there were many places they had been and converted. They were talking about it, one said, We are becoming true universal. He used the greek word catholic. They liked the word and it stuck when other people started using it. That was around the start of the 5th century. Thats (sic) all I was saying.

I obviously know more about this than you do. I understand what I meant. About 1,000 yrs. ater other churches started. If you didn't have such a hate and foul mouth for the Catholic church you could think more reasonable about things.

You know hardly anything about it. you just hate it because you were told to. You shoot your mouth off in anger.

Don't discuss anything with me again.

Hi Vic,

First, we will deal with your history lesson. Below are two sources showing the use of the the word "catholic" to mean the "universal church" dating back almost into the first century. So, I am not sure who your two monks were -- or where you found your information that the word "universal" was not used for another thousand years. If you have sources to refute what I have shown below, please feel free to share them.

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HISTORY OF ECCLESIASTICAL USE OF "CATHOLIC"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

The word catholic is derived (via Late Latin catholicus and French catholique) from the Greek adjective katholikos, meaning "universal".

A letter written by Ignatius of Antioch to Christians in Smyrna around 106 AD is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans). By Catholic Church Ignatius designated the universal church. Ignatius considered that certain heretics of his time, who disavowed that Jesus was a material being who actually suffered and died, saying instead that "he only seemed to suffer" (Smyrnaeans), were not really Christians. The term is also used in the Martyrdom of Polycarp in 155 AD and in the Muratorian fragment, about 177 AD.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

The word Catholic (katholikos from katholou — throughout the whole, i.e., universal) occurs in the Greek classics, e.g., in Aristotle and Polybius, and was freely used by the earlier Christian writers in what we may call its primitive and non-ecclesiastical sense.

The combination "the Catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110.

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Then, you tell me, "You know hardly anything about it. you just hate it because you were told to. You shoot your mouth off in anger."

Vic, since you appear to be new to the Religion Forum, I will cut you some slack. Possibly you have heard a couple of other contentious ladies saying this. But, as I told them, I will tell you: If you are going to make this accusation; then, please support it with facts. SHOW ME where I have written ANYTHING in anger. I have refuted false doctrine -- and I have shown Biblical reasons for refuting them. That is not anger. That is debate, dialogue.

You say, "You just hate it because you were told to."

No, no one has ever told me to hate Roman Catholics or any other church denomination -- and I do not hate anyone. Yet, I do see, from 23 years of studying the Bible, the fallacy of many of the Roman Catholic doctrines. I do not hate the atheist and secularist; but, I will refute their false teachings also. False teachings and false doctrines are both equally bad -- regardless of whether they come from a church or from world religions such as atheism and secularism.

As a matter of fact, you will notice that, even though you have made a number of false accusations against me personally -- I do not hold any anger toward you nor am I responding in anger. I am only asking you, in a civil way, to show me proof of any hatred and anger in my posts.

And, you tell me, "You know hardly anything about it."

That could be true. I will admit that many folks know more about Roman Catholicism than me. However, I did attend and worship in the Roman Catholic church for about 20 years. So, that means I was probably in the Roman Catholic church -- before your mom bought you your first Prom Dress.

Finally, you tell me, "Don't discuss anything with me again."

On second thought, maybe you were not old enough for a Prom Dress at that time.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by themax:
I guess I could apologize for my lack of learnedness. But, what the hay, it's all the same. The TRUE UNIVERSAL CHURCH will need no other name. It will not be called Catholic, it will not be called Methodist,nor Baptist.It will not be related to the Non- Denonational nor will it be called the 1st Christian Church or even the Primitive Baptist Church of Christ, not to mention the FCM that locally we are fond of.Or even the AME the home of many of our brothers of color.

No my friends, at the last call no one church will matter.
What will matter is if your name is written in the Book of Life.
If not He will say, depart, I never knew you.

Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.

MAX, A REALLY BIG "AMEN!" ON THAT!

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quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
Now that my friends, is a sobering thought.
I can only say read your bible, do not rely on preachers. Rather listen to what the Spirit says to you and follow the words the Lord has spoke.


And THAT is the truth!


Agreed but....
We will always need a Preacher, Priest, Rabbi, etc, to spread the word. Now granted there are a lot of those that are not suited for the job and do take advantage of Christian's good will.
I see clearly INVICTUS's post clearly and know what he means. He may be right in his assumption and only time will tell. However, the universal Christian will not die out. Believe it or not we have a religious war going on in the U.S. today and probably has been going on for a number of years. Only receently has it appeared so blantantly that it cannot be overlooked. Face it, our religion is under attack.

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