Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by gbrk:
I'm just curious <snipped for brevity>
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I didn’t say I believed those people to be Christians. My questions “ Do you know them? Have you come across them too?” were to see if other people knew those kind, if they ever came across them.
I think churches are filled with “Christians” contrary to what Christ taught because I’ve seen them in church. Those kind are in every church, not just a few. I’m not saying all the people are not Christians but I believe the majority are not.
I don’t believe that God is the only one to know if someone is a Christian. Even the Bible says you can know a Christian by their fruit. Those people that claim to be a Christian, I watch/listen very carefully. If they truly are, I will see it/feel it.
And you are wrong when you say none of us can really judge if a person is or is not a true or real Christian. Matthew, John, & 1 Cor. says you ARE to Judge a Christian's Fruit / Actions. You are to make sure they're NOT Teaching & Living Contrary to God's Word. Apostle Paul judged 8 Times, & Named the Names of 8 False Converts in 2nd Timothy. In Matthew, Jesus warned to be, "BEWARE of the FALSE PROPHETS, that you will KNOW THEM (identify them) by their FRUITS.
I never said it was wise to base our decisions about Christ upon those same group of people. But sadly, there are people like me that doubt the true existence of God & the truth of the Bible because of those people. If that’s the case, why would anyone want to believe a book that promoted, at one time, murder, rape, owning slaves, etc.? Why would I want to have faith in someone that tells me if I don’t walk that very thin line, that He has a fire pit He will throw me into. I've lived it & it became a miserable existence.
Before you put words there that I didn’t say, please read my post carefully.
Yes I have seen the type of people you mention and hopefully many that are guilty of such are in Church for the right reasons or benefit from being in Church and find God's direction for them. And yes we are told to make judgments, as Christians, but the judgments we are to make are against those who claim Christ name and yet do opposite of what Christ teaches. In other words we, Christians, are to judge the fruits of others to insure that they are representing Christ accurately and not profaning the gospel and acting contrary to God's word.
It is for that reason that Paul approved the removal of a man, in Corinth, from the Church for living against what was taught while claiming Christ name (1 Corinthians 5:1-5). Paul also states and highlights those "FRUITS" of the Holy Spirit that should distinguish a true Christian in Galatians 5:22-25. Churches are a place for those seeking God to come, a place for those controlled by Sin to come to find Salvation and freedom, a place for Christians to come and fellowship with like minded believers and to be prompted to study. Personal growth and enrichment and maturity though is found in personal study and learning and not from setting in the Church, not to say some people cannot learn some things from within Church.
I still say, and believe, that only God and the individual really knows if the person is saved or not and while Christians are encouraged to test those that bring unto us the message of Christ to make sure they are true to the scriptures and we are to judge those who claims Christ name to insure that the Church is representative of Christ we are not to judge those outside the Church, those who are non-Christians as to where they are Saved or not. The encouragement for Christians to Judge others, within the Church, is to keep the Church pure and representative of Christ, true to His word and what He taught and true to Scriptures.
As for the statement you made, regarding the Bible, " why would anyone want to believe a book that promoted, at one time, murder, rape, owning slaves, etc.? " Where do you believe the Bible promotes, encourages, demands that God's believers rape, make others slaves or murder people? I will say that there are documented History of Israel's past and God has instructed Israel, at times of battle with other nations who were enemies of God, disbelieved God and offended God to totally eliminate that nation or people but in doing so they were carrying out the Judgment of God upon those nonbelievers and enemies of God and Israel. I'm not aware though of anywhere that rape or the murder of innocents is encouraged.
There are, though, those who have died under God's Judgment and account of God's wrath such as in Sodom and as with Noah and the flood and other campaigns of Israel. As for slavery the Bible does dictate certain ways to act and behave toward slaves but that's a function of government and how it's carried out toward the citizens of Israel some of which were slaves. I don't know of any scripture that says make these your slaves. If there is any it may have to do with those captured in battle against Israel to enslave them for a time rather than kill or eliminate them. The Bible also says mankind is born into slavery to sin but the hope and goal is that mankind will be free through Christ Blood and be Saved from that slavery status, unto sin.
As for basing decisions, about God, on men or people in Church, I didn't mean to indicate that I felt you were doing so for only you know if you are doing that and that's not a judgment I should even make. I was making a statement though that I feel some people do that though and allow their feelings about specific people or Church members to influence their feelings and beliefs about God.