Cool. I wondered when some of those got started.

It would be my guess that if the Catholic church is the only one founded by Jesus Christ, then all those others ain't worth the spit it took to build them. They're just a bunch of buildings with a bunch of people that think they're Christians & going to Heaven.

 

Not true semi, there is still the matter of your life and how you lived it.

When Jesus looks at your heart is what makes the difference.

It's who you are.

 It is all about your life and how you live it.

If all you're doing is living for death-'working hard to get to heaven' in hopes of a reward somebody told you about after your death,

what have you done with your life?

 

 If you don't use your head-Someone else might. If you're a believer-Somebody else already did.

 

 

Jesus Christ "Church" is a mans heart. Its not a building or a man created religion(doctrine).  What makes me sad is there are quite a few people that claim to "doctrine" people of man made salvation when they are missing Christ and using interpretations to extremes to prove there point while in the mean time driving people away from Christ.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

 

 

-----------------------------------

Sorry man, English is not best subject.

 

Btw, is that a pear or a banana pepper or either?

 _________

Then what would it matter which church Jesus built?

************

That would be the only Church Jesus created as told in the Bible.

Jesus organized his Church the way he wanted and the way he taught his

apostles to maintain it.

I believe it matters to Jesus.

Where does it say in the Bible, it's alright to start forty thousand different

man made denominations.

But Jesus knows we're human and we act like humans, and the reason we

have free will and Heaven and Hell and the mercy of God  

 

 

i don't claim to know the background on any 'denomination'. i do know that i am simply a Believer in Christ, that He is the God of all creation, and i follow the principles in His Word, the Bible.

 

our purpose on earth is to share His love and follow His example, so that others will desire to know Him. the rest is up to God.

 

everyone who believes in this same God and acknowledges Him as their Lord, becomes His sons and daughters. those believers are all in the same family of God, and heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven. it's all in your identity, knowing who you are thru Him.

 

for those who believe in separation by denominations, i'll leave up to God to sort out....  

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I'm not a fan of denominations, but when the sorting starts there are no

denominations, just you and God and your face hanging out.

 

 

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

Not true semi, there is still the matter of your life and how you lived it.

When Jesus looks at your heart is what makes the difference.

It's who you are.

_________ 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Then what would it matter which church Jesus built?

************

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

That would be the only Church Jesus created as told in the Bible.

Jesus organized his Church the way he wanted and the way he taught his

apostles to maintain it.

I believe it matters to Jesus.

Where does it say in the Bible, it's alright to start forty thousand different

man made denominations.

But Jesus knows we're human and we act like humans, and the reason we

have free will and Heaven and Hell and the mercy of God

_______ 

The Church of Christ would argue with you there because they say theirs is the only church.

 

If Jesus organized a church the way He wanted, which you say is Catholic, & how He wanted it maintained, these Pastors of other denominations that claim God called them to preach, is actually lying. Why would He call a man to Pastor a church that He Didn’t create?

 

Why would it matter to Jesus where someone goes to church if it’s the heart that matters to Him?

I wasn’t implying that the Bible says it's ok to start forty thousand different man made denominations. The reason I asked what would it matter which church Jesus built is because you said the difference is that Jesus looks at a person’s heart, that it's who you are.

If He looks at the heart, then why would He create one church? Does that not indicate that the church is the most important?

 

I’m not trying to pull a Bill Gray in questioning you to be rude or ugly. I’m sincere in wanting to know.

I find many things interesting that is said here & it sometimes brings questions to mind. 

 

 

 

 

Semi I understand what you are saying-they can't all be right- right? My opinion is this- Christ Instituted his church while He was on earth- people found fault with it (we do with everything, right?) So the spinoffs began and continue. I once asked a very wise man about this- and he explained that within every Christian denomination there is Truth- I mean, we all read the same Word (but some of course rejected by some Protestants) we all love the same God- so God will look with favor on all those who speak and teach Love in His Name- But, there is MORE truth (ie sacraments instituted by Christ in the catholic and orthodox churches). So as Catholics, we don't believe we are the only ones who "have it right" but we can say we have more fullness of truth. I know I will likely get pounded for saying so, but of I didn't believe it, I wouldnt belong.

__________________

The Roman Catholic Church has often been very ungodly and at odds with the teachings of Christ.  Just ask Martin Luther.  Or Galileo.  Or the mothers of the more recently abused children.

Crusty nobody in their right minds supports the church and how they handled the scandal. But I am talking about the church as it was instituted by Christ- not about how it's been tainted by people.

I agree with Veep, I'm a catholic because I want the "fullness of faith". 

I believe the fullness of faith is found in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the Heavenly Father. The rituals and sacrements are a part of worship, but I think the relationship with Father & Son is more important. I'm not criticizing the rituals & sacraments, I think they are important, especially Holy Communion.

Vic,

 

Your chart seems rather self-serving to the Catholics, don't you think?  Have you ever seriously studied the early evolution of the Church?

 

First, the Bible is of little use in determining any sort of history.  To the extent it is, some of the Epistles of Paul seem to be genuine.  This is faint praise, since Paul was almost totally ignorant of the Jesus of the Gospels.  There's a reason for this: The Gospels were written after Paul's spectral introduction and conversion.  The Gospels were written to fill in the gaps of this character around whom a church has been cobbled together by Paul.

 

If you know anything about the seminal church, you'll know that without Paul, there would be no church.  To say Jesus established the Church is from the Gospels, and they are not valid historical sources.

 

DF

How do you arrive that Paul knew little about Jesus? Paul spent his life on missions teaching others about the life of Jesus and calling them to conversion. James (the Just) and Peter also did the same- as documented by letters and as witnessed and passed down- Have you seen the signs of early Christianity in the places that St Paul taught? I have. If you look and study the history in the area, it is really clear that the Apostles dedicated their life to spreading the Word of Christ. I don't think anyone could, or should try to negate historical facts- whether or not one accepts Jesus as the Messiah is one thing- but to refute history is beyond me- I don't get it....

 

I agree with you completely.  As long as one has a personal saving relationship with Jesus Christ, and realizes and acknowledges Him as his/her only way to eternal salvation -- then, the rest, i.e., rituals and traditions, are just icing on the cake of worship.  If these things makes a person, who is already saved, feel closer to God -- then, by all means, let him/her use those rituals and traditions in a worship service.

 

It is much like speaking in tongues; while I realize that tongues is Biblical, it is not for everyone.  I do not speak in tongues and do not feel a need.  Since God created all languages and is fluent in all of them -- why do I need to come up with some unknown tongue to communicate with Him?  But, on the other hand, if speaking in tongues makes a person feel closer to God -- then, by all means, do it.

 

The way we do it in the church I attend is best for me.  We have a simple worship service beginning with prayer, then worship in music, worship in giving (voluntary, not mandatory), worship in greeting one another and new visitors, a sermon where we all grow more mature as we learn God's Word -- and then worship in fellowship, where we have an opportunity to visit with Christian brothers and sisters we may not have seen all week -- while we are enjoying our food fellowship (which is a big part of the Filipino Christian community). 

 

This very closely follows the template set forth in Acts 2:42, "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer."   This is how the Christian church begun on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD worshiped -- simple, pleasing to God, an act of worship and obedience done by simple, Christ-loving people.  And, this is the way that I am most comfortable worshiping my God.  

 

Yet, if, for others, it helps them to feel closer to God if they have rituals, traditions, robes and holy attire, a large leadership hierarchy, speaking in tongues, or whatever -- then, go for it -- as long as they keep Jesus Christ first and foremost in their walk and in their worship.

 

I suppose we could adapt the old secular acrostic KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) to describing the best Christian worship -- KISS (Keep It Simple while Sharing God's Word).   Another acrostic I find helpful in guiding our walk with Christ is:  JOY - Jesus first, Others second, then Yourself. 

 

And, Scripture verses/passages which I find most applicable in my Christian walk are:

 

John 14:6, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

 

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Chick,

Without realizing it, you have hit upon one of the biggest problems in the Christian church.  You ask, "Why would it matter to Jesus where someone goes to church if it’s the heart that matters to Him?  I wasn't implying that the Bible says it's okay to start forty thousand different man made denominations.  The reason I asked what would it matter which church Jesus built is because you said the difference is that Jesus looks at a person's heart, that it's who you are.  If He looks at the heart, then why would He create one church? Does that not indicate that the church is the most important?"

The only thing which can make a person a Christian is what is in the heart.  Or, to put it more clearly -- Who is in the heart.  If a person sincerely and truly has Jesus Christ in his/her heart -- that person is a Christian believer and is saved.  It does not matter which Christian church the person attends; nor whether their leader is called pastor, teacher, elder, bishop, priest, or pope.

The Christian church was begun on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD, when the 120 disciples had been obedient to the command given them by Jesus when He ascended -- that they should wait in the Upper Room until the promise from God, the Holy Spirit, would come upon them.  Those 120 disciples, men and women -- apostles and other disciples, occupied themselves with prayer, worship, and fellowship in the Upper Room for ten days.

And, then the Holy Spirit came upon them, indwelled them, and empowered them -- as we are taught in Acts 2.  This was the beginning of the Christian church, the body of Christ Followers.  Then, the apostles, and possibly even other disciples (we are not told exactly who) went outside the Upper Room and began to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with those in the street who had been drawn by the supernatural noise they had heard.

That day, with the teaching of the apostles and disciples, in the many languages of all those present, another 3000 people became part of the body of Christ, the church.

This is how the Christian church fellowship began -- simply sharing the Gospel with folks, being in fellowship and prayer with those who also believe, and, together, worshiping our God.  And, then taking that Gospel out to the streets, to the unsaved of the world -- to bring more of them into the body of Christ, the church.

Then, man's fallen human nature began to take hold and he began adding man-made doctrines and teachings to the simple Christian church begun on the day.  Men began to add rituals, traditions, rules, and regulations.  Men began to disagree on what Scripture taught -- and then men began forming their own churches to teach what they believed Scripture taught.  Instead of doing as the apostle Paul teaches in Acts 17:11, i.e., test all teachings, regardless of who is teaching, against what is taught in Scripture -- everyone went their own way, forming their own churches -- to teach their own interpretation of Scripture.

Paul even warned us that this would happen.  In 2 Timothy 4:1-4 he warns us, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus. . . preach the word; be ready in season and out of season. . .   For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."

Not all who teach other doctrines are truly false teachers or cults.  Many teach true Christian doctrine regarding the deity of Christ, the Triune nature of God, and the sole authority of His Written Word, the Bible.  But, then they teach other doctrines which do not affect a person's eternal salvation -- but, do rob the believer of his/her sense of eternal security in Christ.

And, some, who, while in their hearts truly loving and following Christ -- have been misled by people they have accepted as leaders, leaders who are teaching erroneous Scripture understandings.  And, this can have spiritually harmful results if this leads to the conclusion of teaching doctrines which are not of God.

And, this is why, instead of the pure, simple Christian church begun on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD -- today we have the different variations of the Catholic church, i.e., Roman, Eastern Orthodox, etc., and thousands of Protestant denominations and churches.   You are right -- that Christ began His church in the Upper Room that day -- and then man began to corrupt it.  Man began to add his man-made churches on top of the one begun by Jesus Christ.

It would truly be a blessing to get back to that Day of Pentecost church:  Acts 2:42, "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer" (Acts 2:42).

And, one day, after the Tribulation, when Christ has returned and established His Millennial Kingdom on earth -- for 1000 years we will have a return to that kind of church fellowship.

Thank you, Chick, for this opportunity to dialogue with you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

_______

Without realizing it? Sorry to disappoint you, Billy, but I knew exactly what I was saying.

What makes you think I was having a dialogue with you?

Originally Posted by: Bill Gray

Hi Canade,

while we are enjoying our food fellowship (which is a big part of the Filipino Christian community).

__________

You talk like it's only the "Filipino's" that has food fellowship. I got news for you, they're not.

I would love to know what it is you have against American's & why. You're always pushing the Filipino community as though they are something special, & better than the rest of us.

Hello vp, I hope everything is ok with you. I haven't been here in awhile

and just reading some replies.

All the beliefs of the catholic church have biblical reasons.  A good site is http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

 

 

don't worry, being a catholic doesn't mean you "drive off a cliff"

No, being a Catholic means growing even closer to the Lord. It means peace and reverence and beauty. It means a deeper happiness than I have ever known.

___

 

Following his apparently unscriptural DIVORCE, Bill married a Filipina.  That is how he got so strongly into the Philippine Connection.

Whatever name is placed upon a church, if that church follows the pattern demonstrated in the New Testament, it is the the church that Jesus Christ established and it began on the Day of Pentecost, A.D. 33.  Invictus makes that claim for the Catholic Church, but there is so much within Catholicism that lies far outside the scriptural pattern  that there should be no doubt that it is NOT the church that began in A.D. 33.

**************************************

 

Actually the first Catholic/Christian Church Jesus created was when Jesus

said to Peter in Matt. 16: 16-19.

 

Do you agree with Bill that Jesus lied to Peter, lied to the world, lied to

The Father and to every person for the next 2000 years???

 

Hey gifted ;-) doing great!!! How bout you??

 

 

So true!  I love the Southern Gospel song, "It's Not What's Over The Door" -- for it says it all.

 

IT'S NOT WHAT'S OVER THE DOOR

 

Some people think today, If heaven you would see,
You must belong to their church, Or be lost eternally.
But according to God's word, What He's still looking for,
Is what He finds within your heart, And not what's over the door.

 

Chorus:
It's not what's over the door of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of god,and a heavenly citizen.
As the eyes of the lord look this world o'er, There's just one thing he's lookin' for
Can't you see that's what's in your heart, And not what's over the door.

 

And, if a person truly has Christ in his/her heart -- that person is a saved born-again Christian and will spend eternity in the presence of God.

 

As you and I know, the church begun on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD was not Roman Catholic, not Baptist, not Methodist nor Lutheran.  It was truly the very fist NON-DENOMINATIONAL church!

 

And, then man got busy and cluttered it with all sorts of rituals, traditions, doctrines, and unBiblical dogmas.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Vic,

 

No, but, it is quite obvious that the Roman Catholic church has been deceiving people since it was founded in 321 AD.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Billie,,,Calling Jesus a liar will send you to Hell with the wall.

 

Believe the Bible,

 

You, and another unnamed source, have made this accusation several times before.  Are you suggesting that only white Caucasian people, with white European ancestry -- are Americans?  

 

I have many Friends of Filipino ancestry who were born in America.  I have many Friends of Filipino ancestry who are naturalized Americans.   And, after reading the "American History" and "Our American Government" text books which people immigrating from other nations have to master -- to become naturalized Americans; and after seeing the test all these people, from all the other nations, have to take -- to become naturalized Americans -- I doubt very seriously if most of us born here, as white Caucasians, could pass the test.

 

If we "white Caucasian" Americans had to pass that test -- or be deported to some other nation; I sincerely believe that most of us would be learning another language for our new homes.

 

Do other churches have food fellowship?  No doubt many do.  But, in my past experience, this has usually been limited to coffee, cookies, maybe doughnuts.   In the Filipino churches which I have attended for the past 25 years -- we do not serve snacks -- we serve food.  We believe in feeding the body, so that we can then feed the soul.

 

My Friend, let us put aside, completely, all racial, ethnic, and cultural prejudices and biases.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Hi Vic,

 

How could the church have been established in Matthew 16 -- when the Christian church got its beginning in Acts 2 -- AFTER the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ -- TEN DAYS after the ascension of Jesus Christ?

 

If you will venture to study Acts, you will find that ten days after Christ ascended, while the 120 disciples were waiting, as Jesus instructed them, in the Upper Room -- in prayer and fellowship -- the Holy Spirit came upon them.  And, THIS was the beginning of the Christian church.

 

Almost 300 years later, the Roman Catholic church was begun.

 

My Friend, you need to stop reading all that stuff put out by the Vatican -- and start seriously studying the ONLY writing which is from God -- the Bible.  That is where you will learn the full truth; not from someone who claims to be Christ's infallible Vicar on earth.

 

How can he, the Pope, guide you to eternal life -- since even he does not know is he is saved or not?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Invictus, DIWTOODYWTOOWIAT?