Creation: Gap Theory, 6000 Years, Billions Of Years, Or What?

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another discussion, "Evidence For A Young Earth," our Friend, Nash, tells us, "We know that the Earth is much older than 6 thousand years, we've got cave drawings twice as old as that. We can see the light from stars and distant galaxies that has taken longer than 6000 years to get here. The young earth theory is an attempt to directly refute the idea that 6 days may be a metaphor, thus throwing a monkey wrench in the literal interpretation of the Bible.

We also know that there are flaws in evolution. It explains quite a bit and we have evidence to prove much of the theory, but scientists fill in the gaps with chance and coincidence. I don't know of any other scientific field that relies so heavily on random chance. Usually "good fortune" would be considered a cop out answer in science when used repeatedly and in spite of mathematical odds.

Like with politics, the truth is somewhere in the middle. This is unacceptable by those on both sides of the issue because it would mean they would have to change their thinking about God and existence."


While I agree with you that we cannot be adamant about the earth being only 6000 years old; we do know, from the Bible, that the days of Creation were 24 hour days -- which still maintains the integrity of the Biblical account. What we do not know is the time span involved when we are told, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). At this point, God has not started giving us indications of time, i.e., our linear time (in heaven there is no time; time as we know it, linear time) as a part of creation.

In the King James Bible, the word "day" which in Hebrew is the word "yohm" or "yom," is used a total of 2287 times. Of that total, it was used to mean a solar, twenty-four hour, day 2008 times. It was used to mean daily, ever, year, period, and all other forms of time, a total of only 279 times. So, it is very obvious that the most common usage of the word "day" in the Hebrew or Old Testament is to mean a twenty-four hour day. Thus, the days of Creation were normal solar, twenty-four, hour days.

In Genesis, the word "created" is the Hebrew word bara' meaning to create from nothing -- so, we know that God started from scratch when He created the heavens and the earth. How long He took we are not told; for in Genesis 1:2, we are told, "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

There are some who postulate that this indicates that God had created another world and found it not to His liking -- and therefore, He destroyed that world and began again with our world. This is known as the Gap Theory. Their reasoning behind this belief is that the earth was barren and void -- therefore, it must have been created and destroyed before, making it barren. Yet, the word created, bara" -- means to make from nothing. So, when God created the earth as we know it; it was barren. Then, like a master Artist, He began His master work of art: He began His creation of plants, sun, moon, stars, animal life, and human life -- and, He separated the dry lands from the seas -- giving man, animals, and plants a place to reside. Yes, it began barren, like a blank canvas; but, then His remarkable Creation, His work of art, came to life on His canvas, the earth and all the universe.

The Gap Theory I totally refute and for a good reason. In Genesis 6:6-7 we are told, "The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.'"

God, in Genesis 6, was so fed up with man that He decided to wipe the slate clean and He brought the great flood to destroy everything on earth except Noah and his family. Yet, He made sure that man had a written record of this event; that we might know the full history of His Creation. Now, doesn't it follow that, if God made sure we have a history of this event, Noah's Flood, where He destroyed the earth -- if this had happened before, He would have given us that history also? Yet, we read nothing in His Written Word, the Bible, which tells us of any previous world created and destroyed. Why would He tell of of one destruction; but, neglect to tell us of another. So, no, the Gap Theory is merely the star-dust speculation of "inquiring minds."

So far, we have been told that God created (bara') the heavens and the earth from nothing; a true act of creation. Then, we are told that the earth was formless, i.e., barren, and void -- and there was only darkness. We are not told how long this period lasted; for, keep in mind that there is no time in heaven. So, I imagine that God felt no urgent pressure, time wise, to hurry and get His pet project finished before Friday.

Then, in Genesis 1:3-5, we read, "Then God said, 'Let there be light;' and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

Thus was the creation of linear time: day one.

One argument we get, not only from atheists and evolutionists, but, also from many Christians who are determined to make the Biblical Creation align with the still forming beliefs, theories, and laws of science (we call these folks Progressive Creationists or just another flavor of the Liberal Christians) is: "How could there be light on day one, when the sun, moon, and stars were formed on day four?"

The following excerpts from Pastor David Guzik's (Calvary Chapel) Commentary on Genesis give us a good explanation and answer to this vexing, for some folks, question:

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Excerpt 1:

There was light:
Genesis tells us that light, day, and night each existed before the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-19). This shows us that light is more than a physical substance; it also has a supernatural aspect. In the new heavens and the new earth, there won't be any sun or moon. God Himself will be the light (Revelation 22:5).

Bill Gray Insertion: In John 1:4-5, we read,[i] "In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." Yes, Light is definitely supernatural.

In John 1:8, we read concerning John the Baptist, "He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light."
We all know that John came to testify of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

And, in John 1:9, we read, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

What, or Who, is this Light? It is none other than Jesus Christ -- who has come to light the way for all mankind. The same Light which we read about in Revelation 22:5, "And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever."

Yes, most certainly, light, or Light, most certainly has a supernatural aspect.


The darkness God sent upon the Egyptians (Exodus 10:21) had a tangible quality to it, far beyond what we usually think of as being associated with darkness; it could be felt. This demonstrates a certain supernatural element, which can be related to light and darkness.

So the evening and the morning were the first day: Many wonder if this was a literal day (in the sense we think of a day) or if it was a geological age. Some say that God created the world in six days, and others say He created it in six vast geological ages. Though there is disagreement among Christians on this, the most plain and simple meaning of the text is that He created in six days as we think of days.

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Excerpt 2:

Let the earth bring forth grass:
All this happened before the creation of the Sun (the fourth day of creation, Genesis 1:14-19). This means the plants must have had sufficient nourishment because of the light God had created before the sun and the moon.

Those who propose these days of creation were not literal days, but successive “ages” of slow, evolutionary development have a real problem here. It is hard to explain "how plants and all vegetation could grow and thrive eons before their was a sun and a moon." No modern evolutionist would argue plant life is older than the sun or the moon, but this is what the Genesis record tells us.

Many wonder how the sun, moon, and stars were created on the fourth day when light (including day and night) was created on the first day. Many have suggested the problem is solved by saying these heavenly bodies were created on the first day, but were not specifically visible, or not finally formed, until the fourth. But Revelation tells us of a coming day when we won't need the sun, moon, and stars any longer (Revelation 21:23). There's no reason why God couldn’t have started creation in the same way He will end it.

And it was so: This is the beginning of life on planet earth, directly created by God, not slowly evolving over millions of years.

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Nash, when you say, "Like with politics, the truth is somewhere in the middle" -- I agree with this to some extent; however, to compromise Biblical teaching just to make it fit scientific theories it wrong. We have to see science as a part of the Creation, not a cause of the Creation; where the laws governing all fields of science were created by God -- during that six days of creation.

Once again, while we cannot be adamant about the time period between Genesis 1:1 and "Day One" -- we can be sure that all mankind was begun on Day Six when God "created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" (Genesis 1:27). Therefore, any cave drawings created by man had to be within this time restraint.

And, on Day Four, "God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also" (Genesis 1:16).

I know that you, and all who want to agree with our atheist and secular Friends will say, "But, the stars are light years (millions, billions, of miles) from earth. That light would have had to start traveling toward earth millions of years ago for us to see it now."

Under normal circumstances, that would be true -- by the laws of physics, etc. However, we must keep in mind that there is a higher law at work, the law of God -- and, He did create Adam and Eve as mature adults -- so, why should the star lights be so difficult for Him? Am I saying this is the way it has happened? No. I am just asking -- would it be impossible for God?

So, let me restate my position; for I know "inquiring minds" i.e., Deep, Skeptik, Miami, et al, will be eagerly squirming in their chairs waiting to pounce: I do not know how long a time period existed between Genesis 1:1 and Day One. However, I do not accept, in any form, the Gap Theory -- and, I seriously doubt that God began creation -- then, in a senile moment, forget what He was doing for a few million or billion years -- and, then, suddenly, "Oh, yes, I was in the process of creating. I must get back to it!"

No, I do not believe it happened that way. God began creation, which He could have done in the blink of an eye; and He created the heavens and the earth. The earth was barren and void for some period of time, possibly. We know that Darwinian Evolutionist need this time period to be billions of years -- otherwise, their theory of evolution is out the window. Yet, I seriously doubt that it was that extended period of time; if any time at all.

However, when God began His creation of the earth and all the things involved in making earth a habitable place for man to live; one of the first things He created was linear time; for the sake of man.

From that time, when God began His creation of man, his time, and his habitat; I believe that time period to be in the neighborhood of 6000 years -- give or take a couple thousand.

And, that, my Friend, is history -- or, as we often say: "His Story" -- the Bible. And, that you can take to the bank, the Bank of Eternity.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Original Post
Bill,
From a thread you started before Christmas using me as a scapegoat and that you never came back to.


Link

Posted 24 December 2008 07:12 PM Hide Post

quote:
Assuming the days of Creation are millions of years, instead of 24 hours -- in Genesis 1:11, we read of the Third Day, "Then God said, 'Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them;' and it was so."


Mr Bill, you are a fundamentalist. I am not.
I will not argue every point with you.
If a generation of fungi takes 30 minutes to form and the Giant Redwoods and some species of pine takes 100's of years to reach maturity, then how did they all 'bear fruit after there kind' in 24 hours?

How did enough generations of plants, animals, fungi have enough time to cover the earth in one 24 hour cycle. The Bible only says periods of light and darkness, no time frame. Another scripture tells us that "One day is to God as a thousand and a thousand is as one", paraphrasing.

The greater light we assume is the sun, but the lesser is the moon and does not produce its own light. Since God is all powerful, then one must assume that He simply could have created everything at once, no time passed, or He gave it a start and let things progress. If sun and water was needed first, why create the sun and moon on the fourth day. The order is backwards.
As a fundamentalist, you go with everything created at once. As a biologist, I go with, He started it and then let it progress.
Believing in evolution DOES NOT mean believing man evolved from a monkey. Man has evolved. We have skulls dug up to prove we have at least two distinct ancestors that we call cave men. Your view does not take any science into account so you don't include these.
Lets also examine,"male and female He created them". This could be Adam and Lilith, the disobedient wife. She is not mentioned in the KJV, of course, but she is in other writings. God made her equal to Adam, as the scripture implies. However, she is banished after she refuses to be dominated by Adam, then we later read that God made Eve from Adam's rib to be his subordinate. Why would she need to be his subordinate if Lilith was not there first?
The Bible does not read logically or in sequence, and as had been discussed, either the entire human race is based on incest or Lilith and a demon is the mother of Cain and Abel's wives.
Mr Bill, I love reading your posts, but the fundamentalist view is not the only one. As for other religions, how do I know that Allah is not God or God did not appear to the Greeks as Zeus? How do we know if lesser gods are not angels? How can we judge others when we know that the Books of the Bible were picked over by a group of mortal men with a specific agenda in mind? How can we deny science when most of it was developed by monks and other holy men? I have my view of things, you have yours. LMM



Posted 24 December 2008 07:31 PM Hide Post
Bill,
As you probably know, there are three versions of Genesis, the Hebrew Masoretic Text, the Greek Septuagint, and the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch. Roman Catholics and Protestants (Western culture) accept the Latin Vulgate version translated from the Masoretic Text. This Latin Vulgate is a Fifth Century version of the Bible translated by Jerome as commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382. Eastern Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopic, Jacobite, and Armenian accept the Greek version.

Now if we look at the version accepted in Western Culture we see two stories of creation. One from verses 1:1 to 2:4. The second starts at 2:4 and ends at 2:22. Scholars generally believe the first version is based on a Mesopotamian myth encountered by the Jews in Babylon. The creation account of the world being created in six days did not exist prior to the sixth century BC. The second account predated the first in Judaism.

I believe the Bible is full of many parables attempting to explain that which we do not understand, especially in the Old Testament. It is the faith that is important for it doesn't really matter if it were seven literal days or millions of years.

That, of course, is simply my perspective. It is good to read your perspective and it is wonderful to discuss them. I thought I would share mine with you. I hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Peace be with you. Alabamason




Posted 24 December 2008 09:34 PM Hide Post
Now the rub.
In Genesis Ch1 vs 2. " And the Earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Now we know that " Whatsoever our God doeth, he doeth perfectly". Here we see an imperfect world. The planet earth is not in any habitable condition, and is completely covered with water.

Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it.He hath established it, HE CREATED IT NOT A WASTE, he formed it to be inhabited." Here God himself says that the original creation of the earth was a waste. Somehwere between verses 1 and 2 something happened to render our planet lifeless.

Again in Jeremiah 4:23-26 "I held the earth, and lo, it was WITHOUT FORM AND VOID; AND THE HEAVENS, AND THEY HAD NO LIGHT. i beheld the mountains and lo they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.I beheld and there was no man. and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the citeis thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger."

It is possible from this text we see what happened to the pre-Adamite earth, it was destroyed by sin. Extra
quote:
The darkness God sent upon the Egyptians (Exodus 10:21) had a tangible quality to it, far beyond what we usually think of as being associated with darkness; it could be felt. This demonstrates a certain supernatural element, which can be related to light and darkness.


One just has to shakes one's head when faced with such ignorance. Light is now "supernatural" according to the practitioners of middle age dogma.
Mr. Bill is using a book of mythology, poetry, recitations of even more ancient BS, and fiction to try to make a scientific point.

It is ludicrous on the face of it. And it deserves not only no recognition, but scorn and ridicule as a book of science.

Disqualified.


DF
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Bill,
From a thread you started before Christmas using me as a scapegoat and that you never came back to.
Link

Posted 24 December 2008 07:12 PM Hide Post

quote:
Assuming the days of Creation are millions of years, instead of 24 hours -- in Genesis 1:11, we read of the Third Day, "Then God said, 'Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them;' and it was so."


Mr Bill, you are a fundamentalist. I am not.
I will not argue every point with you.
If a generation of fungi takes 30 minutes to form and the Giant Redwoods and some species of pine takes 100's of years to reach maturity, then how did they all 'bear fruit after there kind' in 24 hours?

How did enough generations of plants, animals, fungi have enough time to cover the earth in one 24 hour cycle. The Bible only says periods of light and darkness, no time frame. Another scripture tells us that "One day is to God as a thousand and a thousand is as one", paraphrasing.

The greater light we assume is the sun, but the lesser is the moon and does not produce its own light. Since God is all powerful, then one must assume that He simply could have created everything at once, no time passed, or He gave it a start and let things progress. If sun and water was needed first, why create the sun and moon on the fourth day. The order is backwards.
As a fundamentalist, you go with everything created at once. As a biologist, I go with, He started it and then let it progress.
Believing in evolution DOES NOT mean believing man evolved from a monkey. Man has evolved. We have skulls dug up to prove we have at least two distinct ancestors that we call cave men. Your view does not take any science into account so you don't include these.
Lets also examine,"male and female He created them". This could be Adam and Lilith, the disobedient wife. She is not mentioned in the KJV, of course, but she is in other writings. God made her equal to Adam, as the scripture implies. However, she is banished after she refuses to be dominated by Adam, then we later read that God made Eve from Adam's rib to be his subordinate. Why would she need to be his subordinate if Lilith was not there first?
The Bible does not read logically or in sequence, and as had been discussed, either the entire human race is based on incest or Lilith and a demon is the mother of Cain and Abel's wives.
Mr Bill, I love reading your posts, but the fundamentalist view is not the only one. As for other religions, how do I know that Allah is not God or God did not appear to the Greeks as Zeus? How do we know if lesser gods are not angels? How can we judge others when we know that the Books of the Bible were picked over by a group of mortal men with a specific agenda in mind? How can we deny science when most of it was developed by monks and other holy men? I have my view of things, you have yours. LMM



Posted 24 December 2008 07:31 PM Hide Post
Bill,
As you probably know, there are three versions of Genesis, the Hebrew Masoretic Text, the Greek Septuagint, and the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch. Roman Catholics and Protestants (Western culture) accept the Latin Vulgate version translated from the Masoretic Text. This Latin Vulgate is a Fifth Century version of the Bible translated by Jerome as commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382. Eastern Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Ethiopic, Jacobite, and Armenian accept the Greek version.

Now if we look at the version accepted in Western Culture we see two stories of creation. One from verses 1:1 to 2:4. The second starts at 2:4 and ends at 2:22. Scholars generally believe the first version is based on a Mesopotamian myth encountered by the Jews in Babylon. The creation account of the world being created in six days did not exist prior to the sixth century BC. The second account predated the first in Judaism.

I believe the Bible is full of many parables attempting to explain that which we do not understand, especially in the Old Testament. It is the faith that is important for it doesn't really matter if it were seven literal days or millions of years.

That, of course, is simply my perspective. It is good to read your perspective and it is wonderful to discuss them. I thought I would share mine with you. I hope you are having a wonderful Christmas.

Peace be with you. Alabamason




Posted 24 December 2008 09:34 PM Hide Post
Now the rub.
In Genesis Ch1 vs 2. " And the Earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Now we know that " Whatsoever our God doeth, he doeth perfectly". Here we see an imperfect world. The planet earth is not in any habitable condition, and is completely covered with water.

Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it.He hath established it, HE CREATED IT NOT A WASTE, he formed it to be inhabited." Here God himself says that the original creation of the earth was a waste. Somehwere between verses 1 and 2 something happened to render our planet lifeless.

Again in Jeremiah 4:23-26 "I held the earth, and lo, it was WITHOUT FORM AND VOID; AND THE HEAVENS, AND THEY HAD NO LIGHT. i beheld the mountains and lo they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.I beheld and there was no man. and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the citeis thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger."

It is possible from this text we see what happened to the pre-Adamite earth, it was destroyed by sin. Extra


SO, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?

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2nd Peter 3:8

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

So if one day to God is a thousand years to us, and we interpret Genesis not as a simplified explanation for ancient tribal Jews, but as literal history, then creation itself took 6000 of our years.

If we arrive at another 6000 years by back dating the ages of Moses, Abraham, Adam, and so on like young earth creationists do, then that means existence is at least 12,000 years old.

So literal interpretation of Bible itself proves young earth creationists wrong.

Like Joy said in a different post, religion shouldn't fear science and science shouldn't fear religion. Neither proves or disproves the other.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
2nd Peter 3:8

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

So if one day to God is a thousand years to us, and we interpret Genesis not as a simplified explanation for ancient tribal Jews, but as literal history, then creation itself took 6000 of our years.

If we arrive at another 6000 years by back dating the ages of Moses, Abraham, Adam, and so on like young earth creationists do, then that means existence is at least 12,000 years old.

So literal interpretation of Bible itself proves young earth creationists wrong.

Like Joy said in a different post, religion shouldn't fear science and science shouldn't fear religion. Neither proves or disproves the other.

Hi Nash,

No, my Friend, that is a reference to the fact that, in heaven, there is no time. We have linear time on earth because we, as mortal humans need it. In heaven there is no time. God is from eternity to eternity.

A great Bible teacher, scientist, and strong Christian -- Dr. Chuck Missler, once made an observation: "Since there is no time in heaven; then, when you die, you will arrive in heaven at the same time as your relative who died twenty years ago."

Now, that does give one food for thought.

So, with God, one day is as a thousand years; and a thousand years is as one day -- because He does not measure in linear times as we do.

No, my Friend, common usage in the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, and common sense, tells us that when God said one day; He meant one lunar day, twenty-four hours.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Then, in Genesis 1:3-5, we read, "Then God said, 'Let there be light;'


Do you ever wonder who he was talking to when he said that?

Deep thought for the day: "To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous
as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." - Cardinal Bellarmine, 1615, during the trial of Galileo.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptik:
quote:
Then, in Genesis 1:3-5, we read, "Then God said, 'Let there be light;'


Do you ever wonder who he was talking to when he said that?

Hi Skeptik,

That one is easy. The same as when He said, "Let us make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness. . ." (Genesis 1:26).

He is a Triune God: Three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- one God. Three distinct, individual Persons in one God. He could have been talking to either of the other two -- or, since He is God -- He could be addressing the universe He was creating. After all, He commands all the elements of the universe -- so, how He does it is of no consequence; except to an atheist who is still trying to do the Atheist Two-Step.

Nice of you to ask.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
ATHEIST TWO-STEP?

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

That one is easy. The same as when He said, "Let us make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness. . ." (Genesis 1:26).

He is a Triune God: Three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- one God.


This is preposterous. How can one being also be three? And for what reason did he decide to be three? (after all, he is omniscient and the creator of himself).

And why was he telling Jesus and the ghost-man anything? If they are one, then why speak to the other?

quote:
Three distinct, individual Persons in one God. He could have been talking to either of the other two


Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps the reason there are "three" is because the ancient nomads who authored the OT thought it made a good story? I doubt it, for that would invoke Occam's Razor, which is the antithesis of all of the nonsense in Genesis.

quote:
After all, He commands all the elements of the universe -- so, how He does it is of no consequence; except to an atheist who is still trying to do the Atheist Two-Step.


If everyone over the past several centuries held your sentiment of "not caring or knowing how the universe works," you wouldn't have that car you drive, that computer you're using, or that medication you take when sick. That's right. We would still be in the Dark Ages living as feudal serfs under the dark umbrella of the Church and its witch and book burnings.

Education is the enemy of the Church, as only the ignorance of the masses allows it control. Sadly, that control has come to an end and will die off completely within the next couple of centuries if the current escalation in the number of "non-believers" continues.
Hi Johnny,

Since you are a New Kid On The Block, I will respond to you one time. First, to tell you that, if you want to come on the Religion Forum and be taken even a wee bit serious -- I would suggest a better posting name.

Second, your questions and comments make it very clear that you have never even seen a Bible. So, let me suggest you go to your nearest Christian book store and buy one. After you have spent some time reading it -- then, please give us your comments.

Right now, you are like the guy who has never in his life seen an automobile -- and you are trying to lasso the sucker and put a saddle on it.

But, being a new fellow; we will just wait for you to get somewhat in line. Then, we will look forward to your dialogues.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
SO, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?

Why do you start a post, ridicule every comment made, ignore all explanations given and then tell everyone, hope I answered all your questions?
You made fun of me in that post, I answered your questions and you have no comeback.
Its useless to even answer any post of yours Bill. You have a completely closed mind and live in your own little world.
quote:
No, my Friend, that is a reference to the fact that, in heaven, there is no time. We have linear time on earth because we, as mortal humans need it. In heaven there is no time. God is from eternity to eternity.


Exactly. God is eternal, a billion years compared to infinite eternity is minuscule. It's nothing, like a single day to us. To condense God to a six day week is to limit Him and His power.

Ancient Israelites had no concept of billions of years, so how do you explain creation to them? You condense it. Today we're able to see just how vast and infinite God really is. We're able to see more of the process of creation. We clearly see that He isn't a microwave popping everything into existence within a week.

Like you said, God doesn't measure time in the same way we do because of our limited understanding. To limit God's creation to a six day week is to do Him an injustice. It brings Him down to our level because billions of years is a hard concept for some to grasp. To discover just how old the earth and universe and the process in which it was created is a small display of just how great God is.

Instead of trying to limit God to fit your understanding, why not just accept the fact that science can reveal how God works. One day to us can be a thousand, a million, or even a billion years to an infinite being.
I'm shocked!
Bill replied to a direct challenge of his "information" with an insult and suggestion to read the very book that is the source of the misinformation.

Amazing how small minds work.

Predictable and comical all in one. I don't know which is funnier, watching Jon Stewart or reading Old man Bill.

Hey Bill - how about you pick up a science book and read IT!
quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyBad***:
This is preposterous. How can one being also be three? And for what reason did he decide to be three? (after all, he is omniscient and the creator of himself).


Welcome to the Forums, Johnny.

This is purely opinion, as the concept is outside what we have experienced. I think they are simply connected in spirit but serve different purposes within the Kingdom of God.

I also wonder if Christians will be connected to them in the same way after death. As 1st Corinthians 13:12 says "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

I recently read "The Shack". Although fictional, the writer paints this connection beautifully, one I could at least get my mind around. Smiler
Johnny wrote:
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Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps the reason there are "three" is because the ancient nomads who authored the OT thought it made a good story? I doubt it, for that would invoke Occam's Razor, which is the antithesis of all of the nonsense in Genesis.


Biblical validation of the "Trinity" is sketchy at best. The word itself doesn't even appear in the bible but is a cornerstone of most Christian belief. It seems to be the only way to reconcile the monotheisitc OT God to the pagan born multi god religion of Christianity.
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Originally posted by LMM:
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SO, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION?

Why do you start a post, ridicule every comment made, ignore all explanations given and then tell everyone, hope I answered all your questions?
You made fun of me in that post, I answered your questions and you have no comeback.
Its useless to even answer any post of yours Bill. You have a completely closed mind and live in your own little world.

Hi LMM,

Once again, I will ask: What is your question?

You copy/pasted parts of post from others; but, you did not state your own question. What were you asking? That was, and still is, my question.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
OK Bill. My questions.
Why was my explanation of the 24 hour day not worthy of even a reply from you?
Do you consider me to be one of the liberal Christians?
Why do you ignore data from multitudes of scientific sources and only use sites that have only your view?
How can you be so sure of yourself to assume you are definitely going to heaven when even the Pope won't make that statement?

Why do you belittle everyone who is not a fundamentalist?

Does God accept Christians brought to faith from women preachers?
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Mr Bill, you are a fundamentalist. I am not.
I will not argue every point with you.
If a generation of fungi takes 30 minutes to form and the Giant Redwoods and some species of pine takes 100's of years to reach maturity, then how did they all 'bear fruit after there kind' in 24 hours?




"Ye do err not knowing the scriptures nor the Power of God".

Have ye never read where Moses put forth a rod in the tabernacle as a test of the priesthood, and in the morning Aaron's rod had budded and put forth almonds? And all this in less than 24 hours.
Then you are saying God altered time to make it happen in 24 hours. Then why allow the rest of time to crawl forth normally or better yet, why do it in stages? Just create everything at once in a second. No 24 hours, no days, no years.
If time is altered then there is no argument for He made a thousand years into one. Which also means by man time, it is a 1000 years.
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Originally posted by LMM:
Then you are saying God altered time to make it happen in 24 hours. Then why allow the rest of time to crawl forth normally or better yet, why do it in stages? Just create everything at once in a second. No 24 hours, no days, no years.
If time is altered then there is no argument for He made a thousand years into one. Which also means by man time, it is a 1000 years.



LMM,
I am sure you will get the chance to ask God that question. The problem with your logic is that you want from the purpose of man's perspective to rationalize and explain all of God's acts. That is impossible, I simply declare God did it, He simply declares He did it, I don't need any explanation. If he did explain it to you, you wouldn't understand it at all, as his wisdom is so much higher than yours. God said it, I believe it, and that is good enough for me. Remember the words of the Apostle, "Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin."
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Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Second, your questions and comments make it very clear that you have never even seen a Bible. So, let me suggest you go to your nearest Christian book store and buy one. After you have spent some time reading it -- then, please give us your comments.


What relevance does the Bible have to science and philosophical inquiry? It is a text written by ancient nomads attempting the best they could, with their limited resources and knowledge, to construct a theology that would explain the world around them and provide a bit of confidence to the people that their culture was superior to the aggressive Egyptians. This was very common in the ancient world (the us vs. them and the "we are the chosen ones" mentality). Every culture has its Bible. (Did you know the Epic of Gilgamesh predates the OT and relays a similar Great Flood story?)

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Right now, you are like the guy who has never in his life seen an automobile -- and you are trying to lasso the sucker and put a saddle on it.


As if one has to be a Bible scholar to understand that the book contains absolutely no scientific relevance.

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But, being a new fellow; we will just wait for you to get somewhat in line. Then, we will look forward to your dialogues.


What's this "we" business? Speak for yourself.
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Originally posted by _Joy_:
Guys, my daughter is getting married this year and I've spent most the day attempting to plan it. You have a keg handy?

Congrats, a keg and a box of Godiva chocolate. DF bringing that.

Joy, will she still be in the military?
I beg your pardon, chocolate and beer go great together. I used to eat a one pound Hershey bar with almonds and drink beer with it every night back when I had a metabolism that worked!

Now its more of one beer and a few Hershey kisses!

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