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Death Penalty: Pro or Con?

CageTheElephantCageTheElephantPost Master
With most of the so called Civilized Nations having banned the Death Penalty, and many seeing the US as barbaric in it's continued usage, though slow in it's carrying out, this has become a political "hot potato", both in the US and abroad.

Should the Death Penalty be used?
If not, why/alternate sentences?
If so, under what circumstances?
Original Post

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DHS-86DHS-86Hall of Famer
Yes, the death penalty should be used. It should be used in all capital offense cases. The sentence should be carried out swiftly with no appeals. Once a person is convicted, without reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers, they should be marched out of the courtroom and straight to the gallows, electric chair, firing squad or some other graphic method of death. This would have to at least deter some criminals who would otherwise commit a crime knowing they, more than likely, would not be put to death. And for all of you thinking, "what about the wrongly convicted?" Well, my thought is that it would most definately make people more cautious of who they kept company with and would make them more aware as to the situations, in which, they let themselves be involved. Just think of how this would help the overcrowding in prisons and the billions it would save annually supporting these lowlife scum.

I think I've found my platform... "DHS- 86 FOR PRESIDENT IN 2012!!!"
K kperk014Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
I believe it should be banned on moral grounds but no chance of parole in 20 years either.

Besides, with so many people being found innocent through DNA and groups like the Innocence Progect, "Tried and Convicted," doesn't mean anything.


And when (God forbid) one of your family members is brutally raped and murdered, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time, won't we poco?
DL Deborah lemonsMember
I totaly agree with people that murder, rape, or any other serious crime, there needs to be some examples set, if you just really kill someone with a gun, knife, or any other weapon no matter you need to spend time in jail and not just a few years if you are sentenced to 15 years you should have to spend the entire 15 years. But I have a brother that was shot and killed man sentenced to 15 years and may only spen 4 or 5 even if it is that long. VERY WRONG!!!!!
L lawguy07Hall of Famer
Until every community is willing to have a prison in their backyard, we can't lock up every criminal for 15, 20 years or more. I also have heard very good arguments on both sides of the death penalty debate. Most defense lawyers oppose it and it's usually based on cost and the chance of wrongful convictions. I also understand the victim's families wanting their retribution. I can listen with an open mind to most sides of the debate but I don't think we should ever be in a rush to execute people. I'm not saying the appeals process couldn't be streamlined a lot. But the suggestion that you can always avoid wrongful conviction just by avoiding certain situations is fantasy. Some of the wrongfully convicted weren't even in the area when the crime was committed. They weren't necessarily career criminals or anything. Many were convicted on bad IDs, racial prejudice, etc. and were just as innocent as you or I. I for one would hate to know that I rushed to give someone the needle only to later discover they were innocent.
K kperk014Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
Until every community is willing to have a prison in their backyard, we can't lock up every criminal for 15, 20 years or more. I also have heard very good arguments on both sides of the death penalty debate. Most defense lawyers oppose it and it's usually based on cost and the chance of wrongful convictions. I also understand the victim's families wanting their retribution. I can listen with an open mind to most sides of the debate but I don't think we should ever be in a rush to execute people. I'm not saying the appeals process couldn't be streamlined a lot. But the suggestion that you can always avoid wrongful conviction just by avoiding certain situations is fantasy. Some of the wrongfully convicted weren't even in the area when the crime was committed. They weren't necessarily career criminals or anything. Many were convicted on bad IDs, racial prejudice, etc. and were just as innocent as you or I. I for one would hate to know that I rushed to give someone the needle only to later discover they were innocent.


Rush to judgment? In the US Judicial System? Most death row inmates will die of old age instead of the needle.
P Pogo142Post Master
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Kperk

[quote]And when (God forbid) one of your family members is brutally raped and murdered, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time, won't we pogo?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And when one of you who are for the death penalty is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death we will see a fast turn around there I would think.

I have read that it cost more to execute them then to imprison.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
And when one of you who are for the death penalty is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death we will see a fast turn around there I would think.

I have read that it cost more to execute them then to imprison.


Rope is cheap, gravity is free.

I think that the death sentence should be given out carefully, only in cases where there is no doubt about the criminal's guilt. Take the Jeffery Dahmer case for example. The guy had dead bodies in his home and admitted what he did to them. There is no question of his guilt. I see no reason not to execute people like that.

I also believe that once a death sentence is given, the criminal shouldn't be allowed to live for 25 years while working appeals. I think 2 years to appeal and get their affairs in order, then carry out the sentence.
L lawguy07Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
And when one of you who are for the death penalty is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death we will see a fast turn around there I would think.

I have read that it cost more to execute them then to imprison.


Rope is cheap, gravity is free.

I think that the death sentence should be given out carefully, only in cases where there is no doubt about the criminal's guilt. Take the Jeffery Dahmer case for example. The guy had dead bodies in his home and admitted what he did to them. There is no question of his guilt. I see no reason not to execute people like that.

I also believe that once a death sentence is given, the criminal shouldn't be allowed to live for 25 years while working appeals. I think 2 years to appeal and get their affairs in order, then carry out the sentence.


While that sounds good in theory, it's simply not realistic. I waited over 14 months just to get a ruling from the Court of Criminal Appeals in a non-capital murder case. That's step 1 in the appeals process. Then to the AL Supreme Court, then federal courts, back and forth every time a court finds an error. And even if they don't the appellate courts take their own sweet time making a decision. There's no way you could run a capital appeal in 2 years. At the same time, it shouldn't take 20 or 25 either. It's pretty ridiculous.
B beternUOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
I believe it should be banned on moral grounds but no chance of parole in 20 years either.

Besides, with so many people being found innocent through DNA and groups like the Innocence Progect, "Tried and Convicted," doesn't mean anything.


And when (God forbid) one of your family members is brutally raped and murdered, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time, won't we poco?


It is a FACT that there are innocent people being tried and convicted and sentenced to death in this country and Pogo is correct about the exoneration of some of these unfortunates through DNA testing and other means. Hard-core death penalty advocates like you do not seem to care about that, which is pretty pitiful and inhumane.

And when (God forbid) one of your family members is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time by YOU, won't we Kpuke?
K kperk014Post Master
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
I believe it should be banned on moral grounds but no chance of parole in 20 years either.

Besides, with so many people being found innocent through DNA and groups like the Innocence Progect, "Tried and Convicted," doesn't mean anything.


And when (God forbid) one of your family members is brutally raped and murdered, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time, won't we poco?


It is a FACT that there are innocent people being tried and convicted and sentenced to death in this country and Pogo is correct about the exoneration of some of these unfortunates through DNA testing and other means. Hard-core death penalty advocates like you do not seem to care about that, which is pretty pitiful and inhumane.

And when (God forbid) one of your family members is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time by YOU, won't we Kpuke?


Nope, butt-wipe.
S SHELDIVRPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
And when one of you who are for the death penalty is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death we will see a fast turn around there I would think.

I have read that it cost more to execute them then to imprison.


Rope is cheap, gravity is free.

I think that the death sentence should be given out carefully, only in cases where there is no doubt about the criminal's guilt. Take the Jeffery Dahmer case for example. The guy had dead bodies in his home and admitted what he did to them. There is no question of his guilt. I see no reason not to execute people like that.

I also believe that once a death sentence is given, the criminal shouldn't be allowed to live for 25 years while working appeals. I think 2 years to appeal and get their affairs in order, then carry out the sentence.


While that sounds good in theory, it's simply not realistic. I waited over 14 months just to get a ruling from the Court of Criminal Appeals in a non-capital murder case. That's step 1 in the appeals process. Then to the AL Supreme Court, then federal courts, back and forth every time a court finds an error. And even if they don't the appellate courts take their own sweet time making a decision. There's no way you could run a capital appeal in 2 years. At the same time, it shouldn't take 20 or 25 either. It's pretty ridiculous.



It is realistic. The only reason for the current delays you referenced are because we have tolerated all the "foot dragging" appeals.
L lawguy07Hall of Famer
This is part of the point I was making. With over 2300 cases, if the court worked 365 days a year, that would be just over 6 cases per day, every single day. You can surely see the impossibility of that happening. There are only 5 justices on the court of criminal appeals. Again, I don't disagree that it takes too long, but it would still be virtually impossible to get death penalty appeals through the entire process in 2 years. The appellate courts don't drop everything they're doing just to analyze a DP appeal. It's not like the guy is going anywhere so they're probably not in a big rush. Besides which I'd just as soon they be careful with it instead of rushing through it. I've said it before, if we're going to impose the ultimate penalty, we can't complain about the time or cost involved. I respectfully agree to disagree with you.

COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS
ANALYSIS OF FILINGS BY CASE TYPE
FY 2008
Appeals
# of
Cases % of Appeals
% of Total
Filed
Convictions Appealed (Death) 12 0.7% 0.5%
Convictions Appealed
(Municipal) 23 1.3% 1.0%
Convictions Appealed (Other) 582 32.5% 25.3%
Rule 32 Appeals (Death) 6 0.3% 0.3%
Rule 32 Appeals (Non-Death) 573 32.0% 24.9%
Juvenile Appeals 22 1.2% 1.0%
Probation
Revocation 130 7.3% 5.6%
Restitution Order 9 0.5% 0.4%
Mandamus Appeals 11 0.6% 0.5%
Certiorari Appeal 77 4.3% 3.3%
Habeas Appeal 55 3.1% 2.4%
State Pretrial
Appeal 18 1.0% 0.8%
Contempt Adjudication 2 0.1% 0.0%
Motion to Reconsider
Sentence 158 8.9% 6.9%
Other 90 5.1% 3.9%
Total Number of Appeals Filed 1,768 76.8%
Original Petitions 534 23.2%
Total Cases Filed 2,302
S SHELDIVRPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by lawguy07:
This is part of the point I was making. With over 2300 cases, if the court worked 365 days a year, that would be just over 6 cases per day, every single day. You can surely see the impossibility of that happening. There are only 5 justices on the court of criminal appeals. Again, I don't disagree that it takes too long, but it would still be virtually impossible to get death penalty appeals through the entire process in 2 years. The appellate courts don't drop everything they're doing just to analyze a DP appeal. It's not like the guy is going anywhere so they're probably not in a big rush. Besides which I'd just as soon they be careful with it instead of rushing through it. I've said it before, if we're going to impose the ultimate penalty, we can't complain about the time or cost involved. I respectfully agree to disagree with you.

COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS
ANALYSIS OF FILINGS BY CASE TYPE
FY 2008
Appeals
# of
Cases % of Appeals
% of Total
Filed
Convictions Appealed (Death) 12 0.7% 0.5%
Convictions Appealed
(Municipal) 23 1.3% 1.0%
Convictions Appealed (Other) 582 32.5% 25.3%
Rule 32 Appeals (Death) 6 0.3% 0.3%
Rule 32 Appeals (Non-Death) 573 32.0% 24.9%
Juvenile Appeals 22 1.2% 1.0%
Probation
Revocation 130 7.3% 5.6%
Restitution Order 9 0.5% 0.4%
Mandamus Appeals 11 0.6% 0.5%
Certiorari Appeal 77 4.3% 3.3%
Habeas Appeal 55 3.1% 2.4%
State Pretrial
Appeal 18 1.0% 0.8%
Contempt Adjudication 2 0.1% 0.0%
Motion to Reconsider
Sentence 158 8.9% 6.9%
Other 90 5.1% 3.9%
Total Number of Appeals Filed 1,768 76.8%
Original Petitions 534 23.2%
Total Cases Filed 2,302


I don't doubt the numbers...my point is, these numbers exist because of all the appeals. When a verdict is reached, justice is served, one failed appeal then implement the sentence. Massive, multi-layered appeals that span YEARS are nothing more than a self-serving money maker for attorneys.
P Pogo142Post Master
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SHELDIVR

[quote]I don't doubt the numbers...my point is, these numbers exist because of all the appeals. When a verdict is reached, justice is served, one failed appeal then implement the sentence. Massive, multi-layered appeals that span YEARS are nothing more than a self-serving money maker for attorneys.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The problem is justice is not served many times by the original trial. THis has been shown by DNA and various groups like the Innocence Project that find mistakes in the trial and innocent people convicted.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
The problem is justice is not served many times by the original trial. THis has been shown by DNA and various groups like the Innocence Project that find mistakes in the trial and innocent people convicted.


That's due to advances in technology. Yes, it's a good thing that innocent people are being released.

However, keep in mind while you're at work today that a portion of your pay will go to feed, house, clothe, and provide health care for vicious murderers who are not innocent. While you get to work your butt off, they get to sit around watching cable TV, eat, and exercise for the rest of their lives.

Is that justice?
D dolemitejbHall of Famer
quote:
However, keep in mind while you're at work today that a portion of your pay will go to feed, house, clothe, and provide health care for vicious murderers who are not innocent. While you get to work your butt off, they get to sit around watching cable TV, eat, and exercise for the rest of their lives.

Is that justice?



Yes, that is justice. Unless you want to start executing every criminal just for the piece of mind that they aren't getting free meals while you're at work, then you'll have to live with the reality of prison costs. What about the thief who is serving 25 years? He's sitting around while we're at work. Should we execute him too?
Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
I am PRO using the death penalty to get rid of CONS. New DNA evidence only helps those wrongfully convicted years ago. It also helps uphold the rightful conviction of some of those who have demanded the evidence be re-examined. "I couldn't have done it 'cause I was drunk/high and don't remember anything from that night."
Tomme73Tomme73Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Kperk

[quote]And when (God forbid) one of your family members is brutally raped and murdered, we'll see a new world record in flip-flop time, won't we pogo?

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And when one of you who are for the death penalty is wrongly convicted and sentenced to death we will see a fast turn around there I would think.

I have read that it cost more to execute them then to imprison.


I have read many things that common sense told me were undoubtedly false.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
quote:
However, keep in mind while you're at work today that a portion of your pay will go to feed, house, clothe, and provide health care for vicious murderers who are not innocent. While you get to work your butt off, they get to sit around watching cable TV, eat, and exercise for the rest of their lives.

Is that justice?



Yes, that is justice. Unless you want to start executing every criminal just for the piece of mind that they aren't getting free meals while you're at work, then you'll have to live with the reality of prison costs. What about the thief who is serving 25 years? He's sitting around while we're at work. Should we execute him too?


No, I'm only referring to convicted murderers where evidence is not in question and the killer admits his crimes. Examples would be Jeffery Dahmer (sp?), the BTK Killer, and similar cases. Those types of monsters can't be rehabilitated and can't be released back into society. So I see no reason why they shouldn't be dispatched quickly and cheaply.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
quote:
Just for the sake of argument....

Is it your contention that we should only execute murderers who "can't be rehabilitated and can't be released back into society?" Is there a type of murderer who can meet those two criteria, and should they be subject to the death penalty?


Yes. Sometimes people who are under the influence of drugs will do things they wouldn't normally do, like kill someone. Someone may have been young and stupid and made a terrible mistake. I'm sure I could dig up some examples.

There are also people locked up for life who have no remorse for what they did. They can never get out because they will simply kill again. I don't see why resources should be wasted to care for these people when that money could be better spent improving the prison system, rehabilitating the people who can be returned to society, or even better funding school programs to help keep kids from getting into trouble to start with.
D dolemitejbHall of Famer
Nash,

My personal belief has been that the death penalty could be used in cases where rehabilitation is clearly not an option. With me, it's not so much about prisoners taking up resources as it is that I don't trust the government to administer any type of eye-for-an-eye type of punishment. As for what the barometer for determining that rehabilitation is not an option, I don't know of anything reliable.

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