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Before that question can be truly be pondered, a clear definition of exactly what defines the 'church' as the subject in this particular question. 

 

Merriam-Webster (www.merriam-webster.com) lists 5 definitions:

 

1.  a build for public and especially Christian worship

2.  the clergy or officialdom of a religious body

3.  a body or organization of religious believers: as

       a.  the whole body of Christians

       b.  Denominational church>

       c.  Congregation

4.  a public divine worship

5.  the clerical profession

 

For me, the definitions listed above boiled down to a 'church' being either:

A.  a building

B.  the clergy

C.  the people

 

So, let's plug each on into the sentence and see how it fits:

 

1.  Does the "build" exist for the people or do the people exist for the "build"? 

     --Ok, the church being 'the building doesn't make sense in this particular question

2.  Does the "people" exist for the people or do the people exist for the "people"?

     --Again, the church being the 'people' doesn't make sense is this particular question

3.  Does the "clergy" exist for the people or do the people exist for the "clergy"?

     --The 'clergy' being the church makes sense in this particular question

 

So, for this particular question, the 'church' is defined as the "clergy".  This question could have been asked this way:   "Does the clergy exist for the people or do the people exist for the clergy" but I think many people would have not considered the question at all because most people would say, "that's absurd, of course the clergy exist for the people"...or...would they????

 

An even more thought provoking question could be:  If Christ is the "Universal Church", can the question be, "Does Christ exist for the people or do the people exist for Christ"?

 

Your thoughts....

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Originally Posted by Kate Colombo:

While these terms are widely misused...

You are so right   That's why I narrowed my definition of 'church' to clergy/authorities.  The question stems from statements I've heard from others and have even said myself about the "church" not knowing someone existed unless they are putting offerings in a plate.  I have received requests from one particular church for 2 years now always asking for "Love Offerings" for 'this or that'.  The problem for me is that the church doesn't even know I haven't been for attendance in 2 years now.  It makes me feel that 'they' could care less about me as a person but cares to keep me on their mailing list because it seems 'they' do care if my checkbook exist.  So now I wonder...do I exist so the church may have finances or does the church exist so the I may receive instructions and teachings in the word of Christ.

.

I've been ask to attend Bellevue Baptist here in Cordova by a few different

people and everytime I was told to be sure to bring my W2 form.

With an approx membership 30,000 I was hoping they could get along

without me. There's many good people and the friends I have at Bellevue

are good people.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellevue_Baptist_Church

 

I believe the people, the church and the clergy all exist for each other.

They all support each other.

 

 

 

I don't know how factual this is but I'm told there is a church in Muscle Shoals that requires a copy of your W2 if you wish to be a member.  The reason for the W2 is to allow the church to know how much your 10% tithing should be.  Again, I don't know how true this is and I've only heard others make such statements.  BUT now that Invictus states that he was told that he may need to bring a W2...may what I've heard about the church in Muscle Shoals is true  For me...this is very, very sad.

Hi all,

 

Rather than look at what any dictionary might call the "church" -- why don't we look at what the Bible, the Written Word of God, calls the church:

 

Colossians 1:18, "He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything."

Ephesians 1:22-23, "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all."

 

When God has declared, or defined -- we should accept what He has given us and not try to give it a "man-meaning."   The church is the worldwide body of believers.  

 

We meet in buildings -- sometimes large, most often smaller, and in many cases in private homes.  Those are just the meeting place, not the church.

 

We have church leaders, i.e., elders, pastors, teachers, etc.   These folks are merely those chosen by God as spiritual leaders to help those in the "church" grow more mature and knowledgeable in His Written Word and in our daily Christian walk.  They are members of the church; but, they themselves alone -- are not the church.  

 

The entire worldwide body of believers -- from His first disciple to the last person who will believe -- is the church.

 

Let's look at  Matthew 16:18, "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

 

Even here, in the Scripture passage found in Matthew 16:13-20, it is clear that Jesus is building HIS CHURCH, His body of believers -- upon the type of faith shown by Peter when Christ asked him, "But who do you say that I am?"  (verse 15).   And, Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (verse 16).    One cannot be a believer without, by the grace of God, having that faith -- and upon the FAITH Jesus Christ has built His church, His body of believers. 

 

Nowhere in the Bible will we find the buildings nor the leaders defined as the church.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Tamela:

I don't know how factual this is but I'm told there is a church in Muscle Shoals that requires a copy of your W2 if you wish to be a member.  The reason for the W2 is to allow the church to know how much your 10% tithing should be.  Again, I don't know how true this is and I've only heard others make such statements. 

 ________

I have friends that go to that church. You have to show a W2 or a months worth of check stubs. If you lose your job or get laid off, you have to show proof of your unemployment check.

The people in that church do not worship God, they worship the Pastor.

Hi all,

 

Please allow me to add a clarification to my earlier post.    I wrote:

 

The entire worldwide body of believers -- from His first disciple to the last person who will believe -- is the church.

 

I should have written:

 

The entire worldwide body of believers -- from His first disciple to the last person who will believe before the Rapture -- is the church.

 

Why do I make this distinction?  Well, believers in the Old Testament are Old Testament saints.  And, believers who will believe during the Tribulation are Tribulation saints.

 

But, the church is only those who believe from the time Jesus Christ started His earthly ministry, and began His church -- until the last person who will believe before He ends the Church Era at the Rapture.  These people are the church, the body of believers in the Church Era, His bride.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Tamela:

If you stop tithing in such churches I guess it would be like anything else you "pay" for...no pay/no play! lol  and you get kicked out.

________

The Pastor will have a private meeting with you after a month of not paying & you will be told to find another church. Sick, isn't it?

I do not understand why anyone would want to go to that church under those kind of rules, but people talk about that Pastor like he was the one that hung on the cross.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Tamela:

If you stop tithing in such churches I guess it would be like anything else you "pay" for...no pay/no play! lol  and you get kicked out.

________

The Pastor will have a private meeting with you after a month of not paying & you will be told to find another church. Sick, isn't it?

I do not understand why anyone would want to go to that church under those kind of rules, but people talk about that Pastor like he was the one that hung on the cross.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was just talking with my neighbors about this conversation and Jay asked a good question, "What happens if you attend two churches"?  He's Catholic and she COC and they attend church their own churches. 

 

I honestly don't understand how some can accept such positions by a church body.  It just boggles my mind. 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Please allow me to add a clarification to my earlier post.    I wrote:

 

The entire worldwide body of believers -- from His first disciple to the last person who will believe -- is the church.

 

I should have written:

 

The entire worldwide body of believers -- from His first disciple to the last person who will believe before the Rapture -- is the church.

 

Why do I make this distinction?  Well, believers in the Old Testament are Old Testament saints.  And, believers who will believe during the Tribulation are Tribulation saints.

 

But, the church is only those who believe from the time Jesus Christ started His earthly ministry, and began His church -- until the last person who will believe before He ends the Church Era at the Rapture.  These people are the church, the body of believers in the Church Era, His bride.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bill thank you; I really do enjoy reading your responses.  I agree that the church is not a 'building' nor is it the officialdom but the word 'church' is used to imply both at times by many. I did not think about the 'church' in regards to a "church era" and this gives me a lot to think about.

Originally Posted by Tamela:

I don't know how factual this is but I'm told there is a church in Muscle Shoals that requires a copy of your W2 if you wish to be a member.  The reason for the W2 is to allow the church to know how much your 10% tithing should be.  Again, I don't know how true this is and I've only heard others make such statements.  BUT now that Invictus states that he was told that he may need to bring a W2...may what I've heard about the church in Muscle Shoals is true  For me...this is very, very sad.

____

IF this is true of some "church in Muscle Shoals, then it tells us something about that church.

 

First, it tells us that that church apparently is unwilling to simply ask a prospective member about his/her income and accept what they are told is true. In other words, this practice is saying, "We want to know about your income, but we won't believe you unless up put up documentation to prove what you claim."

 

THAT seems to me is a bad way to start a church/member relationship.

 

Secondly, if the purpose of examining the W-2 form is to ascertain a person's "income," and if that is ALL that is done for that purpose, then it is a half-baked procedure.  A Form W-2 will not include income from sources other that one's employer.  It does not include, for instance, income from investments or interest on savings.  Mitt Romney's W-2 would not include all the millions of dollars he has coming in on stock dividends and stock sales profits or income from those offs**** acounts he has.

 

In any case, it is an intrusive and unnecessary practice to demand that a Form W-2 or any other "evidence" of income must be submitted before one can be accepted as a member of a local church.  If that is being done, it is a deplorable practice that should be stopped.  Anyone seeking membership in a church where this kind of screening is performed would be well advised to seek Christian fellowship elsewhere.

Hi Head,

 

I will go a big step further.   You offer, "First, it tells us that that church apparently is unwilling to simply ask a prospective member about his/her income and accept what they are told is true."

 

There is ONLY one question a church fellowship should ask a visitor or new member is, "Do you know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?"   That should be their only concern.  

 

If a church told me that I have to disclose personal and financial information to be a member -- I would thank them and walk away.   Some years ago, a pastor and elders told me I had to sign a contract with their church to be a member.   I told him, "The only contract, or covenant, I have is with God."   I relish my covenant with Him -- and join with fellow believers to worship Him.  If I have to sign a contract, or disclose financial information, to be able to join them in worship -- then, I know that is not the group for me.

 

But, to be quite honest, I doubt that any church in Muscle Shoals does this.  I recall this coming up several years ago on the forum -- and an active member of that church fellowship confirmed that this is not true.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

What's the name of the church?

 

Over the years there have been at least one, if not two, discussions of this church, often referred to as "Six Flags Over Jesus." It no longer uses the name Southern Baptist in its advertising, which is humorous since it appropriated its original name from a much smaller church in Muscle Shoals.

 

I'll see if I can did up one of those discussions...

The name is Grace Life Church of the Shoals on Avalon Ave. It's been there for years though it's had different names.

My friends & I have had strong disagreements about why they would go to a church like that. I have heard her tell people when ask that it's not true about having to show proof of income. She told me the reason for it is that the Pastor doesn't want the outside to know how the church is run.

Don't believe me? Visit a few times & see for yourself. I know one couple that went & recorded that piece of info on a bet. They won $100.00.

Vplee or invviccuuleous either one: does the Catholic Church not nose into income of members here in the US. I do know, by testimony of members, of one particular European country where church tithes are held out of paychecks. I am curious as to what of a person’s ,is considered jointly the Church’s, financial income information?

Since Semi has named the church, I will elaborate on the name changes. I don't know the original name of that congregation, but there was a First Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals on Wilson Dam Road for many years.

 

Someone, perhaps the current pastor, decided the Avalon Avenue church was the largest Baptist Church in Muscle Shoals and should be called First Baptist. At that point, the original First Baptist, practicing Christianity as I would see it, changed their name to First Southern Baptist Church.

 

A few years ago the Avalon church again changed its name. Grace Life--no mention of Baptist in the title. I have seen this done in B'ham and H'ville with those congregations saying they wish to be more inclusive.

 

The W-2 stories have been around for some time, and I have no idea if they're true or not.

I can’t think of the Pastor’s name right off that started out with that church & was Pastor there for several years. There have been 3 Pastor’s since the first one. The one there now is the 4th. If you want to hear how he feels about a woman speaking or having any part to do in the church, visit & hear it for yourself.

 

They have a ministry called Anc****d in Truth in which you can donate money. On their own web site, it does say that if you are not faithful in giving to your local church, then do not donate to their ministry. That is from the horse’s mouth.

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