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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

Today, a young lady, a Christian sister, shared this video on Facebook -- and I have to continue that sharing on every venue God has given me. This video is the most important I have ever watched. And, I urge you to watch it and to share it.

GIANNA JESSEN - ABORTION SURVIVOR:
http://www.facebook.com/video/...hp?v=158348990848143

SHARE THIS VIDEO WITH THE WORLD! -- I thank my dear sister in Christ, Valerie Zin, for making me aware of this video.

In the late 1990s, my wife, Dory, and I attended an anti-abortion fund raising concert hosted by Dr. David Hocking and Pat Boone at Calvary Church in Santa Ana, California. The two special guests were Joni Eareckson Tada and a teenage girl in a wheel chair who had survived a Saline Abortion.

For those not familiar with saline abortions -- to an unborn baby it is like giving it a bath in acid. This method of abortion is intended to burn the unborn child to death in the womb. At the concert, this teenage girl in her wheel chair sang a love song to Jesus Christ. That teenage girl we saw at the concert -- is the beautiful lady in this video, Gianna Jessen.

Who can better speak, in person and in her life -- against abortion, all abortions, than this lady? Who can speak of the glory of God's love -- louder than this articulate lady? Who should we, the world, be listening to -- this lady blessed by God with life -- or the abortionists who get rich by killing, snuffing out the lives, of millions of unborn babies each year?

I thank God for Gianna Jessen; I thank God for her brave stance against the infanticide of millions of babies each year via legal abortions; I thank God for Gianna Jessen's life and courage.

This could be the most important sixteen minutes of your life. This sixteen minute video -- just may save the life of ONE UNBORN BABY! Share this video and this message with the world!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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She is proof of a botched abortion. Sad, I agree, for her to have had to suffer as she has.

However, things are better today for women who seek abortions. It is what I fight for against people like you. Better more accurate and safe abortions for those women who seek it.

Until you have walked a mile in one of these womens shoes you can not judge or decide for them what is right.

If you really want to make a difference then start advocating sex ed in schools and make sure that both girls and boys have access to birth control.

Start a fund that would pay for all medical and living expenses for women who can't afford to have their babies.

Having carried and delivered 2 wonderful babies, I know what dangers and limitations a pregnant woman goes through. I have never needed to have an abortion and I am very happy about that. I do however see where not all women are as fortunate as I was.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
She is proof of a botched abortion. Sad, I agree, for her to have had to suffer as she has.

However, things are better today for women who seek abortions. It is what I fight for against people like you. Better more accurate and safe abortions for those women who seek it.

Hi Jan,

Do they still perform Saline Abortions? YES!

Are the Saline Abortions any less barbaric today than they were 25 years ago? NO!

Are a MILLION BABIES killed in America via abortions -- every year since 1973? YES!

Are these abortions destroying human life? YES!

Does God hate abortions? YES! YES! YES!

Abortions are for two purposes. They are a convenient form of birth control for those too lazy to use protection.

And, they are a fast track to wealth for abortionists.

Other than that, they are just fine.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
She is proof of a botched abortion. Sad, I agree, for her to have had to suffer as she has.

However, things are better today for women who seek abortions. It is what I fight for against people like you. Better more accurate and safe abortions for those women who seek it.

Until you have walked a mile in one of these womens shoes you can not judge or decide for them what is right.

If you really want to make a difference then start advocating sex ed in schools and make sure that both girls and boys have access to birth control.

Start a fund that would pay for all medical and living expenses for women who can't afford to have their babies.

Having carried and delivered 2 wonderful babies, I know what dangers and limitations a pregnant woman goes through. I have never needed to have an abortion and I am very happy about that. I do however see where not all women are as fortunate as I was.


You act like every female having an abortion is some infantile 11 year old... If this is your life's passion then you should know the freakin stats!!! I'm so sick of this junk!! Trying to get people to feel sorry for the woman while calling people idiots who care about unborn babies. CHECK THE STATS!!!
FACT-- Most abortions are preformed on women OVER THE AGE OF 20!!! That's not some dumb little uneducated girl... THAT IS A GROWN WOMAN!!! only 1.2% of abortions are accounted for on girls age 15 and under.

18.8% of abortions are on girls between 16 and 19... Young and dumb, yes... UNEDUCATED ON WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A GUY AND GIRL HAVE SEX... NO!!!

32% of abortions are on WOMEN aged 20-24... I'm supposed to feel bad for a grown adult woman here that could be taking college level math classes, but can't figure out what causes an unplanned pregnancy???

48% of all abortions are on WOMEN OVER THE AGE OF 25!!!! Once again... DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THE LIARS TELLING YOU THIS IS TO PROTECT OUR YOUNG WOMEN!!! These are grown women who know that the possible consequence of sex is pregnacy... they have the right to chose... JUST SAY NO!!!

More FACTS!!! about abortion...
71.3% of all abortions are with women who are in a family with income OVER $15,000 a year.

An alarming 51.8% are with women in families of $30,000 a year. These are not poor pitiful GROWN WOMEN who can't afford birth control pills... Once again.. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY LIARS! CHECK THE FACTS FOR YOURSELF!!

And the most sickening part of this is when pro-choicers EXPLOIT rape and incest victims to gain sympathy for their movement.... 1% OF ALL ABORTIONS occur because of rape or incest. The exploitation of these victims is pathetic!! Using their traumatic event to attempt to build a scape goat for the 93% of abortion that occur for social reasons(unplanned, unwanted, or inconvenient).

DO NOT BE FOOLED BY LIARS!!! CHECK THE FACTS!!

Is this really the type of society we want to be? Protect a woman's rights by killing an unborn child???
Last edited by Peter Rielly
quote:
Most abortions are preformed on women OVER THE AGE OF 20

Where did your statistics come from Peter? These are different.


http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs...nduced_abortion.html

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15-17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18-19 obtain 11%, and teens under age 15 obtain 0.4%. [6]

Women in their twenties account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25-29 obtain 24%. [6]

Thirty percent of abortions occur to non-Hispanic black women, 36% to non-Hispanic white women, 25% to Hispanic women and 9% to women of other races. [6]

Thirty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions identify as Protestant and 28% as Catholic.[6]

Women who have never married and are not cohabiting account for 45% of all abortions.[6]

About 61% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[6]

Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children). Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100-199% of the federal poverty level.* [6]

The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]

Hi B,

If that is the case -- why not do something to prevent the pregnancy -- instead of killing the baby which results from no prevention?

And, if you cite rape and incest -- yes, those are legitimate reasons. However, those represent less that 3% of all abortions in America. The other 97% are for convenience or as a means of birth control. Do the birth control BEFORE the sex -- not after the baby is conceived.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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This is a dead horse.

Women have the right to decide what is best for them and their own bodies. There are so many reason why women have abortions, however I have never met a woman who choose to have an abortion that did not give it serious thought before hand or did it easily. Its a very tough choice, but sometimes it is necessary, and I for one am very thankful to live in a country that gives women that choice and the dr's and facilities to have it done right.

Peter no where in my post did I say anything about 11 year old girls. What is your obsession with kids? Kinda strange...and weird. Your stats are wrong, but it is beside the point. What have you done to help prevent unwanted pregnancies? Who do you think should pay for the care and cost of these pregnancies you want to save? How many are you willing to take on and raise?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
This is a dead horse.

Women have the right to decide what is best for them and their own bodies.


Why is it so important for women to be able to kill a child uninhibited?

quote:

There are so many reason why women have abortions,


So it's each individuals right to decide which is legit?

quote:

however I have never met a woman who choose to have an abortion that did not give it serious thought before hand or did it easily.


Well!! that make me feel better knowin there was some thought put into it. Frowner

quote:

Its a very tough choice, but sometimes it is necessary,


I should hope so!

quote:

and I for one am very thankful to live in a country that gives women that choice


Maybe the law makers will eventually pass legislation to "abort" old folks due to being a burden on the health care system...

quote:

and the dr's and facilities to have it done right.


Yep we will want to be sure an kill them in a nice facilities....Really are you serious!!!

quote:

Peter no where in my post did I say anything about 11 year old girls. What is your obsession with kids? Kinda strange...and weird.


I class your above view points right there with a pedo!

quote:

Your stats are wrong, but it is beside the point. What have you done to help prevent unwanted pregnancies?


Spay and Casterize Athiests!...

quote:

Who do you think should pay for the care and cost of these pregnancies you want to save?


Tax the apparent excess alcohol and drug monies you folks have that induce such a thought process.

quote:

How many are you willing to take on and raise?


That is so athieistic typical of a question? But I will indulge it once again. So listen close and keep up. We all know everyone can not take on more dependents, so for startes ..oh lets say we cut out funding for these nice euthanizing centers ya'll are so proud of and apply the monies to the needy folks.

Just wondering...are you really a proud supporter of your convictions. Or are you just bitter at the world for some
misfortune in your life that you don't want to face. ..just a theory.
Your case for what? Ignorance?

Deepflab, (congratulations of your very non original screen name)

You are either Peter, or someone just as ignorant. I would not be proud to be either.

Yes women have the right to decide for whatever reason they want to abort. That really bothers you doesn't it? Is it really about these so called "babies" or does it just rankle you that you have no control over their lives?

Maybe your mother should have made a better choice. I do believe the world would be a better place had she known the close-minded waste of space you would turn out to be and chose to save us all the aggravation of your existence.

I'm tired of all you dumb a55's. Go on thinking as you please, believing in your fairy sky father and your happily ever after, while the rest of the world goes on without you.

Fortunately there are more intelligent people making the real decisions that govern us all. I can only imagine what this country would be if the likes of you/peter were in charge. Maybe you should watch the movie Idiocracy to get a feel for what it would be like.

Buffy,

you should not align yourself with these fools, lest you want to be taken as one just as ignorant.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
This is a dead horse.

Women have the right to decide what is best for them and their own bodies. There are so many reason why women have abortions, however I have never met a woman who choose to have an abortion that did not give it serious thought before hand or did it easily. Its a very tough choice, but sometimes it is necessary, and I for one am very thankful to live in a country that gives women that choice and the dr's and facilities to have it done right.

Peter no where in my post did I say anything about 11 year old girls. What is your obsession with kids? Kinda strange...and weird. Your stats are wrong, but it is beside the point. What have you done to help prevent unwanted pregnancies? Who do you think should pay for the care and cost of these pregnancies you want to save? How many are you willing to take on and raise?


For Pete's sake!!! SERIOUSLY!!! What malfunction do folks have when this issue comes up???

I NEVER SAID A WOMAN DIDNT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM AND THEIR OWN BODIES!!!!

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! Should I say it again???

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!

If a really young girl... or a mentally handicapped female become pregnant, then we can talk about this intelligently... But as a scape-goat for party girls... no dice!!!

In your attempt to defend womens rights, you are saying that women are too stupid to figure out what happens when they have sex. YOU are saying they are too stupid to figure out that condoms and birth control help... YOU are saying women are too stupid to know that THE ONLY WAY TO GUARANTEE THEY DON'T HAVE AN UNPLANNED PREGNANCY IS TO NOT HAVE SEX!!!!

I'm not saying they have to say no to sex... what I'm saying is, women have the power in this situation. If a woman with any sense whatsoever is in a sexual situation, but knows she can't deal with a baby, then what should her choice be?? YOU are freedom of choice right??? What should her choice be?? Are you willing to say they are too stupid to know that sex can very possibly lead to pregnancy?? Are women so pathetic and unable to take care of themselves that we have to bail them out because the are too stupid to know that babies come from sex??

See... all of that sounds mean, but that's all I see from your side of this. Pro-choicers exploit rape victims, and play to the stereotype that women can't take care of themselves. You think you are helping the progression of women's rights, all you are doin is keeping them in the "helpless" closet. Such freakin garbage to be okay with KILL A LIVING HUMAN BEING to acheive some sense of worth in life. Pathetic.
My opinion is probably not going to be popular.
But I personally feel that abortion is evil, regardless of the reason.

We as a society have numbed ourselves to the point where killing a baby in a mothers womb is a matter of choice. The mother's "right".
What about the baby's right?!?!
I am sick of the political correctedness/feminism "My body, my choice" plight.
I KNOW there are times in which a mother's life may be in danger, and there are RARE instances when a pregnancy must be terminated, but good God; how can one call an abortion a "safe medical procedure" when the end result is death of a baby!
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
I wonder if our anti-abortion forum members have adopted any unwanted children.


Yes crust . As a matter of fact.


If you are referring to yourself, then I give you huge kudos, a huge bump in respect, and an ear when you go all anti-abortion on us if you so choose.

If not Roll Eyes
Crust,

I’m going to agree with veplee to a greater degree than to say I’m pro abortionist.

Logic does not allow for abortion given the pregnancy was planned by at least one of the participants; whether due to neglect or intention.

Yes there are some cases where abortion is necessary but the science regarding the necessity disappears when viewed on a universal scale.

Those that insist on abortion on demand most times are driven by selfishness .

Let’s call a spade a spade. Cracking without regard to the outcome does not in any way earn the sympathy of anyone other than those involved in the recreational doing of the nasty.

Certainly nothing wrong with recreational doing of the nasty but my god don’t sit around making up dammmm lies to justify abortion.
quote:

Your case for what? Ignorance?


Just as expected….when called out into the light someone else is the ignorant one.

quote:

Deepflab, (congratulations of your very non original screen name)


Jankinonya……..yea whatever…we are all impressed I’m sure.

quote:

You are either Peter, or someone just as ignorant. I would not be proud to be either.


You should be so lucky!

quote:

Yes women have the right to decide for whatever reason they want to abort. That really bothers you doesn't it?


1. No women just like men do not have the right to kill just because of an inconvenience in life.
2. It is the “whatever reason” that you kind of people want to shove down everyone’s throat. With no consequence!! That bothers me.


quote:

Is it really about these so called "babies" or does it just rankle you that you have no control over their lives?


So called babies…well that about sums you up right there. I am glad I don’t have to see what you do in the mirror every morning! I bet your family is proud God forbid you’ve been blessed with one.

quote:

Maybe your mother should have made a better choice.


I’m sure your Mother as mine, would not wish ill will on you, but rather she would hang her head in shame and blame herself for the abomination the child she raised turned out to be.


quote:

I do believe the world would be a better place had she known the close-minded waste of space you would turn out to be and chose to save us all the aggravation of your existence.


If not being a heartless baby killer is classified as close minded then…GUILTY as charged


quote:

I'm tired of all you dumb a55's. Go on thinking as you please, believing in your fairy sky father and your happily ever after, while the rest of the world goes on without you.
Fortunately there are more intelligent people making the real decisions that govern us all. I can only imagine what this country would be if the likes of you/peter were in charge. Maybe you should watch the movie Idiocracy to get a feel for what it would be like.


I feel sure that all of this mindless ejaculation of words you have spewed forth is a knee jerk retaliation to my break down of your post in front of your peers. So in closing maybe it is you my dear that is in need of alignment and not the Buffallo.

P.S. He does not live in the sky. He is in the Heart. Also akin to the organ in the body that makes the little sound you hear on the ultrasound when some women are making that decision of live or die.
quote:
This is a dead horse.

Women have the right to decide what is best for them and their own bodies.


I agree completely.

The problem with this argument is that we're not talking about the mother's body. The infant is a completely separate individual.

I know this because I first saw our child when my wife had an ultrasound. It wasn't her first one, we had a picture of "Cleetus the Fetus" framed and in the kitchen. It was a brand new person with it's own body that was as plain as day to see. It was still developing, but my wife heard it's heartbeat that day.

I didn't get to hear that heartbeat. We found out when I was there that we lost the baby at 11 weeks and 4 days. It hurt us both like hell and it still hurts while I'm typing this. My wife had to have a D&C which is basically like an abortion. It wasn't easy on her physically, but emotionally it's been far worse.

The reason I'm pointing this out is because in the US, most abortions occur within the first 4 months. I think the latest one can have an abortion is around 20 or 22 weeks. So our baby was well within the range that most women choose to abort.

I saw with my own eyes a separate individual. It had a life of it's own for 11 weeks. It had it's own body and I still have the picture to prove it. So when I hear the argument that women have the right to make choices about their own bodies, I agree completely. The problem is that abortion involves someone else's body. It also ignores the fact that maybe there is a dad who already loves that child.

This is why sex ed is so important. I don't believe that banning abortions will solve the problem, it will make it so much worse. Education is the solution to prevent abortions in the first place.

It's important to understand early the ways to prevent pregnancy before it happens, but also understand that a fetus isn't just a useless chunk of flesh that can be easily discarded. There are options other than terminating a life. A mother may not want her child, but there are so many couples out there who would gladly take it.

We don't have children. We hope that one day we will. It may not happen naturally, we may be one of those couples in line to adopt. That's why abortion is so wasteful. Why kill a child when someone else is willing to love it?
Hi VP,

You tell us, "My opinion is probably not going to be popular. But I personally feel that abortion is evil, regardless of the reason."

I agree with you completely! Except for the health of the mother, to save her life -- I can see no other valid reason to have an abortion. Our Pro-Abortion Friends always bring up the question, "Well, what about those women and girls who are victims of rape and incest? Should they be forced to have the baby conceived through this crime?"

On Monday, May 10, 2010, Lets Go Jeepin' and I had a dialogue on this:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':

I think you will find the majority of folks that are against abortion feel as I do. There are medical reasons that are justifiable, there are personal reasons that are justifiable. Then there are the 'other' reasons. Its those reasons that drive the majority of people to speak out against abortion. It would be interesting to see statistics on the percentage of abortions that are done outside of the 'medical necessity' or 'moral necessity' reasons. I would be willing to bet that the number that are neither would be staggering....

Hi Jeepin,

From reports I have given before in Forum articles, and other articles, I have written: Basically, there are four reasons for abortion: Rape, Incest, Mother's Health, and Not Convenient.

Rape and incest represent less than 1% of all abortions in America.

Mother's health represents less than 2% of all abortions in America.

The other 97+ percent of abortions in America -- 1.26+ MILLION -- fall into the "Not Convenient" category. I wonder, if those babies could vote -- in they would consider themselves "not convenient"?

Today, I Googled "Reasons For Abortions" -- and, this is what I found today:

Reasons Given For Having Abortions In The United States by Wm. Robert Johnston, last updated 9 October 2008 http://www.johnstonsarchive.ne...rtion/abreasons.html

In the final summation at the bottom of the web page:

REASONS FOR ABORTIONS: COMPILED ESTIMATES

Rape: .3% -- 3/10th of one percent attributed to rape.

Incest: .03% -- 3/100th of one percent due to incest.

Mother's Health: 1.2%

Personal Choice: 98% -- 98% for Convenience.

Assuming an average of 1.3 MILLION abortions per year -- about 1.274 MILLION babies died via abortion because they were NOT CONVENIENT!

Now, could those 1.274 MILLION babies have been adopted? I don't know; but, if we as a nation put our money into providing adoptions -- as enthusiastically as we do in funding abortions to kill babies -- a big percentage of them could be put into happy homes and lead productive lives.

When you consider that, since 1973 over 50 MILLION babies have died through abortion -- that is a bigger number than the population of many states. That is infanticide! And, if any of those babies could have been saved through adoption -- and were not; then we have failed them.

There has to be a better solution -- better than killing over 1.3 MILLION babies a year for convenience, in America alone.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Then, VP, you tell us, "We as a society have numbed ourselves to the point where killing a baby in a mothers womb is a matter of choice. The mother's 'right.' What about the baby's right? I am sick of the political correctedness/feminism 'My body, my choice' plight."

You are so right, VP! It seems that our "politically correct" society is so hung up on "the woman's right" -- that they forget that this child has rights also. And, one of those major rights is the Right To Life.

When Dory and I first saw the lady in this video, Gianna Jessen, she was a frail teenager in a wheel chair -- yet, she sang of her love of Christ with strong conviction. This frail teenager, almost crippled from the results of surviving a Saline Abortion -- was singing a love song to her Savior, the One who brought her through the torturous pain of the attempted Saline Abortion -- and gave her life. I promise you -- at that time, sitting in her wheel chair, and now as she walks to the podium -- Gianna Jessen would never have chosen to be aborted. She loves life and she loves Jesus Christ.

Finally, VP, you tell us, "I KNOW there are times in which a mother's life may be in danger, and there are RARE instances when a pregnancy must be terminated. But, how can one call an abortion a 'safe medical procedure' when the end result is death of a baby!"

As we have seen from the report I quoted above, abortions because of Mother's Health equals 1.2% of the 1.3 million abortions. That is about 13,000 abortions out of a total of 1,300,000 abortions in America every year. As much as I hate abortion -- if we allow those 13,000 abortions to protect the life of the mother -- and to save the lives of 1,287,000 babies; that would be a tremendous improvement over the Mass Infanticide we have today in America.

And, keep in mind that while we are killing 1.3 MILLION babies a year in America via abortion -- in that same time period, about 50 MILLION babies are dying via abortion in the rest of the supposedly civilized world. This most certainly warrants many sincere prayers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Well Bill, you and I have reached a common ground.
I detest the fact that abortion-on-demand is even an option. It is a disgrace to humanity.
If we desensitize ourselves to allow the killing of a human being, we no longer have respect for life. Then spins forth horrific ideas like "selective reductions" and other evils brought to society, driven by a need for control and "perfect planning".
If it's ok to kill a 10 week old baby, why not 30? why not immediately after birth if the baby isn't what you had in mind? What's the difference?

At any rate, abortion is murder. Plain and simple. GOD HELP US ALL for feeling that it is a choice and a right.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Well Bill, you and I have reached a common ground.
I detest the fact that abortion-on-demand is even an option. It is a disgrace to humanity.
If we desensitize ourselves to allow the killing of a human being, we no longer have respect for life. Then spins forth horrific ideas like "selective reductions" and other evils brought to society, driven by a need for control and "perfect planning".
If it's ok to kill a 10 week old baby, why not 30? why not immediately after birth if the baby isn't what you had in mind? What's the difference?

At any rate, abortion is murder. Plain and simple. GOD HELP US ALL for feeling that it is a choice and a right.

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quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Hey CrustyMac.... to your point...

"I wonder if our pro-abortion forum members have stabbed an unborn baby in the back of the head and sucked out it's brains through a tube."

I'm going to guess that the answer to that question is "no". I haven't.

Hi Crusty,

Peter gave a pretty fair description of a Partial Birth Abortion - and it occurs when the baby is fully developed and ready to be born. Would you call that right?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Hey CrustyMac.... to your point...

"I wonder if our pro-abortion forum members have stabbed an unborn baby in the back of the head and sucked out it's brains through a tube."

I'm going to guess that the answer to that question is "no". I haven't.

Hi Crusty,

Peter gave a pretty fair description of a Partial Birth Abortion - and it occurs when the baby is fully developed and ready to be born. Would you call that right?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



Actually, it's not just "ready to be born", it
more than half way delivered....


quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Rielly:
Hey CrustyMac.... to your point...

"I wonder if our pro-abortion forum members have stabbed an unborn baby in the back of the head and sucked out it's brains through a tube."

I'm going to guess that the answer to that question is "no". I haven't.

Hi Crusty,

Peter gave a pretty fair description of a Partial Birth Abortion - and it occurs when the baby is fully developed and ready to be born. Would you call that right?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


No, I wouldn't. That particular type of abortion is still illegal, I believe. So what is your argument?

How many unwanted children have you adopted?

Have a blissed day, Bill.
Oh how the self righteousness abounds in here!

Murder? Please. US law defines it as such:"Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

Abortion is the lawful termination of a pregnancy. It does not take the life of a human being. I will give you the fact that there is a potential for life of a human being, but that can not be obtained without much sacrifice, physically, financially,emotionally and mentally on the part of the would be host (mother) If she does not want to do what it takes (for whatever reason) to carry a fetus to a stage in which it could be a human life then she has that right. The eggs you ate for breakfast had the potential for life, but you don't say I had chicken and bacon do you?

Having worked for 8 years in an abortion clinic I can tell you first hand that most of the women or girls were using some form of BC when they became pregnant. Birth Control fails sometimes. Due to lack of understanding of how to properly use it, or just circumstances beyond the users control. Then you had the cases of young girls who made the mistake of believing the boy who said he loved them and would be with them forever, only to cut and run when she told him of the pregnancy. Facing such a thing alone is more than most young girls can do. They usually have no support from family or friends to carry the pregnancy to full term. Many come from religious families who they fear will turn their backs on them if they know of the pregnancy. There are women who have been in abusive relationships that they are trying to escape when they find out they are pregnant. Many feel that by giving birth they will be forever tied to this abuser, or that they would be bringing a child into the world to be abused as they have been. They have good reason to think this way. The court system will give the father rights to visitation which will not only give the abusive man access to the child but to the mother as well. It is a total myth that women use abortion as a form of birth control. If that were true women would have upwards of 20 to 30 abortions in a life time.

At the clinic I worked we counseled the women/girls as to their options. If they were having an abortion solely due to financial reasons we gave them information of government welfare that would assist them with the cost. I have found that most people who oppose abortion also oppose welfare. Some women choose to carry their pregnancies to full term when they were given information on Medicaid, WIC, etc. So my question to those that oppose both abortion and welfare, pick which one means the most to you because in the real world you can't have it both ways.

For the idiot that said it is as simple as don't have sex, I have one question. Have you ever had sex without the intention to impregnate yourself (if female) or your partner (if male)? If you have then you have done the very same thing you are being so judgmental of other humans for doing. From your post you give the impression that you see no other reason for having sex. Otherwise you are a fool. I think it is the later.

For those that think abortion is killing a baby and should not be an option unless there is a rape or incest, I have to ask you this. Why does this "life" you hold so precious that you would condemn and call every other women/girl for terminating a murderer suddenly loose value to you if the woman was raped? Is it still not a "life" no matter how it was brought about? You say the "baby" is innocent, so what changes when it was conceived by rape? Is it then guilty of some wrong doing and therefore it no longer holds a place of affection with you? Roll Eyes

For any women in this discussion that finds the rights of another woman to have an abortion wrong or immoral, I say you must be very fortunate to have never been in a situation that you had to make such a choice. Thank your lucky stars and try to understand that not every woman has the support, and love that you obviously had. Women who oppose abortion are the worst to me. I have given birth to one child and without the love and support of my husband and family I sincerely don't know how I would have done it. If I had not been in a financial state that allowed me to have my child without worrying where its next bottle or diaper was coming from, I don't think I would have choose to given her life. If you are so selfish that you would bring a child into this world that you are neither financially or emotionally able to support then you are not a good mother at all.

Then you have those that say adoption is an option. Well for some it is. We told each woman/girl of this option and provided information if that is what they choose. That is not always a viable option. Carrying a pregnancy full term can be very hard for someone who must work a full time job to support herself or others. Morning sickness, back pain, swelling, complications that require complete bed rest, just to name a few can make holding down a job impossible.

It was extremely rare to see a woman/girl come to the clinic for a second or more abortions. There is only a few cases that I can recall that it happened and those women were mentally ill. There are women who suffer from mental illness that can not be held responsible for their actions. They need help. We offered them that help.

The ones that always got to me the most were the women who had 2 or 3 children and were married to good for nothing men and could not afford or manage another child AND him. This happens more than many think. The men in this discussion should spend more of their time preaching to other men about responsibility than to the women that have abortions.

The other group of women that truly got my complete sympathy are those that found out that there fetus had several life threatening defects. Yes there was a chance that the baby could survive once born, but their lives would be nothing but surgeries, pain, and suffering. These women wanted to be mothers, but made the very unselfish choice of not delivering a baby to suffer and die a miserable death, just so they could say "I didn't have an abortion"

Even the teenage girls or young women that had no physical reasons to not carry a pregnancy to full term, had their own very good reasons. Life is not as black and white as you self righteous few here perceive it. There are way more gray areas.

One more thing. Abstinence does not work. Google the statistics. Humans have a very strong drive to mate. Hormones and emotions over ride logic many times. If you are someone that never had sex outside of marriage or a stable long term relationship I feel pretty confident in saying it was more likely the case of either lack of option or social dysfunction. Otherwise you would have on some occasion made the mistake of having sex with someone who either you didn't love or didn't love you. You did it for the happy warm and fuzzies just like every other human being. You were just lucky and got away with it with no strings attached.

Stop trying to dictate a womans health choices and start educating our young people on the dangers of unprotected sex.Teach young boys that by pressuring young girls into sex is not their right of passage and holds a responsibility on both sides. That is if you truly want to make a difference and this is not all just a bunch of holier than thou god-freaks that just like to get up on your soap boxes and tell the rest of the world how to live a good Christian life. Roll Eyes
DarkAngel,

Opposition to abortion does not make one "self-righteous" or "holier than thou". Nor does it mean an anti-abortion advocate is on a soap box.

Many people believe that abortion is murder. I am one of them. It is planned, elective destruction of life. What more can I say?
I agree that more education is needed. No discussion there- kids are too sexually advanced these days. They all need to cool it.
But is it murder? Well....is it a person? A human being that ends up dead after an abortion?
What's your time-frame? Heartbeat? Sensory development? Viability? When is it "okay" to end a life.

And yes...it is a baby. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding his/her conception. The end result is the same: a child.
The mothers rights are not the subject of debate. The rights of the unborn child are the issue here.
Now- you gave an analogy of eating an egg- potential for life.
THAT EGG IS NOT FERTILIZED. It is NOT the same.
Abortion is not the destruction of ova, or "eggs". It is the destruction of already fertilized, implanted embryos or fetus. Your analogy doesn't hold water in that debate.
You claim to have helped all these women. But I beg to differ. In helping these women, how many lives did you end?
Sorry- you can't call people who think abortion is murder "selfrighteous" and not expect a response. You do not know my financial/reproductive/social history, so do not put a label on me. And I will ask you to extend that courtesy to the other women on this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by DarkAngel:
Oh how the self righteousness abounds in here!

Murder? Please. US law defines it as such:"Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."

Hi Dark,

Thank you, my Friend! You have given a perfect description of abortion -- and, particularly of Partial Birth Abortion.

It most certainly is "unlawful" in the eyes of God -- even though our secular, Far Left Liberal leaders condone it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
dark,
Did any of those women you counseled go to an adoption agency?

Did any of those women get any kind of religious counseling?

Hi B,

Would not that be a better question if it said "Christian" counseling? Just a thought.

For "religious" counseling could include the atheist religion, the secular religion, or even the New Age religion. I am not so sure they would get good counseling from those groups.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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