God is Imaginary

Spend a lot of time obsessed with a imaginary deity dontcha?  I bet if Jesus came back the atheist get along gang would quit their jobs to follow him around.

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Nope, doesn't take a lot of time at all, and certainly no where near the time you spend obsessed with obama.

Best, it is really tricky to understand the trinity. The relationship between the Father and the Son- each separate yet they are One. Maybe if you studied the Trinity it would be more clear? And I don't think it was so much to make God happy, but to show us the way to live- that might bring us to everlasting life. If its not something that interests you, that's your choice, obviously- but why do you spend so much time thinking about what you claim to be make believe? Just honestly curious....

Well vp, how many times do I have to explain why? That's a "defense question" all of you ask even when it has been explained over and over why atheists discuss religion. Religion and politics are the two main forces in MY country. Why would I pay attention to politics and give religion a "pass"? Why speak out against abortion? Why speak out against prejudice? Why speak out against murder? Why speak out about anything? Because they are issues that demand attention, just like religion demands it.

 

Why should we ignore it? Why should we stop discussing it? Why shouldn't we have our opinions about it heard? Why would christians speak out against certain books and ask for them to be banned? Why do christians call for "boycotts" of companies that they feel have "insulted" their god? I'll gladly stop mentioning religion when the "religious" stop telling me what I should believe, where I should or shouldn't shop, what I should or shouldn't teach my kids, (and if I don't they will) and that I shouldn't have any say in any of it and let them do exactly what they want to do even against MY wishes. 

 

Since I don't see that happening in the near future I will be speaking out about what I feel is wrong with religion and wrong with others pushing it on people, and demanding they push it on to their kids. You believe in a god, so why do YOU come here and discuss it constantly? What is the point in that? Why not just go about your business without making threads about religion? Do you feel it is somehow your place to get it out there? We should be quiet and let people like bill LIE about atheists and our "intentions" and how we live? Would you sit still for that or would you speak out? Sorry but I'm not interested in any "relationship" between father and son, or the trinity. 

BTW vp, christians go to atheist sites and post all the time. Christians go to atheist meetings and nose around. I certainly don't go to churches and lurk around "listening" and seeing if there is someone there whose life I can ruin.

Hi Jennifer,

 

Your new discussion tells us:

 

Contemplate the crucifixion: Have you ever thought about how bizarre the crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven.  He looks down onto earth and says to himself:  Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...

 

It makes no sense, does it?  Why would an all-knowing being need to have humans kill himself (Jesus is God, after all) to make himself happy?  Especially since it is a perfect God who set the whole thing in motion exactly the way he wanted it?  The whole story of the crucifixion is absurd from top to bottom if you actually stop to think about it.

 

Actually, while I realize that you will bury your head in the sand and refuse to read my new discussion -- it DOES answer your stated and implied question very well.    That discussion is titled "Is Anyone Created As An Abomination In The Eyes Of God?" and addresses completely the reason for the crucifixion and God's view of sin.

 

As I said, I have to assume that you, even though you declare that all things "politic and religion" interest you -- that you will resolutely refuse to read my post.   Okay, no problem.  However, since you raised the question -- I would assume you would like an answer.  But, maybe not.  Maybe your motivation is like Vic told us about his post several days ago,"I just posted it to start an argument."

 

However, the invitation is open to you and all our Forum Friends -- members and "readers only."

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Statistically analyze prayer

The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination.

How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:

• It does not matter who prays.
• It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god.
• It does not matter what we pray about.

If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.

 

For example, this article says:

And:

This article from March, 2006 discusses the fact that the same conclusion was reached in another study:

In this article we find an amazing quote where theologians and religious leaders declare that prayer has no actual effect:

This is a remarkable example of "positive spin" -- religious leaders are "breathing a sigh of relief" because prayer has been shown to be meaningless. The fact that prayer is a total waste of time does not matter to them. It does not matter that all of Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible have been proven completely false.

A peer-reviewed scientific study published in 2001 did indicate that prayer works. According to this article:

This study was later proven to be completely fraudulent. However, everyone who cut out the original article in the NYTimes and posted it on their refrigerators still has that article as "proof" that prayer works.

This article entitled A prayer before dying uncovers another case where a "scientific study" of prayer is unmasked as fraudulent.

It's not just prayer that is ineffective. Not even a hopeful attitude helps. According to this article:

The dictionary defines the word "superstition" in this way:

The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The "power of prayer" is actually "the power of coincidence."

Therefore, as in Proof #1, one of two things must be happening:

• God is imaginary.
• God does exist, but he never answers prayers. Unfortunately, God is defined by the Bible to be a prayer-answering being. The contradiction between the reality of God and the definition of God proves that God is imaginary.

Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary.

 

But you see I believe Obama is real.

 Plenty of other people believe a god is as real as obama, and has a say in our lives. There's the rub. 

But you don't

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#9 with a very whiny tone.

Jenn I hear what you are saying. But if religion interests you in the sense that it is a driving force in this country, and is impeding your civil rights I would certainly understand you speaking out against those issues. But this, calling the crucifixion ridiculous and such, well, I'm sorry I don't see the gain in that- With all due respect I do wonder what you would hope to gain by such a post- I mean, the events of the crucifixion are hardly social issues. Do you see what I'm saying? There is a difference between speaking out against religion if you feel some sort of an injustice - but to make a mockery of a religion is....just unnecessary and gains no purpose. Just my 2 cents.

How do you feel it is "unnecessary"? Why should we refrain from pointing out the contradictions, and yes, the ridiculous stories in the bible? Christians might label it a "mockery" but they have no problem at all mocking others beliefs or non-beliefs. So we are supposed to treat religion as a "sacred cow", not to be touched, and sit back and "take it" when lied about? Why? 

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So what? Doesn't change the fact that plenty of people do, and want to force everyone else to live as if they believe.

 Look at historical gods

The belief in "god" seems to be ubiquitous through the ages.

We know, for example, that the ancient Egyptians believed in their gods so fervently that they built massive structures like the Great Pyramid -- still today one of the largest and most enduring human constructions ever created. Despite that fervor, however, we know with complete certainty today that the Egyptian gods were imaginary. There is no evidence of their existence. Thus we do not build pyramids anymore and we do not mummify our leaders.

More recently we know that tens of millions of Romans worshiped Jupiter and his friends, and to them they built magnificent temples. The ruins of these temples are popular tourist attractions even today. Yet we know with complete certainty that these gods were imaginary. There is no evidence for their existence and thus no one worships Zeus any more.

Much more recently, we know that the Aztec civilization believed in their gods so intensely that they constructed huge temples and pyramids. In addition, Aztecs were so zealous that they were sacrificing hundreds of human beings to their gods as recently as the 16th century. Despite the intensity, however, we know today that these gods were completely imaginary. The Aztecs were insane to be murdering people for their gods. Killing a person has no effect on rainfall or anything else. We all know that. And there is no evidence whatsoever demonstrating that the Aztec gods exist. If the Aztec gods were real, we would still be offering sacrifices to them and these sacrifices would be effective.

Today's "God" is just as imaginary as were these historical gods. The fact that millions of people worship a god is meaningless.

The "God" and the "Jesus" that Christians worship today are actually amalgams formed out of ancient pagan gods. The idea of a "virgin birth", "burial in a rock tomb", "resurrection after 3 days" and "eating of body and drinking of blood" had nothing to do with Jesus. All of the rituals in Christianity are completely man-made. Christianity is a snow ball that rolled over a dozen pagan religions. As the snowball grew, it freely attached pagan rituals and beliefs in order to be more palatable to converts. You can find accounts like these in popular literature:

• "The vestiges of pagan religion in Christian symbology are undeniable. Egyptian sun disks became the halos of Catholic saints. Pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son Horus became the blueprint for our modern images of the Virgin Mary nursing Baby Jesus. And virtually all the elements of the Catholic ritual - the miter, the altar, the doxology, and communion, the act of "God-eating" - were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions."

   

• "Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans."

This article points out that, "It has been noted since antiquity, and in modern scholarship since the 19th century, that Jesus Christ has striking parallels to other deities worshipped in Hellenistic religion, specifically to the cult of Dionysus in the Greek mystery religions and with the Buddha." The article goes on to demonstrate striking similarities between Christianity and the religions that came before it.

It is extremely hard for a Christian believer to process this data, but nonetheless it is true. All of the "sacred rituals" of Christianity, and all of Christianity's core beliefs (virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) come straight from other religions that were popular around the time of Jesus. Articles like this and this can help you learn more. Once you understand the fundamental truth of Christianity's origins, the silliness of the whole thing becomes apparent.

Obviously the pagan believers, from whom Christianity derived its myths, worshiped gods that were imaginary. If Gods such as Horus, Ra, Mithras, etc. were real, we would have proof of their existence and everyone would be following those gods. Our "God" and "Jesus" today are simply extensions of these imaginary forerunners. Therefore God is imaginary.

Well I would be careful to generalize - I do have a problem with mocking "anyone's" religion or lack thereof. I respect your position as an atheist and I would challenge you to show me anything which would state otherwise.

Show you something that says otherwise?

 

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But this, calling the crucifixion ridiculous and such, well, I'm sorry I don't see the gain in that- With all due respect I do wonder what you would hope to gain by such a post- I mean, the events of the crucifixion are hardly social issues. Do you see what I'm saying? There is a difference between speaking out against religion if you feel some sort of an injustice - but to make a mockery of a religion is....just unnecessary and gains no purpose. Just my 2 cents.

Of course it gains a purpose. It weakens the grip religion has of the minds of those that choose to believe in these silly fairy tales. As more and more voters are forced to recognize they are being duped in order to pervert the government of this nation to a theocracy the power of those behind those fairy tales is lessened. There is less money dropped into collection plates. As more churches fail, more freedoms prevail. And more ignorant old men like Bill mumble to themselves with no one listening.

What's your point? I stand by my comment- I respect the fact that you don't believe in God But I don't say you're naive or ridiculous. Quoting my post is not demonstrating any lack of respect whatsoever. I do not push my beliefs on anyone- I explain my beliefs and defend- I don't attack atheists because of their position. and I certainly do not poke fun at peoples religious beliefs- that would be in poor class, no matter who you are.

 Think about science

Notice what happens when anyone is "miraculously cured". A person is sick, the person prays (or a prayer circle prays for the person) and the person is cured. A religious person looks at it and says, "God performed a miracle because of prayer!" That is the end of it.

A scientist looks at it in a very different way. A scientist looks at it and says, "Prayer had nothing to do with it - there is a natural cause for what we see here. If we understand the natural cause, then we can heal many more people suffering from the same condition."

In other words, it is only by assuming that the belief in prayer is a superstition and therefore God is imaginary that science can proceed.

You can see a direct example of science at work in this article:

Some mold was growing on one of the dishes... not too unusual, but all around the mold, the staph bacteria had been killed... very unusual. He took a sample of the mold. He found that it was from the penicillium family, later specified as Penicillium notatum. Fleming presented his findings in 1929, but they raised little interest. He published a report on penicillin and its potential uses in the British Journal of Experimental Pathology.

Fleming worked with the mold for some time, but refining and growing it was a difficult process better suited to a chemist. The work was taken over by a team of chemists and mold specialists, but was cut short when several of them died or relocated.

In 1935, Australian Howard Florey was appointed professor of pathology at Oxford University where he headed up a laboratory. This was a daunting task in an economically depressed time, and seeking funding for the researchers and work he hoped to do took much of his time. One researcher he hired soon after his arrival was Ernst Chain. Chain was paid to do cancer research, and work that spilled over into Florey's own interest and work on lysozyme. Chain became quite enthusiastic about the search for antibacterial chemicals. In looking back at old articles written about lysozyme, including those by Fleming in the 1920s, he happened across Fleming's paper on penicillin. "I had come across this paper early in 1938 and on reading it I immediately became interested," he wrote.

The Oxford team, as Florey's researchers have become known, began experimenting with the penicillin mold. They took it one step further than Fleming did: they did not just try it topically or in a petri dish, but injected it in live mice. With controlled experimentation, they found it cured mice with bacterial infections. They went on to try it on a few human subjects and saw amazing results. By now it was 1941, and England was at war. As Fleming first foresaw, the wartime need for an antibacterial was great, but resources were tight and penicillin still very experimental. Florey had connections at the Rockefeller Foundation in the United States, however, and it funded further research.

Did Fleming or Floring say, as a religious person would, "The death of this bacteria is a miracle! God has reached down and killed it in response to our prayers!" Of course not. Instead, they completely ignored "God" and understood that the belief in prayer is a superstition. They determined what was actually happening through experimentation and then made useful medicines from the mold. They took a rational approach rather than a religious approach and we all benefit from penicillin and its many derivatives today.

All of science works in this way. Only by assuming that God is imaginary andprayer is meaningless can science proceed.

The reason why scientists must assume that God is imaginary in order for the scientific method to work is because God is imaginary.

Veep,

 

When anyone hears a voice in one's head, it's no excuse for that person to dictate the behavior and thoughts of anyone else.  Believe if you want, leave us alone.

 

Best is right, there is nothing original about Jesus.  It had all been done before.  My research shows that Paul came along soon after Jesus, and the Gospels followed to fill in the gaps of this Christ character that Paul popularized.  In doing so, the Greeks borrowed from their own tradition, Old Testament writings, Egyptian influences, and popular stores of god-men who performed miracles in the company of traveling disciples such as Apollonius of Tyana.  Look him up.

 

People have taken their personal "experiences" as license to run the lives of others for thousands of years, and it's time to stop it.  You're welcome to your own opinions, of course, but your kind has absolutely no right to say that, for example, non believers are not competent to run for public office.  You have no right to say that my niece or daughter cannot have an abortion.  The voices in your head are no reason to teach our children nonsense about biology in public schools.

 

I use "your" and "you" in the royal sense.  I know that you, personally, are of a somewhat different stripe.  But the religious, especially Christian and Muslim, communities as a whole engage in an oppressive tyranny which I would be ashamed not to confront and challenge.

 

On a deeper, more human level, there is the issue of the definition of reality.  Faith is not only a poor method for doing so, it is antithetical to the human potential to explore and discover the ways of the Universe.  Faith begins with a cylindrical premise into which the square facts of knowledge must be pounded, when they can.  Faith is no virtue, it is a veil over the eyes of otherwise intelligent, curious, honest people.  But, faith is not impervious to the truth.  Only when the reasons and results of faith are exposed as the retrogressive frauds they are can we progress, and such progress is rapidly being made.  In every recent religious survey, non-belief is quickly making enormous strides.  The superstitions of especially the god of Abraham are falling away, and with the best of reasons.  Those superstitions do not stand the test of reason.  Honest, brave, ethical people are finding them harder and harder to swallow.

Don't take this personally, but you asked.  It's taken 2000 years, and hundred of years of darkness, suffering, bigotry, violence, and hatred to overcome, but dogmatic religion is being overcome.  We'll all be better off when we all see reason.  We'll all be better off when morality is the outcome of philosophical discussion in the present, rather than some revelation of a filthy shepherd 2500 years ago.

 

I'm delighted to be alive during the beginning of this new movement, this Awakening, this new Age of Enlightenment.  There's no going back now, no succor, no tolerance of the bigotry and hatred that has marked Levantine religion for so long.  We are laying the groundwork for a better era, should we fail to destroy ourselves arguing over whose god can beat up whose god.

 

Would you prefer a world of atheists, or a world where Iran has The Bomb?

 

 

DF

 

 

Deep- thanks for taking the time to explain that Cheers- veep!

There was a time religion was all powerful. It was called the Dark Ages. The right wing nuts want to take us back there.

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i fully agree with you on this statement!!!!

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Plenty of left wing nuts want us back there too, but in their scenario they are gods. 

LOL! hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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If a child is born into a Christian home or the parents became Christians while the child was still young enough to be taught/influenced as to what to believe/not believe, that child would never dream of questioning the existance of God/Jesus because Christianity was always a part of their life. Mom & Dad said it, so it must be true.

A child is taught that God is, was, and always will be. No one made Him, He just always existed & they are given a book to vertify every detail. Children are usually very open to accepting it all because their parents/Pastor would never teach something that wasn’t true. So that child grows into an adult, never questioning, then the cycle continues with their children.

 

I was raised in such a home. Heaven forbid that someone would even suggest questioning the existance of God. Very few people will question it, even during those times that it seems God isn’t listening or not answering prayers. During those times we’re told it’s God’s will so we accept it & never question.

 

During a very traumatizing time in my life, of which few people ever experience, I got angry, & started questioning. The more I questioned, the less the answers I received satisfied me. Nothing ever happened the way the Bible said it would. We become programmed robots, always accepting, never questioing/doubting.

 

It finally got to the point that I said no more. Nothing in church or that book (Bible) brought answers that satisfied, contentment or happiness. Nothing but questions, with no answers. That’s when I starting searching for what was real.

 

When I came to this forum, the Atheist were saying things that made sense to me, things I had questioned. They never once judged me, never once tried to bring me into their “cult” as some Christians referred to it. Any questions I asked were answered, but never in the way of, this is the way it is, so accept it. That was the kind of answer I received from Christians.

I’m glad that I found Jenn, Deep, Jank, etc., here. They have found their truth, & I think they have as much right to be here as any of us. The Christians give their opinions, the way they believe & why, so why doesn’t Jenn, Deep, & Jank have the right to be here & do the same?

 

(The written word is hard to understand how it's meant. I do not mean for my post to offend anyone. It's just my opinion in how I see things) 

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Veep, what about Jenn's post? I thought her post explained alot too.

 

The comparsions she made about speaking out about politics, abortion, prejudice, & murder were right on. Those things are no different than speaking out against religion. Why speak out about any of those things but not religion? As she said, those are issues that demand attention too, just like religion.  

 

If you believe that Jenn makes a mockery of religion, what would you call what Bill Gray is doing? Is he not doing everything he can, constantly, on this forum, to turn people away from any kind of religion? He is no more than a worker for Satan, so why is he never chastised like Jenn is? Why does he get a pass? Is it because he says he believes in God? Saying it doesn't mean anything.

Who gives Bill a pass?

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If a child is born into a Christian home or the parents became Christians while the child was still young enough to be taught/influenced as to what to believe/not believe, that child would never dream of questioning the existance of God/Jesus because Christianity was always a part of their life. Mom & Dad said it, so it must be true.

A child is taught that God is, was, and always will be. No one made Him, He just always existed & they are given a book to vertify every detail. Children are usually very open to accepting it all because their parents/Pastor would never teach something that wasn’t true. So that child grows into an adult, never questioning, then the cycle continues with their children.

 

I was raised in such a home. Heaven forbid that someone would even suggest questioning the existance of God. Very few people will question it, even during those times that it seems God isn’t listening or not answering prayers. During those times we’re told it’s God’s will so we accept it & never question.

 

During a very traumatizing time in my life, of which few people ever experience, I got angry, & started questioning. The more I questioned, the less the answers I received satisfied me. Nothing ever happened the way the Bible said it would. We become programmed robots, always accepting, never questioing/doubting.

 

It finally got to the point that I said no more. Nothing in church or that book (Bible) brought answers that satisfied, contentment or happiness. Nothing but questions, with no answers. That’s when I starting searching for what was real.

 

When I came to this forum, the Atheist were saying things that made sense to me, things I had questioned. They never once judged me, never once tried to bring me into their “cult” as some Christians referred to it. Any questions I asked were answered, but never in the way of, this is the way it is, so accept it. That was the kind of answer I received from Christians.

I’m glad that I found Jenn, Deep, Jank, etc., here. They have found their truth, & I think they have as much right to be here as any of us. The Christians give their opinions, the way they believe & why, so why doesn’t Jenn, Deep, & Jank have the right to be here & do the same?

 

(The written word is hard to understand how it's meant. I do not mean for my post to offend anyone. It's just my opinion in how I see things) 

 

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I was born into a christian home. I have to say though, it was nothing like bill's and a few others idea of a christian. We never heard other people run down because of their beliefs, and we were friends with anyone we wanted to be friends with, despite their church affiliation. We were free to visit their church if asked and we wanted to do so, and it wasn't unusual for them to go to church with us. Of course my parents had to know the people, that should go without saying, and we'd have never been allowed to visit a "snake handling" church, but you couldn't have paid us to do that. I've posted it before, if anyone had told me before age 13-14, maybe a little older, that there was no god, I'd have thought they were crazy.

I only had a vague idea of what an atheist was, and had no idea then, that believers could become atheists. No one "got to me", there was no sudden desire to "follow the world", whatever the heck that even means, and no "urge" or desire to "start sinning."  I didn't have any trauma and I certainly wasn't mistreated by anyone, even though some on here like to insist something like that happened. But I can understand how a trauma would make someone go, "wait a minute", and start thinking and doubting. I don't call that "blaming god" like some would say it is, but I have always felt like saying too, why not blame your god? If you believe in him, and he's supposed to be in control of all things, and he hurts you like that, who should you blame?

The site is very interesting. It seems like VP has confused me with the author of the site, but no matter, it is still a good site and worth the read. Maybe some of those "thousands" that read the forum, and are going through losing their belief, can get some help from it. 

Deep do you not ever hear voices in your head?

Select one of the answers below please.

1. No, never, absolutely not.

2. Not sure;  it is possible though.

3. If I do they are insignificant in that the do not cause a recognizable reaction on my part.

4. Sometimes I feel I do and I admit I have possibly responded in some way; the response could have been involuntary.

5. Yes, not often, but they have minor influences and I cannot argue them as being  abnormal.

6. The craziest thing I have ever heard.

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As though the crap you put on here is not to start an argument.

Invitation? How many people you think will take you up on that, Billy?

Semi- are you really suggesting that I give bill gray "a pass" and chastise jenn? Really?

Semi I think you have definitely selected your Shaman Bestworking.

She is much better in these mental rituals and you are confident in her abilities .

Nothing wrong with that. Absolutely normal behavior.

Some find their Shaman as voices in the head. I suspect several on here in that category.

As long as these Shamans are not too loud or too many or do not have too many conflicting ideas their subjects will hop along with society quite comfortably.

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Very well put.

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Is that what YOU call all the voices in your head? Must be a mess in your head, and really awful when your voices start to see which one is going to post.