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A friend passed this on to me, I checked it out on snopes and it's true. I think you'll find it interesting and scary. It picks up at a conference in Washington DC.

--Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an
individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces
difficult times with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and bencourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the
majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other- that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that
they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common Language and literature; and they worshipped the same Gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- from many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'Pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multiculturalism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce
our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is
being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path especially The American Dream.
__________________________ A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. ”— Thomas Jefferson
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Mexifornia is already lost. The legislature here is controlled by Mexico-First MexAmericans, and everybody has pretty much accepted it.

Gov. Schwartzenegger, the mayor of LA, everyone in San Francisco, and almost all state-level politicians do not want to discuss controlling illegal immigration, only how to accommodate them. Taxes here are out of this world!

Don't let this happen to you.

DF
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
A friend passed this on to me, I checked it out on snopes and it's true. I think you'll find it interesting and scary. It picks up at a conference in Washington DC.

--Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an
individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces
difficult times with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Lamm went on: Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and bencourage immigrants to maintain their culture. Make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. Make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

Third, "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the
majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other- that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that
they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common Language and literature; and they worshipped the same Gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- from many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'Pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multiculturalism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce
our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Discussion is
being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path especially The American Dream.
One of the oldest, and most peaceful nations on earth has FOUR official languages. Switzerland. It is also one of the top ten in per capita wealth.

Germany, China, Spain, France and virtually all African nations have populations that speak more than one language, or dialect.
The United States is a Multicultural society, and has been for over two centuries. The celebraton of Mardi Gras...French. The Christmas Traditions we celebrate, Italian, German, Greek and Turkish. Saint Nicholas was born in Turkey and was a Bishop in Greece. His relics are preserved in Italy. His image evolved from a tall thin Black Man (which is what he was in life) to a jolly old elf with white hair and a chubby figure in Germany.
We celebrate, in enclaves, Tet, the lunar new year, Cinco De Mayo, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico California and Old Mexico's independence from European Colonization. Six Flags Theme Parks began in Texas, as SIX FLAGS OVER TEXAS.

NashBama, stop trying to dominate. If you don't want to celebrate EASTER...don't. If you do want to celebrate EASTER...do. I personally spent the last half of February Celebrating New Years. WERE YOU IN ANY WAY HARMED? Was American in any way harmed?

Just in case you feel left out HashBama, Gung Hey Fat Choy. (Prospero ano Nuevo in Chinese. Mandarin, not Cantonese)
quote:
Originally posted by that smart chick:
First, it is annoying when someone copies and pastes an entire topic. Just get out the parts you feel are pertinent to your reply.

Second, yes Switzerland has 4 languages. They also recognize Swiss Standard German as the formal language. Everyone in Switzerland speaks it, and other languages. They don't have street signs in 5 languages. Using one country as an expample of a positive does not negate the 8+ examples in the original post.

third,
quote:
Germany, China, Spain, France and virtually all African nations

I wouldn't live in any of those countries over the USA. Would you?

quote:
The United States is a Multicultural society, and has been for over two centuries.

Agreed. But that wasn't at issue in the original post. The original post stated
quote:
Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Even barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast.

That is something that all Americans should be concerned about, and we should all do what we can to make sure that this horrible situation is corrected before it is too late.

Smart Chick, I started School in 1946. The students at the school I attended numbered about 300.
HOME LANGUAGES: That I recall, and personally knew of (it was a long time ago) Greek, Spanish, German, one Slavic dialect, Chinese, Japanese, Italian, French, Yiddish and of course English. NO BI LINGUAL INSTRUCTION, and in most cases the new kid was just plain lost for a few months while immersion in English taught him to speak the language. MOST of these foreign born WAR refugees continued to speak their native languages at home. There, at home, the parents learned or not according to where they worked or if they worked. I still have contact with some of these people. Pete, from Greece,is a first class luxury home builder, and chariman of our high school alumni committee. Pauline a Mexican, is the supervisor of one of the departments of the City Of Phoenix Municipal Government. John, Who had a Chinese Name till he got here, was a Superior court Judge. Donnie and Lonnie, the Jewish Twins, made a name for themselves in the Rodeo Circuit in the 60's. but I don't know where they have been lately. Alvin is with the Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra. His father Died in a Concentration Camp, his Mother raised him alone.
Another pair of brothers, who arrived in our town in about 1951, spoke five languages when they arrived. None of them English.

This ANTI-IMMIGRATION Crap is, IN MY OPINION, NOTHING MORE THAN RACISM WITH A NEW LABLE.
Ed--I'm all for immigration and someone coming to America and making their dreams come true, but do it the proper way -- jump through the hoops and earn the right to be here...don't sneak across the border, take a job getting paid cash and not pay taxes and then expect the govt to pick up the tab for your healthcare--abide by the law...don't drive if you don't have a license...etc. and if you break the law -- know that you are going to be deported back to your "mother country"...
I think the only bit of truth in it is the part about people being less educated but that's part of the right wings "vision" for American. Only those that can afford an education get one. And Lamm and his audience are excellent examples of ignorance. The corporate media has been busy "dumbing down" Americans for some time now.

The way to destroy America and make it into a 3rd world country is to send it's industry and manufacturing over seas, turn over family farms to agribusiness, put us in deep debt, keep wages and opportunity low and create a huge wage and income gap and distract and confuse the people with fear and hate while dismantling the constitution. Which is exactly what corporate American is doing with the help of it's corporate stooges in government.

They always blame the poor. It's the easiest target and they can't defend themselves.

Lamm is the one that is promoting tension. America has always been the land of diversity and immigrants. Every group came and lived in little communities of their own background. Their children were educated and assimilated into society through a well fund and quality Public School system. They added their culture to America. Today's immigrants are the same. They hold on to their roots but are still Americans also. Every generation that came here contributed to America and it's culture. It's one of the reasons we became such a great country.

And the US also fought a civil war.

The anti immigration movement is just a tactic to separate working people. The way immigrants came together back at the turn of the century was to form unions, many did not even speak the same language, but they organized and fought together for better working conditions and pay.

Canada and Belgium are not "facing crises" and most of the tension and fighting comes from one ethnic group oppressing another.

We are not getting a "Hispanic Quebec" and that's the kind of inflammatory talk that causes problems. White people are also using this "culture of Victimology" when they talk like this. Immigrants are being used as scapegoats. Americans have been sold out by our government and corporations and they try to point the finger at immigrants. Immigrants are not why many are having trouble making ends meet.

And female genital mutilation is practiced by old cultures in their home country and it's not "growing" in America. It is illegal and education is the way to confront it. Even 3rd wolrd countries are outlawing it.

Immigrants add to our culture and there is nothing wrong with diversity. They came here and adopt us as their home. They still hold on to their old home in their hearts and that's only natural. Diversity shows us we are all the same.

This is really just inflammatory hate talk and fear. We need to organize all working people and build a better America.
Last edited by Jan55
quote:
I think the only bit of truth in it is the part about people being less educated but that's part of the ring wings "vision" for American.


Lamm is a Democrat. Are Democrats "ring wing"? By "ring" I'm assuming you meant to type "right" since that's the only argument you can ever come up with.

There is no anti-immigration movement, it simply does not exist. There are just people who feel our immigration laws should be enforced and that our borders should not be open so that just anyone can walk into our communities.

You are simply part of the problem Lamm described.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
I think the only bit of truth in it is the part about people being less educated but that's part of the ring wings "vision" for American.


Lamm is a Democrat. Are Democrats "ring wing"? By "ring" I'm assuming you meant to type "right" since that's the only argument you can ever come up with.

There is no anti-immigration movement, it simply does not exist. There are just people who feel our immigration laws should be enforced and that our borders should not be open so that just anyone can walk into our communities.

You are simply part of the problem Lamm described.




Yes, I meant Right Wing and Lamm is Right Wing. Democrats have them too. A few years back he was scapegoating senior citizens and blaming them for our problems.

There is an organized anti immigration movement that was started back in the late 70's, I believe and the founder was also involved in creating one of the major conservation groups but I forget the names at this time. I would need to check.

And when people like Lou Dobbs and others in the corporate media and congress continually dredge up images of fear and disaster they are creating a movement. There are also "English Only Movements" and other groups that are anti immigration at their core.

Lamm's talk is meant to scare people with little to back it up. It's creating a scenario that doesn't fit this country at all. The US is not breaking apart and the immigrants are not taking over. It's the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that leads to separatists movements and violent backlashes.

Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.

Corporate Globalization is doing the same around the world and the US is not the only country experiencing an increase in immigration. Poverty and lack of jobs are sending people in earch of a way to feed their families.

There is a problem with some legal immigrants that are being brought here by corporations to replace American workers for lower salaries. These are certain types of Technicians and other professional jobs and nurses and such.

If the global markets crash, as some predict, and we face a major depression the US cannot survive without our industries. And they have all been taken from us. That's what you should be concerned about. Our money would be worthless and we would have no industries to fall back on for basic necessities.

There are major probes facing America and working people that need serious discussions and Lamm's address is nothing but empty fear mongering while the corporate media keep us distracted and going around in circles.

You want to talk about fear scenarios how about a global crash and depression in America and you and your children will have to emigrate to China or India because that's where our jobs went.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
I think the only bit of truth in it is the part about people being less educated but that's part of the ring wings "vision" for American.


Lamm is a Democrat. Are Democrats "ring wing"? By "ring" I'm assuming you meant to type "right" since that's the only argument you can ever come up with.

There is no anti-immigration movement, it simply does not exist. There are just people who feel our immigration laws should be enforced and that our borders should not be open so that just anyone can walk into our communities.

You are simply part of the problem Lamm described.



I agree nash...and yes I'm still biting my tongue and behaving today...
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Ed--I'm all for immigration and someone coming to America and making their dreams come true, but do it the proper way -- jump through the hoops and earn the right to be here...don't sneak across the border, take a job getting paid cash and not pay taxes and then expect the govt to pick up the tab for your healthcare--abide by the law...don't drive if you don't have a license...etc. and if you break the law -- know that you are going to be deported back to your "mother country"...
Gee stephanie, I know that you are not against all immigration, only illegal immigration.
It is really important to understand the definition here. I talked about my friend, and assiciate, Ramon. How he came here as a student, and became an illegal by taking a job. He was doing Graduate School. Here are some things that he was prohibited from doing as a graduate student. He had to have a specific permit to be a teaching assistant...that's a job. He had to have a specific permit to be paid as a bi lingual tutor for elementary or high school students. He became an illegal alien, and continued in school by getting married and taking a job. He did not jump any fence. He, and a very large proportion of illegals are in the country for one reason, and doing something else. The Saudi Nationals who were here learning to fly were NOT illegals. They were here on student visas. Or tourist visas. Every Day thousands of people cross the US Mexico Border to go to work. Almost all of them come into the USA. There are even a number of US citizens who live on the other side of the border and COME INTO THE USA TO WORK. Mexico calls them resident aliens. The workers who are Mexican citizens and work in the us are called non resident alien workers, and THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL.

I have another pal, a Polish Jew who is in the country illegally. He came here via Argentina by air. Landed in San Francisco, with a tourist visa, which he renewed once, and then, after deciding to stay, did not renew again...because he had taken a job. He is an illegal, but he got here legally.

I would like to deport the man who paid me for about 6 months, regular as clock work, withoug paying the taxes he witheld from my paycheck, I had to pay them a couple of years later when the IRS notified me that the money had never been sent to them. I only had to pay taxes on the money I actually got, but I paid Double Social Security Taxes, since the boss had not paid his share or my share.

Actually, I would like court permission to take his house and his business. He did pay fines AND PENALTIES. He was not required to pay me the money he took from me under the guise of the tax code.
And, he did not go to jail.
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Ed--I'm all for immigration and someone coming to America and making their dreams come true, but do it the proper way -- jump through the hoops and earn the right to be here...don't sneak across the border, take a job getting paid cash and not pay taxes and then expect the govt to pick up the tab for your healthcare--abide by the law...don't drive if you don't have a license...etc. and if you break the law -- know that you are going to be deported back to your "mother country"...
Gee stephanie, I know that you are not against all immigration, only illegal immigration.
It is really important to understand the definition here. I talked about my friend, and assiciate, Ramon. How he came here as a student, and became an illegal by taking a job. He was doing Graduate School. Here are some things that he was prohibited from doing as a graduate student. He had to have a specific permit to be a teaching assistant...that's a job. He had to have a specific permit to be paid as a bi lingual tutor for elementary or high school students. He became an illegal alien, and continued in school by getting married and taking a job. He did not jump any fence. He, and a very large proportion of illegals are in the country for one reason, and doing something else. The Saudi Nationals who were here learning to fly were NOT illegals. They were here on student visas. Or tourist visas. Every Day thousands of people cross the US Mexico Border to go to work. Almost all of them come into the USA. There are even a number of US citizens who live on the other side of the border and COME INTO THE USA TO WORK. Mexico calls them resident aliens. The workers who are Mexican citizens and work in the us are called non resident alien workers, and THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL.

I have another pal, a Polish Jew who is in the country illegally. He came here via Argentina by air. Landed in San Francisco, with a tourist visa, which he renewed once, and then, after deciding to stay, did not renew again...because he had taken a job. He is an illegal, but he got here legally.

I would like to deport the man who paid me for about 6 months, regular as clock work, withoug paying the taxes he witheld from my paycheck, I had to pay them a couple of years later when the IRS notified me that the money had never been sent to them. I only had to pay taxes on the money I actually got, but I paid Double Social Security Taxes, since the boss had not paid his share or my share.

Actually, I would like court permission to take his house and his business. He did pay fines AND PENALTIES. He was not required to pay me the money he took from me under the guise of the tax code.
And, he did not go to jail.


Ed--I'm sorry that you want to put these people on a pedestal for all they did for themselves...I don't care how you get to the US -- if you are here ILLEGALLY, you should be deported and required to fulfill the obligation of becoming a legalized naturalized citizen...Whether you crawl on your belly or fly the friendly skies...illegal is still illegal...
quote:
Yes, I meant Right Wing and Lamm is Right Wing. Democrats have them too. A few years back he was scapegoating senior citizens and blaming them for our problems.

There is an organized anti immigration movement that was started back in the late 70's, I believe and the founder was also involved in creating one of the major conservation groups but I forget the names at this time. I would need to check.

And when people like Lou Dobbs and others in the corporate media and congress continually dredge up images of fear and disaster they are creating a movement. There are also "English Only Movements" and other groups that are anti immigration at their core.

Lamm's talk is meant to scare people with little to back it up. It's creating a scenario that doesn't fit this country at all. The US is not breaking apart and the immigrants are not taking over. It's the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that leads to separatists movements and violent backlashes.

Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.

Corporate Globalization is doing the same around the world and the US is not the only country experiencing an increase in immigration. Poverty and lack of jobs are sending people in earch of a way to feed their families.

There is a problem with some legal immigrants that are being brought here by corporations to replace American workers for lower salaries. These are certain types of Technicians and other professional jobs and nurses and such.

If the global markets crash, as some predict, and we face a major depression the US cannot survive without our industries. And they have all been taken from us. That's what you should be concerned about. Our money would be worthless and we would have no industries to fall back on for basic necessities.

There are major probes facing America and working people that need serious discussions and Lamm's address is nothing but empty fear mongering while the corporate media keep us distracted and going around in circles.

You want to talk about fear scenarios how about a global crash and depression in America and you and your children will have to emigrate to China or India because that's where our jobs went.


What a complete load of crap. Just too much wrong with all of this, I don't know where to start.

Lamm is a Democrat, I've never heard of a right wing democrat. You blindly throw the right wing phrase towards anyone who doesn't agree with you. It basically shows your ignorance.

Again, there is no anti-immigration movement to my knowledge. There are only anti-illegal immigration movements. There is a huge difference.

Illegal immigrants should NOT be legalized and put into unions. That is quite possibly the stupidest thing you've said yet. Go back and re-read the article I posted about the plant in Georgia losing it's illegal workforce and having to raise it's wages. Americans who had no job suddenly found work.

You are exactly the problem Lamm describes, it's almost as if he was talking about you specifically. Thank God no one takes you seriously.
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
quote:
Originally posted by EdEKit:
quote:
Originally posted by stephanie:
Ed--I'm all for immigration and someone coming to America and making their dreams come true, but do it the proper way -- jump through the hoops and earn the right to be here...don't sneak across the border, take a job getting paid cash and not pay taxes and then expect the govt to pick up the tab for your healthcare--abide by the law...don't drive if you don't have a license...etc. and if you break the law -- know that you are going to be deported back to your "mother country"...
Gee stephanie, I know that you are not against all immigration, only illegal immigration.
It is really important to understand the definition here. I talked about my friend, and assiciate, Ramon. How he came here as a student, and became an illegal by taking a job. He was doing Graduate School. Here are some things that he was prohibited from doing as a graduate student. He had to have a specific permit to be a teaching assistant...that's a job. He had to have a specific permit to be paid as a bi lingual tutor for elementary or high school students. He became an illegal alien, and continued in school by getting married and taking a job. He did not jump any fence. He, and a very large proportion of illegals are in the country for one reason, and doing something else. The Saudi Nationals who were here learning to fly were NOT illegals. They were here on student visas. Or tourist visas. Every Day thousands of people cross the US Mexico Border to go to work. Almost all of them come into the USA. There are even a number of US citizens who live on the other side of the border and COME INTO THE USA TO WORK. Mexico calls them resident aliens. The workers who are Mexican citizens and work in the us are called non resident alien workers, and THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL.

I have another pal, a Polish Jew who is in the country illegally. He came here via Argentina by air. Landed in San Francisco, with a tourist visa, which he renewed once, and then, after deciding to stay, did not renew again...because he had taken a job. He is an illegal, but he got here legally.

I would like to deport the man who paid me for about 6 months, regular as clock work, withoug paying the taxes he witheld from my paycheck, I had to pay them a couple of years later when the IRS notified me that the money had never been sent to them. I only had to pay taxes on the money I actually got, but I paid Double Social Security Taxes, since the boss had not paid his share or my share.

Actually, I would like court permission to take his house and his business. He did pay fines AND PENALTIES. He was not required to pay me the money he took from me under the guise of the tax code.
And, he did not go to jail.


Ed--I'm sorry that you want to put these people on a pedestal for all they did for themselves...I don't care how you get to the US -- if you are here ILLEGALLY, you should be deported and required to fulfill the obligation of becoming a legalized naturalized citizen...Whether you crawl on your belly or fly the friendly skies...illegal is still illegal...


Ed, it went over her head! lol
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Yes, I meant Right Wing and Lamm is Right Wing. Democrats have them too. A few years back he was scapegoating senior citizens and blaming them for our problems.

There is an organized anti immigration movement that was started back in the late 70's, I believe and the founder was also involved in creating one of the major conservation groups but I forget the names at this time. I would need to check.

And when people like Lou Dobbs and others in the corporate media and congress continually dredge up images of fear and disaster they are creating a movement. There are also "English Only Movements" and other groups that are anti immigration at their core.

Lamm's talk is meant to scare people with little to back it up. It's creating a scenario that doesn't fit this country at all. The US is not breaking apart and the immigrants are not taking over. It's the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that leads to separatists movements and violent backlashes.

Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.

Corporate Globalization is doing the same around the world and the US is not the only country experiencing an increase in immigration. Poverty and lack of jobs are sending people in earch of a way to feed their families.

There is a problem with some legal immigrants that are being brought here by corporations to replace American workers for lower salaries. These are certain types of Technicians and other professional jobs and nurses and such.

If the global markets crash, as some predict, and we face a major depression the US cannot survive without our industries. And they have all been taken from us. That's what you should be concerned about. Our money would be worthless and we would have no industries to fall back on for basic necessities.

There are major probes facing America and working people that need serious discussions and Lamm's address is nothing but empty fear mongering while the corporate media keep us distracted and going around in circles.

You want to talk about fear scenarios how about a global crash and depression in America and you and your children will have to emigrate to China or India because that's where our jobs went.


What a complete load of crap. Just too much wrong with all of this, I don't know where to start.

Lamm is a Democrat, I've never heard of a right wing democrat. You blindly throw the right wing phrase towards anyone who doesn't agree with you. It basically shows your ignorance.

Again, there is no anti-immigration movement to my knowledge. There are only anti-illegal immigration movements. There is a huge difference.

Illegal immigrants should NOT be legalized and put into unions. That is quite possibly the stupidest thing you've said yet. Go back and re-read the article I posted about the plant in Georgia losing it's illegal workforce and having to raise it's wages. Americans who had no job suddenly found work.

You are exactly the problem Lamm describes, it's almost as if he was talking about you specifically. Thank God no one takes you seriously.




A very small and insignificant raise in wages.
I wouldn't really call that any kind of victory or answer to the problems facing the American worker.

The problem with the article is it doesn't really do a follow up on how long these workers stayed. At the time the company was facing an immediate shortage of workers and needed people fast. How long these wages and workers stay is not mentioned or if the company began hiring others at the lower wage. We need to build strong unions with safe jobs and decent wages and benefits, for everybody.

Immigrants are scapegoated and are not the problem. The decimation of our industries is the problem. Immigrants add to the economy. Some pay taxes and others are off the books but still spend some of their money here. They also send money home and return home after they made a certain amount. Some stay. Some pay into Social Security but will never get a dime out of it. They are a work force that can strengthen America and help Amercia rebuild, but only if we set our priorities are right. These unions need to be international unions so immigranst can find decent work in their own home country. They are coming here becasue they need to feed there families.

Immigration is a world wide occurrence and will continue as long as Corporate Globalization continues to displace and exploit people. We are feeling the same results at the loss of our industries. Trying to curb illegal immigrants is like trying to fight the drug war. You can build all kinds of walls and bigger jails but there is no end unless you address the root causes.

Right Wing means right of center. Lamm is a right wing Democrat. It wouldn't matter if there were more or not but Zell Miller, was another and so are people like Lieberman, who is now an independent, but leans towards the right. There are also generally Southern Democrats that frequently vote republican. Others that lean to the right like Rahm Emanuel. who ran the party for the 2006 elections and withdrew support to any liberals and pushed his conservative to middle of the road candidates.

The anti immigration movement is called "FAIR" "Federation for American Immigration Reform" and was founded by John Taton. He also started the Center for Immigration Studies. He is a former Sierra Club member.

Lamm's speech is nonsense and a scare tactic. Diversity has always been America's strength, not it's down fall and it will continue to be so. The Latin American as well as Asian and other immigrants coming to America add to the culture. It s why we surpassed the rest of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by pba:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Yes, I meant Right Wing and Lamm is Right Wing. Democrats have them too. A few years back he was scapegoating senior citizens and blaming them for our problems.

There is an organized anti immigration movement that was started back in the late 70's, I believe and the founder was also involved in creating one of the major conservation groups but I forget the names at this time. I would need to check.

And when people like Lou Dobbs and others in the corporate media and congress continually dredge up images of fear and disaster they are creating a movement. There are also "English Only Movements" and other groups that are anti immigration at their core.

Lamm's talk is meant to scare people with little to back it up. It's creating a scenario that doesn't fit this country at all. The US is not breaking apart and the immigrants are not taking over. It's the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that leads to separatists movements and violent backlashes.

Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.

Corporate Globalization is doing the same around the world and the US is not the only country experiencing an increase in immigration. Poverty and lack of jobs are sending people in earch of a way to feed their families.

There is a problem with some legal immigrants that are being brought here by corporations to replace American workers for lower salaries. These are certain types of Technicians and other professional jobs and nurses and such.

If the global markets crash, as some predict, and we face a major depression the US cannot survive without our industries. And they have all been taken from us. That's what you should be concerned about. Our money would be worthless and we would have no industries to fall back on for basic necessities.

There are major probes facing America and working people that need serious discussions and Lamm's address is nothing but empty fear mongering while the corporate media keep us distracted and going around in circles.

You want to talk about fear scenarios how about a global crash and depression in America and you and your children will have to emigrate to China or India because that's where our jobs went.


What a complete load of crap. Just too much wrong with all of this, I don't know where to start.

Lamm is a Democrat, I've never heard of a right wing democrat. You blindly throw the right wing phrase towards anyone who doesn't agree with you. It basically shows your ignorance.

Again, there is no anti-immigration movement to my knowledge. There are only anti-illegal immigration movements. There is a huge difference.

Illegal immigrants should NOT be legalized and put into unions. That is quite possibly the stupidest thing you've said yet. Go back and re-read the article I posted about the plant in Georgia losing it's illegal workforce and having to raise it's wages. Americans who had no job suddenly found work.

You are exactly the problem Lamm describes, it's almost as if he was talking about you specifically. Thank God no one takes you seriously.




A very small and insignificant raise in wages.
I wouldn't really call that any kind of victory or answer to the problems facing the American worker.

The problem with the article is it doesn't really do a follow up on how long these workers stayed. At the time the company was facing an immediate shortage of workers and needed people fast. How long these wages and workers stay is not mentioned or if the company began hiring others at the lower wage. We need to build strong unions with safe jobs and decent wages and benefits, for everybody.

Immigrants are scapegoated and are not the problem. The decimation of our industries is the problem. Immigrants add to the economy. Some pay taxes and others are off the books but still spend some of their money here. They also send money home and return home after they made a certain amount. Some stay. Some pay into Social Security but will never get a dime out of it. They are a work force that can strengthen America and help Amercia rebuild, but only if we set our priorities are right. These unions need to be international unions so immigranst can find decent work in their own home country. They are coming here becasue they need to feed there families.

Immigration is a world wide occurrence and will continue as long as Corporate Globalization continues to displace and exploit people. We are feeling the same results at the loss of our industries. Trying to curb illegal immigrants is like trying to fight the drug war. You can build all kinds of walls and bigger jails but there is no end unless you address the root causes.

Right Wing means right of center. Lamm is a right wing Democrat. It wouldn't matter if there were more or not but Zell Miller, was another and so are people like Lieberman, who is now an independent, but leans towards the right. There are also generally Southern Democrats that frequently vote republican. Others that lean to the right like Rahm Emanuel. who ran the party for the 2006 elections and withdrew support to any liberals and pushed his conservative to middle of the road candidates.

The anti immigration movement is called "FAIR" "Federation for American Immigration Reform" and was founded by John Taton. He also started the Center for Immigration Studies. He is a former Sierra Club member.

Lamm's speech is nonsense and a scare tactic. Diversity has always been America's strength, not it's down fall and it will continue to be so. The Latin American as well as Asian and other immigrants coming to America add to the culture. It s why we surpassed the rest of the world.


The immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries not only came to this country legally, but also assimilated themselves into the American culture. They did this by learning the language and adopting the customs of the US. They didn't forget their heritage, but they didn't maintain their allegiance to another country either.

Take a look at this and try to tell me again that your comments aren't a bunch of lies.

How to Destroy America
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
quote:
Originally posted by pba:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Yes, I meant Right Wing and Lamm is Right Wing. Democrats have them too. A few years back he was scapegoating senior citizens and blaming them for our problems.

There is an organized anti immigration movement that was started back in the late 70's, I believe and the founder was also involved in creating one of the major conservation groups but I forget the names at this time. I would need to check.

And when people like Lou Dobbs and others in the corporate media and congress continually dredge up images of fear and disaster they are creating a movement. There are also "English Only Movements" and other groups that are anti immigration at their core.

Lamm's talk is meant to scare people with little to back it up. It's creating a scenario that doesn't fit this country at all. The US is not breaking apart and the immigrants are not taking over. It's the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that leads to separatists movements and violent backlashes.

Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.

Corporate Globalization is doing the same around the world and the US is not the only country experiencing an increase in immigration. Poverty and lack of jobs are sending people in earch of a way to feed their families.

There is a problem with some legal immigrants that are being brought here by corporations to replace American workers for lower salaries. These are certain types of Technicians and other professional jobs and nurses and such.

If the global markets crash, as some predict, and we face a major depression the US cannot survive without our industries. And they have all been taken from us. That's what you should be concerned about. Our money would be worthless and we would have no industries to fall back on for basic necessities.

There are major probes facing America and working people that need serious discussions and Lamm's address is nothing but empty fear mongering while the corporate media keep us distracted and going around in circles.

You want to talk about fear scenarios how about a global crash and depression in America and you and your children will have to emigrate to China or India because that's where our jobs went.


What a complete load of crap. Just too much wrong with all of this, I don't know where to start.

Lamm is a Democrat, I've never heard of a right wing democrat. You blindly throw the right wing phrase towards anyone who doesn't agree with you. It basically shows your ignorance.

Again, there is no anti-immigration movement to my knowledge. There are only anti-illegal immigration movements. There is a huge difference.

Illegal immigrants should NOT be legalized and put into unions. That is quite possibly the stupidest thing you've said yet. Go back and re-read the article I posted about the plant in Georgia losing it's illegal workforce and having to raise it's wages. Americans who had no job suddenly found work.

You are exactly the problem Lamm describes, it's almost as if he was talking about you specifically. Thank God no one takes you seriously.




A very small and insignificant raise in wages.
I wouldn't really call that any kind of victory or answer to the problems facing the American worker.

The problem with the article is it doesn't really do a follow up on how long these workers stayed. At the time the company was facing an immediate shortage of workers and needed people fast. How long these wages and workers stay is not mentioned or if the company began hiring others at the lower wage. We need to build strong unions with safe jobs and decent wages and benefits, for everybody.

Immigrants are scapegoated and are not the problem. The decimation of our industries is the problem. Immigrants add to the economy. Some pay taxes and others are off the books but still spend some of their money here. They also send money home and return home after they made a certain amount. Some stay. Some pay into Social Security but will never get a dime out of it. They are a work force that can strengthen America and help Amercia rebuild, but only if we set our priorities are right. These unions need to be international unions so immigranst can find decent work in their own home country. They are coming here becasue they need to feed there families.

Immigration is a world wide occurrence and will continue as long as Corporate Globalization continues to displace and exploit people. We are feeling the same results at the loss of our industries. Trying to curb illegal immigrants is like trying to fight the drug war. You can build all kinds of walls and bigger jails but there is no end unless you address the root causes.

Right Wing means right of center. Lamm is a right wing Democrat. It wouldn't matter if there were more or not but Zell Miller, was another and so are people like Lieberman, who is now an independent, but leans towards the right. There are also generally Southern Democrats that frequently vote republican. Others that lean to the right like Rahm Emanuel. who ran the party for the 2006 elections and withdrew support to any liberals and pushed his conservative to middle of the road candidates.

The anti immigration movement is called "FAIR" "Federation for American Immigration Reform" and was founded by John Taton. He also started the Center for Immigration Studies. He is a former Sierra Club member.

Lamm's speech is nonsense and a scare tactic. Diversity has always been America's strength, not it's down fall and it will continue to be so. The Latin American as well as Asian and other immigrants coming to America add to the culture. It s why we surpassed the rest of the world.


The immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries not only came to this country legally, but also assimilated themselves into the American culture. They did this by learning the language and adopting the customs of the US. They didn't forget their heritage, but they didn't maintain their allegiance to another country either.

Take a look at this and try to tell me again that your comments aren't a bunch of lies.

How to Destroy America




My comments aren't a bunch of lies! You just need to read your histroy!
The reason they came here legally is because we had an open door policy and allowed basically unrestricted immigration, though we did have some standard screening. These immigrants clustered in their own communities and faced the same discrimination immigrants face today. Many never even learned to speak much English and still spoke their native tongue. They made America their new home but also held onto their old homes, flags and all. Some like Italians and Irish and others still have days and parades to celebrate their heritage. It's nothing out of the ordinary.

It wasn't until the second and third generations that really assimilated into society and they brought their culture with them. Today's immigrants are the same and they are coming from around the world.

And talking about lies I think the article is really nothing but lies. Lamm is an oppurtunist trying to use blaming immigrants as a ticket to higher office.
quote:
Originally posted by airborne92:
I know my history. You have shown that you don't know anything about history. The comments you have made show that you want to destroy the country.


know my history. You have shown that you don't know anything about history. The comments you have made show that you want to destroy the country.

You say by the comments I made, show that I want to destroy the country and could you be more specific and explain how my comments show that I want to destroy the country?
Pogo,

It is true that they did form their own communities, and that they still to this day celebrate their heritage. While the parents may not have learned English, or if they did it was slowly, they made sure that their children did learn English and made their children understood the chances they had to better their lives. The Italians and Irish had their own communities, but they also carved their own niche in this country as productive citizens.

There is a major difference between those immigrants and the illegals entering this country now in droves. There was a reason that we adopted different immigration standards in the middle of the 20th Century. We had eradicated most of the deadly childhood diseases, which were still rampant in other parts of the world and in some cases still are today, and more people wanted to come to this country than our society could deal with en masse.

Many people do still immigrate to this country every year legally. I, and no one I know, has any problem with legal immigrants coming to this country. The illegals I do have a problem with. They show up, steal identities, take my tax dollars in the form of government assistance, commit criminal acts, demand special treatment, and think that they are owed something for just showing up.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The reason they came here legally is because we had an open door policy and allowed basically unrestricted immigration, though we did have some standard screening. These immigrants clustered in their own communities and faced the same discrimination immigrants face today. Many never even learned to speak much English and still spoke their native tongue. They made America their new home but also held onto their old homes, flags and all. Some like Italians and Irish and others still have days and parades to celebrate their heritage. It's nothing out of the ordinary.

It wasn't until the second and third generations that really assimilated into society and they brought their culture with them. Today's immigrants are the same and they are coming from around the world.

And talking about lies I think the article is really nothing but lies. Lamm is an oppurtunist trying to use blaming immigrants as a ticket to higher office.



Thanks Pogo!
Let's make this perfectly clear so even pba can comprehend. Immigration and illegal immigration are two totally separate things.

Immigration is when someone comes to the country with permission, becomes a citizen, and blends into society. Illegal immigration is when someone breaks the law by sneaking into the country and does not assimilate with their surroundings. Want proof? Come to Nashville and take a trip down Nolensville Road, you would think you've left the country. No one with half a brain is against immigration, it's ILLEGAL immigration and the idiots that don't know the difference that is the problem. This is the biggest threat to the US today and people are too blind by political correctness and a failure to comprehend the issues to truly understand that. The post that started this is dead on accurate and people like pba are only proving it correct with such ignorant statements.
Some illegal immigrants stay and some don't. The ones that stay do send their children to schools and assimilate. They learn English. Others stay for a while then return.

Immigrants are coming from all around the world. The problem with Mexico is that we have the numbers legally allowed is too low. These people want to come here legally and would except the numbers we allow is too low. I forget the numbers but we legally allow a few thousand or the same number that we allow much smaller countries.

The economy can use the workers and we need more and better jobs. Our industries have been destroyed and the America is facing a serious problem.
quote:
Immigrants are coming from all around the world. The problem with Mexico is that we have the numbers legally allowed is too low.


How many have applied legally? The low number is in relation to the applications received. Why try to enter legally when you can just skip the paperwork, expense, and just cut in line and sneak over? The low number does not mean there is a conspiracy against Mexicans, it just means they don't have to apply, just come across our unsecured borders.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Some illegal immigrants stay and some don't. The ones that stay do send their children to schools and assimilate. They learn English. Others stay for a while then return.

Immigrants are coming from all around the world. The problem with Mexico is that we have the numbers legally allowed is too low. These people want to come here legally and would except the numbers we allow is too low. I forget the numbers but we legally allow a few thousand or the same number that we allow much smaller countries.

The economy can use the workers and we need more and better jobs. Our industries have been destroyed and the America is facing a serious problem.


Amen Smart Chick!
Pogo and others have obviously never been to Russellville -- if they stay they continue to live just like if they were in mexico--they send their kids to public schools because the law says children have to have an eduction--they DO NOT learn the English language they continue to speak Spanish and their kids speak Spanish and only learn English when they get to school for hte most part...they set up their own grocery stores or ask Walmart to carry their products for them...Trust me -- most of them can understnd SOME OF the English language, but do not speak it...why should they? We are bowing to them and having to learn Spanish to accomodate them and I think that is a crock.
The US has set a low number that we allow into the country. There is a long waiting list. It's not like they don't want to be legal. They are under paid and exploited and sometimes they are cheated. When those thousands of immigrants marched they said they wanted to be legal, receive fair pay and have the same rights as everyone else. The quota that are legally allowed needs to be raised.

They cluster in their own small communities and buy from their own stores, just like every other nationality did before them. Like Italians, Polish, Irish, Chinese, it's only natural. Eventually after living here for a number of years they beccome more comforatble and move on.

The ones that stay send their children to school to learn and it is where they learn English, just like every immigrant group before them. It's the second and third generation that assimilate. Even when they live in their small communities they still contribute to our economy. They buy cars, go to the malls and movies etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The US has set a low number that we allow into the country. There is a long waiting list. It's not like they don't want to be legal. They are under paid and exploited and sometimes they are cheated. When those thousands of immigrants marched they said they wanted to be legal, receive fair pay and have the same rights as everyone else. The quota that are legally allowed needs to be raised.

They cluster in their own small communities and buy from their own stores, just like every other nationality did before them. Like Italians, Polish, Irish, Chinese, it's only natural. Eventually after living here for a number of years they beccome more comforatble and move on.

The ones that stay send their children to school to learn and it is where they learn English, just like every immigrant group before them. It's the second and third generation that assimilate. Even when they live in their small communities they still contribute to our economy. They buy cars, go to the malls and movies etc.



I don't think at this point they should raise the quota--in the future in the future maybe...yes they assimilate 2nd and 3rd generation, but many of the 1st generation you mention were here legally---the ones that are here illegally whether they have 2nd 3rd or 4th generations here -- they went about it the wrong way and they should have to answer for what they have done and if that means go back to their home country -- then they need to go back.

If you send the ones that back that are here illegally -- it would open the door for the ones that wish to be here as legalized citizens --

I do see your point -- but I think that just becuase they are here, doesn't make it right for them to be here...
Ed, you're right on. This post is filled with bigots hoping to take over the world with English and white people.

I don't understand why we can't look at the governments that have far outlasted this one to see that we'll still go on if we're not the world superpower. What's so wrong with being just another country in the world? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We'll live far longer if we start thinking more globally, but for now, this ridiculous conservative banter looks like a little lapdog barking at a lion.

The funniest thing about the entire thread is that all these supposed defenders of English can't even speak it well themselves! Those who speak English as a second language blow our own citizens out of the water!
NashbBama, I thought this Thread was interesting enough to hunt down the actual Speech. This Link provides both the paraphrase you posted, and the ACTUAL words of Former Governor Richard Lamm. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp
My reasoning was based in fairly Intimate Knowledge of Colorado, and its former governor.

Most of the speech is quoted and the quotes are accurate.
Snopes, by publishing the Actual Speech Clarifies the question that came to my mind.

Lamm was presenting a cautionary tale. An Attack on what is happening and must be reversed.

The Top Example is Bilingualism combined with undereducation.

If, in our insularism we REFUSE to educate people who do not Speak English, including teaching English at every level, we force isolation of the immigrant, and we keep the immigrant undereducated.

If we Ghettoize populations according to Race and Ethnicity, not allowing full opprtunity, we condemn those populations to "seperate, but equal" opportunities. If we do not allow assimilation, assimilation will not occur. If we try to FORCE assimilation, it will be resisted.

The USA has assimilated Chinese, Italian, German, French, Irish, Vietnamese, Japanese and Mexicans over the past two centuries, and we have done that despite the resistance of groups like the KKK.

Here is a brief history of California, it's worth the three or four minutes it will take to read. http://www.calhistory.com/index.html

Today the economy of California is larger than all but six nations. The ethnic mix includes descendants of people from practically every nation and religion on earth.

This link will provide an overview of the immigration situation in California, and if you navigate to "about us" from this page you will find a statment of principals that includes this "The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted." http://www.cis.org/articles/1998/IR32/impact.html

Stopping immigration is not in the best interest of the country, reasonable controls are.

The ultimate goal should be a system that actually guarantees Liberty and Justice for all.
Very interesting thread here, I see it has stirred up a bit of controversy amongst everyone. I am no expert on this subject but it seems to me that everyone here is looking for a solution to the ever growing problem of illegal immigration into America. And yes, it is a problem. Some say it is due to this or that, but you cannot deny that it is here and it is problematic. Now trust me when I say I have no problems and admire a person for wanting to better their lives and their family’s opportunities by coming to America. But my admiration is completely lost when they do it illegally.

A few points made in previous threads I must challenge.

<QUOTE pba>Illegal immigrants need to be legalized and organized with the American worker to build strong unions to protect working people and rebuild the country. They are not stealing our jobs. Corporations stole our jobs and sent them overseas to sweatshops to increase their profits. America is worse off for it and actually in deep trouble. The American people were sold a pack of lies by the corporate media into supporting "Free Trade" and "Corporate Globalization" and we are now seeing the results so they are scapegoating Mexicans and Latin Americans to take the attention off them and their policies.<QUOTE>

I will agree on the point of the idiocy of NAFTA but I must strongly disagree on the views of the unions. For starters unions have been one of the major forces in the destruction of the Industrial America we all once knew. For just one example, unions were the driving force behind the fall of the steel industry. Argue any points you wish, but the fact remains that a product can only bring a price the current market will bear. And in the 90’s the labor costs of the steel industry in America was higher than the selling price of the steel per ton. For instance in 1990 the average costs for a ton of steel in America were $88/ton, but the labor costs associated with the manufacturing of that same ton were $400. As we all know this caused all of the oldest and largest steel mills in the US to close (US Steel, Bethlehem, etc – BTW of most of these mills were bought by China and Russia, dismantled and sent oversees where they now manufacture the steel for export to the US.). I hear people screaming of corporate greed and strangling the working man, but what happens when your greed forces your company out of business? I can give you hundreds of examples of this. Now I will agree that some industries did intentionally move to Central America (apparel industries) for cheap labor and we should boycott those products and those manufacturers. But in this circumstance we all share a burden.

Pba, I do agree with your end resulting thoughts of the huge problem of the American economy and the loss of our industries, but I disagree with you on a solution and the cause of the demise. I would truly enjoy a good debate with you on this subject in perhaps another thread.

Okay back to the topic: In the beginning of this nation and throughout the years people came to this country to discover and share in the American way of life and the American dream. All peoples assimilated to this country while still keeping their heritage intact. The problem facing us today is the fact that our country is changing to fit their heritage and not keeping with our own. We are compromising the American way of life by Balkanizing the people of America. I applaud people who come to this country to be a positive impact on themselves, their families, their communities, and their country. But we must keep America on the right track and keep forging ahead in the principles that made this country great.
Larz34:

I will agree on the point of the idiocy of NAFTA but I must strongly disagree on the views of the unions. For starters unions have been one of the major forces in the destruction of the Industrial America we all once knew. For just one example, unions were the driving force behind the fall of the steel industry. Argue any points you wish, but the fact remains that a product can only bring a price the current market will bear. And in the 90’s the labor costs of the steel industry in America was higher than the selling price of the steel per ton. For instance in 1990 the average costs for a ton of steel in America were $88/ton, but the labor costs associated with the manufacturing of that same ton were $400. As we all know this caused all of the oldest and largest steel mills in the US to close (US Steel, Bethlehem, etc – BTW of most of these mills were bought by China and Russia, dismantled and sent oversees where they now manufacture the steel for export to the US.). I hear people screaming of corporate greed and strangling the working man, but what happens when your greed forces your company out of business? I can give you hundreds of examples of this. Now I will agree that some industries did intentionally move to Central America (apparel industries) for cheap labor and we should boycott those products and those manufacturers. But in this circumstance we all share a burden.
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Part of the problem in the steel industry was that foreign steel companies were being subsidizes by their governments. Reagan and the democratic congress did give tax breaks and incentives to help our steel industry modernize and be more competitive but instead these corporations used the money to reinvest in other projects and allowed our steel industry to collapse. The government really shpuld have stepped in and protected the worker and the industry more.

For over twenty-five years unions have been blamed and destroyed while the American worker has been giving back benefits, taking pay cuts and producing more. Corporations profits are up, CEO salaries aer up, the stock market is up and productivity is up but the American worker is struggling to get by. Our standard of living is declining. It is directly related to the destruction of the unions, which were formed in the early 20th century and gave us all a good quality of life. This period was one of the Americas best.

I agree with those who say we need stronger unions and we need internatinal unions to protect workers world wide. This will keep corporations from taking jobs to sweatshop labor overseas and allow countries to develop their own industries with workers making fair wages so they won't need to come to America to feed their families.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Larz34:

I will agree on the point of the idiocy of NAFTA but I must strongly disagree on the views of the unions. For starters unions have been one of the major forces in the destruction of the Industrial America we all once knew. For just one example, unions were the driving force behind the fall of the steel industry. Argue any points you wish, but the fact remains that a product can only bring a price the current market will bear. And in the 90’s the labor costs of the steel industry in America was higher than the selling price of the steel per ton. For instance in 1990 the average costs for a ton of steel in America were $88/ton, but the labor costs associated with the manufacturing of that same ton were $400. As we all know this caused all of the oldest and largest steel mills in the US to close (US Steel, Bethlehem, etc – BTW of most of these mills were bought by China and Russia, dismantled and sent oversees where they now manufacture the steel for export to the US.). I hear people screaming of corporate greed and strangling the working man, but what happens when your greed forces your company out of business? I can give you hundreds of examples of this. Now I will agree that some industries did intentionally move to Central America (apparel industries) for cheap labor and we should boycott those products and those manufacturers. But in this circumstance we all share a burden.
________________________________________________

Part of the problem in the steel industry was that foreign steel companies were being subsidizes by their governments. Reagan and the democratic congress did give tax breaks and incentives to help our steel industry modernize and be more competitive but instead these corporations used the money to reinvest in other projects and allowed our steel industry to collapse. The government really shpuld have stepped in and protected the worker and the industry more.

For over twenty-five years unions have been blamed and destroyed while the American worker has been giving back benefits, taking pay cuts and producing more. Corporations profits are up, CEO salaries aer up, the stock market is up and productivity is up but the American worker is struggling to get by. Our standard of living is declining. It is directly related to the destruction of the unions, which were formed in the early 20th century and gave us all a good quality of life. This period was one of the Americas best.

I agree with those who say we need stronger unions and we need internatinal unions to protect workers world wide. This will keep corporations from taking jobs to sweatshop labor overseas and allow countries to develop their own industries with workers making fair wages so they won't need to come to America to feed their families.



You are correct in saying the foreign steel companies were being subsidized by their governments, mainly Japan. However, the companies did not invest in other projects, they closed completely. They are no longer in existence, which means workers lost pensions, jobs, and health care. The government could not have stepped in to save them. The only thing they could have done was outlaw foreign imports of steel. If they would have done that steel would have shot up to 600/ton overnight and the economy in America would have been seriously marred. In time the costs of all goods and inflation would have risen to meet the new costs of the steel and in the end the American workers would have suffered.

You say the American worker has given up many benefits and productivity is up, if so please explain the current failing state of the galvanizing, auto, steel, and fabrication industries. These industries have seen dramatic declines in production for many, many years. As we speak Ford is on the verge of bankruptcy and Chrysler is headed for the chopping block both companies are ensuing massive layoffs. I have witnessed four of the nation’s largest galvanizers close within the last two years and the fabrication industry is in upheavals. The problems they are facing are extreme labor costs and competition from foreign markets. Should the government step in and save these companies?

By your statement the world should organize and create global unions to protect the workers of all countries. What happens when their local economies grow to match that of the US and the workers not in the unions can no longer survive? For instance, workers in Honduras make an average in 25 USD per week (appx 475 Lempiras) for working in the apparel factories. When they organize and implement wages according to the US economy what happens to those people not working in that industry? When a worker is making a desirable living within their economy and multiplies their wages by 25 times what they currently make, inflation in that economy will rise and those left out will starve. Do we implement a global economy controlled and administered by one global government? How is this not socialism?

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