Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In another Religion Forum discussion I began, "Can We Truly Understand End Times Prophecies?" -- my Friend, Punkin, has posed comments and questions on several really important issues: (1) the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, and (2) and what defines a "Holiness" church? For more clarity, I have chosen to post my response to these as two separate new discussions.

Punkin tells me, "Thank you for your time, Mr. Bill. I appreciate the thoughtful response and the time it must have taken for you to write it. My studies have been with the King James, and the New Revised Standard Bibles. I also sometimes use a Thompson study Bible for reference. I agree that Paraphrase Bibles are not for serious study."

Those are good selections. However, depending upon where a person is in his/her study of the Bible, the KJV might be hard to understand at times. When I first began going to Bible studies in 1987, and began to read through the Bible -- I found myself bogged down in Romans. When I mentioned this to our pastor, he asked to see my Bible. It was a KJV, so he gave me a new NASB Harper's Study Bible -- the same Bible I have used since 1987. I have many Bibles, many translations, in my personal library. However, I will typically stay with the NASB, NKJV, KJV, or, in some cases the NIV.

A great Bible web site is Blue Letter Bible: http://www.blueletterbible.org

This web site allows one to view verses, and chapters, in 16 translations -- but, only 12 are in English. The other 4 are Spanish, Latin, and two variations of Greek. You can choose a verse and view it in all 16 translations at the same time.

The web site also has Strong's Concordance, commentaries, and other good info on all verses. It is a great tool for studying the Bible. Also, I use it a lot when I am quoting Scripture in my writings, to prevent typo errors from slipping into the verses. This way, I can copy/paste the verse or passage without worrying about errors.

It also has "Thompson's Chain Reference Special Bible Readings": http://www.blueletterbible.org...hompson/specread.cfm

Next, you tell me, "I find it interesting, and a bit disappointing, that you seem to display such a attitude of superiority. I don't mean to offend you with my questions, I'm just an average person with beliefs that are a little bit different than yours. You might remember that those heathens out there already think we're of a mind that we are going to Heaven and they aren't. That already makes them not like us. You sound real certain about your reading of the Holy Bible. But, if it was so clear, why are there so many different religious denominations?"

First, to address the issue of non-believers not liking us for sharing the truth of the Gospel; while we most certainly do want to win them to the Lord, and we should be sharing His Word with love and gentleness (1 Peter 3:15), we are not in a popularity contest. If we share in love, and people get mad at us for sharing Jesus Christ with them -- as Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 10:14, "Shake the dust of their home from your feet and move on" (paraphrased).

To put that into the context of our Religion Forum, where we seem to have quite a population of atheists and non-believers -- when they get upset at us for sharing the Gospel, look past them to the many other readers -- and direct your sharing to them, to those believers and seekers who may be eager to hear the Gospel shared in honesty and truth.

Next, if I appear to project an attitude of superiority; for that I do sincerely apologize. I most certainly am not superior to other Christian believers -- and, there are many non-believers who are just as moral, many who are more intelligent, and many who are smarter than me. However, to say that I know that I am going to heaven when I die; to say that I know the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God; to say that Jesus Christ is my personal Lord and Savior -- is not being arrogant nor superior. It is merely being factual based upon my knowledge of God's Word, the promises given to us by Jesus Christ in the Bible, and my faith in Jesus Christ.

Regarding heaven and hell -- and which is our eternal destination: yes, I will affirm, without hesitation, that all humans are eternal beings; we are all immortal beings, we will all live eternally. That was made a certainty by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The distinction being where one will live that eternity. There are only two possible eternal choices: heaven and hell. All Christian believers will spend eternity with Jesus Christ, in the presence of God the Father, in heaven. And, all non-believers will spend eternity in the only other possible eternal destination -- hell, in the presence of Satan. Saying this is not being arrogant nor superior; it is only correctly quoting the Bible.

One might ask, "Why would a loving God condemn anyone to hell?" God does not condemn anyone to hell. Everyone has to individually choose for himself or herself to live eternally in heaven or to live eternally in hell. Not choosing is not a choice; by default, that person gets hell.

Next, one might ask, "But, is that fair?"

Yes, because God owns the universe. He created the universe; He created the heavens and the earth; He created man. We belong to Him and the universe belongs to Him. He has the right to make any rules He so desires. However, the good news is; His rules are always fair, just, and righteous. So, when He tells us, "To enter My heaven, you must, by grace through faith -- put your faith in My Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only Way to enter My heaven" -- He has this right. It is His house.

For thirty-two years, this month, I have been married to my beautiful Filipina wife, Dory. Before meeting and marrying a Filipina, I never visited a home where I had to remove my shoes to enter. But, when I began, in 1987, attending a Filipino-American church and attending Bible studies in Filipino homes -- I learned very quickly that I must remove my shoes before entering these homes. For years, I have kept a pair of house slippers in a bag which I take with me to Bible study. I call these my Bible study shoes; for when I enter a home, I remove my street shoes and put on my house slippers, my Bible Study Shoes.

Many, such as me, who were born in America and have lived their entire lives in America may say, "That is not fair. Why should they make you take off your shoes to enter their home?"

Well, there is a simple answer. It is their home. And, I have adapted to their custom.

We live in God's world, His home. He tells us that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY to enter the kingdom of God. So, if a person is so pig headed that he refuses; then, he is allowed to choose the other home -- the kingdom of Satan, hell.

John 1:12 (nkjv), "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."

John 3:36 (nasb), "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 14:6 (nasb), "Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'"

These verses makes it very clear that salvation is a personal choice -- a choice that each individual must make.

So, is it arrogant or acting superior when I say that I know that I am going to spend eternity in heaven? No. For we have the definite promises of Jesus Christ Himself that this is true for all Christian believers.

John 3:16 (nasb), "For God so loved the world (Punkin, Bill, Deep, David, Skeptik, et al -- all people), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 6:47 (nasb), "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Then, Punkin, you tell me, "My Church just calls itself Christ's Church, and we try to do just what the Bible says. Why do you seem to think that the Old Testament is still as valid today as it was before Jesus. Don't you think that the Old Testament's authority passed away when Jesus established his Kingdom back on the Day of Pentecost?"

Should the New Testament church of today put aside the Old Testament and use only the New Testament as our full teaching and revelation from God? Think about that question. If so, how would one explain the Creation, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1)? What do we do with all the New Testament verses where Jesus Himself quotes from the Old Testament? Shall we expunge those verses from the New Testament?

No, my Friend, our Bible is the full 66 books: 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament. The Old Testament looks forward to the cross. The New Testament looks back at His finished work upon the cross.

I prefer to look at Genesis 1:1 as the main building block of the Bible; if we discard that initial foundation -- upon what will we build?

John 1:1 establishes the deity of Jesus Christ. Without that, we would have no Christian faith. Which is more important -- Genesis
1:1 or John 1:1? Both are equally essential -- for upon both has He built our faith and our salvation.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (nasb), "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

Matthew 5:17 (nasb), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

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From Pastor Chuck Smith's (Calvary Chapel) Matthew 5 C2000 Series Commentary (Blue Letter Bible web site):

The law required death for disobedience. Jesus came to fulfill the law by dying for our disobedience. He came to fulfill the prophets where Isaiah said, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we've turned every one of us to our way; and God laid on Him the iniquities of us all" (Isaiah 53:6). He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. I haven't come to destroy it; I've come to fulfill it. And that is why Paul the apostle wrote, "Christ is the end of the law to those that believe" (Romans 10:4); because he has brought us into a new relationship with God that involves our faith in Jesus Christ as the basis for our righteous standing before God, for he fulfilled the law. He did not come to bring an end to it, but to fulfill it, and he fulfilled the requirements of the law for us, dying in our place.

One day Jesus was asked the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" And Jesus answered correctly, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy strength and with all their mind." And Jesus added, "And the second is just like it; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." And he said, "in these two are all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:36-40). This is a summary, a very short summary of all of the law and the prophets; love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself.

Paul the apostle said, "For love is the fulfilling of the law and he who loves has fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8). Now the law was given in negative: thou shalt not, thou shalt not, thou shalt not. Jesus turned it around to the positive: "thou shalt love the Lord thy God, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" and therein is the fulfillment.

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For those immersed in Liberal Theology and for the non-believers, the next question typically will be: "Bill, this says that love fulfills the Law. All we have to do is to love one another; for that is what Jesus told us in Matthew 22. Why isn't this enough to gain a person salvation, to gain entry into heaven?"

First, no one in the Old Testament could be saved under the Law. Romans 3:19-20 (nasb), "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

The Romans 3:20 footnote in my Harper's NASB Study Bible reads: "The moral law serves four definite purposes: (1) it exhibits the moral perfection of God; (2) it reveals the inexcusable guilt of man and convicts him as a hopeless sinner; (3) it provides a standard by which human society is, at least imperfectly, governed; and (4) it serves as a guide to believers as to how they may best please their redeeming God and do His will, which is to them the most important motive in life."

Galatians 3:23-29 (nasb), "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

Under the Law of the Old Testament, no one was saved. But, in Hebrews chapter 11, we read of many Old Testament saints, "By faith Abel" -- "By faith Enoch" -- "By faith Noah" -- "By faith Abraham" and so on. The Old Testament saints were not saved by the Law; they were taught by the Law, they were made aware of their sin nature by the Law -- but, their faith saved them, even as they looked toward their coming Messiah. Yet, even then -- their faith allowed them only to wait in the Bosom of Abraham, in Hades -- until their Messiah, Jesus Christ, came. Then, they were taken into heaven. Thus validating John 14:6 (nasb), "Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'"
The Old Testament saints waited in Hades until Jesus Christ, their Messiah, came to personally take them into heaven -- after He died on the cross to pay "in full" the sin debt for all mankind. (Ephesians 4:8).

Today, Christian believers are taken into heaven upon their earthly death. For the Christian believer, when he breathes his last breath on earth -- his next breath will be in heaven, in the presence of Jesus Christ.

So, no, Punkin, we cannot discard the Old Testament. Yet, the question which all of our atheist Friends will surely raise is, "In the Old Testament, the penalty for homosexuality, fornication, and many other sins was death. Should those people be killed today because of those sins? If the Old Testament is still valid; why not the penalties given there?"

Yes, the Old Testament penalty of death for our sins is still valid. However, praise God, Jesus Christ "paid in full" that physical death sentence we all deserve. Now, we can attain life, spiritual and eternal life, through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for all our sins. In the Old Testament, the penalty for sin was death, physical death. Jesus Christ paid our physical death penalty debt in full. Today, we read in the New Testament, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23 nasb). The wages of sin today is still death: physical and spiritual death. But, Jesus Christ paid your physical death penalty. To have your spiritual death penalty overturned; all you have to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- sincerely invite Jesus Christ to come into your heart and into your life and be your personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). If you do this, you WILL have eternal life with God.

So, Punkin, is the Old Testament valid today? One of the strongest proofs that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God is prophecy. Of the over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, by far the largest portion of them is found in the Old Testament. Prophecies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, begin in Genesis and run throughout the Old Testament all the way to Malachi -- over 300 prophecies of the Messiah. Then we have all the End Time prophecies. If we discard the Old Testament and teach only from the New Testament; we must throw away the richness of God's prophecies to us. If we discard the Old Testament, we must throw away all the great stories of history, all the beautiful poetry and songs found in Psalms, all the wisdom found in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Can you imagine discarding all these treasures?

Punkin, praise God, He gave us the entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament as His full revelation to man. We believe that it is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself; and reveals to all believers the nature, character, will, and purposes of God; that it is the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of mankind, and is the final authority for all matters pertaining to our Christian lives.

Would you really want to discard ANY of this amazing book?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Original Post
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!

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One of the first philosophical principles that we learn are that few things are proofs unto themselves. The Christian Bible, which was compiled from a number of ancient texts, claims to be such an item.

There is a fundamental problem however. Ordinary men in the Dark Ages, selected and edited various manuscripts to make them conform with one another. Additionally, other manuscripts, such as are found in the Catholic Apocrypha, were simply left out. This is a clear fact of history. After the selections were made and edited, the Bible was canonized by the early Catholic church.

It is not a word for word inspired work of God, but a testament to the machinations of men who, in order to secure their own superiority over a largely illiterate, uneducated population promulgated this cynical untruthful book.

Yes, great truths are found in the Bible's teachings. But how can a book, which claims to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and is proven in the historical record to be such a compilation as I have described, be trusted on any count? This is a sad indictment indeed, for it gives comfort to many people.

But the fact remains, that though many are comforted, a larger number of people around the world are condemned by the same writings. This is simply a Middle Ages device to bring certain people (Catholics) into power, and to keep them there.

I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe. In my studies, I have thoroughly read the Bible, and unfortunately have found it wanting. Anything that claims to be the inspired word of God, and is so easily discredited by History, can simply not be.
quote:
Originally posted by LMM:
Max,
You are an atheist.


Now, I am trying to avoid putting labels on the individuals here. I think I know my beliefs better than anyone. There is a difference between atheists and agnostics.

You are a clever, and interesting person. Smiler
I am also observant. If you find fault with all religious references and cannot believe in an entity that created the universe, you are an atheist.

There is no other option.

If you believe in a Higher Power that has no power what is left?
LMM, You are not that observant, evidently. I did not deny the existence of a Higher Power.

Here's what I said,"
I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe."

I want to know the truth. That's all. I think that you're reading meaning into my statement that is simply not there. Sorry, but you must simply take what I say without reading anything else into it.

Going to be now. G'night.
Hi Max,

Welcome to the Religion Forum. Although, I will admit that I do get that strange feeling that you are our dear atheist Friend, Deep, wearing another costume. I am always amused when our atheist Friends feel that strong need to post using different names. It does make me wonder if it is only so that the atheist may dialogue with himself -- therefore lending support to himself through an anonymous donor.

But, be that as it may, you tell us, "Yes, great truths are found in the Bible's teachings. But how can a book, which claims to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and is proven in the historical record to be such a compilation as I have described, be trusted on any count? This is a sad indictment indeed, for it gives comfort to many people.

And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.

Then, you tell us, "But the fact remains, that though many are comforted, a larger number of people around the world are condemned by the same writings. This is simply a Middle Ages device to bring certain people (Catholics) into power, and to keep them there.

The only folks condemned in the Bible are those who have denied God -- and have refused His free gift of salvation which has been "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross. So, in reality, God has not condemned these people; they have condemned themselves by rejecting God's gift of salvation.

Next, you tell us, "I am an agnostic who fervently wishes he knew the truth about the Higher Power, believed by many to have created the universe. In my studies, I have thoroughly read the Bible, and unfortunately have found it wanting. Anything that claims to be the inspired word of God, and is so easily discredited by History, can simply not be."

And, my Friend, LMM, replies, "Max, You are an atheist."

You then respond, "Now, I am trying to avoid putting labels on the individuals here. I think I know my beliefs better than anyone. There is a difference between atheists and agnostics. You are a clever, and interesting person."

How true, Max. There is a big difference between the atheist and the agnostic. The atheist is the one with his head buried in the sand, ostrich-style, afraid to look -- because God just might be real.

And, the agnostic is Humpty-Dumpty sitting on the fence -- ready to fall in either direction -- dependent upon which way the spiritual wind blows.

You claim to have read the Bible; but, I suspect you have read much more of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al -- than of the Bible.

I find it hard to believe anyone has read the full Bible who is not a believer. Why do I feel this way? Well, I recall my own attempts to read the Bible before I was a believer. For many years, I traveled because of my job in the computer industry. I lost track of how many hotel rooms, how many cities, how many airports -- I passed through. And, that kind of lifestyle does get lonely and often depressing. At times when I felt lonely, in need of a spiritual pick-me-up, or just plain needed strength to get through another series of hotel rooms and cities -- I would open the bedside night stand drawer and take out the Gideon's Bible. I had often heard how some folks found comfort and peace reading the Bible -- and I needed that comfort and peace.

I would read a few verses -- and, confused because I did not understand what I was reading -- would put it back into the drawer, turn on the television, or go for a walk. I did lots of walking in those days.

My point is this: I found no comfort in the Bible -- because I did not understand the Bible. To me, it was a nice book that many had recommended; but, it just left me confused. Why was this? Because I did not have the spiritual discernment which one can only get through the Holy Spirit.

In 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 we read, "And even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

That is a good description of me in those days; my eyes were veiled, I was perishing, I could not see God nor understand His Word -- for I was under the influence of the god of this world, Satan.

Why would the Gospel be veiled to the non-believer? Because the god of this world, Satan, has blinded the eyes of the non-believer. He uses those who believe they are smarter than God, i.e., Dawkins, Hitchens, and many of our atheist Friends on the Religion Forum -- to blind the minds of many who might otherwise seek and find the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who said, 'Light shall shine out of darkness,' is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

Yes, the only way a person can have the Light shine into their hearts is for the Holy Spirit to illumine them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many who have not hardened theirs hearts completely, as did Pharaoh in Egypt, always have the chance of cracking the door of their hearts, just a wee bit -- to allow some of the Holy Spirit light to pierce the darkness. Praise God, that happened for me -- and it can happen for everyone who will not allow Satan to completely harden their hearts.

In Luke 8:9-10, after Jesus had told the multitude the Parable of the Sower, his disciples questioned Him, "Then His disciples asked Him, saying, 'What does this parable mean?' And He said, 'To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand."'"

Those whose heart is still totally wrapped in darkness -- will not see, even though the light is coming from Christ Himself.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel speaks of the Parable of the Sower in his commentary on Luke 7-8 (C2000 Series):

So we realize that the Word of God falls on different types of soil, or there is a different reception in the hearts of people to the Word of God. And the Lord is sort of illustrating the four types of people upon whom the Word of God falls.

"Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved" (Luke 8:12).

Immediately there is just nothing, there is no penetration. The Word comes, but immediately Satan snatches it away, and it is as though they had never heard.


That is the spiritual darkness which engulfs all non-believers. That is the spiritual darkness which engulfed me before 1987. But, praise God, by the grace of God -- that changed for me -- and it can change for you.

In 1987, God brought a loving, Godly pastor, Sam Lacanienta, into my life -- and God changed my life through that pastor. It was not overnight; but, it happened. I met Pastor Sam when Dory and I went to a friend's home for a party one Saturday evening. The first thing I noticed was that he was full of love; which I later recognized as Godly love. Because it was a party, he did not preach or evangelize; but, the warmth and love I felt from him made me want to attend their church the next day.

At this church, I felt that same love -- sent by God, flowing through this pastor, and permeating the entire congregation. That love made me want come back the next Sunday. My wife had been trying to get me to go to church for ten years; yet, God accomplished this by showing His love through one man and through one congregation.

The following Friday, my wife, Dory, asked if I wanted to go to Bible study. I had no idea what this was, since all the churches I had wandered in and out of for fifty years -- had never invited me to one. But, we went to the home Bible study at the Nibut home and I felt that same love in this group.

This love, from God, through the pastor, permeating the congregation and the Bible study group -- kept me coming back to Sunday worship and to Bible study for the next six months. That six months was a time of growing for me. With their help, guided by the Holy Spirit, I began to understand the Bible and the messages God has for us in His Bible. It was like light shining into a perpetually dark room; it was God's light finally shining into my heart. At the end of six months, I invited Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and Savior; I became a Christ Follower, a Christian.

That darkness which kept me from understanding the Bible all those years, in all those hotel rooms -- was finally extinguished by the Word of God. And, Max, this can happen for you, for Deep, for Skeptik, for Miami, and for all non-believers -- if you are willing to take your head out of the sand -- or climb down off your agnostic wall -- and see God for who He truly is -- your only Way to have eternal LIFE.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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You are an atheist, just admit it and you will feel better. Skep finally admitted it, DF finally admitted he despises all Christians.


Why would any rational, intelligent, thinking person not admit being an atheist? I would certainly NOT "feel better" if I held irraitonal beliefs unsupported by evidence. I am elated that I am able to know rather than merely believe.

Of course I am an atheist.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Max,

Welcome to the Religion Forum. Although, I will admit that I do get that strange feeling that you are our dear atheist Friend, Deep, wearing another costume. I am always amused when our atheist Friends feel that strong need to post using different names. It does make me wonder if it is only so that the atheist may dialogue with himself -- therefore lending support to himself through an anonymous donor.

And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.


You claim to have read the Bible; but, I suspect you have read much more of Dawkins, Hitchens, et al -- than of the Bible.



Bill, I do not wish to get into fruitless arguments as to whether or not I am in actuality DeepFat. I have been accused of that already by someone else. To answer your accusation, the answer is simply, I am not DeepFat. I admit, he is an intelligent fellow and a worthy intellectual opponent. Which is more than I can say for most of the others here. While DeepFat gives pointed questions, and occasionally expresses his thoughts in an irritating and abrasive manner, no one will question his ability to bring the fight to his opponent. With that in mind, I take your gnostic statement as a compliment!

I do not need to argue your points regarding the origin of the Christian Bible. They are beyond argument. From about 1200, BCE, the Old Testament was carried on in oral tradition until about the second century, CE when the stories began being committed to writing. That the texts were edited for conformity, is beyond doubt. That the early Catholics compiled these texts is without question. That the Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages used its power and authority over its minions is without doubt. And the fact that the church preached conformity to the Bible (its book), or spend an eternity burning in a hell fire, is beyond doubt.

Personally, I do not care what you believe. You are choosing to muse over a book that was entirely the work of men in the Dark Ages who sought to gain and hold onto power. It appears that it is still working on you.

Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?
quote:
And, at this point, I will have to ask of you: Show me one instance where the Bible is in error. Science, archeology, has proven the Bible to be right many, many times -- but, it has never, even once, shown the Bible to be in error. So, Max, please show us reliable historical record which proves the Bible wrong.


Bill, science does not waste time demonstrating the falsity of every absurdity presented by superstitious people. It’s function is to provide us with knowledge. Science has provided us with the laws of nature that govern the universe. For the following story to be true, the laws of science would have to be broken.

The Bible says that a virgin got pregnant by an invisible deity. This illegitimate offspring walked on water, turned water into wine, sent 2000 demons scurrying into swine, raised a dead man from the dead, turned stones into bread. He had all the qualities of supernatural being, but he couldn’t save himself from a handful of Roman soldiers. But after he had been dead for three days, he hopped up and flew off into never-never land to be with his father who allegedly sacrificed him because he loved us so much. Ironically, the father is really the son. Before going, he claimed he would return to earth and save all his followers from the forces of evil. To add absurdity to this story of his death, the Bible claims the purpose of the crucifixion was to remove sin from we humans. After 2000 years, Christ has failed to return--and obviously never will. Sin is as much with us today as it was before Christ.

No acts ever performed by this mythological character have ever been corroborated by historical or archeological evidence. It is just one of the myriad of myths created during human history.

***************************
Which one of the following is true?

Our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
quote:
Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?


Jesus took care of the animal sacrifices. "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." The days of the week were named by men. The order of those days' names was decided by men. Whether you (not "you" as in Firenze) choose to worship on Saturday or Sunday, who cares? The point is to "remember." If the names of the days had been important, the Bible would have read, "So the evening and the morning were the first day, called Sunday." Some might argue "that's why Sunday is called Sunday, because God made light on the first day." Why wouldn't Sunday be the fourth day of the week, though? That's when God made the sun. He also made the moon on that day, so why do we have a Monday? Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.
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Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


Those men naming the days of the week were Pagans.
Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Tiw’s day, Woden’s day, Thor’s day, Frigga’s day and Saturn’s day.

Other than from an ancient and meaningless biblical decree, why should we keep the Sabbath holy?
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.


Well, that didn't take long. What facts am I lacking?
quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


Those men naming the days of the week were Pagans.
Sun’s day, Moon’s day, Tiw’s day, Woden’s day, Thor’s day, Frigga’s day and Saturn’s day.

Other than from an ancient and meaningless biblical decree, why should we keep the Sabbath holy?


David,
That post was a reply to someone else asking about animal sacrifices and the Sabbath. I know those men naming the days of the week were pagans. I researched that topic. They were, those men, Norsemen who invaded England centuries before the Norman Conquests. Granted, the Romans pretty much started the whole thing, but those old Norsemen did things their own way. Saturday was left alone. I applaud your use of factual information, rather than scientific speculation, to support your argument. Before you start, stop. I'm not going to argue Christianity with you. Your eternity lies in YOUR hands.
I just wish Mr. Bill Gray would come on here and read all of these mean spirited statements. I only know this, when I read my Bible, I feel better.

And I don't know if I will ever read anything by Mr. Davidmiles, or Mr. Max Kuster again. To say that the Bible is not true. Well, I would not want to be in there shoes when Jesus comes back to take the faithful home!
quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.

Hi Max,

It seems I owe Deep an apology. Your statement above sounds more like David that Deep. And, may God protect us from having a David clone or dual personality on the Forum. Other than David, no one else has made such self-promoting announcements of his great intelligence.

But, since you declared the Bible to have errors -- and you cannot give me specifics; I will just assume you have realized that you are wrong.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi all,

In this discussion "Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?" -- Tomme has stated, "Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!"

And, Firenze has replied, "If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?"

There is a simple answer. In the Old Testament, the Jews sacrificed animals under the Law to attain temporary atonement; but, had to continue their sacrifices since no one could be saved under the Law (Romans 3:20). The Law was given to make them aware of their sin, to make them aware of their need for a Kinsman Redeemer, their Messiah (Galatians 3:24).

Jesus Christ came to be the "once for all" sacrifice. His death on the cross took the "sin debt" for all people and marked it "Paid In Full!" In other words, His death was the full payment for our pardon. We had been convicted and condemned to death. He took our place and paid that debt in full. All we -- you, me, Deep, David, Skeptik, and all people -- have to do is to accept and receive this Full Pardon which He purchased with His blood on the cross.

Can you imagine anyone on death row, in any prison in the world, being offered a full pardon -- and refusing it? Yet, that is exactly what folks do when they refuse to receive the free gift, the full pardon, "paid in full" by Jesus Christ on the cross.

That sacrifice of Jesus Christ was the last sacrifice needed -- under the Law and in today's church.

Why do we worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, in most churches today -- rather than on the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday?

The Sabbath was established when God created the heavens and the earth in six day, and on the seventh day, He rested (Genesis 2:2). Did God really get tired from all that creation work and need to rest? No. He was setting a pattern that we finite humans should follow -- work six days and take a day of rest. This was to protect our health. He set the same standard for domestic animals. And, for the fields which provide food, they are to be planted six years and then allowed to lay for one year. The Sabbath is the rest needed by all created beings and life.

The word Sabbath is from the Hebrew word "shabbath" which comes from the Hebrew root word, "shabath" which according to Strong's Concordance means, "to cease, desist, rest."

So, the Sabbath in the Old Testament was to be a day of rest -- not necessarily a day of worship.

And, in Mark 2:27-28, Jesus confirmed this when He said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

In other words, the Sabbath day, the Rest day, was made for man to rest and to recover his strength -- not made to enslave man to a "one day a week" worship. Truthfully, we should be worshipping God seven days a week; but, we meet for fellowship and corporate worship one day a week.

Mark 16:9, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."

In Acts 20:7 we read of the early church, "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them,. . ." In other words, on the first day of the week, Sunday, they gathered for fellowship, breaking bread -- and Paul taught them -- corporate worship.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath; yet, He chose to rise, to be resurrected, on the first day of the week, Sunday. His resurrections is the cornerstone of Christianity. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, the Gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day when He appeared to over 500 believers. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The anchor of that Gospel is that He Rose, He was Resurrected.

In 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 we are told, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." In other words, if Christ was not resurrected -- there is no risen Savior, He would still be in the grave -- and all the teachings of Christianity would be empty words. Why do you think the atheists try so hard to invalidate the Bible? If the Bible is not the true Word of God; then what we are told in the Bible of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not true. And, if the resurrection is not true -- there is no Christianity, there is no salvation, there is no eternal hope.

However, praise the Lord! The resurrection is true! Jesus Christ did rise from the grave; thus assuring that all men will also be resurrected: those who follow Him to eternal salvation; those who deny Him to eternal condemnation. And, Jesus Christ did ascend into heaven in His immortal, glorified body to sit at the right hand of God the Father -- where He is our Advocate, our Mediator, our Intercessor -- interceding with the Father for all believers 24/7/365. Praise God!

And, this is why we Christians place so much emphasis on worshiping Him on the day He was resurrected -- the first day of the week. He blessed it through His resurrection; we honor it in His name.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
I have had arguments with many people on any number of subjects. But I will state unequivocally, the the most vocal and least knowledgeable people with whom I have dealt are fundamentalist Christians.

At least Bill Gray will reply with somewhat thoughtful, if overly pious, answers. However, Mr Tomme73, you do not know the facts of your own Bible.

Mt suggestion to you, is find another forum of like minds. Nobody here will ascribe any credibility to your comments because of the incomprehensible nonsense you spout. I am quite finished with you.

Hi Tomme,

Let me assure you that most folks on the Forum, if given a choice, would vote to see Max leave the forum.

Just ignore this new reincarnation of our existing self-proclaimed great mind. For, beyond his insults and insinuations -- he is empty hot air.

I, for one, Tomme, welcome you and am happy to see you on the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
But, since you declared the Bible to have errors -- and you cannot give me specifics; I will just assume you have realized that you are wrong.


Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
I just wish Mr. Bill Gray would come on here and read all of these mean spirited statements. I only know this, when I read my Bible, I feel better.

And I don't know if I will ever read anything by Mr. Davidmiles, or Mr. Max Kuster again. To say that the Bible is not true. Well, I would not want to be in there shoes when Jesus comes back to take the faithful home!

Hi Punkin

Don't you see the similarity between the two? Who else has come on the Religion Forum and declared themselves to be the "great mind"?

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck -- it must be a duck.

If it walks like a David, talks like a David -- gee, do you think it could be a David?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Max Kuster:
[

Keep your superiority platitudes to yourself, and do not waste them on me, DeepFat or anyone who chooses to use their mind as an instrument of intellectual gain. I have trounced a lot of pious, religious zealots considerably smarter than you.


MAX so we won't be confused give us some names of notables you have "trounced" we wanna be impressed. Yo dogs and cats don't count. I bet you're blowin smoke up deeps tail. I bet you're just an intellectual wannabe .you just another idiot that can't handle Bro. Bill. you hidin sumpthin.
Bill, the errors in the Bible lie in its origins. As I detailed in a previous post, the book is a Medieval compilation which was completed as a written work over several centuries.

Look, here is what I said. "From about 1200, BCE, the Old Testament was carried on in oral tradition until about the second century, CE when the stories began being committed to writing. That the texts were edited for conformity, is beyond doubt. That the early Catholics compiled these texts is without question. That the Catholic Church throughout the Dark Ages used its power and authority over its minions is without doubt. And the fact that the church preached conformity to the Bible (its book), or spend an eternity burning in a hell fire, is beyond doubt."

The very act of compilation and editing to get the stories straight is where the error lies. The error is in the lack of truth. Of the ancient manuscripts that have survived, there are many inconsistencies. But the canonization process reconciled the differences.

Come now, admit that the Bible was not handed into the hands of the early Catholic Church. Face the truth that the Church itself compiled those chapters it thought relevant, and discarded those it did not. What about the Book of Judas? They didn't like the man, so his story was left out. They didn't realize, that if one believes anything about the characters surrounding Jesus, they would know that Judas was in all actuality Jesus's instrument to move history forward toward the fulfillment of the Law. But they didn't like Judas, and he got booted. (This is, if you believe in the inspiration of the Bible... which I don't.)

Why, Bill? You must know that I say the truth about the origins of the Bible! You simply choose to ignore these facts, pretend they were never written, and go about your days in a state of religious delusion.

I have nothing against you personally. I truly don't. But your non-reasoning rigidity does you a great disservice. If you would simply admit to yourself that your faith is based on how you feel, and stop pitching at the windmills of reason, you and I could get along fine.

All the best, Max.
Hi Max,

Are you a politician or a politician-wannabe? You wrote a long dissertation about the Bible and its supposed errors -- but, you have not shown us a single error.

In other words, my Friend, like a politician, you have talked all around the subject -- but, you have ignored the question.

But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Max,

Are you a politician or a politician-wannabe? You wrote a long dissertation about the Bible and its supposed errors -- but, you have not shown us a single error.

In other words, my Friend, like a politician, you have talked all around the subject -- but, you have ignored the question.

But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, if seems that you are merely scanning my posts, not digesting them. The fact that I posed that the great error in the Bible is the way it was compiled by Man, not God. You act as though I never wrote those words. And that makes my case.

Don't you agree that the written texts were begun in the mid second century,c.e.? Who wrote them? And why?

I do read everything you write. And while I disagree with much, I still read them. I accuse you of having a superiority complex. And when I get non-responses from you such as the ones tonight, it only supports my feelings. You are a smart man. All the jabs and barbs aside, I respect the amount of work you put into your opinions.

Just do me a favor in the future, please. When I write a response to you, please make your argument based on my missive. If you won't, we will not be able to have a dialogue of any value.

I've been ribbed by folks on this forum for my views, that is Agnosticism. It does not equate to Atheism. I profess that I do not understand the nature of the higher power that supposedly rules this plane of existence. And that is fine. I simply would like to have an intellectual argument with people who will read my words as thoughtfully as I read them. Jabs and all!

At least you are an interesting opponent. I enjoy sparring with you, but when you give me a non-response, I count that as a point for Kuster.

There are some on this forum, for whom I have so little intellectual respect that they will never garner a response. That is the greatest insult of them all, you know.

Peace, Max.
quote:
But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.


Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.
Hi Max,

You continue to speak in generalities -- but, you have not given us one single error in the Bible.

By saying, "The error is in the way it was written" tells us nothing. Spell out your error if you can.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Max,

You are beginning to understand why I do not engage Mr. Bill in any discussions anymore.

He is incapable of reason.


In order to have a discussion, both sides must understand the concepts of reason, evidence, and logic.

Both sides must define terms by which they could be proven wrong.

You will not find any such conditions arguing with Mr. Bill. He is incapable of such bravery and intellect.

I say this not to insult Bill, but as a matter of fact. I do not hate Bill, I pity him. His intellectual arrestment is the result of a belief in an ancient dogma that has been discredited in many ways.

I will not ask you to forgive him his reticence. He forgives no one, and deserves no forgiveness.

DF

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