Is The Old Testament Still Valid In The New Testament Churches?

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Originally posted by davidnmiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
But, not a problem. Smarter folks than you have tried to prove the Bible to be in error -- and failed.

Bill, as usual you refuse to comment when you are stymied by sheer brilliance. One of the following is wrong.

Is our planet eternal? "The earth abideth forever," Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Or is it doomed to extinction. "The elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and works that are therein shall be burned up," II Peter 3:10.

Hi David,

Gee, you are calling Max's writings sheer brilliance. Yet, you tell us you are the smartest man in existence -- that no power on earth or in heaven can match you. Are we seeing a wee bit of a schizophrenic pattern here?

I must admit that having a dialogue with both you and Max -- is akin to having a dialogue with the main character in the old Joanne Woodward movie, "The Three Faces of Eve" -- an extremely rare example of split personality disorder. However, I will play your little game for today.

You ask if there is a conflict between:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (nkjv), "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever"

and

2 Peter 3:10 (nkjv), "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

No, none whatsoever.

First, let's look at what we find in Ecclesiastes. It begins with, "The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem" (Ecclesiastes 1:1). Thus we see that it was written by Solomon; and most attribute it to his later years when he had fallen into bad times spiritually. Even though God had given him the greatest wisdom a man could attain -- he went against the teachings of God and accumulated to himself about 1000 concubines, i.e, wives. And these wives were from virtually every known nation; all cultures and beliefs. God had told the Israelites not to intermarry with pagans -- and, yet, their leader, King Solomon does it big time.

At the time of writing Ecclesiastes, he was not doing very well spiritually -- having allowed his many wives to bring the worship of their pagan gods into the land of Israel.

And, at this stage of his live, he laments, "Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity" (Ecclesiastes
1:2).

In the beginning of the book of Ecclesiastes, the writer is lamenting how man turns from God and looks only to his own human desires and needs. In other words, Vanity of vanities, i.e, life without God is like looking into a mirror of life and seeing nothing but one's self. In his fallen, worldly ways -- he is telling is that even though "one generation goes and another comes" -- nothing changes with the man who is only living for his own pleasures and desires. This is a conditions to which our atheist and non-believing Friends should be able to relate. In other words, having an "I" problem -- I want this, I want that, I will do this, I will do that. All "I" -- no God.

But, the writer affirms that, even though he, and man, has fallen -- God's earth will remain forever.

Does 2 Peter 3:10 refute this? No, not at all. God's earth will remain forever. Yet, we do know that it will be refurbished as we are told in Revelation 21. When God brings about the New Heaven and the New Earth -- will He destroy the old earth and start afresh? We cannot say for sure. But, we do know that Jesus Christ tells us, in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Regardless of whether He chooses to put the old world into a smelter, melt it, and use that to create a New Earth -- or whether He will just speak the New Earth into existence, as He did before -- it will still be the world, the earth, continuing to exist, eternally -- only, it will be a world which is totally like the Garden of Eden was in the beginning. "Behold, He is making all things new!" And, the earth and all believers who go into eternity with Him will be there -- and we will be in our new immortal, eternal bodies -- and the New Earth will part of our eternal heavenly existence.

Now, don't you want to be a part of this? Think how much better this will be, rather that eternity with Satan. You, both your personalities, should really think hard about this. Your eternal life is at stake.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Max Kuster:
.

I posed that the great error in the Bible is the way it was compiled by Man,

kuster tell us this error in the way man compiled it.
Are you suggesting we follow the logic that anyway man compiles a book without consulting you, results in great error?
I doubt seriously your credentials as being a threat to the integrity of a childrens fable let-a-lone the Bible.

Let's hear your suggestion as to how it should have been compiled by man. You seem to suggest having been there.
You boys get after that Max Kuster. The power of God's Word is not to be messed with!

Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes? I am asking you this because of that news story on the Today Show this morning. They were talking about this track star that's a morphadite. Is that a mistake?
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Max,

You are beginning to understand why I do not engage Mr. Bill in any discussions anymore.

He is incapable of reason. DF


As a lover of philosophy, the great questions of life are fodder for enlightenment. And I love nothing better that a fine argument! Perhaps soon you and I can discuss the differences between atheism and agnosticism. I am certain it would be lively! However, I doubt that there would be any of the sort of head-in-the-sand rhetoric as is displayed by your so called, 'fundys'.

I am still trying to reach the kernel of intellect that I am sure lies within Bill Gray. But I have to say, that I am about at my wit's end.

To express that the fundamental error in the Bible is in the way it was developed. To boil that notion down to basically one or two paragraphs. Then, when the questioner then pretends that the words were never written is somewhat maddening.

I can certainly see a point in time when I will stop wasting my time on Bill. There are a couple of posters on this forum that I consider to be complete idiots. They will know who they are, by the fact that I will never engage them, no matter what they say about my commentary, or about me personally.

I can see that, noting the differences in our personal style of responses, neither of us suffer fools. And there are quite a few in the fundamentalist Christian community.

Is Bill Gray one of them? His words will speak for themselves. Is he incapable of reason? At the present time, I give Bill the benefit of the doubt. Just as he says about faith, the decision to thoughtfully reason through dissenting concepts is entirely his choice.
Kuster, I think I can save you some time and embarrassment. You and defat combined are not gonna outdo Bill intellectually. He is far above your ramblings. His hobby of fundamentalism; he keeps it well oiled. Your feeble attempts of suddenly appearing here to get in a few jabs at him is old hat and in the end he will wear you out with his command. Try knitting. Dummy.
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Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes?


It would be easier to answer the question, "Does God ever get it right." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

He has been known to admit that he makes mistakes:

The Lord said, "I am the Lord, I change not." However, he is not above seeing the folly of his ways and changing ("And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people," Exodus 32:14). Let us hope he repents for the harm he has caused humankind today with his cruel and irrational edicts.
quote:
." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

...and david what do you purpose to do about it?
Jut for drill lets say you are right. He's screwed up. What you gonna do Godbuster? Nothing.
Jus bump yo gums. Get a shovel and plant some trees or sumpyhin. yo iz occupyn space for no rezon.
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
." Basically, he screws up everything he touches. Take a close look at planet earth.

...and david what do you purpose to do about it?
Jut for drill lets say you are right. He's screwed up. What you gonna do Godbuster? Nothing.
Jus bump yo gums. Get a shovel and plant some trees or sumpyhin. yo iz occupyn space for no rezon.


Just what I am doing--discrediting the God myth.
When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged from the human psyche, humans will then take 100% responsibility for their fate, including the conedition of our planet.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin: Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes? I am asking you this because of that news story on the Today Show this morning. They were talking about this track star that's a hermaphrodite. Is that a mistake?

Hi Punkin,

No, God does not make mistakes. I can promise you that "Oops!" is not in God's vocabulary.

From the Theopeida web site: http://www.theopedia.com/Omnisapience_of_God

The wisdom of God is sometimes referred to as his omnisapience, just as omniscience means all-knowing, omnisapience means all-wise, etc. By his omniscience, God perfectly knows all possibilities and what would happen if they came to pass. By his omnisapience, his wisdom is perfect so that he knows which course of action is the best (Isaiah 55:8-9; Romans
11:33; Ephesians 1:11-12; 3:10). The wisdom of God is the practical side of God's knowledge, applying knowledge to achieve His desires in ways that will glorify Him the most.


From the book "Bible Doctrine" (page 5), by Dr. Wayne Grudem, we read:

c. The importance of God's unchangeableness. If we stop for a moment to imagine what it would be like if God could change, the importance of this doctrine becomes more clear. For example, if God could change (in His being, perfection, purposes, or promises), then any change would be either for the better or for the worse. But if God changed for the better, then He was not the best possible being when we first trusted Him. And how could we be sure that He is the best possible being now? But if God could change for the worse (in His being), then what kind of God might He become?. . . How could we ever trust such a God who could change?

If God is not unchanging, then the whole basis of our faith begins to fall apart, and our understanding of the universe begins to unravel. This is because our faith and hope and knowledge of all ultimately depend upon a Person who in infinitely worthy of trust -- because He is absolutely and eternally unchanging in His being, perfection, purposes, and promises.


No, Punkin, God does not make mistakes. However, He gave free will to man, Adam and Eve, and they, through the exercise of that free will, chose to disobey God. That disobedience brought death into the creation -- physical and spiritual. And, that disobedience brought decay, an attribute of dying, into the creation. This is why, although Adam and Eve were created in the image of God to be immortal beings; that was changed with their disobedience. We read in Genesis 3:17-19 the curse God put upon Adam and his descendants -- the curse of physical and spiritual death.

Yet, at the same time, He gave man a way to regain both his spiritual life and to once again regain immortal life -- through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God allowed man to fall away of his own volition -- but, God gave him a way home, a way to come back into the arms of their loving, patient God. That Way is Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

At the time of Adam and Eve, the human gene pool was perfect. Yet, over many generations, it deteriorated and imperfections worked their way into that gene pool. We see birth defects such as hermaphroditism, Down's Syndrome, and many others -- not because God has made mistakes -- but, because man, from the day he is born is deteriorating and dying. And, so is his gene pool which causes such birth defects.

But, praise God, He gave us the Way (John 14:6) to overcome these defects and all deficiencies man has brought upon himself through sin, i.e., disobedience -- and to have perfect, immortal, eternal bodies with Him in heaven. Of course, to attain this, one must surrender himself and follow Jesus Christ in this life. If a person is too pig headed, to much into himself, that he will not submit to Jesus Christ in this life -- then, like man condemned himself to physical and spiritual death through disobedience -- this person is condemning himself to eternal life in hell with Satan.

As I said, Punkin, the word "Oops!" is not in God's vocabulary.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by davidnmiles: Just what I am doing -- discrediting the God myth. When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged (sic) from the human psyche, humans will then take 100% responsibility for their fate, including the conedition (sic) of our planet.

Hi David,

That will truly happen one day. When the Rapture occurs, all Christian believers will be taken out of this world, and all Christian influence will be taken from this world. All that will be left will be non-believers running the world -- under the direction of their boss, the Antichrist -- who will be taking orders from his boss, Satan.

This will be your "perfect" Godless world. But, I can assure you that you WILL NOT enjoy it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
When the belief in a God who is in charge of our lives is exponged from the human psyche,


somehow you appear as someone that really thinks that’s gonna happen. It seems obvious those who have encouraged subsistence on your part regarding your future have succeeded. Your approach advocates non-civility and gives quarter to jack-brained primitivist's like MAX KUSTER.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Maybe, Mr. Bill, was giving man free will a mistake? Why didn't God just make us to always do the right things?


“Free will” is a key to Christian apologia. The question, “Why does an omnipotent, omniscient, all-merciful deity allow human suffering,“ is perplexing and embarrassing to the God-fearing. The logical answer is that a rational and loving god would not allow human and animal suffering.

Hence, apologists concocted the notion of “free will.” God loves us so much that he allows us to do what we want, and when we do bad things it is because of God’s loving gift of free will. This is an inane justification for God’s failings.

In the first place millions of children die of malnutrition, not because of their own action or inaction, but because of the lack of care from adults. Are we really to believe that God loved the Nazis so much that he gave them the free will to slaughter 6 million Jews. Then there is the issue of animal suffering. Were they endowed with “free will?”

This excuse for God’s ineptness is as ridiculous as saying, “I love my child so much that I gave him the freedom to run out in the traffic and get hit by a car.” But then there is nothing sensible about the God myth.

Then there is always the possibility that God derives great delight from watching humans and animals torture, mame and kill each other.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
You boys get after that Max Kuster. The power of God's Word is not to be messed with!

Can I ask a question here? Does God ever make mistakes? I am asking you this because of that news story on the Today Show this morning. They were talking about this track star that's a morphadite. Is that a mistake?


My understanding is the track star in question is intersexed. She does not display external male genitalia. There are pseudo-hermaphrodites and real hermaphrodites. Castor is neither. At one time the condition was called congenital absence of vagina. Now we know the genitalia is male, but is hidden within the body.

BTW, there is much internet gossip that Lady Gaga is a pseuo-hermaphrodite. It's probably not hurting her career any...
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Originally posted by Tomme73:
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Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
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Originally posted by Tomme73:
Why wouldn't It be? Every page is filled with Jesus Christ. You can't discard ANY of It. Jesus is Its grandest subject, our good is designed, and the Glory of God is Its end. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is ALIVE! It cuts like a sword through the darkness, with a message of Life to the hopeless and afraid, breathing Life into all who believe!


If it's valid today, why are we not offering animal sacrifice and worshiping on the sabbath (yes, I know Seventh Day Adventist do)?


Jesus took care of the animal sacrifices. "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy." The days of the week were named by men. The order of those days' names was decided by men. Whether you (not "you" as in Firenze) choose to worship on Saturday or Sunday, who cares? The point is to "remember." If the names of the days had been important, the Bible would have read, "So the evening and the morning were the first day, called Sunday." Some might argue "that's why Sunday is called Sunday, because God made light on the first day." Why wouldn't Sunday be the fourth day of the week, though? That's when God made the sun. He also made the moon on that day, so why do we have a Monday? Because men named the days of the week. Most Christians have adopted Sunday as their Sabbath and have, for the most part, kept Sunday holy.


I worship on Sunday (the first day of the week) because First Century Christians were commanded to do so. My point is the Old Testament was fulfilled with Christ's death and is no longer valid. It is historically interesting and foreshadows the coming of Christ.
Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he belived if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know that he started talking all this rapture stuff, and quoting people who wrote books, and all that, and, now that I think about it, he never really answered the question.

I believe in what you do. And, I do not want to offend Mr. Bill, because he has been very patient with me, but I just wish that he would answer my question with a simple yes or no. I don't think he does. I just don't.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Maybe, Mr. Bill, was giving man free will a mistake? Why didn't God just make us to always do the right things?

Hi Punkin,

For the sake of the discussion, I will assume you are married and have children. Do you want you husband to love you from his own desire -- or do you want him to be forced to love you?

If you husband is forced to love you; is that really love -- or robotics?

The same for your children. Do you want them to love you because you are mom, you are lovable, and they adore you. Or would you like them to be programmed robots who have no choice but to love and obey you?

The same applies to God. He created us to have fellowship with Him. He wants us to, of our own free will, love, honor, and obey Him.

Yes, He could have created us and forced us to love Him -- but, how would we be different from robots? How does one measure a love which is forced? How does one measure a love which is done from one's own free will.

This is why God gave us free will. And, the down side is that, under that free will, we may choose to disobey or deny Him.

The upside is that when we love God, there is no greater love that exists.

Personally, I like His "free will" plan.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I thought the Angles, Saxons and Jutes mostly named our days of the week, taking many of the Roman names and substituting the Germanic for them. So Frigga for Venus, Jupiter becoming Thor, etc. Saturn got to stay, evidently the Germans did not know him. Hence we have dimanche, lundi, mardi, vendredi, etc. in French from the Latin, becoming Sunday (Lord's Day in French), Lundi or Moonday becoming Monday, Mars' Day becoming Mardi and then Tuesday or Tiu's Day, and so on.

Sounds so suspicious that it passes the sniff test for me. Occam's Razor and all that, old bean.
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Originally posted by Punkin: Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he believed if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost. Do you know that he started talking all this rapture stuff, and quoting people who wrote books, and all that, and, now that I think about it, he never really answered the question.

I believe in what you do. And, I do not want to offend Mr. Bill, because he has been very patient with me, but I just wish that he would answer my question with a simple yes or no. I don't think he does. I just don't.

Hi Punkin,

First, let's make a clarification. Christ's church, the body of believers, began on the Day of Pentecost; but, Christ's Kingdom did not begin then. In Matthew 4:17 we read, "From that time Jesus began to preach and say, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" Jesus is telling them that the kingdom of heaven, in the form of their Messiah, is at hand -- but, the Jews rejected Him. So, although the kingdom of heaven was at hand -- this world was and still is, the kingdom of Satan -- the title deed given to him by Adam. If you doubt this, count the number of Christians in the world -- compared to the number of people in the world religions and the number of non-believers.

So, it was the Church, with Christ as its head, which was begun on the Day of Pentecost. At the end of the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the raptured church, His bride, and the Old Testament saints, to establish His Millennial Kingdom. Then, the Kingdom of Jesus Christ will be on the earth, where He will sit on the throne of David in the holy city of Jerusalem. And, this kingdom of peace will last for one thousand years. Then, we will go into eternity with Him.

Punkin, if you will recall, in the initial post which began this discussion, I opened with:

In another Religion Forum discussion I began, "Can We Truly Understand End Times Prophecies?" -- my Friend, Punkin, has posed comments and questions on several really important issues: (1) the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, and (2) and what defines a "Holiness" church? For more clarity, I have chosen to post my response to these as two separate new discussions.

And, I did indeed answer your question about the validity of the Old Testament. The answer I still owe you -- and have not posted yet -- is the question about the Holiness church.

Regarding the validity of the Old Testament in the New Testament church, I wrote:

The Old Testament saints waited in Hades until Jesus Christ, their Messiah, came to personally take them into heaven -- after He died on the cross to pay "in full" the sin debt for all mankind. (Ephesians 4:8).

Today, Christian believers are taken into heaven upon their earthly death. For the Christian believer, when he breathes his last breath on earth -- his next breath will be in heaven, in the presence of Jesus Christ.

So, no, Punkin, we cannot discard the Old Testament. Yet, the question which all of our atheist Friends will surely raise is, "In the Old Testament, the penalty for homosexuality, fornication, and many other sins was death. Should those people be killed today because of those sins? If the Old Testament is still valid; why not the penalties given there?"

Yes, the Old Testament penalty of death for our sins is still valid. However, praise God, Jesus Christ "paid in full" that physical death sentence we all deserve. Now, we can attain life, spiritual and eternal life, through faith in Him.

Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay for all our sins. In the Old Testament, the penalty for sin was death, physical death. Jesus Christ paid our physical death penalty debt in full. Today, we read in the New Testament, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23 nasb). The wages of sin today is still death: physical and spiritual death. But, Jesus Christ paid your physical death penalty. To have your spiritual death penalty overturned; all you have to do is, by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) -- sincerely invite Jesus Christ to come into your heart and into your life and be your personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). If you do this, you WILL have eternal life with God.

So, Punkin, is the Old Testament valid today? One of the strongest proofs that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God is prophecy. Of the over 1800 prophecies in the Bible, by far the largest portion of them is found in the Old Testament. Prophecies of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, begin in Genesis and run throughout the Old Testament all the way to Malachi -- over 300 prophecies of the Messiah. Then we have all the End Time prophecies. If we discard the Old Testament and teach only from the New Testament; we must throw away the richness of God's prophecies to us. If we discard the Old Testament, we must throw away all the great stories of history, all the beautiful poetry and songs found in Psalms, all the wisdom found in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Can you imagine discarding all these treasures?

Punkin, praise God, He gave us the entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament as His full revelation to man. We believe that it is the Written Word of God; is a supernaturally given revelation from God Himself; and reveals to all believers the nature, character, will, and purposes of God; that it is the complete revelation of His will for the salvation of mankind, and is the final authority for all matters pertaining to our Christian lives.

Would you really want to discard ANY of this amazing book?


Punkin, does this answer your question about the validity of the Old Testament in our church today? If not, let's discuss if further.

Yes, Jesus Christ came to bring us a New Covenant; but, He did it by fulfilling the Law and the prophets. The Law could not save anyone. It was intended to shine the light upon the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. No, we cannot discard the Old Testaments; the Ten Commandments is just as valid today as it was then. God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the Law; then man, the Pharisees and Sadducees, began to add their own additions and rules to God's Law -- until they had it totally burdened with man-made laws.

We have seen the same with our Constitution. The founding fathers gave us a clean Constitution and added the Bill of Rights, ten amendments -- still clean and workable. But, the Constitutional laws we have today are so burdened by all the Supreme Court (our Pharisees) rulings that it is hard to find the original ideas. But, we do not discard the Constitution; nor should we discard the Old Testament.

Jesus came to bring a New Covenant, not to discard the Old Testament teachings. He came to shake off all the dead branches of law which the Pharisees had crammed into the Law. An example is Mark 2:27-28, "Jesus said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath'"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by alwilliams767:
Oh, and bye the way, I appoligize for my comment in poor taste this AM. Was having a bad day and took it out on you.

Still disagree with you on the tribulation though!

Hi Al,

Not a problem; apology accepted. Al, while you and I do not agree on theology; I do want us to be Friends. I will continue to refute any New Age theology you present; as you may refute some of what I present -- but, let's still be Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Thank you, Mr. Bill. I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I will say that I disagree with you about the Kingdom. And I also disagree with you on the Old Testament prophecies. However, it is late and I must retire. I will try to continue this talk with you this weekend.

Have a nice evening.
Bill, if all 10 of the commandments were valid today, we'd be worshiping on Saturday. I don't. You don't unless you've just converted to 7th day adventist. Nine commandments are repeated in the NT, one isn't: remember the sabbath.

If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true.
quote:
Originally posted by Punkin:
Thank you, Mr. Bill. I appreciate your thoughtful answer. I will say that I disagree with you about the Kingdom. And I also disagree with you on the Old Testament prophecies. However, it is late and I must retire. I will try to continue this talk with you this weekend.

Have a nice evening.

Hi Punkin,

It is okay to disagree with me; that makes for good discussions. However, when you tell me that you disagree -- but, do not tell me why; you leave the discussion hanging.

Why do you disagree on the Kingdom answer I gave? And, what about the prophecies do you not believe?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Just a little info:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Sabbath as day
For more details on this topic, see Biblical Sabbath.

The term "Sabbath" derives from the Hebrew shabbat (שבת), "to cease", which was first used in the Biblical account of the seventh day of Creation (Genesis 2:2-3). Observation and remembrance of Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments (the fourth in the original Jewish, the Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant traditions, the third in Roman Catholic and Lutheran traditions). Most people who observe Biblical Sabbath regard it as having been instituted as a "perpetual covenant [for] the people of Israel" (Exodus 31:13-17), a sign in respect for the day during which God rested after having completed the Creation in seven days (Exodus 20:8-11); Sabbath desecration was originally officially punishable by death (Exodus 31:15).

[edit] Sabbath as week
For more details on this topic, see Seven-day week.

By synecdoche (naming a part for the whole), the term "Sabbath" also came to mean simply a "se'nnight" or seven-day week in Jewish sources by the time of the Septuagint, namely, the interval between two Sabbaths. Jesus's parable of the Pharisee and the Publican describes the Pharisee as fasting "twice a week" (Greek dis tou sabbatou, literally, "twice of the Sabbath").

In Christianity, both those who observe the seventh day as Sabbath and those who observe the first day as Sabbath consider themselves "Sabbatarian" and regard Sabbath as "Lord's Day", each group believing its position to be taught by the Bible; similarly for others who hold to strong Sabbath principles.

[edit] First-day Sabbath
For more details on this topic, see Sabbath in Christianity.

In most Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, some Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant), "Sabbath" is a synonym of "Lord's Day" (Sunday), which is kept in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ, and often celebrated with the Eucharist. It is often the day of rest, and usually the day of communal worship. The Lord's Day is considered both the first day and the "eighth day" of the seven-day week (or, in some calendars, Sunday is designated the seventh day of the week as also in the ISO 8601 standard). Relatively few Christians regard first-day observance as entailing all of the ordinances of Shabbat. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) faith [[1]] generally follow the stronger of Christian Sabbatarian traditions, avoiding shopping, leisure activities, and idleness on the first day, and avoiding work unless absolutely necessary; in Tonga, all commerce and entertainment activities cease from midnight Saturday until midnight Sunday, and the Constitution declares Sabbath to be sacred forever. Sometimes the Lord's Day is observed by those who believe Sabbath corresponds to Saturday but is obsolete. In Oriental Orthodoxy, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church has observed both Sunday Lord's Day and Saturday Sabbath in different ways for several centuries, as have other Eastern Orthodox traditions. As another minority view, some modern Christians uphold Sabbath but do not limit its observance to either Saturday or Sunday, instead advocating rest on any chosen day of the week, or advocating Sabbath as instead a symbolic metaphor for rest in Christ.

[edit] Seventh-day Sabbath
For more details on this topic, see Sabbath in seventh-day churches.

Several Christian denominations observe Sabbath in similar manner as in Judaism, but observance ends at Saturday sunset instead of Saturday nightfall. Seventh Day Baptists have observed Sabbath on Saturday since the mid-17th century, and influenced the similar but larger Seventh-day Adventist group toward that doctrine in the mid-19th century. They and others believe that keeping seventh-day Sabbath is a moral obligation arising out of the Ten Commandments that honors God as Creator and Deliverer. They also use "Lord's Day" to mean the seventh day, based on Scriptures in which God calls it "my day" and "of the LORD". Adventists popularized the question of defining Sabbath worldwide on a round earth; some seventh-day Sabbatarians make use of the International Date Line, while others (such as some Alaskan Adventists) observe Sabbath according to Jerusalem time. Many of the Lemba in southern Africa, like some other African tribes, are Christians yet claim common descent from the Biblical Israelites, keep one day a week holy like Shabbat, and maintain many beliefs and practices associated with Judaism.
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Originally posted by Trutooit-II: Bill, if all 10 of the commandments were valid today, we'd be worshiping on Saturday. I don't. You don't unless you've just converted to 7th day adventist. Nine commandments are repeated in the NT, one isn't: remember the sabbath.

If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true.

Hi Tru,

In an earlier post within this discussion, I did answer that question. It was on page 2 of this discussion. This is what I wrote earlier:

Why do we worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, in most churches today -- rather than on the Jewish Sabbath, Saturday?

The Sabbath was established when God created the heavens and the earth in six day, and on the seventh day, He rested (Genesis 2:2). Did God really get tired from all that creation work and need to rest? No. He was setting a pattern that we finite humans should follow -- work six days and take a day of rest. This was to protect our health. He set the same standard for domestic animals. And, for the fields which provide food, they are to be planted six years and then allowed to lay for one year. The Sabbath is the rest needed by all created beings and life.

The word Sabbath is from the Hebrew word "shabbath" which comes from the Hebrew root word, "shabath" which according to Strong's Concordance means, "to cease, desist, rest."

So, the Sabbath in the Old Testament was to be a day of rest -- not necessarily a day of worship.

And, in Mark 2:27-28, Jesus confirmed this when He said to the Pharisees, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

In other words, the Sabbath day, the Rest day, was made for man to rest and to recover his strength -- not made to enslave man to a "one day a week" worship. Truthfully, we should be worshipping God seven days a week; but, we meet for fellowship and corporate worship one day a week.

Mark 16:9, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons."

In Acts 20:7 we read of the early church, "On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them,. . ." In other words, on the first day of the week, Sunday, they gathered for fellowship, breaking bread -- and Paul taught them -- corporate worship.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath; yet, He chose to rise, to be resurrected, on the first day of the week, Sunday. His resurrections is the cornerstone of Christianity. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, the Gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day when He appeared to over 500 believers. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The anchor of that Gospel is that He Rose, He was Resurrected.

In 1 Corinthians 15:13-14 we are told, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." In other words, if Christ was not resurrected -- there is no risen Savior, He would still be in the grave -- and all the teachings of Christianity would be empty words. Why do you think the atheists try so hard to invalidate the Bible? If the Bible is not the true Word of God; then what we are told in the Bible of the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not true. And, if the resurrection is not true -- there is no Christianity, there is no salvation, there is no eternal hope.

However, praise the Lord! The resurrection is true! Jesus Christ did rise from the grave; thus assuring that all men will also be resurrected: those who follow Him to eternal salvation; those who deny Him to eternal condemnation. And, Jesus Christ did ascend into heaven in His immortal, glorified body to sit at the right hand of God the Father -- where He is our Advocate, our Mediator, our Intercessor -- interceding with the Father for all believers 24/7/365. Praise God!

And, this is why we Christians place so much emphasis on worshiping Him on the day He was resurrected -- the first day of the week. He blessed it through His resurrection; we honor it in His name.

Then, you told me, "If some civilization who had never heard of the Bible found a NT, they could read it and be saved without ever reading the OT. You know that's true."

Yes, that is very true. I read the story of a man, I believe it was in China, who, as he was walking along the road, found only one page from the book of John. He picked it up and read it as he continued his walk home. That one page changed his life; for the Holy Spirit was able to work in him, bringing him to salvation in Jesus Christ. This man was able to bring his family to faith in Jesus Christ; then he began with his village. He went on to become a very successful evangelist to other villages. We should never try to limit our God and what He can do with the smallest of things.

Yet, once that person has become a Christian believer -- he needs to mature in his knowledge of God's Word. This requires a study of the full Bible.

Billy Graham, in his Crusades, and Greg Laurie in his Harvest Crusades, will not call those who come forward at the Crusade converts. They call them "inquirers" -- and try to help them connect with a local church. Billy Graham tells us that, once an inquirer is connected with a local Jesus-centered, Bible-teaching church for several years -- then, he calls them converts.

Of course we know that once a person sincerely prays and invites Jesus Christ to come into his life and into his heart -- that person is saved and is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Yet, most would call that person a "babe in Christ" -- for he does not yet have his spiritual legs under him, in his walk with the Lord. Inviting Him in makes one a believer; prayer and study of God's Word makes one a mature believer. And, that is the goal we all should be striving toward -- to become more mature in His Word.

And, Tru, His Word is the full Bible -- Old Testament and New Testament.

Thank you for your comments.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Mr. Firenze, I asked Mr. Bill Gray this very question. I asked him if he belived if Christ's Kingdom was began on the Day of Pentecost.



Punkin,
Luke 16:16

"The law and the prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of God has been preached and every man presseth into it."

The message of the Kingdom of God began with John's preaching.
Mr. Extra, it seems that Mr. Bill sure doesn't believe that! He thinks that there are going to be TWO Kingdoms. Isn't that what he said? How is it that Mark said that Jesus told him that there were some of the Apostles who wouldn't taste death until they saw the Kingdom come with power. I guess, if we were to believe the Church of Mr. Bill, there must be some real old Apostles still here. Wonder where they are? Smiler
3/4 of the Old Testament is boring laundry lists of alleged events and tribal superstition, taboo, and the most repugnant primitive theology imiginable. Thank God that the Reform Jewish movement swept so much of that baldersdash away! Now let us continue on with our own religion, that of Christ Jesus, born, teacher, prophet, Son of God, Light from Light, Perfect, Crucified and Resurrected and not worry about who we are or are not to stone, whether or not a sex act lands us in the stoning fields or eternal darnation, and certainly not about mixing fibers, plowing with a donkey and an ox or not eating a ham sammich or a dozen oysters or starting a fire after sundown Friday night, eh?

Not that Job isn't a smashing good philosophical novel or some of the Psalms pretty good, and the majesty of the Creation Story can't be beat in Jacobean cadence . . . however, the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.
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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.


Aude…I’m not sold on your claim to be an expert in ancient writings.
Rather than think you are that stupid I’m gonna look at it as something you just blurted out without a reckon. You are not required to believe Homer’s writings were factual.
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Originally posted by Punkin:
Mr. Extra, it seems that Mr. Bill sure doesn't believe that! He thinks that there are going to be TWO Kingdoms. Isn't that what he said? How is it that Mark said that Jesus told him that there were some of the Apostles who wouldn't taste death until they saw the Kingdom come with power. I guess, if we were to believe the Church of Mr. Bill, there must be some real old Apostles still here. Wonder where they are? Smiler

Hi Punkin,

By the time a discussion gets to 5 or 6 pages, it has become inundated with the chit-chat of our non-believing Friends who wish to side-track any serious discussion about Christianity. For that reason, I have answered you and Extra in a new discussion titled "Did The Kingdom Of God Begin With The Teachings Of John The Baptist?"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
3/4 of the Old Testament is boring laundry lists of alleged events and tribal superstition, taboo, and the most repugnant primitive theology imiginable. Thank God that the Reform Jewish movement swept so much of that baldersdash away! Now let us continue on with our own religion, that of Christ Jesus, born, teacher, prophet, Son of God, Light from Light, Perfect, Crucified and Resurrected and not worry about who we are or are not to stone, whether or not a sex act lands us in the stoning fields or eternal darnation, and certainly not about mixing fibers, plowing with a donkey and an ox or not eating a ham sammich or a dozen oysters or starting a fire after sundown Friday night, eh?

Not that Job isn't a smashing good philosophical novel or some of the Psalms pretty good, and the majesty of the Creation Story can't be beat in Jacobean cadence . . . however, the majority of it is just foolish Bronze Age xenophobia, wishful thinking and a creation of a national myth, compounded with poor copy editing on the part of the scribes in Babylon.

Sorry, I prefer the Book of John.

Hi Neal,

So, in your mind, the only valid Bible is the Book of John and your Book of Prayers -- plus your Traditions.

Maybe you should mention this to God -- and He can do a rewrite of all those old books He authored so many years ago.

Just think of it! You may be the new messiah who will bring in a new religion: John-Book of Prayers-Tradition!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Originally posted by CrustyMac:
Neal, Bill just proclaimed you the new Messiah! Congratulations. We'll expect the trirapturwhatever to begin immediately.

Hi Crusty,

If you would venture into a church occasionally, you would discover that there is a huge difference between a "messiah" and the Messiah.

But, I am happy that I could help you begin your education today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Chapter One, Verse One: the Triburapture is cancelled due to being silly. v. 2: Gimme a break! We thought y'all were all smart enough to recognize a metaphor for a metaphor and not science. v. 3: Thou shalt drink tea and coffee for breakfast and not be cruel to animals, especially dogs. v. 4: Blessed are the canids for theirs are the kingdom of God. v. 5: blessed are the malters, brewers, distillers, and vintners, for they shall be seated at the right hand of the dogs alongside the sushi chefs and good bakers. v. 6: Yea, ye triburaturists and word of faithers, cursed be ye until ye get on your knees and publicly repent and stop with the distasteful televisor shows selling products and ugly cat house sets! v. 7: Blessed be the historians, editors, librarians, archivists as are St. Bruce of Asbury Park, St. Neil of the Crazy Horse and St. Bob of The Band. v. 8: Be ye not foolish like the Mormen and refuse to take thy tea and coffee of a morning and throughout the day, for as the prophet saith, "Take a bit of caffeine for thy stomach's sake and that jolt preparing one for a hard day of dog walking and reading."

Written after the spirit of the blessed twin "ines," caff and nico had overcome me with their wonderful morning blessings. We pray ye all take of a hearty Southern breakfast, cigarettes and coffee and tea, as hath the prophets who came before you, Blessed Molly and Ann of Texas.

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