quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:
I'm thinking Bill would put the Episcopalians on the TO path, and the Methodists and Presbyterians on the FROM path. I'm also thinking the Catholics are IN the witchcraft, sorcery box. And they left off Ouija boards, or would that be in with witchcraft, sorcery, and Buddhism?
Wanna talk office supplies?
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac: As for the content of the chart, I have to question it when it shows Freemasonry leading to Marxism. My dad was a Freemason - a Shriner, and a Jester - and I'm positive that he - also an Army Air Corp vet - was not a Marxist, nor did he subscribe to any such leanings. I guess you would call him a Liberal Christian because he was raised a Methodist, and moved to the Presbyterian Church when he married my mother. And while you may think my parents are residing in Hell, I'm going to have to disagree.
[/QUOTE]quote:Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
I forget, didn't Jesus say something about turning the other cheek? I'm trying to remember where in the Bible Jesus cusses someone out. Help me out.
quote:No, I would never say that about your parents; nor have I ever said that Christians who worship in churches which teach the Liberal Theology are not saved. With all of us, salvation is individual, and only we and God know for sure about any one of us. Our Liberal brothers and sisters disagree with we Conservatives about eschatological prophecy. That is not a problem; when it happens they will be pleasantly surprised.
quote:Originally posted by Max Kuster:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
No, I would never say that about your parents; nor have I ever said that Christians who worship in churches which teach the Liberal Theology are not saved. With all of us, salvation is individual, and only we and God know for sure about any one of us. Our Liberal brothers and sisters disagree with we Conservatives about eschatological prophecy. That is not a problem; when it happens they will be pleasantly surprised.
Bill, it sounds to me that you can't be honest when it comes to issues of Heaven and Hell. You sound like every other fundamentalist Baptist and Campbelite I've ever had the displeasure of trying to get them to say out loud, in public, what they truly believe in their hearts. You should grow a pair and tell Crusty what your denomination teaches when there's nobody else around. Tell him! OK, I will tell Crusty for you...
Crusty, Bill Gray is firmly convinced in his heart (and even stakes his own soul on this) that your parents, my parents, my grandparents are at this very moment burning in an unquenchable lake of fire. For, if he didn't. he would just say, "No, Crusty. As far as I'm concerned they are resting in the bosom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Sorry to sound so harsh, but the logic is irrefutable. And all this logic is coming from a man who is a devout (sic) agnostic. One of the great things about my faith (or lack thereof) is that I don't believe in hell. For that matter, I don't believe in the traditional notion of heaven, as readers of some of posts already know.
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
"God told me to skin you alive!" -- Jello Biafra.
I always wondered what would happen if someone brought a goat or a sheep or a couple of turtledoves into church and slaughtered them and flung blood all over the altar, burnt the guts and the fat and then bbq'ed the rest of the meat.
Who would take out the stoning rocks if a kid backtalked dad at Sunday School?
Which ites are we allowed to slay nowadays?
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
I have always been very honest about this. Those who believe will live eternally in heaven with God. Those who do not believe will live eternally in hell with Satan. Very simple, very straightforward: believe and be saved; refuse to believe and condemn yourself to hell. Simple.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
quote:Originally posted by Jankinonya:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
I have always been very honest about this. Those who believe will live eternally in heaven with God. Those who do not believe will live eternally in hell with Satan. Very simple, very straightforward: believe and be saved; refuse to believe and condemn yourself to hell. Simple.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Ok so Alwilliams and Aude both say they believe in god and jesus, why then do you say they are doomed? Which is it. Is it belief alone or works? Do they have to believe in the bible the way you do or can they believe in jesus and not follow your chosen path of worship and still go to heaven?
You are so confusing and contradictory in your post. I am with Max on this. Tell us what you really believe please.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Do Al or Neal display fruit of salvation? Well, Al keeps preaching his New Age religions which is most certainly not Christian. So, if a person stands up and declares, "I am green!" -- are you going to tell him he is red? Al keeps declaring his New Age religion -- so, are you going to tell him he is a Christian? Keep in mind that the New Age religion and Christianity are total opposites.
quote:And, with Neal, I do not question that he is a Christian; but, his hatred of all who do not worship in his liturgical churches lead me to believe he has a lot of confessing to do.
quote:
Do people such as Neal who refuses to view God's Word as inspired, inerrant, and literal -- who choose to replace the Bible's authority with their own books of tradition and prayer -- loose their salvation, if they had it? No. The only difference is that these folks do not have the peace of mind of knowing they have eternal security in Jesus Christ.
Al is another story. He prefers to replace the Bible with his New Age Urantia Book bible -- and to replace Jesus Christ with his New Age Jesus. Personally, I would not want to have to stand before Jesus Christ at judgment and explain this belief.
quote:So, Jan, I pray that I have cleared up some of your confusion. Although, I am sure you will come back still saying that I am doing double-speak. No, no double-speak. Those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will spend eternity in heaven with God. Those who do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ will spend eternity in hell with Satan. How can I be more clear than that?
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
There are some posters here who when reading a copy of the Sermon on the Mount would take exception to it and try to badmouth the author.
So I was honest and said that I dislike most of the Old Testament for various reasons. At least I didn't make up a religion and claim to follow it even the parts I find morally objectionable.
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
"God told me to skin you alive!" -- Jello Biafra.
I always wondered what would happen if someone brought a goat or a sheep or a couple of turtledoves into church and slaughtered them and flung blood all over the altar, burnt the guts and the fat and then bbq'ed the rest of the meat.
quote:I said I prefer the Gospel of John out of all the books of the Bible, and that is true. I do. I do not lie about that. I stated it as fact.
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:quote:I said I prefer the Gospel of John out of all the books of the Bible, and that is true. I do. I do not lie about that. I stated it as fact.
Neal, this is the most bizarre thing I think you have ever written. I would have thought John would be your least favorite of the Gospels.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Max, my Friend, your ego is showing.
Bill
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac: Bill, I have no doubt that John is your favorite Gospel.
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
I think that is why I dislike the Old Testament so much: so ad hoc and bloody physical and so tribal.
quote:Originally posted by Max Kuster:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Max, my Friend, your ego is showing. Bill
Bill inserted this photo: (of the super ego gold fish)
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac: Bill, I have no doubt that John is your favorite Gospel.
Hi Crusty,
Given your record of being anti-Christian and anti-Bible; I have to ask the logic behind your statement.
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:quote:Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
I forget, didn't Jesus say something about turning the other cheek? I'm trying to remember where in the Bible Jesus cusses someone out. Help me out.
Matthew 12:34 - "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks."
Sounds like it was said just for you, there, viper boy.
quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac:quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by CrustyMac: Bill, I have no doubt that John is your favorite Gospel.
Hi Crusty,
Given your record of being anti-Christian and anti-Bible; I have to ask the logic behind your statement.
Do you really want an answer from me, or was that "question" just a springboard from which to launch your sermon?
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
This is, indeed, the most complicated thing I have ever read:
The Holy Communion
The Celebrant may begin the Offertory with one of the sentences on pages 343-344, or with some other sentence of Scripture.
During the Offertory, a hymn, psalm, or anthem may be sung.
Representatives of the congregation bring the people's offerings of bread and wine, and money or other gifts, to the deacon or celebrant. The people stand while the offerings are presented and placed on the Altar.
The Great Thanksgiving
An alternative form will be found on page 340.
Eucharistic Prayer I
The people remain standing. The Celebrant, whether bishop or priest, faces them and sings or says
The Lord be with you.
People And with thy spirit.
Celebrant Lift up your hearts.
People We lift them up unto the Lord.
Celebrant Let us give thanks unto our Lord God.
People It is meet and right so to do.
Then, facing the Holy Table, the Celebrant proceeds
It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should at all times, and in all places, give thanks unto thee, O Lord, holy Father, almighty, everlasting God.
Page 334
Here a Proper Preface is sung or said on all Sundays, and on other occasions as appointed.
Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with all the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying,
Celebrant and People
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts:
Heaven and earth are full of thy Glory.
Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High.
Here may be added
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.
The people kneel or stand.
Then the Celebrant continues
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.
At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold it, or lay a hand upon it; and at the words concerning the cup, to hold or place a hand upon the cup and any other vessel containing wine to be consecrated
For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his
Page 335
disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this; for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."
Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ, we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension; rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same.
And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.
And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion.
Page 336
And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him.
And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord;
By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end. AMEN.
And now, as our Savior Christ hath taught us, we are bold to say,
People and Celebrant
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.
Page 337
The Breaking of the Bread
The Celebrant breaks the consecrated Bread.
A period of silence is kept.
Then may be sung or said
[Alleluia.] Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;
Therefore let us keep the feast. [Alleluia.]
In Lent, Alleluia is omitted, and may be omitted at other times except during Easter Season.
The following or some other suitable anthem may be sung or said here
O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.
O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.
O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world, grant us thy peace.
The following prayer may be said. The People may join in saying this prayer
We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord whose property is always to have mercy. Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.
Page 338
Facing the people, the Celebrant may say the following Invitation
The Gifts of God for the People of God.
and may add
Take them in remembrance that Christ died for you, and feed on him in your hearts by faith, with thanksgiving.
The ministers receive the Sacrament in both kinds, and then immediately deliver it to the people
The Bread and the Cup are given to the communicants with these words
The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.
The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Drink this in remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee, and be thankful.
or with these words
The Body (Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you in everlasting life. [Amen]
or with these words
The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven. [Amen.]
The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation. [Amen.]
During the ministration of Communion, hymns, psalms, or anthems may be sung.
When necessary, the Celebrant consecrates additional bread and wine, using the form on page 408.
After Communion, the Celebrant says
Let us pray.
The People may join in saying this prayer
Almighty and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee for that thou dost feed us, in these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ; and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs, through hope, of thy everlasting kingdom. And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all such good works as thou hast prepared for us to walk in; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom with thee and the Holy Ghost, be all honor and glory, world without end. Amen.
The Bishop when present, or the Priest, gives the blessing
The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God, and of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord; and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be amongst you, and remain with you always. Amen.
or this
The blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, be upon you and remain with you for ever. Amen.
The Deacon, or the Celebrant, may dismiss the people with these words
Let us go forth in the name of Christ.
People Thanks be to God.
___________________________________________________
Have you ever heard of something so complicated in your entire life? I left out all the hand signals and rotations to the left and right, known frivously as the "Holy Hoky Poky", and the "alleamgne left" and "dos a dos" part to conserve bandwidth and to avoid giving away any deep dark Anglican secrets.
A sight better than a bottle of Grapico and a saltine or two!
p.s. The robes are those of the Church Militant as a Holy Priesthood, as they are the robes of a Roman nobleman. Yet underneath them all are a simple floor length white spotless garment, a symbol of purity and of being decked out for royal priestly rites. They were also used as burial shrouds in times of old and baptismal robes, too.
p.p.s. Nobody ever forced anyone to wear anything to be at or behind the altar. We don't do that. You can come barefooted or in flipflops and a pair of shorts, just come. Our curate held services one Sunday after an emergency at the shipyard where he worked as a shipwright when the rector was at the Cathedral. He wore his work pants, shirt, and work boots with grease stains on them all, then put on a white alb and preached one heck of a sermon, then went back to work to save a ship in the final welds to keep it from sinking in
Sag Harbor.
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yes, I am very serious. I would like to better understand what you said and why. Appreciate your help.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
My point, BeeGee? Why the ultimate point is that you act largely like a giant leakiing rectum when you spout nonsense while picturing yourself with a halo about your gigantic Neo-Pharisee head.
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
They should be proud of me for calling you out when you lie and refuse to so much as say "Gee, you are right, I was mistaken."
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
They should be proud of me for at least attempting to thwart you and your erstwhile hijacking of every thread with your own interpretation of everything under the sun from creation to the meaning of the word "Akbar."
quote:Originally posted by Aude Sapere:
Akbar! What could that mean? I simply cannot see. Is it merely "great" or is it "greatest?"
Wish I read Arabic so I could be up to the latest in Semitic grammar and Eastern Desert philology!
quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:
May I suggest your NEXT posting name? How about BULLDOG -- for you love to go back and dig up long dead bones -- and gnaw on them as though there was any nourishment there.
