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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the Religion Forum discussion I began titled "Tell Me More About The Rapture!" a Christian Friend who appears to be of the Post-Millennial or Amillennial persuasion tells me:

 

Since the Scriptures do not contemplate any of the various Rapture scenarios that Bill describes, it is easy to see how there have come to be so many conflicting versions of that event. 

 

Reviewing my initial post in the "Tell Me More About The Rapture!" discussion, I offered these five views of the Rapture:

 

(1)  Never happen!  The Rapture is only a fantasy, a myth propagated by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. 

 
(2)  Mid-Tribulation Rapture:  Christ will rapture His church; but, not until the middle of the seven year Tribulation.
 
(3)  Pre-Wrath Rapture:  Christ will rapture His church; but, not until three fourths of the way through the seven year Tribulation.
 
(4)  Post-Tribulation Rapture: Christ will Rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation. 
 
(5)  Pre-Tribulation Rapture:   Finally, a Rapture view which makes sense and is Biblical.  Christ will keep His church from the wrath (Rev 3:10, 1 Thess 5:9). 

 

In those five views, to the best of my knowledge, I have offered every possible Rapture scenario.   "(1) Never happen!" seems to cover all the non-believers' views as well as the Post-Millennial and Amillennial views -- that there will be NO Rapture.  Other than that, I have covered the PreTrib, PostTrib, MidTrib, and Pre-Wrath views of the Rapture.

My Friend, if you know of another Rapture view, please share it with us.

In that same post my Friend adds:

 

The most decisive refutation of all of that "Pre-Tribulation" fiction is to be found in John 5:28-29:

John 5:26-29 (nkjv), "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in whichall who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." 

 

So, let's examine the points you seem to be highlighting, but let's expand it a wee bit:

 

John 5:25 (nkjv), "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

 

What does the apostle John mean when he tells us "the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."?

 

He is not speaking, in this verse, of the physically dead but rather of the spiritually dead, of those who are dead in trespasses and sins.  This is true of all men out of Christ, all men who are in Adam by natural generation.  Death passed upon all men when Adam sinned.  As God looks down upon the race today He sees it as a race of men and women dead to Himself and everything spiritual, and alive to what men call pleasure, alive to their own personal affairs, but with not one pulse-beat toward God -- everyone dead and utterly helpless, for, of course, a dead man cannot do anything to change his condition.  He cannot help himself, and if those dead in trespasses and sin are to live, they must receive life through Another, even our Lord Himself.  ("Addresses On The Gospel Of John," by H. A. Ironside, Litt. D, page 200 ff, www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5574), (also, "Ironside's Notes on Selected Books - John 5" - www.studylight.org/commentarie...w.cgi?bk=42&ch=5) 

 

And,

 

If we are in the period of the “hour that is coming” -- then what does He mean that it also “now is”?  Who are the dead who hear His voice now? .  .  .  Does this mean the person that is in the grave hears?  No, no, this is referring to spiritual death!  Death means separation from God.  The hour is coming when those who are in the grave shall hear His voice and shall live, but the hour is now when those who are spiritually dead hear His voice and live.  Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers that they had been dead in trespasses and sins.  That is the spiritual condition of everyone.  But then, “he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death [out of spiritual death] unto life” -- the life that He gives. 

So in verses 25 and 28 He is talking about two separate things.  The time is now when Christ gives spiritual lifeThe hour is coming when He will raise the dead out of the grave.
  ("John – Part 1" - Thru the Bible Radio With Dr. J. Vernon McGee, webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8V9ivgc-UTkJ:ttb.smithsk.com/TTB_John_1_2012.doc+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
     

 

Let's look at the rest of that John 5 Scripture passage:

 

John 5:26-27(nkjv), "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man."

 

What is this Scripture passage telling us?

 

Here the Messianic claims of Jesus stand out most clearly.  He is the Son of Man; he is the life-giver and the life-bringer; he will raise the dead to life and, when they are raised, he win be their judge.  In this passage (John 5:25-29) John seems to use the word dead in two senses.

(i) He uses it of those who are spiritually dead; to them Jesus will bring new life.

(ii) John also uses the word dead literally.  Jesus teaches that the resurrection will come and that what happens to a man in the after-life is inextricably bound up with what he has done in this life.  The awful importance of this life is that it determines eternity.   (The Gospel of John - Volume 1, (Chapters 1 to 7), Revised Edition, page 192 - by William Barclay)

 

Now, we get to the heart of my Forum Friend's disagreement -- his proof text (John 5:28-29) for his "No Rapture" position and his belief that all people, believers and non-believers, will be resurrected together and will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

 

John 5:28-29(nkjv), "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

 

Will there be only one judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment (Post-Millennial and Amillennial views)?  That view places the Second Coming of Jesus Christ after the Millennium (Revelation 20) and just before God creates the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem (Revelation 21) and takes all believers into eternity?  Or, will there be two separate judgments -- one for all believers, and another for all non-believers.

There must be two separate judgments.   Why?   We see the Wedding Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19:6-9 where Christ takes His Bride, the church, to be His eternal Bride.   That Wedding Feast cannot take place if the Bride has not prepared herself -- cleansed and wearing a beautiful fine linen wedding gown.  No bride, especially the Bride of Christ, would be wed in a filthy (Isaiah 64:6) wedding gown.

In this mortal life, because we believers are still sinners, but "forgiven sinners" -- we are still wearing our "unclean, filthy garments of worldly deeds" (Isaiah 64:6).  How do we hide our unrighteousness from the eyes of God?   At the moment of salvation, He covers us with the righteousness of Jesus Christ -- so that when God looks at us, He sees only the righteousness of Christ.  

 

The apostle Paul writes, “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it --the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe (Romans 3:21–22).  Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us.  This is called “imputed” righteousness.  To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone.  When we place our faith in Christ, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account so that we become perfect in His sight. “For our sake He made Him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Not only is Christ’s righteousness imputed to us through faith, but our sin is imputed to Christ.  That is how Christ paid our sin debt to God.  He had no sin in Himself, but our sin is imputed to Him so, as He suffers on the cross, He is suffering the just penalty that our sin deserves.  ("Why Does Christ's Righteousness Need To Be Imputed To Us?" - http://www.gotquestions.org/im...d-righteousness.html

 

So, since we, the Bride of Christ, cannot wed our Bridegroom wearing a filthy wedding gown of unrighteousness -- we must, at some point before the wedding, be given our own wedding gown of righteousness.  We find that in Revelation 19:8, "It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  That can only happen after the church is Raptured from this world (Revelation 4:1) -- and before the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9).   This means that it must happen during the seven year Tribulation which is described in Revelation 6 through 18. 

Therefore, the only Biblically true scenario can be:  (1) the church is Raptured, (2) the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) occurs, (3) the Seven Year Tribulation plays out, (4) the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, (5) Christ returns to earth, His Second Coming, accompanied by His Bride, the Old Testament saints, the Tribulation martyrs, and His army of angels, (6) the Sheep and Goat Judgment occurs, (7) Christ establishes His Millennial Kingdom on the throne of David in Jerusalem where He rules, the perfect theocracy, for 1000 years, (8) then, the Great White Throne Judgment of resurrected non-believers occurs, (9) God creates the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem, and finally (10) Jesus Christ takes all believers, from all ages, into Eternity where we will be in the joyful presence of God forever.   Biblically, there can be no other schedule of events.

In conclusion, ALL people will stand before Jesus Christ in judgment -- but the Believers' Judgment will occur over 1000 years before the Great White Throne Judgment of all non-believers.

So, to my Post-Millennial/Amillennial Christian Forum Friend, if you can show me from Scripture (using the full 66 books, not a few cherry-picked and misinterpreted verses) another view of the Rapture -- I truly would like to discuss it with you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill 

 

Revelation 19-7-8, 14 - Bride in White Linen - White Horse - Border - 2a

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Last edited by Bill Gray
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Hi Willie,

 

Thank you!   And, welcome to the Religion Forum.  It is always good to have a new voice joining us. 

 

I was born in your city and still have many close relatives living there.  And, I spent much of my yong life there -- learning to swim in the old municipal swimming pool.  I also spent many, many hours at the park, did my first attempt at fishing from the old steps.  From the time I was about 3 years old, my aunt and uncle lived only a couple of blocks from the swimming pool and park.

 

Once again, welcome.   You might want to visit my Facebook page also -- under Bill Gray.  I would love to have you as a Friend there.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 Peter 3-15 - Walk In The Park-1

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Last edited by Bill Gray

Yes there are many Rapture (timing) views as well as those who dismiss the rapture all together.  While Billl does allude to the "Pre-Wrath" rapture position he not only seems to greatly simplify  it but worse misrepresents it.  While the Pre-Wrath designation is a relativly contemporary  term so is pre-tribulation which found it's way into discussion, about the Rapture, in the 1800's.  

 

One fact that is glaringly evident, regarding the pre-tribulation rapture, meaning that the church and Christians are raptured out (caught up) before the AntiChrist ever comes on the scene.  That fact is that it is non-scriptural, not backed up from Scripture.  It may be the most prevalent view but it is not what Scripture teaches.  Their verse in Revelation that they point to as being symbolic, not literal, of the rapture is where Christ tells John to "Come up here" in Revelation 4:1 has nothing to do with the actual Rapture which is described in Revelation 7.   

 

Consider this!  IF the greatest event that the New Covenant Church has to look forward to, the Rapture of the Saints of  God is so important and so relevant and to be looked  for then (again from the Pre-Tribulation view) why is there no specific, definite scripture where CHRIST specificallly describes the Rapture and tells about it?  In the Gospels there are three sections ( Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 where Christ disciples specifically ask Him  aboout the end days, what would happen and how to recognize it.  ALL three of these contains Christ answer and NO WHERE in any of these scriptures can you find Christ describing the Rapture in Pre-Tribulation form.   Same as throughout Scriptures.  There are several places where the Rapture is mentioned most clearly in 1st & 2nd Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15:51.  NO WHERE in those scriptures is a pre-tribulation mentioned or described but in every case the Rapture is described so just when will it be?

 

The best description of this is given by Paul in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,   ♫  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.   ♫  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;   ♫  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"  

 

The whole purpose of his second letter to them was to follow his first letter's instructtions as they, the Thessalonians thought that the rapture had  already come and they had somehow missed it.  They were caught up and living in a time of intens persecution and they thought somehow they missed the Rapture so Paul wrote to them to clarify his teachings to them.  The "day" that Paul is speaking of is "The Day of God's Wrath"  The Day of the Lord.  Paul learned it direct from Christ who taught the disciples in response to their direct question.  Christ did tell when the rapture would occur and he did so in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28.  Compare EACH of those scriptures with Pauls description of the Rapture that he gave to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 4:13-18.  

 

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is nothing more than saying that the Rapture, of the saints, the Saved Christians will occur BEFORE God's wrath/judgment falls upon the earth.  This differs greatly from the Pre-Trib position that Bill advocates.  The Pre-Trib position advocates that the Rapture occurs or is symbolic in Revelation 4:1 and that Revelation 6:1-11 describes God's wrath.  Those who advocate the Pre-Wrath position (Rapture BEFORE God's wrath falls in Judgement) say that Revelation 6:1-11 describes Tribulation, Great Tribulation brought on by AntiChrist against those who hold to Chrrist name, Christians, the Saved and the Nation of Israel (Jews).  The coming of the Antichrist is come in Rev 6:1&2 and the events that  follow Christians and the Church will surely endure.  BECAUSE many will feel Christ has abandoned them, not raptured them, they will turn away, a great turning away from Christ.  If you believe in a pre-trib rapture then you will expect to be out of here (raptured) when the Antichrist comes on the scene.  You won't have to worry about taking the antichrist mark on your forehead or hand for you will be gone.  BUT if the Pre-Wrath position is correct, which I advocate it is, then Christians will have to refuse the mark and will find themselves in great persecution and trials and tribulation up until the actual Rapture which is foretold in Revelation, literally, not symbolicaly  in Revelation 7:9-17 right before God's wrath comes/falls upon the world, the 7th Seal and Trumpet judgments.  

 

The Pre-Trib position is not scriptural and Christ did not teach it.  Compare two Bibles side by side, Christ words in Matthew 24 or Mark 13 or Luke 21 to what happens  in Revelation 6.

 

Compare Matthew 24:29-30 with the sixth seal Revelation 6:12-17.

Compare the Rapture that Christ desccribed in Matthew 24:30-31 and Mark 13:26-27 with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

Don't let those who don't know teach or tell you different and wrong but listen to Pauls teaching to the Thessalonians when He (Paul) tells them that they (believers, saved) are NOT in Darkness for they have been taught and told how to RECOGNIZE when the time is close.  Not date setting but recognizing that harvest time is upon them.  

 

"     But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.   ♫  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.   ♫  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.   ♫  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10   ♫  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. "

 

Look at Verse 4 here,  WE, Christians, are NOT in Darkness for Paul told us, Christ taught us how to tell the signs that the harvest (Rapture) is at hand.  It coes BEFORE God's Wrath comes and comes AFTER Antichrist torments and persecutes us.  We are to be ready for such persecution, expect it such that when it comes we will not lose faith and fall away.  We will not do as the Thessalonians did that prompted Paul to write 2nd Thessalonians think that we were "left behind".  

 

Remember all scriptures reinforce and agree with each other, they have to and you will find ONLY ONE Rapture timing position is Biblical and can be shown literally from the Scriptures.   That which teaches that the Rapture of the Saints happens after intense persecution by Antichrist, great tribulation, through which we are to remain faithful and before God's Wrath comes and falls upon mankind.

Last edited by gbrk

One more point regarding Matthew 24:30-31

 

Many pre-tribulation advocates also mistakenly refer to this passage as the 2nd Comning as at Armageddon but a quick comparison of scriptures in Revelation of that time to this passage quickly will rule that out and it can be seen that the two passages are totally different however Matthew 24:30-31 as well as the parallel passages in Mark 13 and Luke 21 totally mirror the Rapture description given by Paul starting in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.  

 

The reason pre-tribulationist try and associate the verses 30-31 incorrectly is that they totally go against the pre-trib view.  IF you adhere to the Pre-trib view then you have to find a way to write away or write off why Christ didn't describe the Rapture in his answer to the Disciples about the end times.

 

Now compare Matthew 24:31 to Armageddon passage of Revelation 19:11-18
which is what Pre-Tribulationist say Matthew 24:31 is related to.
Remember also that Armageddon takes place at the end of the seven year period right before the Millinium somewhere in the 30 & 45 day period after the 7 year period.

Matthew 24 Commpared          to          Revelation 19 (Armageddon and 2nd Coming)
Angels Gather the Elect to        ---           Angels call birds to feast on flesh of Judged
Jesus in the Clouds

Trumpet Sounds                        ----         nope, no trumpets in Rev 19 coming
Evacuation (Rapture)                ----          nope, no catching away or gathering here
Assembling  (Rev 7:9-15)          ----          nope - no assemply in heaven
Sun & Moon Darkened              ----          nope  no signs such as these in Rev 19 2nd coming

The Wrath of God Begins          ----          The Wrath of God is over, and the earthly rule begins
 
A close examination shows that there is No match at all between the two passages (Matt 24:30-31 & Revelation 19)  That's because Matthew 24:30-31 and the same passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21 refer to and is descriptive of the Rapture that Paul described in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

The question that starts everything is Matthew 24:3 concentrate on the word "coming" which is (parousia).

Parousia is only used 24 times where the usual word for coming is used 222 times, when this word is used of Christ it's almost always used for Christ coming in the last days including the Rapture, future visible return from heaven, to raise the dead, hold the last judgement, set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God. There is only one word to describe all of those task. Used to refer to the entirety of the visit. They also know that His coming will be linked to the end fo the time.  Matthew 13:30 and to Matthew 13:39-40.

Compare Matthew 24 signs, warnings, birth pains to Revelation 6-8 keeping in mind the teachings of Paul regarding the Rapture and  what happens then.

Matthew 24  Revelation 6-8
False Christ Mat 24:5 to 1st seal (antichrist) Rev 6:1-2  (2 Thess 2:3-5)
Wars  Mat 24:6 to 2nd seal (red horse, wars) Rev 6:3-4
Famines Mat 24:7 to 3rd seal (famine)  Rev 6:5-6
Killed and hated Mat 24:9 to 4th Seal (death, kill w/sword) Rev 6:7-8
Death Mat 24:22 to 5th Seal (martyrs) Rev 6:9
Sun, Moon, & Stars Mat 24:29 to 6th Seal (sun, moon, stars) Rev 6:12-17  (compare with 1 Thess 5)
The Rapture Mat 24:30-32 to Multitude (Raptured) in heaven Rev 7:9-14  (comparea 1 Thess 4:13-18)
Wrath of God Mat 24:37-39 to 7th Seal (Wrath of God) Rev 8:1-7   
 
What does it matter whether or not you advocate the Pre-Wrath position or accept and teach the pre-trib position?  For one ... one of the two is backed by Scripture (PreWrath) and the other is not (Pre-Trib).  Also IF you have people believing that they will  be raptured out before the antichrist ever comes on the scene and then they find out that they have a figure that fits exactly the antichrist and they  are under such intense persecution then they  will easily feel they missed it, Christ lied to them, they will lose faith and fall away feeling that what they  knew was not true, they become disinchanted.  
 
Also those who know what to look for and expect can prepare themselves to endure and be prepared for what is to come, if indeed they aree in the end times.  Think about the 7 letters to the Churches in Revelation how with every Church the encouragement to overcome ... "To him who overcometh"  Overcome what?   We are told what to expect (Matthew 24:1-29) so that we can recognize the coming time of HIs (God's) wrath and know our salvation, Rapture is at hand.  
 
It is time that God's people, His saints, the Saved that are interested in Bible Study understand that often what they are taught (pre-trib) should be confirmed by scriptures and not just accept what a preacher or teacher says because it's always been that way.  Yes the early Church, right after Christ resurrection, was looking for His coming again and the Thessalonians thought He must have come and left them behind.  Paul's reassurance to them that the Rapture will not come until the Antichrist has been revealed, come on the scene and persecuted us.  READ, Pray and I believe you will  see that Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, 1 Cor 15:51, 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Thess 5:1-11, 2 Thess 2:1-12, Revelation 6 & 7 as well as Daniel 11 & 12 all reinforce and mirror each other to reveal God's plans for the End days whenever that shall come.  
 
Regarding the pre-trib position, if you believe that is correct, then ask yourself why would Christ omit describing the rapture all together from His description to His Disciples in response to their question aboout just what was to happen in the end times?   It's fairly easy to discern when antichrist will come on the scene and yet Christ never indicates a Rapture prior to that time or the events that are connected with the antichrist.  WHY?   The answer is that the pre-trib position is not a scriptural position and incorrect.  Christ DID teach about the Rapture and he described it in Matthew 24:30-31 and other parallel passages in Mark 13 and Luke 21.  And in His description He, Christ, indicates that the Church, the Saved will have to endure persecution and trials and ttribulation at the hands of antichrist so we are to be strong, hold to the faith and endure to the time when the Rapture removes us right before God's wrath is  to come.
Last edited by gbrk

Hi GB,

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the "immanence" of Christ coming for His church.   His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur:

 

Matthew 24:36, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

The only Rapture scenario which fits that criteria is the PreTrib Rapture.  If the Rapture is to happen MidTrib or PreWrath -- then everyone could know the time of the Rapture.   All one would have to do is to watch for the beginning of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27) -- and start watching the calendar and clock from that time.   So, for at least 1/2 or 3/4 of the Tribulation all people would know the time when the Rapture will occur.

 

Yet, Jesus Christ tells us that NO ONE can know the time of the Rapture.  So, who is right -- Jesus Christ OR Marvin Rosenthal with his PreWrath Rapture and all the MidTrib Rapture crowd?

 

I will stand with Jesus Christ on this.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

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Simply put Bill you're wrong!   

    32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33   ♫  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34   ♫  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 
    
Be Ready!
    36   ♫  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 
37   ♫  But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39   ♫  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 

 

Try not to  take scripture and make it fit your own agenda or wishes but stick rather to it's context and what it means.  First it is the Day of the Lord that the statement no one knows when it will come it's not talking about the Rapture so please don't take liberties with scripture to use it incorrectly.  Second Immenance is also unscriptural.  2 Thessalonians 2 plainly states that there has to be certain things happen before the rapture, catching up, happens.

Note from 2nd Thessalonians 2

 

     Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,   ♫  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.   ♫  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;   ♫  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?   ♫  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.   ♫  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11   ♫  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12  That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

 

 

VERSE 3 plainly states that the events mentioned in verse 1, that's the Rapture Bill, WILL NOT HAPPEN, or Can not happen UNTIL the falling away and the antichrist is revealed.  Note verse 2 let no man deceive you,   that includes you Bill, I would rather take Scriptures word rather than yours.  You ought to try that since you are trying to tell others about something that you evidently don't understand yourself.  

 

You might read also Revelation 6 1-11 for that's events and things that happen when Antichrist comes on the scene, something that has to happen before the Rapture (of Rev 7:9-15) and according to scripture it does.  Also compare 2 Thes 2:3 to Matthew 24:4-28 as again Christ reveals what Paul has told us.  Remember the "Falling away"  Christ says in vs 5 "  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" AND again in verse 11 of Matt 24 where Christ says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12   ♫  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."  and also the other part where Antichrist is revealed and comes Christ also teaches that in Matt 24 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) "   This is the antichrist that does this.  You see all this play out through Revelation 6:1-12 as Antichrist comes and is shown in Revelation 6:2 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"    Also the exact thing is spoken of in 2 Thess 2:4.  It isn't a mystery, it's the antichrist.

 

It's not difficult but we, Christians must beware of those that seek to deceive us and frankly Bill you are attempting to do just that by using scripture to be something it isn't or say that it says something it doesn't.  You do this to make the pre-trib rapture appear to be Biblical but the verses and sections I have posted above clearly refute that.  So NO the Pre-Trib is not scriptural and the rapture has to have some things happen before it happens so it's not imminent.  Clearly no one knows the date or time when the Day of the Lord will occur or when the Rapture will happen BUT WE CAN KNOW when it approaches and be watchful.  Remember the parable Christ spoke.

 

 32  Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33   ♫  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34   ♫  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 

 

vs 33 points back to the events Christ described earlier in the chapter.  He isn't date setting either but he is saying you can know when it's near or approaching.  Remember, Bill, what Paul told the Thessalonians?    vs 4 of chapter 5 THEY (Christian Thessalonians, Brothers)  ARE NOT IN DARKNESS that the day should overtake them as a thief in the night .... they know some signs to look for.  Simple scripture so try not to make it mean something it doesn't.   Come out of the darkness into the light.   

 

1 Thessalonians 5:1  "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.   ♫  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.   ♫  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.   ♫  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10   ♫  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by gbrk
quote:  Originally Posted by gbrk:

Simply put, Bill, you're wrong!

GB, my Friend,

 

You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the "immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.

 

Is that really the position you want to support?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

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quote:  Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Curious Bill, DHL™ - what did Jesus say about divorce?  Was he wrong?

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Strange you should have to ask that.  Maybe if you spent more time in church and Bible study -- you would know the answer.

 

Yes, Jesus did teach that the act of divorce is a sin.  And, it does not please God.

 

Why do you ask?   Are YOU contemplating getting a divorce?  

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by gbrk:

Simply put, Bill, you're wrong!

GB, my Friend,

 

You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the "immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

We have a duty to adhere to the Scriptures as they were given and not make them into something they are not and make applications that surely are not there and that is what you are doing.  These Scriptures were given to those in the Early Church (and forward to us) and apply to them as they are written and at that time, that they were given, as even now, there were many things that had to have happened before the return of Christ for His Church.  Israel only became a nation again in 1949 way after these books were written and/or assembled.  The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing that God has chosen for HIs Day of the Lord's Judgment and/or the Rapture. 

 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.   NO BILL I'm saying YOU are wrong.  You are attempting to add meaning that is not there in Scripture so yes I'm saying that you are wrong in doing so and your interpretation of those scriptures is incorrect.

 

Is that really the position you want to support?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

 

NOTE that I will also place my comments in BLUE TEXT below and above within the reply that you made.

 

Consider the following

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 (New International Version)
1  Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4  But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.   (Clearly, Bill, Paul is telling them, the Thessalonians believers, brothers, Christians, that THEY ARE NOT IN DARKNESS that, that day, should surprise them.  They had been taught, of Paul and Christ, differently).

 

Comments from the Bible Reader's Companion on the above are: 

Know well (5:2). The Gk. word akribos means accurate, precise knowledge. Paul made it very clear thatthe time of Christ's return for His church was unknown, but that it would be unexpected. That is, no precise signs would indicate it was about to happen and so warn believers to get ready.

 

Theologians speak of the "imminence" of Jesus' return, simply meaning it could happen at any moment.   (The teaching is simply NOT THERE)


from: Bible Reader's Companion.

 Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, which you seem to ignore, at your own peril, clearly was written to them because they thought they had been left behind and somehow missed the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (New International Version)
1  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,    (That's the Rapture Bill)
2  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.  (They, the Thessalonians thought they had missed it and that it happened yet they are still there)
3  Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  (The teaching IS NOT and CANNOT BE Imminent if things have to happen BEFORE the return of Christ at the Rapture,  Imminence is not taught by Paul OR by Christ)
5  Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?  (Paul here is reminding them of his prior teachings about the Rapture, teachings that appear in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5)

Furthermore you use Matthew 24:36 to attempt to support Imminence or that Christ return for his Church, the Rapture, can occur AT ANY MOMENT without anything happening first.

Matthew 24:36-37 (New International Version)
36  "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 Clearly Christ was teaching that no one knows the hour or day or time but He was NOT saying that the Day of the Lord was Imminent and could happen without anything preceding it.  Christ whole statement and dialog before this in Matthew 24:4-29 was information about things that would precede His coming again and the Day of the Lord.  The cosmic signs in Matthew 24:29, Antichrist and the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15, Christ even said "Matthew 24:25 (New International Version)
 See, I have told you ahead of time. "

 

To attempt to use Christ words about the Day of the Lord, God's chosen time of that event, and apply it to the doctrine of imminence (which is not taught in Scripture) is disingenuous and deceitful and adding meaning to Scripture that is not there.  

 

the sacrilegious object that causes desecration (literally the abomination of desolation; see Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:11):  same event that Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2:3-4 and Matthew 24:15.  

The teaching that the Rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1) can come at any moment without anything happening before it happens is simply not in Scripture nor is any teaching about a pre-tribulation rapture.  Clearly Paul was telling the Thessalonians this very thing for they thought that the Rapture had already occurred (2 Thess 2:2)  Paul wasn't setting dates nor is anyone else but He and we are saying that Christ, Himself, in His teachings told us, as the disciples and apostles did, that we could recognize the times and signs that precede the Day of the Lord coming.  Yes no one knows that very hour or day but that isn't teaching imminence but rather teaching what it says, that no one can know the exact day or time.  

 

Just where do you think Imminence is taught?  by Jesus?  for the wording, of the verse you cite, clearly says NOTHING with regard to what Imminence is.  Imminence is the teaching that nothing has to happen before Christ return for His Church.  Explain Paul's letter in 2Thess 2:1-4 if he (Paul) isn't telling the Thessalonians that they can know that the Rapture hadn't occurred as they thought (vs 2) because certain things (vss 3-4) hadn't taken place.   If there are certain things that have to have happened before the Rapture/Day of the Lord then obviously IT CAN'T be Imminent.  Why persist in saying something that obviously isn't factual and true?   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by gbrk:

Simply put, Bill, you're wrong!

GB, my Friend,

 

You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the "immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

We have a duty to adhere to the Scriptures as they were given and not make them into something they are not and make applications that surely are not there and that is what you are doing.  These Scriptures were given to those in the Early Church (and forward to us) and apply to them as they are written and at that time, that they were given, as even now, there were many things that had to have happened before the return of Christ for His Church.  Israel only became a nation again in 1949 way after these books were written and/or assembled.  The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing that God has chosen for HIs Day of the Lord's Judgment and/or the Rapture. 

 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.   NO BILL I'm saying YOU are wrong.  You are attempting to add meaning that is not there in Scripture so yes I'm saying that you are wrong in doing so and your interpretation of those scriptures is incorrect.

 

Is that really the position you want to support?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH -1

 

NOTE that I will also place my comments in BLUE TEXT below and above within the reply that you made.

 

Consider the following

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 (New International Version)
1  Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2  for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3  While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4  But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.   (Clearly, Bill, Paul is telling them, the Thessalonians believers, brothers, Christians, that THEY ARE NOT IN DARKNESS that, that day, should surprise them.  They had been taught, of Paul and Christ, differently).

 

Comments from the Bible Reader's Companion on the above are: 

Know well (5:2). The Gk. word akribos means accurate, precise knowledge. Paul made it very clear thatthe time of Christ's return for His church was unknown, but that it would be unexpected. That is, no precise signs would indicate it was about to happen and so warn believers to get ready.

 

Theologians speak of the "imminence" of Jesus' return, simply meaning it could happen at any moment.   (The teaching is simply NOT THERE)


from: Bible Reader's Companion.

 Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, which you seem to ignore, at your own peril, clearly was written to them because they thought they had been left behind and somehow missed the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (New International Version)
1  Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,    (That's the Rapture Bill)
2  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.  (They, the Thessalonians thought they had missed it and that it happened yet they are still there)
3  Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  (The teaching IS NOT and CANNOT BE Imminent if things have to happen BEFORE the return of Christ at the Rapture,  Imminence is not taught by Paul OR by Christ)
5  Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?  (Paul here is reminding them of his prior teachings about the Rapture, teachings that appear in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5)

Furthermore you use Matthew 24:36 to attempt to support Imminence or that Christ return for his Church, the Rapture, can occur AT ANY MOMENT without anything happening first.

Matthew 24:36-37 (New International Version)
36  "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
37  As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 Clearly Christ was teaching that no one knows the hour or day or time but He was NOT saying that the Day of the Lord was Imminent and could happen without anything preceding it.  Christ whole statement and dialog before this in Matthew 24:4-29 was information about things that would precede His coming again and the Day of the Lord.  The cosmic signs in Matthew 24:29, Antichrist and the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15, Christ even said "Matthew 24:25 (New International Version)
 See, I have told you ahead of time. "

 

To attempt to use Christ words about the Day of the Lord, God's chosen time of that event, and apply it to the doctrine of imminence (which is not taught in Scripture) is disingenuous and deceitful and adding meaning to Scripture that is not there.  

 

the sacrilegious object that causes desecration (literally the abomination of desolation; see Dan 9:27; 11:31; 12:11):  same event that Paul talks about in 2 Thess 2:3-4 and Matthew 24:15.  

The teaching that the Rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1) can come at any moment without anything happening before it happens is simply not in Scripture nor is any teaching about a pre-tribulation rapture.  Clearly Paul was telling the Thessalonians this very thing for they thought that the Rapture had already occurred (2 Thess 2:2)  Paul wasn't setting dates nor is anyone else but He and we are saying that Christ, Himself, in His teachings told us, as the disciples and apostles did, that we could recognize the times and signs that precede the Day of the Lord coming.  Yes no one knows that very hour or day but that isn't teaching imminence but rather teaching what it says, that no one can know the exact day or time.  

 

Just where do you think Imminence is taught?  by Jesus?  for the wording, of the verse you cite, clearly says NOTHING with regard to what Imminence is.  Imminence is the teaching that nothing has to happen before Christ return for His Church.  Explain Paul's letter in 2Thess 2:1-4 if he (Paul) isn't telling the Thessalonians that they can know that the Rapture hadn't occurred as they thought (vs 2) because certain things (vss 3-4) hadn't taken place.   If there are certain things that have to have happened before the Rapture/Day of the Lord then obviously IT CAN'T be Imminent.  Why persist in saying something that obviously isn't factual and true?   

 

 

 You know gb, people have been wondering for over seventy years why

billiiee can't be truthful.....I haven't wondered about it in a few years now

and just accept the failures of the animal kingdom as they are..........huh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

quote:  Originally Posted by gbrk:
[quote] Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by gbrk:

Simply put, Bill, you're wrong!

GB, my Friend,

 

You say that what I wrote is wrong.  Let's look at it again.  This is what I posted in my earlier post:

 

When speaking of the Rapture -- one can never exclude the "immanence" of Christ coming for His church. His "immanent" coming for His church means that NO ONE can know when the Rapture will occur: 

 

Added by GB:

 

The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing that God has chosen for HIs Day of the Lord's Judgment and/or the Rapture. 

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

So, you are not saying that Bill Gray is wrong -- when you deny those Scriptural teachings of the immanence of the Rapture -- YOU are saying that Jesus Christ is wrong.  

 

Added by GB:

 

NO BILL I'm saying YOU are wrong.  You are attempting to add meaning that is not there in Scripture so yes I'm saying that you are wrong in doing so and your interpretation of those scriptures is incorrect.

GB, my Friend,

 

You tell me:

 

The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing that God has chosen for HIs Day of the Lord's Judgment and/or the Rapture

 

This makes me believe that you do not know the meaning of imminence.   But, first let me clarify one mistake in my writing.  My spell checker picked up "imminence" and converted it to "immanence."  The two words have totally different Biblical meanings.

 

Now, to define "imminence":

 

Perhaps Today: The Imminent Coming of Christ
by Thomas Ice
https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt7.html

 

The New Testament teaching that Christ could return and rapture His church at any-moment, without prior signs or warning (i.e., imminency), is such a powerful argument for pretribulationism that it is one of the most fiercely attacked doctrines by pre-trib opponents. Non-pretribulationists sense that if the New Testament teaches imminency, then a pre-trib rapture is virtually assured.

 

Definition of Imminency:

 

What is the biblical definition of imminency?  Dr. Renald Showers defines and describes imminence as follows:

 

1) An imminent event is one which is always "hanging overhead, is constantly ready to befall or overtake one; close at hand in its incidence." ("imminent,"The Oxford English Dictionary, 1901, V, 66.) Thus, imminence carries the sense that it could happen at any moment.  Other things may happen before the imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens.  If something else must take place before an event can happen, then that event is not imminent. In other words, the necessity of something else taking place first destroys the concept of imminency.

 

It is my contention that, in these two Scripture verses, Jesus Christ is teaching us of the "imminence" of His coming Rapture of the church:

 

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus teaches, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

Acts 1:7, "He (Jesus) said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;' "

 

And, it is my contention that ONLY the PreTrib view is allowed by the teaching of imminence.   Those views which do not allow for the imminence of the Rapture -- cannot be valid.

 

GB, when you say of Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7 that "The TEACHING of Christ is NOT one of Imminence but rather stating that NO ONE knows the exact timing" -- your statement is similar to me saying, "No, that is a car.  I want an automobile!"  

 

Imminence and not knowing the exact timing mean the same.

 

And the PreWrath and MidTrib Rapture views deny the imminence of His coming to Rapture His church.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

AIG - The Gospel From The Beginning

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

Curious Bill, DHL™ - what did Jesus say about divorce?  Was he wrong?

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Strange you should have to ask that.  Maybe if you spent more time in church and Bible study -- you would know the answer.

 

Yes, Jesus did teach that the act of divorce is a sin.  And, it does not please God.

 

Why do you ask?   Are YOU contemplating getting a divorce?  

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

____________________

I'll give you the answer, Bill DHL™.  Jesus said "do not divorce".  He allows one exception.  Was your first wife "immoral"? 

 

So, you obey Jesus when you feel like it, and disregard him .... pretty much always. 

 

LOL!!! Saved, my ass. 

Last edited by CrustyMac

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