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Is This A

Blatantly Anti-Semitic Exchange on C-Span: ?

By Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

A caller on a C-Span interview program Monday complained about "all these Jews" having "way too much power" in America and pushing the U.S. into wars with the Muslim world. He found his comments echoed and expanded upon by the studio guest.
http://www.informationclearing...nfo/article24351.htm
''Freedom of the press is not an end in itself but a means to the end of [achieving] a free society.”
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I only gave the article a quick glance over as I am at work and pressed for time but we are not in Iraq and Afghanistan and threatening Iran for Israel. Israel is a western colony in a centuries long battle for the region. It works for the US as it worked hard to get the US or permission itself to bomb Iran and Bush said no,and that was that.

It is anti Semitic to say Jews have all the money and power and are a secret cabal running everything.

It is not anti Semitic to criticize Israel or it's crimes, especially against the Palestinians as they steal their land and commit a slow ethnic cleansing.

We are in the region as part of a strategy of world dominance. It is why we are moving into Africa now. We are using the threat of al Qaeda as an excuse to expand our power.

It is also an excuse to expand surveilance and power to crush dissent to these polocies at home.
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NashBama:

Have the Palestinians committed any crimes against Israel?


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As usual Nash you try to change the subject, The Palestinians are resisting ethnic cleansing. They have no army and retailate against Israeli crimes with suicide bombings. Suicide Bombings are crimes but so is ethnic cleansing, stealing land and repression.

Israel kills civilians all the time and as I say ethnic cleansing is a crime.

In the 1920's 30's and 40's when the European Zionists attacked Palestinian civilians and the British, both military and civilain to take the land were they crimes of terrorism?

You ask questions but never answer my questions.
quote:
As usual Nash you try to change the subject, The Palestinians are resisting ethnic cleansing. They have no army and retailate against Israeli crimes with suicide bombings. Suicide Bombings are crimes but so is ethnic cleansing, stealing land and repression.

Israel kills civilians all the time and as I say ethnic cleansing is a crime.

In the 1920's 30's and 40's when the European Zionists attacked Palestinian civilians and the British, both military and civilain to take the land were they crimes of terrorism?

You ask questions but never answer my questions.


That's directly on subject. Your post is about how Israel commits crimes against Palestine. My question is about those two groups. Besides, I always answer your questions, you just choose to ignore the answers. You always avoid my questions and this post is proof.

So here is the question again, let's see if you answer it. A simple yes or no will suffice, but feel free to expound.

Have the Palestinians committed any crimes against Israel?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I answered your questin Nash, you avoided mine, as usual. Is Israelis rthnic cleansing; and stealing their land a crime against the Palestinians? Did the European Zionists commit crimes of terrorism against Palestinians and the British?


Pogo: (Quote)
"As usual Nash you try to change the subject, The Palestinians are resisting ethnic cleansing. They have no army and retailate against Israeli crimes with suicide bombings. Suicide Bombings are crimes but so is ethnic cleansing, stealing land and repression."

Israel kills civilians all the time and as I say ethnic cleansing is a crime.

In the 1920's 30's and 40's when the European Zionists attacked Palestinian civilians and the British, both military and civilain to take the land were they crimes of terrorism?

You ask questions but never answer my questions. "

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:


That's directly on subject. Your post is about how Israel commits crimes against Palestine. My question is about those two groups. Besides, I always answer your questions, you just choose to ignore the answers. You always avoid my questions and this post is proof.

So here is the question again, let's see if you answer it. A simple yes or no will suffice, but feel free to expound.

Have the Palestinians committed any crimes against Israel?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


As far as Native Americans go suppise the UN decided to partiton the land back to Native Americans? What would be the American peoples respose?
quote:
As far as Native Americans go suppise the UN decided to partiton the land back to Native Americans? What would be the American peoples respose?


You didn't answer the question yet again. A simple yes or no will do, but feel free to expound afterwards.

Third and final time, Pogo.

Have the Palestinians committed any crimes against Israel?
Alison Weir: Calling Bono

http://counterpunch.com/weir01082010.html

Weekend Edition
January 8 - 10, 2010

Your Palestinian Gandhis Exist ... in Graves and Prisons

Calling Bono
By ALISON WEIR

Dear Bono,

In your recent column in the New York Times, "Ten for the Next Ten," you wrote: "I’ll place my hopes on the possibility — however remote at the moment — that...people in places filled with rage and despair, places like the Palestinian territories, will in the days ahead find among them their Gandhi, their King, their Aung San Suu Kyi."

Your hope has already been fulfilled in the Palestinian territories.

Unfortunately, these Palestinian Gandhis and Kings are being killed and imprisoned.

On the day that your op-ed appeared hoping for such leaders, three were languishing in Israeli prisons. No one knows how long they will be held, nor under what conditions; torture is common in Israeli prisons.

At least 19 Palestinians have been killed in the last six years alone during nonviolent demonstrations against Israel’s apartheid wall that is confiscating Palestinian cropland and imprisoning Palestinian people. Many others have been killed in other parts of the Palestinian territories while taking part in nonviolent activities. Hundreds more have been detained and imprisoned.

Recently Israel has begun a campaign to incarcerate the leaders of this diverse movement of weekly marches and demonstrations taking place in small Palestinian villages far from media attention.

The first Palestinian Gandhi to be rounded up in this recent purge was young Mohammad Othman, taken on Sept. 22 when he was returning home from speaking in Norway about nonviolent strategies to oppose Israeli oppression and land confiscation. He has now been held for 107 days without charges, much of it in solitary confinement.

The second was Abdallah Abu Rahma, a schoolteacher and farmer taken from his home on Dec. 10, the only one to be charged with a crime. After holding him for several days, Israel finally came up with a charge: “illegal weapons possession” – referring to the peace sign he had fashioned out of the spent teargas cartridges and bullets that Israel had shot at nonviolent demonstrators. (One such cartridge pierced the skull of Tristan Anderson, an American who was photographing the aftermath of a nonviolent march, causing part of his right frontal lobe to be removed.)

The third was Jamal Jumah’, a veteran leader in the grassroots struggle, who was taken by Israeli occupation forces on Dec. 16th and is now being held in shackles and often blindfolded during Kafkaesque Israeli military proceedings.

Palestinians have been engaging in nonviolence for decades.

When I was last in Nablus I learned of a massive nonviolent demonstration that had occurred in 2001 – estimates range from 10,000 to 50,000 Palestinian men, women, and children taking part in a nonviolent march. All sectors of Nablus had joined together in organizing this – public officials, diverse parties, religious, secular, Muslim, Christian.

Modeling their action on images of Dr. Martin Luther King, they marched arm-in-arm, believing that Israel would not kill them and that the world would care. They were wrong on both counts. Israeli forces immediately shot six dead and injured many more. And no one even knows about it. At If Americans Knew we are currently working on a video to try to remedy the last part; there’s nothing we can do about the dead.

But there’s a great deal you can do, Bono. You can use your talent and celebrity to tell the world these facts. You can write a New York Times op-ed about the Palestinian Gandhis in Israeli prisons and call for their freedom. You can sing of these Palestinian Martin Luther Kings you wished for, and by singing save their lives.

For the reality is that nonviolence is only as powerful as its visibility to the world. When it is made invisible through its lack of coverage by the New York Times, the Associated Press, CNN, Fox News, et al, its practitioners are in deadly danger, and their efforts to use nonviolence against injustice are doomed.

In the New York Times you publicly proclaimed your belief in nonviolence. Now is your chance to demonstrate your commitment.

* * *

Killed by Israeli forces while demonstrating against the Israeli wall being built on Palestinian land [http://palsolidarity.org/2009/06/7647]

5 June 2009:
Yousef ‘Akil’ Tsadik Srour, 36
Shot in the chest with 0.22 calibre live ammunition during a demonstration against the Wall in Ni’lin.

April 17, 2009:
Basem Abu Rahme, age 29
Shot in the chest with a high-velocity tear gas projectile during a demonstration against the Wall in Bil’in.

December 28, 2008:
Mohammad Khawaja, age 20
Shot in the head with live ammunition during a demonstration in Ni’lin against Israel’s assault on Gaza. Mohammad died in the hospital on December 31, 2009.

December 28, 2008:
Arafat Khawaja, age 22
Shot in the back with live ammunition in Ni’lin during a demonstration against Israel’s assault on Gaza.

July 30, 2008:
Youssef Ahmed Younes Amirah, age 17
Shot in the head with rubber coated bullets during a demonstration against the Wall in Ni’lin. Youssef died of his wounds on August 4, 2008.

July 29, 2008:
Ahmed Husan Youssef Mousa, age 10
Shot dead while he and several friends tried to remove coils of razor wire from land belonging to the village in Ni’lin.

March 2, 2008:
Mahmoud Muhammad Ahmad Masalmeh, age 15
Shot dead when trying to cut the razor wire portion of the Wall in Beit Awwa.

March 28, 2007:
Muhammad Elias Mahmoud ‘Aweideh, age 15
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Um a-Sharayet – Samiramis.

February 2, 2007:
Taha Muhammad Subhi al-Quljawi, age 16
Shot dead when he and two friends tried to cut the razor wire portion of the Wall in the Qalandiya Refugee Camp. He was wounded in the thigh and died from blood loss after remaining in the field for a long time without treatment.

May 4, 2005:
Jamal Jaber Ibrahim ‘Asi, age 15
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Beit Liqya.

May 4, 2005:
U’dai Mufid Mahmoud ‘Asi, age 14
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Beit Liqya.

February 15, 2005:
‘Alaa’ Muhammad ‘Abd a-Rahman Khalil, age 14
Shot dead while throwing stones at an Israeli vehicle driven by private security guards near the Wall in Betunya.

April 18, 2004:
Islam Hashem Rizik Zhahran, age 14
Shot during a demonstration against the Wall in Deir Abu Mash’al. Islam died of his wounds April 28, 2004.

April 18, 2004:
Diaa’ A-Din ‘Abd al-Karim Ibrahim Abu ‘Eid, age 23
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Biddu.

April 16, 2004:
Hussein Mahmoud ‘Awad ‘Alian, age 17
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Betunya.

February 26, 2004:
Muhammad Da’ud Saleh Badwan, age 21
Shot during a demonstration against the Wall in Biddu. Muhammad died of his wounds on March 3, 2004.

February 26, 2004:
Abdal Rahman Abu ‘Eid, age 17
Died of a heart attack after teargas projectiles were shot into his home during a demonstration against the Wall in Biddu.

February 26, 2004:
Muhammad Fadel Hashem Rian, age 25
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Biddu.

- Hide quoted text -
February 26, 2004:
Zakaria Mahmoud ‘Eid Salem, age 28
Shot dead during a demonstration against the Wall in Biddu.

Notes and Sources:

(1) Israeli was first exposed in the West by the London Times in the late 1970s. Foreign Service Journal [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/03/opinion/03bono.html] wrote about Israeli torture of Americans in June, 2002, and Addameer [http://addameer.info/?p=496] gives specifics today.

(2) Al Haq, the West Bank affiliate of the International Commission of Jurists – Geneva, writes: [http://freemohammadothman.wordpress.com/2010/01/] “…as part of their repression campaign, which coincided with the release of the Goldstone Report, the Israeli forces have re-launched daily dawn raids in villages affected by the Wall, arresting youths and children, for the purpose of extracting confessions about prominent community leaders advocating against the Wall, and continued to intimidate activists by destroying their private property and threatening them with detention. Finally, Israel has directly targeted the Grassroots “Stop the Wall” Campaign [http://stopthewall.org/index.shtml]by arresting and intimidating its leaders…His village, Jayyous, has been devastated by the Apartheid Wall

(3) Human Rights Watch [http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/12/04/israel-end-arbitrary-detention-rights-activist] found that “"The only reasonable conclusion is that Othman is being punished for his peaceful advocacy...”

(4) Abdallah Abu Rahma was taken [http://www.popularstruggle.org/freeabdallah]when “eleven military jeeps surrounded his house, and Israeli soldiers broke the door, extracted Abdallah from his bed, and, after briefly allowing him to say goodbye to his wife Majida and their three children — seven year-old Luma, five year-old Lian and eight month-old baby Laith, they blindfolded him and took him into custody.”

On Jan. 6th Abdallah wrote: [http://palsolidarity.org/2010/01/10429]:

“I mark the beginning of the new decade imprisoned in a military detention camp. Nevertheless, from within the occupation′s holding cell I meet the New Year with determination and hope…. Whether we are confined in the open-air prison that Gaza has been transformed into, in military prisons in the West Bank, or in our own villages surrounded by the Apartheid Wall, arrests and persecution do not weaken us. They only strengthen our commitment to turning 2010 into a year of liberation through unarmed grassroots resistance to the occupation.

“The price I and many others pay in freedom does not deter us. I wish that my two young daughters and baby son would not have to pay this price together with me. But for my son and daughters, for their future, we must continue our struggle for freedom…”

(5) Tristan Anderson was shot [http://palsolidarity.org/2009/03/5324] with a high-velocity canister after photographing a nonviolent protest in Ni’lin on March 13, 2009. His ambulance was held up for a period of time by Israeli forces before finally being allowed to take him to a hospital. Video of parents’ press conference [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcK_4ksR1fw]

(6) Israeli forces interrogated Jamal Juma’ and then “brought him back home, handcuffed, and searched his house while his wife and three children watched. Then they took him off to prison.” – CounterPunch [http://www.counterpunch.org/hijab12242009.html ] Despite being held for 20 days, [http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/2152.shtml] no charges have yet been brought against Jamal.

(7) The Nablus march mentioned above took place on March 30, 2001, on Jerusalem Street in the south of Nablus, leading to the Huwara checkpoint. This was on what Palestinians call the "Day of the Land" or "Land Day" (information on Land Day can be seen at http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/255.shtml).

(8) In our study of the Associated Press, “Deadly Distortion,” [http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html] we commented: “…our analysts looked at hundreds of articles that AP published on topics relating to the Israel/Palestine issue, and noted a number of additional patterns that merit further examination… Nonviolence movement. Palestinian resistance efforts have included numerous nonviolent marches and other activities, many joined by international participants, Israeli citizens, and faith-based groups. This nonviolence movement has been an important topic in the Palestinian territories, with growing numbers of people taking part – in 2004 the Palestinian News Network reported on 79 major demonstrations that were exclusively nonviolent. Yet, we did not find any reports in which AP had described a Palestinian demonstration or other activity as nonviolent or utilizing nonviolence.

Alison Weir is executive director of If Americans Knew, [http://www.ifamericansknew.org/] which provides information about Israel-Palestine. She can be reached at contact@ifamericansknew.org. She phoned and faxed Bono’s management company Principle Management [http://www.fanmail.biz/25157.html] at both their New York and Dublin locations in an effort to contact him but has not yet received a reply. She suggests that others may wish to do this as well: 212.765.2330 / fax: 212.765.2372.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Sucide bombings are crimes, as I have state now for the 3rd time.

They are in resposnse to ethnic cleasnsing and stealing land by the Israelis.


No, that's the first time you answered my question directly. Thanks.

The Israelis are not ethnic cleansing, completely false.

I don't read World Net Daily and I don't read Counterpunch. Both are biased and not worth the time. You don't get truly accurate information from a biased site.

So now another question. If both sides are guilty of committing crimes, why side with either? Aren't both at fault for the mess they're in?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NahsBama:

[quote]Originally posted by Pogo142:
Sucide bombings are crimes, as I have state now for the 3rd time.

They are in resposnse to ethnic cleasnsing and stealing land by the Israelis.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



No, that's the first time you answered my question directly. Thanks.

The Israelis are not ethnic cleansing, completely false.

I don't read World Net Daily and I don't read Counterpunch. Both are biased and not worth the time. You don't get truly accurate information from a biased site.

So now another question. If both sides are guilty of committing crimes, why side with either? Aren't both at fault for the mess they're in?


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It actually was the third time but don't worry about it. Counterpunch has provenb to be accurate as I have been reading and following the editor (who's name will be xxed by the Forum cennsors) sine the early 1970's, 73 or so and through the 198-'s in the Nation He has always been accurate and insightful. HIs agenda is the people and the truth.

No ethnic cleansing? You get that from where?

What are the Israeli settlements?

You take the side of the victim. The Palestinains were the majority people since the 7th century, Israel was destroyed and the Jews expelled by the Romans, like Carthage, it ceased to exist.

In the 18870's the European Jewsdecided they needed a homeland and claimed Palestine as the homeland. Land given to them by God. They came and took it with violence and terror.
quote:
It actually was the third time but don't worry about it. Counterpunch has provenb to be accurate as I have been reading and following the editor (who's name will be xxed by the Forum cennsors) sine the early 1970's, 73 or so and through the 198-'s in the Nation He has always been accurate and insightful. HIs agenda is the people and the truth.


Counterpunch claims have been debunked a number of times and is known to be antisemitic as well as it's editor. If you get your information from that source and take it seriously, then you aren't getting the truth. To lump that rag with supermarket tabloids would be an insult to tabloids.

You keep comparing the plight of the Native Americans with the Israel/Palestine conflict. Do you think that the people who were there first should have a claim on the land? Yes or no answer please, feel free to expound afterwards.
quote:
Anyone is free to checkout the Counterpunch site. It's way ahead in facts and insight then other publications and as I say the co editor Alexander ****burn has been writing since the early 1970's. He also writes for the Nation Magazine and was offered a column by the Wall Street Journal in the 80's as a Progressive counter to their conservative op writers. He turned it down.

Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic.


You didn't answer my question, what are the settlements?


I've checked out the Counterpunch site myself, I'm frightened that anyone actually takes that garbage seriously. No wonder you have such a morbid view of the world.

Criticism of Israel is not in itself anti Semitic if it's objective. To prove my point, please answer this question. Has Counterpunch ever criticized the Palestinians? Answer that question first and directly, then I'll answer your's.

quote:
The people that were there first have a right to the land, like the Native Americans. Problem is the Jews were gone when the Arabs arrived by then7th century, there was no Israel, it was just referred to as Palestine and part of Egypt and a part of Syria in the north. The Palestinians were there before the 1870 Europeans.


Your example backfires. If you really believe that the people who were in a location first has the right to the land, then the Israelis have the right to Israel because it existed as a nation first.

Besides, why did the Jews leave Israel in the first place? Did they just decide they were tired of it and left?

Besides, the Palestinians have the entire Middle East to make a nation. If you really think it's about land, you've been duped by that junk your reading. Israel is a tiny little strip of land. It's about Muslims wanting to eliminate Jews in the Middle East.
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NashBama


Pogo[quote]

Anyone is free to checkout the Counterpunch site. It's way ahead in facts and insight then other publications and as I say the co editor Alexander ****burn has been writing since the early 1970's. He also writes for the Nation Magazine and was offered a column by the Wall Street Journal in the 80's as a Progressive counter to their conservative op writers. He turned it down.

Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic.


You didn't answer my question, what are the settlements?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

I've checked out the Counterpunch site myself, I'm frightened that anyone actually takes that garbage seriously. No wonder you have such a morbid view of the world.

Criticism of Israel is not in itself anti Semitic if it's objective. To prove my point, please answer this question. Has Counterpunch ever criticized the Palestinians? Answer that question first and directly, then I'll answer your's.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Counterpinch is a newsletter but it's site has a number of articles. I am willing to discuss any article that "frightens you" as "unbelievable garbage." It has been accuesed as anti Semitic as anyone is who criticizes Israel.

It has had writers that criticize the Palestinians and so has it's editors, Jeffry St Clair and Alexander ****burn (Name will be censored). I have read Alex since the early 1970's when I lived in NYC he wrote for a publication the Village Voice, after Greenwhich Village a section of NY City He has always been accurate and insightful.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Pogo quote:

The people that were there first have a right to the land, like the Native Americans. Problem is the Jews were gone when the Arabs arrived by then7th century, there was no Israel, it was just referred to as Palestine and part of Egypt and a part of Syria in the north. The Palestinians were there before the 1870 Europeans.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Your example backfires. If you really believe that the people who were in a location first has the right to the land, then the Israelis have the right to Israel because it existed as a nation first.

Besides, why did the Jews leave Israel in the first place? Did they just decide they were tired of it and left?

Besides, the Palestinians have the entire Middle East to make a nation. If you really think it's about land, you've been duped by that junk your reading. Israel is a tiny little strip of land. It's about Muslims wanting to eliminate Jews in the Middle East.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Talk about being "duped." Jews have migrated from Europe to Arab lands and lived without problems to escape European anti Semitism for centuries. they lived togerher in peace in Palestine for centuries. The problems began with the Euopean Zionist violnce and terrorism and claim to the land. It's not about anti Smitism but stealing the land, repression and ethnic cleansing.

Your knowledge of the conflict is limited and biased becasue of the Corporate Media who's agenda is to promote American allies and vilify those who oppose it's aggression. All Arabs are not the same and we have Egyptians, Iraqi's, Lebanses, etc, why doesn't the US give up part of it's land to create Israel?

The Palestinians have agreed to peace and a two state solution, it is Israel that refuses.

AS far as orginal people you agree that America should go back to it's orginal inhabitants, the Indians.



The Jews drove out the original people
quote:
Talk about being "duped." Jews have migrated from Europe to Arab lands and lived without problems to escape European anti Semitism for centuries. they lived togerher in peace in Palestine for centuries. The problems began with the Euopean Zionist violnce and terrorism and claim to the land. It's not about anti Smitism but stealing the land, repression and ethnic cleansing.

Your knowledge of the conflict is limited and biased becasue of the Corporate Media who's agenda is to promote American allies and vilify those who oppose it's aggression. All Arabs are not the same and we have Egyptians, Iraqi's, Lebanses, etc, why doesn't the US give up part of it's land to create Israel?

The Palestinians have agreed to peace and a two state solution, it is Israel that refuses.


You didn't answer the question. Why did the Jews leave Israel in the first place after living there for centuries?

Palestinians didn't agree to squat. Israel turns over land to them and the fire mortars into Israel. It's not about the land. It's about Jews existing in the Middle East.

You obviously have no understanding of the conflict if you ask why the US doesn't give up land to create Israel. Because the ancestral home, the land that was promised to the Jews is not in North America. The historical Israel exists where the country is now. So one more time, why did the Jews leave it?

quote:
AS far as orginal people you agree that America should go back to it's orginal inhabitants, the Indians.


Tell you what, you give your house and land back to the Native Americans first. Then I'll do the same. Deal?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBana:

You didn't answer the question. Why did the Jews leave Israel in the first place after living there for centuries?

Palestinians didn't agree to squat. Israel turns over land to them and the fire mortars into Israel. It's not about the land. It's about Jews existing in the Middle East.

You obviously have no understanding of the conflict if you ask why the US doesn't give up land to create Israel. Because the ancestral home, the land that was promised to the Jews is not in North America. The historical Israel exists where the country is now. So one more time, why did the Jews leave it?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pogo:

quote:
AS far as orginal people you agree that America should go back to it's orginal inhabitants, the Indians.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Tell you what, you give your house and land back to the Native Americans first. Then I'll do the same. Deal?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


So you don't really believe what you post? By Golly I am Shocked!

Israel took 78% of the orginal partiton in 1948 until they were stopped by the Egyptian and Jordanian armies. In 1967 they invaded and took the rest of Palestine, Gaza along with East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Land legally partitioned to the Palestinians by the UN.

They also took the Sinia from Egypt which they traded back for peace under Carter and the Golan Heights from Syria, who also offers to make it an international park for peace.

I answered your question in my first post, Israel was destroyed by the Romans, gone, and the Jews expelled, like Carharage it ceased to exist.

You never answered my question, what are the settlements?

Israel did not give the Palestianians Gaza as it is legally Palestinian was and occupied by Israel. The rockets were in resposnse to Israelis blockade and allowing only the minimul amount of food and basically no parts to the land. Israel controls it's broders and sea and Egypt on the other side, monitored by Israel. they are slowly starving the people of Gaza. 1500 calories I bekieve it is,

AS far as Israelis' Centuries of Empire goes they were just Caanintes and took the land from the othe Caaninites. There actually was uncovered a whole civilization there even before that which was destroyed and built upon.

Early History

http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html

"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule." Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."
quote:
I answered your question in my first post, Israel was destroyed by the Romans, gone, and the Jews expelled, like Carharage it ceased to exist.


You just admitted that the Jews were in Israel first, but they were pushed out by foreigners. Therefore using your own logic with the comparison that America belongs to the Indians, Israel belongs to the Jews because it was their land before the Palestinians moved in.

What settlements are you talking about?

The Jews are there now, it's a tiny sliver of land with significant cultural and religious significance to them. The Palestinians have the entire Middle East to settle, but they kill people over a tiny little slip of land?

The issue isn't about land, it's about hatred. If the Palestinians would move on, both sides could live in peace. Israel has already tried to give land back to them, in return the Palestinians sent suicide bombers and launched mortars into homes.

Why is it the radical left always wants to support the bad guys? Suicide bombers, ruthless dictators, oppressive governments, all supported by the left. It makes no sense.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:

You just admitted that the Jews were in Israel first, but they were pushed out by foreigners. Therefore using your own logic with the comparison that America belongs to the Indians, Israel belongs to the Jews because it was their land before the Palestinians moved in.

What settlements are you talking about?

The Jews are there now, it's a tiny sliver of land with significant cultural and religious significance to them. The Palestinians have the entire Middle East to settle, but they kill people over a tiny little slip of land?

The issue isn't about land, it's about hatred. If the Palestinians would move on, both sides could live in peace. Israel has already tried to give land back to them, in return the Palestinians sent suicide bombers and launched mortars into homes.

Why is it the radical left always wants to support the bad guys? Suicide bombers, ruthless dictators, oppressive governments, all supported by the left. It makes no sense.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Trying to change the subject again eh!

What SETTLMENTS? You sound like Shara Palin, Babbling about somthing you know nothing about.

The settlements are Jewish settlments and towns built in the West Bank, land legally Palestinian which the Israel stole in their 1967 invasion. They steal the water and restrict it to the Palestinians who are seperated in small towns crisscrossed by military checkpoints and roads for "Jews only." They can not travel freely from town to town as Israel continues to build more settlements and steal more land.

When Ben Gurion arrived in Palestine in 1900 there were 50,000 Jews and 500,000 Palestinians, If it were about anti Semitism there would not have been any Jews. They had escaped European persecution for centuries by living in the Middle East among the Muslims who accpeted them. When Hitler came to power in the 1930's they came by the tens of thousands to Palestine.

Where are the Palestinians to move to? They already have a land, the 1880's Europeans came and took it with terror and violence and continue t do so today. Syrians are Syrians and Iraqi's and Irans and Egyptians and so forth, why must the Palestinians move.

Do you believe two wrongs make a right?

You say the people there first deserve the land but not when it applies to you. What would you do if the UN Partitioned America, like it did Palestine in 1948, and gave half of America back to Native Americans? Would you resist?

You say one thing then another, which is it?

Israel wants people to think it's about anti Semitism when it's about them stealing the land.

The rocket fire was in response to Israelis bockade of food and fuel and restrictions on amounts of medical aid.
quote:
What SETTLMENTS? You sound like Shara Palin, Babbling about somthing you know nothing about.

The settlements are Jewish settlments and towns built in the West Bank, land legally Palestinian which the Israel stole in their 1967 invasion. They steal the water and restrict it to the Palestinians who are seperated in small towns crisscrossed by military checkpoints and roads for "Jews only." They can not travel freely from town to town as Israel continues to build more settlements and steal more land.

When Ben Gurion arrived in Palestine in 1900 there were 50,000 Jews and 500,000 Palestinians, If it were about anti Semitism there would not have been any Jews. They had escaped European persecution for centuries by living in the Middle East among the Muslims who accpeted them. When Hitler came to power in the 1930's they came by the tens of thousands to Palestine.

Where are the Palestinians to move to? They already have a land, the 1880's Europeans came and took it with terror and violence and continue t do so today. Syrians are Syrians and Iraqi's and Irans and Egyptians and so forth, why must the Palestinians move.

Do you believe two wrongs make a right?


I know what the Jewish settlements are, I just wanted to see your version of it. It was pretty much as I expected, not totally accurate.

In the early 80's and in 2005 Israelis abandoned many settlements and withdrew, giving land back to the Palestinians. This wasn't good enough, Palestinians continued their terrorist attacks.

So it's not really stealing land when they try to give it back.

There are about 300 thousand Israelis living in various settlements throughout the West Bank today. Keep in mind that the term "settlement" refers to small villages and towns. They are dotted through the West Bank, the rest of the area is occupied by the Palestinians. They have plenty of land and places to live, they just don't want Jews in the Middle East at all, so they continue to attack them.

quote:
You say the people there first deserve the land but not when it applies to you. What would you do if the UN Partitioned America, like it did Palestine in 1948, and gave half of America back to Native Americans? Would you resist?


Would you?

I never said that the people in a land first deserved the land. Those are your words that I'm using against you. On one side you want to turn America back over to the Native Americans because they were here first. On the other, you want the Palestinians to take over Israel even though Israel is the religious and cultural home of the Jews and who were there centuries earlier.

You're contradicting yourself, you can't have it both ways.

quote:
Israel wants people to think it's about anti Semitism when it's about them stealing the land.

The rocket fire was in response to Israelis bockade of food and fuel and restrictions on amounts of medical aid.


So you believe that two wrongs make a right?

If Palestinians would leave the Jews alone, they wouldn't have to worry about blockades or tight security. Besides, I haven't read anything about food, fuel, and medical blockades. Please provide an authentic source. By authentic, I mean a legitimate and respected news source, not some left wing junk.

Here is a good example to think about, the 1972 Olympics. Palestinians attacked Jewish athletes, tried to kidnap them, and murdered them. That was in Germany, not Israel. That had nothing to do with land, blockades, or anything other than hatred.

A peaceful agreement could be reached easier if the Palestinians didn't resort to terrorist attacks. Yet, they kill innocent people and you side with them. Why do you always side with the bad guys?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



(Pogo) Quote:

What SETTLMENTS? You sound like Shara Palin, Babbling about somthing you know nothing about.

The settlements are Jewish settlments and towns built in the West Bank, land legally Palestinian which the Israel stole in their 1967 invasion. They steal the water and restrict it to the Palestinians who are seperated in small towns crisscrossed by military checkpoints and roads for "Jews only." They can not travel freely from town to town as Israel continues to build more settlements and steal more land.

When Ben Gurion arrived in Palestine in 1900 there were 50,000 Jews and 500,000 Palestinians, If it were about anti Semitism there would not have been any Jews. They had escaped European persecution for centuries by living in the Middle East among the Muslims who accepted them. When Hitler came to power in the 1930's they came by the tens of thousands to Palestine.

Where are the Palestinians to move to? They already have a land, the 1880's Europeans came and took it with terror and violence and continue to do so today. Syrians are Syrians and Iraqi's and Iran and Egyptians and so forth, why must the Palestinians move.

Do you believe two wrongs make a right?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

I know what the Jewish settlements are, I just wanted to see your version of it. It was pretty much as I expected, not totally accurate.

In the early 80's and in 2005 Israelis abandoned many settlements and withdrew, giving land back to the Palestinians. This wasn't good enough, Palestinians continued their terrorist attacks.

So it's not really stealing land when they try to give it back.

There are about 300 thousand Israelis living in various settlements throughout the West Bank today. Keep in mind that the term "settlement" refers to small villages and towns. They are dotted through the West Bank, the rest of the area is occupied by the Palestinians. They have plenty of land and places to live, they just don't want Jews in the Middle East at all, so they continue to attack them.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pogo


Sure, you know what the settlements are, you were just testing me,LOL,
Where did you get that information from Wikipeda?

The Jewish settlements are in occupied Palestine, land that legally belongs to Palestinians that Israeli invaded in 67 and began building settlements in violation of international law. Land taken in war is not legal nor are they allowed to build or transfer their citizens to the occupied land, Why are they building settlements in land that is not theirs?

Israel claims the land and is taking it. It builds these settlements then gives tax breaks and incentives for Jews to move there. they are connected by roads for "Jews only" separating and isolating Palestinians.with military checkpoints Palestinians must pass through.

Here are maps of the settlements from the UN, see for yourself.
OVERVIEW: QUESTION OF PALESTINE

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/qpal/overview.htm

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


(Pogo)
quote:
You say the people there first deserve the land but not when it applies to you. What would you do if the UN Partitioned America, like it did Palestine in 1948, and gave half of America back to Native Americans? Would you resist?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama


Would you?

I never said that the people in a land first deserved the land. Those are your words that I'm using against you. On one side you want to turn America back over to the Native Americans because they were here first. On the other, you want the Palestinians to take over Israel even though Israel is the religious and cultural home of the Jews and who were there centuries earlier.

You're contradicting yourself, you can't have it both ways.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Pogo

No, you are contradicting yourself, you said the Jews were there first so they deserve the land and I asked what about Native Americans and you haven't answered my questions, as usual, cornered in your lies and double talk you jump to another subject



________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(Pogo) quote:
Israel wants people to think it's about anti Semitism when it's about them stealing the land.

The rocket fire was in response to Israelis blockade of food and fuel and restrictions on amounts of medical aid.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama

So you believe that two wrongs make a right?


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Pogo

The Palestinians are resisting starvation and ethnic cleansing, as an occupied people they have the right to resist occupation. It is a blockcade against civilians. Women and children

The Rockets are not even effective, they are home made and the majority land harmlessly in the country side. They have hit a house or two and wounded a few Israelis ands killed one or two.

Israel has the 4thto 6th most poweful military in the world with the most accurate and sophisticated weapons hardly a comparrision.


________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:



If Palestinians would leave the Jews alone, they wouldn't have to worry about blockades or tight security. Besides, I haven't read anything about food, fuel, and medical blockades. Please provide an authentic source. By authentic, I mean a legitimate and respected news source, not some left wing junk.

Here is a good example to think about, the 1972 Olympics. Palestinians attacked Jewish athletes, tried to kidnap them, and murdered them. That was in Germany, not Israel. That had nothing to do with land, blockades, or anything other than hatred.

A peaceful agreement could be reached easier if the Palestinians didn't resort to terrorist attacks. Yet, they kill innocent people and you side with them. Why do you always side with the bad guys?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



The Olympic kidnappings were for a hostage exchange. Israel arrests and hold Palestinians without trial or charges. It has a couple thousand such prisoners. It also holds kangaroo military trials that do not meet international standards and holds a couple more thousands on theses trials. The Olympic athletes were killed when the Germans snipers began opening fire as they were moving the hostages and killing the Palestinians, when they realized they were double crossed and were being shot they shot the hostages.

The Palestinians have been agreeing to peace if Israel will end the occupation and remove their illegal settlements, Israel refuses and continues to build settlements in land legalty Palestinian and kill, jail and repress the Palestinians
quote:
Sure, you know what the settlements are, you were just testing me,LOL,
Where did you get that information from Wikipeda?

The Jewish settlements are in occupied Palestine, land that legally belongs to Palestinians that Israeli invaded in 67 and began building settlements in violation of international law. Land taken in war is not legal nor are they allowed to build or transfer their citizens to the occupied land, Why are they building settlements in land that is not theirs?

Israel claims the land and is taking it. It builds these settlements then gives tax breaks and incentives for Jews to move there. they are connected by roads for "Jews only" separating and isolating Palestinians.with military checkpoints Palestinians must pass through.

Here are maps of the settlements from the UN, see for yourself.


No, I wasn't testing you, I wanted to see how far from reality you were. Turns out, pretty far.

Look at this image. The yellow part is Palestinian land. Also, keep in mind that the land you're looking at is probably smaller than Rhode Island.




quote:
The Palestinians are resisting starvation and ethnic cleansing, as an occupied people they have the right to resist occupation. It is a blockcade against civilians. Women and children

The Rockets are not even effective, they are home made and the majority land harmlessly in the country side. They have hit a house or two and wounded a few Israelis ands killed one or two.

Israel has the 4thto 6th most poweful military in the world with the most accurate and sophisticated weapons hardly a comparrision.


Provide proof.

quote:
The Olympic kidnappings were for a hostage exchange. Israel arrests and hold Palestinians without trial or charges. It has a couple thousand such prisoners. It also holds kangaroo military trials that do not meet international standards and holds a couple more thousands on theses trials. The Olympic athletes were killed when the Germans snipers began opening fire as they were moving the hostages and killing the Palestinians, when they realized they were double crossed and were being shot they shot the hostages.

The Palestinians have been agreeing to peace if Israel will end the occupation and remove their illegal settlements, Israel refuses and continues to build settlements in land legalty Palestinian and kill, jail and repress the Palestinians


You're defending the terrorists responsible for the '72 Olympic tragedy? I really don't know how to respond to this.

If you really believe that human life is precious and that we are all created equal, I don't see how you can possibly justify the disgusting act of terrorism that happened in Munich. It doesn't matter what it was for, it doesn't matter who fired the first shot. Innocent people died, and by innocent I'm referring to the athletes only.

Answer please yes or no. Were the Palestinians wrong for their terrorist attack against the Israeli athletes?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Nashbama

quote:

Answer please yes or no. Were the Palestinians wrong for their terrorist attack against the Israeli athletes?



_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I can't seem to post pictures yet on the Forum but will learn and post the UN maps, which I give the links too on the settlements so posters can go directly to the site and see for themselves. Israel has a couple hundred settlements on land that is legally Palestinian that crisscross and isolate the Palestinians into small pockets with military checkpoints and roads for "Jews Only."

You don't answer my questions then ask questions that are partially untruthful and do not explain the situation. Where the German Snipers right to shoot the Palestinians after they promised them safe passage? The Palestinians took the hostages for a hostage exchange, not to kill them. When they were fired upon and killed they killed the hostages.
quote:
I can't seem to post pictures yet on the Forum but will learn and post the UN maps, which I give the links too on the settlements so posters can go directly to the site and see for themselves. Israel has a couple hundred settlements on land that is legally Palestinian that crisscross and isolate the Palestinians into small pockets with military checkpoints and roads for "Jews Only."


Small pockets? Go back and look at the map, the small pockets are the ones in red and orange. The yellow, which makes up almost all the map, is Palestinian land.

Maybe if Palestinians didn't strap bombs to themselves and blow people up, they would be welcomed in Jewish settlements. It makes more sense to get along with your neighbors instead of attacking them, right?

If your neighbors threatened to kill you, shot at your house, and you knew their ambition was to see you dead, would you invite them in for a beer or would you lock the door?

quote:
You don't answer my questions then ask questions that are partially untruthful and do not explain the situation. Where the German Snipers right to shoot the Palestinians after they promised them safe passage? The Palestinians took the hostages for a hostage exchange, not to kill them. When they were fired upon and killed they killed the hostages.


Not true. I always answer your questions and I provide evidence such as the map above so that you know what I'm saying is authentic.

I'm not perfect, I don't know everything and I make mistakes. That's why I always ask you for authentic evidence, but you never seem to post any.

Now, when I've asked you really easy questions, you avoid them. So let's start over and have a civil exchange. I'll ask a question, you answer and ask me one. We'll keep it simple.

My question: Were the Palestinians wrong for their terrorist attack against the Israeli athletes?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pogo
[quote]quote:
I can't seem to post pictures yet on the Forum but will learn and post the UN maps, which I give the links too on the settlements so posters can go directly to the site and see for themselves. Israel has a couple hundred settlements on land that is legally Palestinian that crisscross and isolate the Palestinians into small pockets with military checkpoints and roads for "Jews Only."

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama:
Small pockets? Go back and look at the map, the small pockets are the ones in red and orange. The yellow, which makes up almost all the map, is Palestinian land.

Maybe if Palestinians didn't strap bombs to themselves and blow people up, they would be welcomed in Jewish settlements. It makes more sense to get along with your neighbors instead of attacking them, right?

If your neighbors threatened to kill you, shot at your house, and you knew their ambition was to see you dead, would you invite them in for a beer or would you lock the door?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


(Pogo)
quote:
You don't answer my questions then ask questions that are partially untruthful and do not explain the situation. Where the German Snipers right to shoot the Palestinians after they promised them safe passage? The Palestinians took the hostages for a hostage exchange, not to kill them. When they were fired upon and killed they killed the hostages.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

Not true. I always answer your questions and I provide evidence such as the map above so that you know what I'm saying is authentic.

I'm not perfect, I don't know everything and I make mistakes. That's why I always ask you for authentic evidence, but you never seem to post any.

Now, when I've asked you really easy questions, you avoid them. So let's start over and have a civil exchange. I'll ask a question, you answer and ask me one. We'll keep it simple.

My question: Were the Palestinians wrong for their terrorist attack against the Israeli athletes?


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I would like to see the link, which you did not post, for your map. It is not accurate and does not list all of Israelis settlements. I gave the link to the UN which has documented a few hundred settements scatted thoughout Palestine and posts a number of maps.

The Palestinains "strap bombs" on themselves and blow up Israelis because they have no tanks, or F 16's or army to retailate Israelis attacks that kill Palestinian civilians. The Palestinians wouldn't be attacking if they weren't invaded and attacked first. They did tolerate Jews for centuries in Palestine, it wasn't until Jewish terrorist groups in the 1920's began attacking the British, who had Jurisdiction from WW1, and Palestinians in order to take the land for their Jewish State.

Yes, the Palestinains were wrong to take the Olympic atheletes hostage for a hostage swap in the first place.

Do you believe a country has the right to build settlements in another countries land? Would the Russians have the right to build cities, under their jurisdiction, in America and connect them by roads "for Russians only"?
quote:
I would like to see the link, which you did not post, for your map. It is not accurate and does not list all of Israelis settlements. I gave the link to the UN which has documented a few hundred settements scatted thoughout Palestine and posts a number of maps.


Here's the link, it's from a BBC article about Israelis being evicted from their settlements in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4170302.stm

Just because the map doesn't show what you want it to doesn't mean it's not accurate. The BBC is a highly respected journalist organization. They have far more credibility than the stuff you've cited.

I checked the UN link you posted, there is a map collection link. I clicked that and found tons of other links. After clicking a few of them and not seeing any maps, I gave up.

Please post this specific UN map you keep mentioning. Either a direct link or post it in the thread.

quote:
The Palestinains "strap bombs" on themselves and blow up Israelis because they have no tanks, or F 16's or army to retailate Israelis attacks that kill Palestinian civilians. The Palestinians wouldn't be attacking if they weren't invaded and attacked first. They did tolerate Jews for centuries in Palestine, it wasn't until Jewish terrorist groups in the 1920's began attacking the British, who had Jurisdiction from WW1, and Palestinians in order to take the land for their Jewish State.


Why would Israel want to kill Palestinian civilians? Look back at what you just said, you're justifying suicide bombers. Maybe if the Palestinians didn't resort to terrorist acts and tried to solve the problem peacefully, then Israelis wouldn't have to defend themselves resulting in civilian casualties. Don't you think that would be a better option than suicide attacks?

quote:
Yes, the Palestinains were wrong to take the Olympic atheletes hostage for a hostage swap in the first place.


Good, we agree there. So why would you defend a group that would commit acts you believe to be wrong?

quote:
Do you believe a country has the right to build settlements in another countries land? Would the Russians have the right to build cities, under their jurisdiction, in America and connect them by roads "for Russians only"?


So you're saying that Israel is a country just like Russia and the United States? Where is the country of Israel located?
quote:
quote:
I would like to see the link, which you did not post, for your map. It is not accurate and does not list all of Israelis settlements. I gave the link to the UN which has documented a few hundred settements scatted thoughout Palestine and posts a number of maps.


Here's the link, it's from a BBC article about Israelis being evicted from their settlements in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4170302.stm

Just because the map doesn't show what you want it to doesn't mean it's not accurate. The BBC is a highly respected journalist organization. They have far more credibility than the stuff you've cited.

I checked the UN link you posted, there is a map collection link. I clicked that and found tons of other links. After clicking a few of them and not seeing any maps, I gave up.

Please post this specific UN map you keep mentioning. Either a direct link or post it in the thread.


quote:
The Palestinains "strap bombs" on themselves and blow up Israelis because they have no tanks, or F 16's or army to retailate Israelis attacks that kill Palestinian civilians. The Palestinians wouldn't be attacking if they weren't invaded and attacked first. They did tolerate Jews for centuries in Palestine, it wasn't until Jewish terrorist groups in the 1920's began attacking the British, who had Jurisdiction from WW1, and Palestinians in order to take the land for their Jewish State.


Why would Israel want to kill Palestinian civilians? Look back at what you just said, you're justifying suicide bombers. Maybe if the Palestinians didn't resort to terrorist acts and tried to solve the problem peacefully, then Israelis wouldn't have to defend themselves resulting in civilian casualties. Don't you think that would be a better option than suicide attacks?


quote:
Yes, the Palestinains were wrong to take the Olympic atheletes hostage for a hostage swap in the first place.


Good, we agree there. So why would you defend a group that would commit acts you believe to be wrong?


quote:
Do you believe a country has the right to build settlements in another countries land? Would the Russians have the right to build cities, under their jurisdiction, in America and connect them by roads "for Russians only"?


So you're saying that Israel is a country just like Russia and the United States? Where is the country of Israel located?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yes, the BBC is a credible source but the article is about only Gaza, only the one section, it is not about the West Bank which is the major part of Palestine and on the other side of Israel. Israel cuts the two sections in half by the UN Resolution.

Still, the maaps are incomplete because Israel has set aside land for future growth and more settlements. Israel claims the land. And it does not show how the settlements are connected by Military Check Points and roads for "Jews Only."

The Link I gave is from the UN and it has a section with about a dozen maps. Checkout those maps and you will see Israel has hundreds of setlements and plans for future settlements, land set aside.

Your not reading what I wrote, the Palestinians were invaded and fight back in retailation to attacks from Israel. Israel has killed twice to three times the number of civilians the Palestinians have, but they are US allies and a Western out post so the Corporate Media doen't really mention it. It does this for all our allies.

Why would you defend people who kill civilians, a couple thousand a year, steal land and imprison people without charge or trial?

You didn't answer my last question.
quote:
Yes, the BBC is a credible source but the article is about only Gaza, only the one section, it is not about the West Bank which is the major part of Palestine and on the other side of Israel. Israel cuts the two sections in half by the UN Resolution.


You're splitting hairs. Before you I told you the map was from a BBC report, you said it was inaccurate. Now you admit the BBC is credible, therefore you are acknowledging that you're wrong.

quote:
The Link I gave is from the UN and it has a section with about a dozen maps. Checkout those maps and you will see Israel has hundreds of setlements and plans for future settlements, land set aside.


I looked for them, I didn't see them. If you've seen them, link them directly or post them in the forum.

quote:
Your not reading what I wrote, the Palestinians were invaded and fight back in retailation to attacks from Israel. Israel has killed twice to three times the number of civilians the Palestinians have, but they are US allies and a Western out post so the Corporate Media doen't really mention it. It does this for all our allies.


Post the statistic where Israel has killed three times more civilians than Palestine.

Also, keep in mind that a civilian is someone who is not participating in battle. If you are shooting at soldiers or blowing yourself up, you are not a civilian.

quote:
Why would you defend people who kill civilians, a couple thousand a year, steal land and imprison people without charge or trial?

You didn't answer my last question.


So here's your answer. Israel is a tiny strip of land in the Middle East. It is the cultural and religious homeland for the Jews, it has been for centuries. The nation of Israel, which you have acknowledged in one of your examples that it is a nation, has existed long before Palestine. Therefore, the land belongs to them.

That means I can't support a group trying to force them out of their land through means of terrorism, kidnapping, murdering civilians, and propaganda. They have territory to build a country. They have the ability to develop and prosper. They are too focused on eliminating all Jews from the Middle East to actually build a country themselves.

All through history there has been some group trying to eliminate the Jews from existence. The Egyptians, the Persians, to the Germans and now Palestinians. It's also part of history that every group that has tried to eliminate the Jews have failed.

There, question answered. You can read all the leftist propaganda you want, just keep in mind that the Palestinians need people to buy into their fake sob story. As long as they can get some support from misinformed Americans, they can keep launching terrorist attacks.
It's obvious you know very little about the conflict and refuse to learn. You are a typical American and kept in the dark to the conflict. You trust the Corporate Media and Govenrment without question as if they had no agenda of their own, and gobble up the crap they feed you.

You said you wanted to have a civil discussion but when you realized you are ignorant of the conflict you are the one that "Splits Hairs," and throws a "sissy fit."

Not knowing about Gaza and the West Bank is a huge gaff.

The Jews were gone when the Palestinians settled their in the 7th century. IT was reclaimed by the 1870's Europeans, in typical colonial fashion they took it with violence and terror.

The Palestinians were invaded and Israel claims all the land. It is why they are building settlements in the West Bank. In Gaza they hope to starve the people out. The Palestinians have agreed to peace and UN Resolution 242, the two state solution, Israel refuses and continues killing, repression, ethnic cleansing and stealing the land.

Here are some links from Amnesty International.


Israel / Occupied Palestinian Territories Human Rights | Reports, News Article ing to Protect Human Rights

http://www.amnesty.org/en/regi...estinian-territories

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories Human Rights | Reports, News

A http://www.amnesty.org/en/regi...ritories/report-2009


Israel's Gaza blockade continues to suffocate daily life

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news...-daily-life-20100118
quote:
ou said you wanted to have a civil discussion but when you realized you are ignorant of the conflict you are the one that "Splits Hairs," and throws a "sissy fit."


It's "hissy fit", not "sissy fit". You should visit the South sometime, it's nice here.

I've kept the discussion civil. I've debunked everything you've provided. When you limit your view to only one side of the story, you will never be fully informed.

quote:
The Jews were gone when the Palestinians settled their in the 7th century. IT was reclaimed by the 1870's Europeans, in typical colonial fashion they took it with violence and terror.


You are glossing over something very significant. Why were the Jews gone? Did they just pack up and leave meaning anyone could just come in and permanently claim their former homes?

You're also missing my point. If the Palestinians didn't use terrorist tactics, then the high security wouldn't be needed. Maybe if they worked together to find a way to cohabitate on this tiny strip of land, there would be peace. Instead, the Palestinians want to rid the Middle East of all Jewish people and you're right behind them.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

(Pogo)
[quote]ou said you wanted to have a civil discussion but when you realized you are ignorant of the conflict you are the one that "Splits Hairs," and throws a "sissy fit."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's "hissy fit", not "sissy fit". You should visit the South sometime, it's nice here.

I've kept the discussion civil. I've debunked everything you've provided. When you limit your view to only one side of the story, you will never be fully informed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


(Pogo) I gave you links to the UN which has maps and information on how they are stealing the land plus links to Amnesty International on Human Rights and Israelis killing civilians, including almost 400 children

You are tremendously ignorant of the conflict as you did not know about the West Bank and Gaza but since when would that stop you? You insist on trying to "Split Hairs"
and bully your way through.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Pogo
quote:
The Jews were gone when the Palestinians settled their in the 7th century. It was reclaimed by the 1870's Europeans, in typical colonial fashion they took it with violence and terror.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama:

You are glossing over something very significant. Why were the Jews gone? Did they just pack up and leave meaning anyone could just come in and permanently claim their former homes?

You're also missing my point. If the Palestinians didn't use terrorist tactics, then the high security wouldn't be needed. Maybe if they worked together to find a way to cohabitate on this tiny strip of land, there would be peace. Instead, the Palestinians want to rid the Middle East of all Jewish people and you're right behind them.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


You are the one "glossing over something very significant" The Palestinians have been living there since the 7th centuryand the Jews were a very small minority, Israel ceased to exist. You believe the Jews have the right to the land becasue they were there first and were driven out 2,000 years ago by the Romans, (Ancient History) but when I ask you do the same rights cover Native Americans only 200 years ago you get flip. Using your "logic" White Europeans have plenty land in Europe and we should go back there.

The Palestinians did accept Jews, a Two State Solution and UN Resolution 242, return the land Israel stole in their 1967 invasion for peace. Israel refuses and as the links in Amnesty International show they are the aggressors, the real terrorists. The Palestinains are trying to defend themselves. They have no army, tanks or planes, Israeli hass the 4th to 6th most powerful military in the world and are armed, by the US, with the most sophistcated modern weapons, tanks, fighters, helicopters which they use to subjugate the Palestinains while they steal their land and cry the victim.
quote:
You are the one "glossing over something very significant" The Palestinians have been living there since the 7th centuryand the Jews were a very small minority, Israel ceased to exist. You believe the Jews have the right to the land becasue they were there first and were driven out 2,000 years ago by the Romans, (Ancient History) but when I ask you do the same rights cover Native Americans only 200 years ago you get flip. Using your "logic" White Europeans have plenty land in Europe and we should go back there.


The Israelis revolted against the Byzantines or Eastern Roman Empire. The revolt failed and the Jews were exiled. The Arabs came in later and managed to defeat the Byzantines.

You're the one who believes that we should all pack up and give the entire country back to the Native Americans. However, you believe that the Palestinians should get to keep Israel despite the Israelis being there first. You simply can't have it both ways.

The rest of your post shows that you only have one side to the story. If you believe that the Israelis are the terrorists, then you should broaden your news sources to include those with journalistic integrity, not just propaganda.

Israel is the cultural and religious homeland of the Jews, it has been for thousands of years. There is now a tiny fraction of land in the Middle East that has been given back to them. The Palestinians simply want to eradicate the Middle East of Jewish people.

So what is your solution?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


NashBama


[quote]Israel is the cultural and religious homeland of the Jews, it has been for thousands of years. There is now a tiny fraction of land in the Middle East that has been given back to them. The Palestinians simply want to eradicate the Middle East of Jewish people.

So what is your solution?


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Land Has been Arabic since the 7th century, not Jewish. Who did Europe fight the Crusades against? The Jews? No, it was Arabic. There were a tiny minority of Jews that lived in peace.

My Solution is that Israel accept the two state solution of the UN, One Jewish State and One Palestinian. The Palestinains have accepted that as well as peace and UN Resolution 242. Israel refuses and claims all the land, Period. Then plays the victim.

You refuse to brodan your sources. The Corporate Media has it's own agenda and promotes it in the way they report the news.

I also believe that they should work on the one State of Palestine with equal rights for all like they did in South Africa.
quote:
The Land Has been Arabic since the 7th century, not Jewish. Who did Europe fight the Crusades against? The Jews? No, it was Arabic. There were a tiny minority of Jews that lived in peace.


Yes, and who was next to conquer the land? The British. Then they gave it back to the Jews so that they could rebuild their country that they lost centuries ago from the Romans.

So brief timeline for you. The Jews took it from the Canaanites, the Romans took it from the Jews, the Arabs took it from the Romans, the Turks took it from the Arabs, the British took it from the Turks, the British GAVE it back to the Jews.

During that entire time, there was no group of people known as "Palestinians". They are a modern formed group of Muslims living near Israel. There has never been a nation called "Palestine".

Therefore, the current owners of the crappy, tiny strip of sand is the Israelis. The only time that land had any value at all is when the Jews occupied it. When the tiny piece of land was owned by other people, it was neglected and barely populated. Even then, there were small groups of Jews in the area.

quote:
My Solution is that Israel accept the two state solution of the UN, One Jewish State and One Palestinian. The Palestinains have accepted that as well as peace and UN Resolution 242. Israel refuses and claims all the land, Period. Then plays the victim.


Tried it, failed. Israel gave land to the Palestinians to create their own country. They couldn't stop blowing themselves up and lobbing mortars at Israel.

It has nothing to do with land, it has to do with hatred. I know the radical left for whatever reason has to side with the bad guys in any given situation, but there simply is no justification in this instance.
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(Pogo)
[quote]The Land Has been Arabic since the 7th century, not Jewish. Who did Europe fight the Crusades against? The Jews? No, it was Arabic. There were a tiny minority of Jews that lived in peace.

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NashBama:

Yes, and who was next to conquer the land? The British. Then they gave it back to the Jews so that they could rebuild their country that they lost centuries ago from the Romans.

So brief timeline for you. The Jews took it from the Canaanites, the Romans took it from the Jews, the Arabs took it from the Romans, the Turks took it from the Arabs, the British took it from the Turks, the British GAVE it back to the Jews.

During that entire time, there was no group of people known as "Palestinians". They are a modern formed group of Muslims living near Israel. There has never been a nation called "Palestine".

Therefore, the current owners of the crappy, tiny strip of sand is the Israelis. The only time that land had any value at all is when the Jews occupied it. When the tiny piece of land was owned by other people, it was neglected and barely populated. Even then, there were small groups of Jews in the area.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Pogo

Palestinains from the region always referred to themselves as being from Palestine and it was part of Egypt and Syria under the Ottoman Empire. When the British were given Jurisdiciton after WW1 they Created Jordan in 1920's. The British were driven out by Jewish terrorist groups, like the bombing of the King David Hotel.

The British handed Jurisdiction over to the UN, not the Jews. The UN divided the land, going against it's own charter. It should have allowed elections but it was clear the Palestinians would win an election so they divided the land.

By their own writings early Zionists that went to Palestine found it inhabitated and cultivated and wrote they must "clear the land as their fore fathers had." When Ben Gurion arrived in 1900 there were 50,000 Jews and 500,000 Palestinians.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
(Pogo)
quote:
My Solution is that Israel accept the two state solution of the UN, One Jewish State and One Palestinian. The Palestinains have accepted that as well as peace and UN Resolution 242. Israel refuses and claims all the land, Period. Then plays the victim.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

NashBama

Tried it, failed. Israel gave land to the Palestinians to create their own country. They couldn't stop blowing themselves up and lobbing mortars at Israel.

It has nothing to do with land, it has to do with hatred. I know the radical left for whatever reason has to side with the bad guys in any given situation, but there simply is no justification in this instance.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your lumping history together. Israel invaded the Palestinain side of the Partition in 1967 and began mapping out and building settlements within 3 months after the war ended. European Zionists have always claimed all of Palestine, it's why they buld the settlements.

They built settlements in Gaza but withdrew them and enforced a blockade that rations food, medicine and other supplies. That is why the Palestinians have launched crudely made rockets, with no guidance systems, into Israel. Over 90% have fallen harmlessly into the dessert.

Israel returned the Sinia, which they took from Egypt in 1967, for peace and have had peace with Egypt since 1978. They refuse to withdraw from the West Bank and East Jerusalem and enforce a restrictive and cruel military occupation instead. They have refused the two state solution and it is why they have been building settlements since 1967 and giving Jews incentives and tax breaks to move there.

The Left sides with the victim of aggression.
quote:
Your lumping history together. Israel invaded the Palestinain side of the Partition in 1967 and began mapping out and building settlements within 3 months after the war ended. European Zionists have always claimed all of Palestine, it's why they buld the settlements.


That is flat out completely false. You need to research the Six Day War of 1967.

The PLO was formed in the early 60's with the intent of eliminating Israel. Proof of this is in their logo, it includes a map of the entire nation of Israel. Terrorist attacks were launched on Israel, targeting civilians all throughout the mid 60's. Palestinian guerrillas continually attacked Israelis.

You say you don't like blockades, but it was the Egyptians supporting the PLO who blockaded Israel. Long story short, the US gave it's support to Israel, the USSR gave it's support to the other Middle East countries who were against Israel, and Israel won.

Israel didn't try to take land first, they were attacked first.

Click here and read for yourself.

quote:
The Left sides with the victim of aggression.


Let's see, you side with groups who use terrorist attacks against civilians, oppressive dictators such as Chavez, murderous radicals such as Che Guevara, just to name a few.

The reality is that the left seems to side with the most aggressive and violent groups in the world.
1967 War

http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html

...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."


"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.

And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997



"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."



"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 yrears



In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."

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