Israel Likes the F-35 So Much, It's Buying 17 More

US President Donald Trump was initially no fan of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which ended up being America's most expensive weapons project ever.

But Israel's been pretty happy with the new plane since taking possession of its first five such aircraft back in December 2016. In fact, Jerusalem is so pleased with what's called the "Adir" in Israel, that it's ordered an additional 17 F-35s to go with the original order of 33 planes, for a total fleet of 50 aircraft.

The planes will arrive in Israel as they are built, a process that will take several years. By 2021, Israel is expected to take possession of all 33 planes from the original order, and by 2024 the full 50-aircraft fleet will be deployed.

 

Here's video footage of Israel Air Force pilots testing the first F-35s to arrive late last year:

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/N...d/32267/Default.aspx

 

 

 

The stupidity of liberals, ability to ignore their ignorance

 

Original Post

The shine on the F35 may be fading because people have gotten a better idea about the performance and capabilities of the new 5th generation Russian fighters that the F35's will be going up against.  

I personally believe that the Air Force and design people are already well into design and planning for the 6th generation and even 7th generation fighters that will be in the future.  I believe that these fighters will be more likely to replace the pilots than at anytime before.  I think that when you get to those capabilities that many of them will be beyond what a pilot could be expected to take so I think that they may remote the pilot as is done in drones today but that it's possible that in the 7th generation fighters that AI will be fully implemented by then and it's possible that some computer or robot will be flying the future military aircraft.  I think it's just a matter of time before they start taking the pilot out of the equation either directly or indirectly.  Could be that the future pilot will just go along for the ride and for unforeseen circumstances so that they could take control over from the computer if necessary.

Russia doesn't have a good record of maintaining hardware, nor allowing pilots sufficient training time.

When they invaded portions of Georgia, a relatively large number of Russian fighters were shot down.  When US military investigated, the Georgian soldiers said they only shot down about half of the fighters.  The rest just fell out of the air and crashed. 

I don't know Dire, as I believe that the Russians have made great strives and increases in the last few years under Putin's reign.  I think that some of their advances would surprise several folks but then we've also made many technological advances.  The real question or unknown is China and what they have done.  Doesn't matter if you are talking about Russia or China though they both most likely copied and stole technology from the United States.  

What concerns me today, as compared to the days before World War II is our nations ability to turn what industry we have into a wartime status.  I don't think we would have the ability to produce the numbers of weapons that would be needed as we were able to do and ramp up to in World War II.  We have allowed far too much of our industry to be taken by oversea competitors.  Our steel production went to Japan and China along with electronics and most everything else.  I don't know if there is enough residual industry left in the United States to allow us to do that which we would need to do in a major conflict.  Then again technology plays a far larger part today than it ever has before.  I hope hope all that technological wizz bang gives us the needed advantages that it would need to.  

In a world where so many have Nuclear Weapons I wonder if there is a survivable World War in our future anyway.  I think the best way to win is to avoid war in the first place.

The major powers MAD philosophy.  Mutual Assured Destruction.

I don't believe N. Korea nor Iran view nuclear war in the same light as do the major powers.  I believe either one of them would go nuclear on one of their neighbors in a New York second.

Will the major powers stand down while they fight it out?  Last time Israel used F-16s on Iran.  Next time F-35s.

 

Glad to see Israelis going against the competition in middle east using our F-35's.

Wish we would hold our cards close to our chest and are working on Futuristic aircraft that will be flown in battle with smart enhancements allowing pilot-less capability. Aircraft, satellite controlled, by computer software having capabilities to maximize the extreme limits of aircraft, that humans may not be able to withstand physically.  With possible pilot interaction involving use of joy stick in Desert of USA, piloting aircraft in middle east. Similar to drones in use today.

One thing about Israel is that they usually take our technology and equipment and make it better and more lethal.  Conflicts between allies of Russia against allies of the US do allow our designers and leaders to get an idea of how well our technology and weapons perform in direct competition with the enemy.  So far we've done very well and the complete destruction of Iraq's Russian Tanks by our M1 Abrams tanks back in the 1990's sent Russian designers back to the drawing board fast and surely sent shock waves through the Kremlin as well as having China take notice.   Technology is great though but some idiot fire off a Nuke and technology is quickly voided and sent packing.  Let's just hope that our current Technology will be successful in intercepting any Nuke that North Korea might fire off. 

The doctrine of M.A.D. has been great to keep the large parties/Nations honest and in negotiations but as mentioned there are wild cards out there that endanger all of us.  North Korea account of pure insanity of it's way too young leader who surely is paranoid of many in his own regime and is unpredictable as to what he might do to remain in power.  Then, yes, you have the Mullahs or Religious nuts over in Iran that I propose are much more dangerous than the Insanity of the North Korean leader.  At least with North Korea you have China that might be able to achieve some restraint or control but with Iran you have people that honestly believe that with the use of Nuclear Weapons and a full unleashed Nuclear Attack be able to bring about the coming of their future Messiah/Mahdi.  The Islamic religion, or some parts of it, actually believe that if they start a Nuclear War with Israel that Allah (god) will then send the Mahdi to take over the war and bring the entire Earth to convert to Islam.  

The only similarity would be if Christians actually believed if they unleashed Nuclear Attacks against China or Russia that God would immediately intervene and take over the attack and stop all retaliatory responses from all opposing parties.  In this case, as with Iran, it is very likely that these idiots will feel and believe they are doing a religious thing by destroying Israel, or trying, and thus if they have the weapons it is very logical that they would actually be tempted to use them without any provocation. 

The other problem or trouble spot today is the conflict between two nuclear powers such as Pakistan and India over that small stretch of land over at Kashmir.  Both India and Pakistan, nuclear powers, feel and believe that they could achieve defeat over each other without sacrificing their own leadership and control.  That essentially is not the doctrine of M.A.D. but an actually mad (insane) thought and if actually they believe this then it is potentially a possibility that one of them would actually make a move on the other and only time would tell the outcome. 

As for the major players and M.A.D. I think that will continue to work just as long as calmer heads do not allow some 3rd party conflict to escalate to the point that unreasonable and crazy irrational decisions are made and things happen so fast calmer heads don't have time to intervene and stop something before a point of no return is passed.  There have been cases documented, in our past, even back to the 80's where a complete and total Russian retaliatory strike  was averted only because a single commander had some rational thinking capacity and realized that what every instrument and warning was telling him was wrong.  Russian early warning systems identified sun shining off satellites and other space debris as inbound missiles and a preemptive attack upon the Soviet Union (Russia).  He held off announcing the alarm and thus averted a disaster or complete attack from Russia on America.  It should be noted and understood that Russia has an all or none strategy whereby they don't launch a one for one response to an attack but would immediately launch a total strike using all of Russia's Nuclear arsenal against our Nation.  The though is that the policy would deter any thought by a US commander that they could achieve victory over Russia by taking out most of their capability or communications.  We would know that any attack would be met with a total launch of all their capabilities.  That is horribly dangerous given that humans do make mistakes.

 

 

budsfarm posted:

The major powers MAD philosophy.  Mutual Assured Destruction.

I don't believe N. Korea nor Iran view nuclear war in the same light as do the major powers.  I believe either one of them would go nuclear on one of their neighbors in a New York second.

Will the major powers stand down while they fight it out?  Last time Israel used F-16s on Iran.  Next time F-35s.

 

Iraq

 

budsfarm posted:
budsfarm posted:

The major powers MAD philosophy.  Mutual Assured Destruction.

I don't believe N. Korea nor Iran view nuclear war in the same light as do the major powers.  I believe either one of them would go nuclear on one of their neighbors in a New York second.

Will the major powers stand down while they fight it out?  Last time Israel used F-16s on Iran.  Next time F-35s.

 

Iraq

 

Actually had it not been for President Obama in the White House from 2008 to 2016 you might have been more accurate than you know.  We actually signed that dog/pig/horrendous agreement with Iran which actually had a side agreement that we would actually protect them from secret attack, or at least that's what I have heard.  I'd love to see some evidence of that but even if true I doubt it would shake many of the liberals out there for Obama was, is, and always will be King in their eyes.  I dare say Israel knew that Obama would stab them in the back and reveal any stealth or planned move against IRAN so they didn't go through with the plan that they had already conceived. 

What amazes me is, if I heard that right, Israel was going to use some Turkish air bases in their planned attack against Iran but again because of the distrust of the US all plans were scrappted.  I wonder how Trump would handle it?  I think I know and I think Iran knows as well.

direstraits posted:

The Saudis have made changes in their air defense systems to avoid shooting down planes from  Israel on their way to Iran.  

I see that Putin met with Netanyahu recently.  Guess Russia is having second thoughts about being friendly with the Persians.

I don't think with Trump as President there is as much a chance but if Hillary had won I don't know that it would be totally a surprise if Israel didn't get closer to Russia as America/USA surely has, under Obama, fallen away from Israel and deliberately more friendly toward Iran of all nations and other Muslim enemies of Israel.  With Trump being as pro Israel as he is I'm encouraged that this friendship will once again flourish and I think Iran might think twice about directly attacking Israel, or maybe they wont. 

Actually had it not been for President Obama in the White House from 2008 to 2016 you might have been more accurate than you know. - GB

I'm aware.  For 13 years in USAF SF, I kept my "drag bag" packed and practically lived and trained in MOPP Level 4.  You know, just in case one of the major powers wanted to get involved locally.  Not that that would ever happen even once.  Or was it twice or was it 3 times?

 

As for the major players and M.A.D. I think that will continue to work just as long as calmer heads do not allow some 3rd party conflict to escalate to the point that unreasonable and crazy irrational decisions are made and things happen so fast calmer heads don't have time to intervene and stop something before a point of no return is passed. - GB

No doubt all major powers / players have a war plan all mapped out based on what they think they can predict.  Problem is, the allies of Russia and China are so unpredictable.  That's a problem for them and for us.  Their choice is simple - back their ally or abandon them.  The US position must be whatever action Russia and China take, it is a diversion.  Or maybe not.

Like they say folks, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.  It all boils down to luck = where preparation meets opportunity.

 

I do agree!  Given the way that our hardware and military performed in both Gulf Wars against pretty substantial Russian equipment and some pretty decent trained military units (Republican Guards) and seeing the outcome I do believe gave the Russians pause and shook their confidence a bit.  That's one thing about the Gulf wars it did give our military a chance to try out some of our goodies even down to the MOAB to see how it woud perform.  That said though it's a shame how much of that equipment we left over in the desert for ISIS to grab and play around with and I'm sure the Russians and China got their share of equipment to analyze.  

The real funny thing was that Seal Team 6 raid into Pakistan to get Osama Bin Laden and how they flew in and out unopposed and (at least as far as we know) unidentified.  You gotta know that China and Russia paid dearly to get pieces of that blown up chopper that we left on the way out.  

Along with M.A.D. and what they think we might have along with the results of actual battle with our newer technology I think also gives the major players pause in contemplation of starting something with the US.   Then we have events like the Fitzgerald and the McCain which doesn't look too good.  Still though the battle results of our planes going up against their planes and our tanks against their tanks, etc, etc, etc, was greatly impressive in our favor.  For my part, while I am comforted, somewhat, I just hope that we never have to see major action with anyone.  If action does come down  against Iran or N. Korea I hope that we have enough evidence that China, and Russia, will reluctantly back away and caution N. Korea or Iran that they are on their own.

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