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Hi to my Forum Friends,

Our Forum Friend, Fine, tells us, "What I have said is Christians say 'something can't come from nothing' -- but turn around and say God just exist -- no explanation needed."

No, God does not just exist -- God was, is, and always will be PREEXISTING and ETERNAL. There is a difference -- and that difference is why He is God. John 1:1 tells us, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is the same "In the beginning" we find in Genesis 1:1 -- en arche in Greek (John 1:1), re'shiyth in Hebrew (Genesis 1:1) -- both referring to the beginning of our time. Everything prior to that was "preexisting" -- which tells us that both God the Father and Jesus Christ, God the Son, were preexisting when our time, creation, began. This is why we who are spiritually reborn know They are God.

I realize this is difficult for non-believers to grasp; often it is even difficult for believers. It is much like trying to understanding eternity and miracles.

Miracles I understand because I have experienced them in my own life and have seen them in the lives of others. I personally had a relatively large, black growth removed from my right temple -- in four days -- and only by the power of prayer.

The question one should be asking is, "Why did it take God four days to remove the growth? If it was a miracle; why did it not just disappear immediately?" Those are legitimate questions. The only answer I can give is to pose another question: "Why did it take God six days to create the heavens and the earth?" Answer: He was setting a standard for mankind -- work for six days and then allow both man and animals to rest for one day. Why my four days? Possibly to strengthen my faith.

The growth appeared very suddenly. My wife, Dory, and I were helping our pastor do Wednesday morning Bible studies at a seniors apartment complex. One of the men, Frank, had similar growths on his face and they were cancerous. The next week, I noticed the growth on my right temple -- large enough to frighten both Dory and me.

That night, I lay in bed, put my finger on the growth, and prayed that God would remove it. As I prayed, I felt a peaceful warmth come over me -- and I knew, beyond a doubt, that He had answered my prayer with a "Yes." I accepted this answer and rolled over and slept peacefully, knowing full well that the growth would be removed.

The first day, it was not removed, but it was a wee bit smaller. The second day, yet even smaller. And on the fourth day; it was gone, never to return again. I had faith in His "Yes" answer -- and He rewarded my faith.

To the person without spiritual discernment, without spiritual guidance, this sounds silly. Yet, for those of us who have the Holy Spirit within us; it is only God working.

Now, let us get back to understanding God being preexistent and to understanding eternity; both really the same. Try as I may, I cannot get my mind around "preexisting" or "eternity." Try this: think back in time, as far as you can; think of the largest number of years your mind can grasp -- how about 1 followed by a million zeroes. Can your mind grasp this large number? Mine cannot. Yet that large number of years, 1 followed by a million zeroes -- is only a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. Can my mind understand and grasp that? No. That is why we are told, in Ephesians 2:8-9, that "by grace through FAITH we are saved."

In the Bible, Hebrews chapter 11 is called by Christians the Honor Roll of Faith. It begins with, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible" (Hebrews 11:1-3).

This is telling us, that by faith, we know that the universe, the heavens and the earth, were made by God from nothing.

Pastor Chuck Smith, in his commentary "Genesis 1:1-8 (C2000 Series)" -- tells us: The word "created" is the Hebrew word "bara" which speaks of creating something out of nothing, a capacity that only God has. Man cannot "bara." We cannot, out of nothing, create something. We create with the idea of "asa," the Hebrew word "asa," which is the assembling together of existing materials. Now the word "asa" is used in much of the creative acts here in the book of Genesis, the assembling of an order from pre-existing materials. But the existing materials from which the things were assembled were originally created -- through "bara."

Hebrews 11 continues:

By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain,

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;

By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen,

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed,

By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive,

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau,

By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph,

By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel,

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,

By faith they (the Israelites) passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land;

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down,

By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient,

And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms,

So, my dear Friend, Fine, you can see that God does place a great deal of importance on FAITH. And, that is why we are told in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."


Then, you declare,"At least with believing what we now know as 'life' came from billions of years of change from a universe that 'just exists' makes more sense than a 6 thousand year old earth made from dirt by a supernatural being that was simply bored."

You believe in material proofs and the word of others who have gained knowledge of material things -- because you do not have the FAITH to believe in the God who created you. Because you cannot touch God, you refuse to believe Him. Yet, if you will only, by faith, turn to Him -- you will feel His touch in many ways.

Do I believe in an absolute 6000 year old earth? I do believe in the "young earth" teaching of the Bible; that the earth, and all creation, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6000, give or take a few thousand. The six thousand year old earth teaching was established by Bishop Ussher (1581-1656), an Irish theologian and scholar, and the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh, in what is now Northern Ireland.

Just an interesting, at least to me, side note: I have traced my genealogy back to my g-g-g-g-g-g grandfather who was born in England in 1580, then moved to Armagh in Northern Ireland in 1620, where he died in 1631. So, I find it interesting that he was living in Armagh; possibly worshiping with and under Bishop Ussher -- when Ussher was doing this research.

We are told that Bishop Ussher "began his calculation by adding the ages of the twenty-one generations of people of the Hebrew-derived Old Testament, beginning with Adam and Eve." There is great probability that some generations are left out of the Biblical genealogies; and that God has only given us what we need to establish Biblical lineages. So, even if some ten or fifteen generations are left out, which is highly unlikely to be that many, but, let's take it to this extreme. This would still only give us an error of maybe a few thousand years at most. This still keeps us well within the "young earth" time range.

Those who teach "old earth" beliefs base their millions and billions of years largely upon Carbon-14 dating of fossils. It has long been acknowledged by scientists that Carbon-14 dating only has an accuracy of thousands of years (fifty thousand at most). So, anything over that time frame is merely guessing or misinformation. With Carbon-14 dating, it is impossible to establish an age of millions or billions of years -- per scientific sources.

To read more on the life and work of Bishop Ussher in establishing his "young earth" teachings; click on the URL link below and read the full article:

Bishop James Ussher Sets the Date for Creation by Doug Linder (2004) http://www.law.umkc.edu/facult...s/scopes/ussher.html

The chronology first appeared in The Annals of the Old Testament, a monumental work first published in London in the summer of 1650. In 1654, Ussher added a part two which took his history through Rome’s destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The project, which produced 2,000 pages in Latin, occupied twenty years of Ussher’s life.

Ussher committed himself to establishing a date for Creation that could withstand any challenge. He located and studied thousands of ancient books and manuscripts, written in many different languages. By the time of his death, he had amassed a library of over 10,000 volumes.


Inspired by and building upon the work of Bishop Ussher, Sir Robert Anderson (1841 - 1918) concentrated more on the prophecies of the book of Daniel and other end times teachings.

Sir Robert Anderson and the Seventy Weeks of Daniel by Tom Stewart, January 14, 2000 http://www.whatsaiththescriptu...Robert.Anderson.html

The significance of Sir Robert Anderson's book, "The Coming Prince" (1895), should not be underestimated by modern students of Bible prophecy, in that Anderson not only ably defended Daniel's authorship of the Book of Daniel from the "scholarship" of unbelief of the Higher Criticism of his day, but he clearly established the historical accuracy of the fulfillment of the time oriented prophecy for the First Advent of the LORD Jesus Christ. "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself" (Daniel 9:24-26).


And, you will find more on Sir Robert Anderson's work at:

http://www.raptureready.com/resource/anderson/robert_anderson.html

Sir Robert Anderson was the chief inspector for Scotland Yard. He was greatly respected for his skill as an investigator. When Anderson wasn't writing on subjects related to crime, he wrote books on Christian prophecy. He helped establish the fact that 69 of Daniel's 70 weeks have now transpired, and that the tribulation will be the 70th week. Sir Robert Anderson's book, The Coming Prince, has become a foundational resource for all dispensationalists.


So, my Friend, YES, I believe in the preexisting, eternal God who was, who is, and who always will be. I believe in eternal life for all men; either with God in heaven, or with Satan in hell. I believe the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant Word of God; His User's Manual for mankind. I believe the Lord Jesus will come to Rapture His church, His people out of this earth. I believe there will be a seven year Tribulation in which billions of people will come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. I believe in His Millennial Kingdom on earth; where He, Jesus Christ, will rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem for one thousand years. I believe that He will then take all believers into eternity to live eternally with God.

I believe. And, that is what gives me an eternal edge over those who are still walking in spiritual darkness, still following the world.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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"There are two ways of looking at the world – through faith and superstition or through the rigours of logic, observation and evidence – in other words, through reason. Reason and a respect for evidence are precious commodities, the source of human progress and our safeguard against fundamentalists and those who profit from obscuring the truth. Yet, today, society appears to be retreating from reason"

http://richarddawkins.net/arti...VD,RichardDawkinsnet

DF
quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
"There are two ways of looking at the world – through faith and superstition or through the rigours of logic, observation and evidence – in other words, through reason. Reason and a respect for evidence are precious commodities, the source of human progress and our safeguard against fundamentalists and those who profit from obscuring the truth. Yet, today, society appears to be retreating from reason"

http://richarddawkins.net/arti...VD,RichardDawkinsnet

DF
Hi Deep,

Are you pimping now for Richard Dawkins? That web site is only a place to BUY his new DVD.

He already makes a fortune selling his books to other adoring atheists -- why should any Christian believer contribute to his skewed teachings?

Good try, Deep. Are you on commission?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Deep, the Law of Conservation of Mass is reason yet your religion (Atheism) doesn't account for it correct?


I pretty sure Atheism is not a religion, but rather the complete absence of belief in a supreme being (religion).
Hi DHS,

The federal courts ruled atheism a religion. You will have to argue with them about that. But, religion being a belief system; which is how it is defined -- it does not have to be a positive belief system; only a belief system. So, a negative belief such as atheism is still a religion. Only they have gods; where we have God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Deep, the Law of Conservation of Mass is reason yet your religion (Atheism) doesn't account for it correct?


I pretty sure Atheism is not a religion, but rather the complete absence of belief in a supreme being (religion).
Hi DHS,

The federal courts ruled atheism a religion. You will have to argue with them about that. But, religion being a belief system; which is how it is defined -- it does not have to be a positive belief system; only a belief system. So, a negative belief such as atheism is still a religion. Only they have gods; where we have God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, WAKE UP! The Supreme Court did not rule that atheism is a religion, that has been discussed on the TD forum before and you were proven wrong. Also, from the very definition of the word Atheism, it could not be called a religion. Atheism, is the absence of belief in a supreme being; thereofre, if one does not believe in a supreme being, one does not have "gods". So, just by your own post you have been proven wrong and trying to twist words and meanings. Can you really not see, that stuff like trying to twist other people's words to fit your agenda, is why alot of people turn away from Christianity?

Now, having said that, I will not have a battle of wits with you, as I believe it is wrong for me to engage an unarmed man. Good day!
Bill's lying again.

No court has said atheism is a religion. Courts have said that atheists have similar rights to religions and religious people. Big difference, we have discussed this, and Bill knows he's lying.

quote:
Only they have gods; where we have God.


Atheists have no gods. It's the definition of atheism. We have discussed this, as well, and Bill knows he's lying.

Earlier, Bill accused me of "pimping" for Richard Dawkins. I'm always happy to recommend his work. The DVD of which Bill spoke is indeed for sale, all the proceeds of which go to the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, not into Dawkins' pocket. There's no reason Bill should have know this, so it was a mistake, not a lie, but I predict he'll say it again. Then it will be a lie.

When did lying for jesus become so popular?

DF
Yes the Supreme rules that atheism is a religion "for legal purposes."

The ruling states that atheism is protected under the same constitutional clause as religion and NOT that atheism is a religion.

These kinds of complex issues are obviously lost within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist brain. It must be an evolutionary adaptation.

Either that or Bill Gray is a lying cheat.
Hi folks,

Deep and DHS seem to be offended because they have learned that they have a religion. So, just to get everyone on the same page; here is the article which tells us about the federal court ruling. Of course, our stubborn, head in the sand, atheist Friends will come up with some rationalization of why this ruling does not really apply to all atheists.

However, when the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said, "Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being" -- I am sure they would not want to risk excluding any other atheists. So, by our federal court ruling -- Atheism Is A Religion!

Check it out for yourself: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n...asp?ARTICLE_ID=45874

LAW OF THE LAND
Court rules atheism a religion

Decides 1st Amendment protects prison inmate's right to start study group
Posted: August 20, 2005, 1:00 am Eastern
WorldNetDaily.com

A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.

"Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.


I am truly sorry if our atheist Friends are insulted to find that they have a religion -- but, we cannot argue with our federal courts.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by MentalFloss:
Isn't the complete disbelief called agnostic?
Hi Floss,

No, atheism is the total rejection of God, believing that God does not exist. An agnostic is the one sitting on the fence, not sure if God is real or not; but, planning on making a decision which way to fall off the fence someday. Like Humpty Dumpty, there are trying to decide which side of eternity to fall into.

God bless, have a wonderful, blesse day,

Bill
Bill, the only thing that offends me is your blatant lying and ignorance. And guess what, Bill? You are wrong on another point, I AM NOT AN ATHEIST, although overbearing, irreverant, holier than thou people, much like yourself, is what makes me turn away from organized religion. People, who call themselves Christians and act as you do, hurt the cause of Christianity much more than you will ever hope to help.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
the Law of Conservation of Mass


PR, please educate yourself. This is an infamously inaccurate application of the law that is often used on the scientifically-illiterate Creationist audience.

A good place to start your education:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faq...-visit/bartelt8.html
Okay, Fish,

I visited your referenced web site and this is what I found:

Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins.

And, yet, I could not find, anywhere on this web site, the answer to the question: What is the origin of life?

Now, you would think that a web site devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins would surely have an answer to that question. The web site is devoted to the biological and physical origins and yet does not answer the question of the origin of life.

Fish, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell you REALLY cheap. Are you ready to buy it?

And, next I find on this web site:

Visitors to the archive should be aware that essays and FAQs appearing in the archive have generally not undergone a rigorous peer review procedure by scientific experts. Rather, they have been commented on and critiqued by the readership of the talk.origins newsgroup.

Gee, that really tells me that this web site is truly an authority on the biological and physical origins. Anyone, even Fish or Deep, can go on this web site and give their highly recognized opinions. I cannot imagine why no one on this highly authoritative web site has explained the biological and physical origins of life.

And, no where on this web site does it tell who these folks are or what credentials they possess which makes them authorities on biological and physical origins.

Sorry, Fish, you are spitting into the wind on this one.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86: Bill, the only thing that offends me is your blatant lying and ignorance. And guess what, Bill? You are wrong on another point, I AM NOT AN ATHEIST, although overbearing, irreverant, holier than thou people, much like yourself, is what makes me turn away from organized religion. People, who call themselves Christians and act as you do, hurt the cause of Christianity much more than you will ever hope to help.
Hi DHS,

Well, there is an old saying, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck -- most likely you have found yourself a duck."

You tell me, "although overbearing, irreverant, holier than thou people, much like yourself, is what makes me turn away from organized religion"

DHS, anyone can find an excuse to not go to church. Why, even old Deep Fish could give you one or two. The point is that there is one very good reason to attend church: GOD!

He created you; He loves you; He wants you to bring the kids and come visit -- and not just on Christmas and Easter.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, anyone who believes that a talking snake lured Eve to seduce Adam into eating a piece of fruit forbidden by an anthropomorphic deity who then gave us hereditary sin, that the universe is only 6000 years old plus or minus a few thousand, sped up the rate of radioactive decay and causes genetic abnormalities due to sin is not, frankly, worthy of consideration on any topic outside of group therapy or a psychiatrist's couch.

People have coddled you long enough. You are exhibiting the habits of a madman, in my opinion. You are one step short of out right delusion, if not there, already. That is my opinion. I collect crazy people. I enjoy their company as a rule, but not your kind, I fear that you may have an arsenal and decide to become Travis Bickle or worse.

Your religion as you present it is not worthy of most of the "Amens" it gets from your fellow travelers in the Land of Funny Fundamentalism. Your theology is like a comic book. Your "apology techniques" are more likely to alienate than anything else, other than get a hearty amen from your equally-challenged supported and a hearty "WTF? Is this guy serious?" from most Christians or not.

This is not orthodox Xianity at all, rather some heterodox hodgepodge of silly Biblical Literalists' creation.

Then to trump matters, if this is possible, you mix politics, religion as you define it, and science all in one neat jumble that is just shy of lunatic ravings.

You can thump on and quote the Bible all day long, as Satan can also.

Were I to put out a Hughes interlinear reference Bible, as did Scofield, I would have half the local deranged thinking my notes were the veritable Word of God! I could put in The Cat in the Hat or Moll Fladers, and you would be ranting against Thing 1 and Thing 2 as well as women marrying their half-brothers and not telling him . . .well, maybe that second part isn't so bad, but you catch my drift don't you.

You constantly offer up prayer for those who do not deem Billvation worthy of their time, yet it is you who needs prayer and a nice quiet place for rest and only the Gospels for reading and NO Isiah, Daniel, and certainly no Rev.! Have you gone to seek sacramental absolution and counseling from a priest as I recommended a while ago? I think it might help a lot.

Once again, Fundamentalists are fine, in their chapels and not acting up in public, in other words, so long as they act like Episcopalians or Methodists or Roman Catholics or Reform Jews in public. To do otherwise is really pushing the "delicate boundary between madness and fanaticism" -- as I see it, anyhow! Plus, think of any horses or children on the streets! Think of the horses!
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun: Light years ahead of Creationism.
Hi Miami,

This is the beauty of living in America where the First Amendment allows both you and me to worship as we desire.

You can worship in your Church of Atheism on YouTube to your heart's desire.

I will worship in my Christian fellowship since it so pleases my heart.

And, in the end -- we both will be eternal, immortal souls. The only difference will be our eternal destination. You see, before we leave this world, we obtain our passport and ticket. My ticket will be on the Glory Train. The only ticket I see available from the Church of Atheism -- is to ride with the Hell's Angels.

You might want to reconsider; the Glory Train is much more comfortable. You might say it is eternally more comfortable.

Sure hope I see you in the seat next to me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Hi to our Forum Friends,

Besides the fact that we have been told by our Forum Friend, Neal, that, although we are all stupid and thumpers -- he still likes to have us around. I guess that is so that all we stupid thumpers can bow and worship his holy intelligence, Neal.

Now, his holy intelligence has made new proclamations that we must adhere to -- or really be stupid thumpers.

First, Neal tells us, "This is not orthodox Xianity at all,. . ."

Neal wears the hat of an Episcopalian Christian; although I am sure that most Episcopalians have already asked him to turn in his library card. I seriously doubt that any other Episcopalians would replace Jesus Christ with an "X" -- as our Friend continues to do. So, I guess we can label Neal an Episcopalian only in the sense that he has a library card stamped Episcopalian -- but, certainly not for any Christian fruit which he might have ever displayed -- and, Neal, that is CHRISTianity -- not Xianity.

Then, Neal tells us, "Were I to put out a Hughes interlinear reference Bible, as did Scofield, I would have half the local deranged thinking my notes were the veritable Word of God!"

God help us; Neal is going to put out his own Bible. But, not to worry. He will include notes for "we local deranged" folks. By the way, I am sure he is speaking of all we "stupid thumpers" -- which is his definition of we lowly TimesDaily Forum Members. But, when we can read the highly intellectual Neal Bible -- we will be freed from the bondage of conservative Christianity and of being stupid thumpers.

And, to make it easier for we stupid thumpers and local deranged folks to understand his new Neal Bible, he explains it further for us. After all, we are such stupid thumpers and so deranged that we will not understand by ourselves. After all, we are not equal to "his holy intelligence."

Holy Neal tell us, "You constantly offer up prayer for those who do not deem Billvation worthy of their time, yet it is you who needs prayer and a nice quiet place for rest and only the Gospels for reading and NO Isiah, Daniel, and certainly no Rev.!"

So, our new Neal Bible will contain only the four gospels. There will be no Isaiah, no Daniel, no Revelation; none of the prophets, books of law, or books of Biblical history. After all, the Neal Bible does not need all those -- Neal will just fill in all the gaps with tradition and rituals.

But, wait a minute. Doesn't it tell us in Revelation 22:18-19, "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

Neal, aren't you are risking the plagues and being removed from the tree of life? Oh, no, I forgot. You have deleted the book of Revelation from your Neal Bible. So, what it tells the rest of us is not valid.

Okay, folks, stay on the alert for the new Neal Bible so that you can eliminate all the books of the Bible which do not suit Neal's lifestyle.

Finally, Neal tells me, "Have you gone to seek sacramental absolution and counseling from a priest as I recommended a while ago? I think it might help a lot."

Neal, my Friend, I have one major problem. You see, the Bible which I still read (only because I do not yet have my Neal Bible) tells me, in 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

That tells me that, while I respect and like Father George, Pastor John, etc., -- the only person I go to for prayer and salvation is Jesus Christ.

Your "sacramental absolution" is a man-made ritual which is not found anywhere in the Bible. Wikipedia tells us about absolution:

Absolution is an integral part of the sacrament of penance and reconciliation. The penitent makes a sacramental confession of all mortal sins to a priest and prays an act of contrition. The priest then assigns a penance and offers absolution in the name of the Trinity, on behalf of the Church.

ON BEHALF OF THE CHURCH! Are you kidding me? We are the church -- and I cannot give absolution, forgiveness, or eternal life to anyone. I can tell everyone about Jesus Christ. I can tell everyone about the Gospel. I can tell everyone about salvation. But, you, me, all other Christians -- the church -- cannot do anything else. We, the church, cannot forgive sins; we cannot absolve anyone of a wrong they have done; we cannot give them a penance to do that will free them of their sin -- except we can tell them to repent, turn from their sin, and follow Jesus. That is follow Jesus -- not another man, not a priest, not an archbishop or pope -- only following Jesus will get a person into eternal life. For He is the ONLY Way (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who can absolve, forgive, and save anyone.

John 6:35, "Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

John 14:6, [i]"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."


These Scripture verses tell me that I am to believe in and go to one person -- not a priest, not a pastor, not my wife, not my friend -- Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

Neal, you can practice all the rituals, traditions, and other man-made regulations you want -- or whatever makes you feel spiritual. However, the one and only way to be saved, to be a Christian believer, is to follow Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ. All other is folly; any other way is deceit; any other path is a path to destruction.

So, Neal, my Friend, although you exalt yourself, although you worship at the altar of Neal's intelligence -- I pray that one day you will recognize Jesus Christ as the only one to be exalted -- and that you will turn away from all your intelligence, your rituals, your traditions, and turn to follow Him, Him alone.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Dole:
MATTHEW 10:29-30

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Hi Bob,

Isn't this a wonderful promise? Is it not fantastic to know that He loves us that much; that He even knows the number of hairs on our head.

But, then, being the Creator, why would He not know?

I sure am happy I am on his team -- and not on the Darwin/Dawkins/Hitchens losing team.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by DeepFat:
Reminds me of a song. Goes a little like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNz55M3hpOk

DF
Hi Deep,

Thank you so much for pointing me to that link. That group was good. But, one even better with the same song is the Crimson River Quartet. They are a great Southern Gospel group and are from here in Southern California.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...oafU&feature=related

While you are on this YouTube page; you might want to scroll down and find the Crimson River Quartet song: When He Was On The Cross

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ZnRA&feature=related

The words go like this: When He was on the cross; I was on His mind.

Isn't that comforting to know?

Once again, Deep, thank you for this link.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
Rowan Williams ain't turned me in yet, O holy Unutterable Digrammaton (Bet Lamed)! I merely thought that seeking absolution for heresy might help you.

How is that woman in Santa Ana with the pink wigs and the husband with tan in a can and the faux Versace shirts doing? You ever run down there and see a healing?

You know good and well that Tribulating and Raputuring are new things that an old coot named Darby cooked up and then fellow tin foil hat (probably derbys then) wearers latched onto, as it made their drab lives seem "special," and allowed them to ignore the Example and Word of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for their fetishes. Add in the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, fears of impending doom from the nuclear might of the US and USSR, and voila, the stage was set for the Head Snakeoil Salesman, Hal Lindsey, followed in rapid succession with his brothers and sisters in outstretched hands for the gullible to fleece, like Hagee, and Robertson, and there you got it. A racket. Add in Republican politicians not laughing in their faces as they were 40 years ago, when they found out that gays and tribulation paid better than mere segregation and Robert is your father's brother.

We end up with people like Hagee being taken seriously, Rod Parsley, and the woman in a pink wig and others actually accorded the status of "religious leaders" instead of the frauds and vermin they are.

Men in white wigs or a woman in a pink one: which will you choose?
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Dole:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Is it not fantastic to know that He loves us that much; that He even knows the number of hairs on our head.

Confused Sounds like OCD to me.

If we shave it all off, do you think that'll give him enough spare time to help some amputees?
Hi Bob,

Good idea; maybe He will have time for the "spiritually deficient" also.

Would you like an appointment?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Dole:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Would you like an appointment?

No thanks, Bill.

Tell him I'll gladly accept my sentence to Hell if he'll spend any of his precious time helping innocents who suffer needlessly.

You kiss his feet enough for both of us anyway. I'll just have my moles removed the old fashioned way, I guess.
Hi Bob,

Not a problem, at least for me. We all make our own decisions -- and then live with them.

But, man, eternity is a long time to have to realize that you made the wrong decision.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Once again, I offer you all my findings of the literary of the dogma of "Rapture" in the English language. Here are the earliest works still held by major libraries:

Database: WorldCat


Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 1 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Title: The rapture of the church, or, Are any events to be expected before the rapture of the church?
Author(s): Parnell, John Vesey, Sir, 1805-1883.
Publication: London : William Yapp,
Edition: 3rd ed.
Year: 1857
Description: 15 p. ; 18 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Second Advent.
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Note(s): Caption title./ Signed: C.; Attributed to John Vesey Parnell./ "Hunt and Elliott, Printers, Titchborne Street, Edgware Road."-- Colophon.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT887
Other Titles: Are any events to be expected before the rapture of the church?
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19940309
Update: 20040305
Accession No: OCLC: 29933569
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 4 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Govett, Robert,max: 3
Title: The saints' rapture to the presence of the Lord Jesus :
with appendix, in refutation of Dr. Cumming's tract, entitled "The pope the man of sin" /
Author(s): Govett, Robert, b. 1813.
Publication: London : James Nisbet,
Year: 1852
Description: x, 357 p. : ill. ; 18 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Antichrist.
Named Person: Cumming, John, 1807-1881. Pope the man of sin.
Title Subject: Bible. N.T. Thessalonians, 2nd, II -- Criticism, interpretation, etc.
Note(s): Includes bibliographical references.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT827; Dewey: 236.9
Responsibility: by R. Govett.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19941005
Update: 20080614
Accession No: OCLC: 31228147
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 11 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Trotter, William,max: 12
Title: Essays on prophetic interpretation /
Author(s): Trotter, William, 1818-1865.
Publication: Glasgow : R.L. Allan ; London : Geo. Morrish,
Year: 1800-1899?
Description: 141 p. ; 17 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Millennium (Eschatology)
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Messiah -- Prophecies.
Title Subject: Bible -- Hermeneutics.
Bible. N.T. -- Relation to the Old Testament.
Note(s): Includes bibliographical references.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT890
Responsibility: by William Trotter.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19880215
Update: 20080423
Accession No: OCLC: 17474067
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 3 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Darby, J. N.max: 130
Title: The rapture of the saints, and the character of the Jewish remnant :
shewing the position which the scriptures give to the remnant in Israel in the latter day, in prophecy, in the psalms, and in the New Testament : and the rapture of the saints gathered by the Holy
Ghost sent down from heaven before the tribulation of the last days /
Author(s): Darby, J. N. 1800-1882. (John Nelson),
Publication: London : George Morrish,
Year: 1800-1899?
Description: 58 p. ; 17 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Remnant (Theology)
Class Descriptors: LC: BT887
Responsibility: by J.N. Darby.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19940311
Update: 20080610
Accession No: OCLC: 29948938
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 1 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Works2,725
Title: The Lord cometh :
events in heaven and on earth : the rapture, the revelation, the Kingdom, and the eternal glory /
Uniform Title: Works. 1800
Author(s): McCormick, J. H.
Publication: [Lisburn, Northern Ireland : s.n.,
Year: 1800s
Description: 1 v. (various pagings) ; 17 cm.
Language: English
Contents: When the Lord Himself comes -- The resurrection "from" the dead and the redemption of the body -- The Father's house and events therein -- Christian service rewarded at the
Judgment seat of Christ -- The marriage supper of the Lamb -- Left behind when Jesus comes -- The great tribulation -- The Saviour's absence in heaven -- From monarchy to democracy -- The seventy
weeks -- He is coming as--? -- The coming superman -- Events in the east -- Events in Europe -- Witness for God in dark days -- The coming destruction of His foes -- When the King returns -- The
little season -- The Kingdom glories -- The great white throne.
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Eschatology.
Second Advent.
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Class Descriptors: LC: BT821
Other Titles: When the Lord comes
Responsibility: by J.H. McCormick.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19980924
Update: 20030110
Accession No: OCLC: 39926665
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then, it is up to you to decide between nearly 2000 years of apostolic faith or a johnny come lately snake oil salesman like Darby.
Hi Neal,

Okay, you have proven you are a wonderful librarian. But, your library references make me appreciate JJPAUL and his URL postings. And, I never would have believed I could say that.

Go back to your hate diatribes and intelligence pontifications. They are more entertaining.

I think we all get the idea: you do not believe in the Rapture nor the Tribulation. So be it. We will all know the truth on the way up -- or down.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Attacking the messenger rather than the message, O holy unutterable Digrammaton (Bet Lamed)?

You don't dare to question the sources' recent origins, so you?

Why were no books published on the subject prior to the mid 1800s? If it is that make-or-break in theology, one would assume that there would be a plethora of them from the Reformation onward, would they not?

Such things are not of my ken, yet I would daresay that they affect not a whit my relationship with the holy catholic and apostolic church and Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

By the way, Billaume, the abbreviation of X is not in one whit blasphemous. A variation of it is on most Christian altars around the world, "IHS" for "Iesus Homo. Salv." "Jesus Saviour of Men". The Greek version is IXC for Jesus (I) Xpictoc (Christ). XP (Chi Rho) is the ancient abbreviation for Christ the King that Constantine had painted on his shields, after having seen "In hoc signo vinces" (You will conquer in this sign) in his vision, or so the hagiographies tell us.

But that is not germane to tribulating, and your Darbyite dash of Isiah, smidgen of Daniel, and heaping shovelful of Revelation, now is it?
Hi Neal,

You have pretty much defined the difference between you and the Christian walk when you state so strongly: "Such things are not of my ken, yet I would daresay that they affect not a whit my relationship with the holy catholic and apostolic church and Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

In your mind, and in your theology, you place "my relationship with the holy catholic and apostolic church" ahead of your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind that He teaches us, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6). This tells me that I am saved through and by Jesus -- not the church, not any church.

You need to realize that the CHURCH is the body of believers. It is not a building; it is not an organization; it is not a corporation -- it is the body of Christian believers -- the bride of Christ. We do not worship the church -- we are the church.

Once more, look at Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

What does this passage tell us?

By grace: God's favor or kindness, His mercy, which we do not merit and have not earned -- yet, through love, He offers this to us. Titus 3:5 tells us, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy. . ."

You have been saved through faith: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Faith in what? Faith in Jesus Christ; faith in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ; faith that Jesus' death on the cross defeated Satan; faith that Jesus' resurrection assured our resurrection into eternity -- faith in the only name by which we can be saved, Jesus Christ.

Not of yourself: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment" (Isaiah 64:6). We can never be righteous enough on our own to get into heaven.

It is the gift of God:[b] "For the wages of sin is death, but [b]the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). If a gift is not free; it is not a gift. If the gift is not accepted; it is lost.

Not as a result of works: Jesus has already done all the work. There is absolutely nothing you or I can do to earn our salvation. There is no work, nothing we can do that is righteous enough to earn us salvation. If you were to stand before God today and He asked you, "Why should I let you into heaven?" -- what would you say? Works cannot get you into heaven. Rituals cannot get you into heaven. Tradition cannot get you into heaven. Then how can you get into heaven? Only be receiving the Free Gift of Salvation already "paid in full" by Jesus Christ.

So that no one may boast: Jesus Christ paid your sin debt in full; He paid your ransom in full. All you have to do is to accept this "paid in full" ransom and walk out of your worldly prison. Why did He do this? Because, no matter how much we try, you and I cannot pay our sin debt. If you or I could do this -- we might feel that we were as God. And, that is what brought down Satan; he wanted to be as God -- and he will spend eternity in the lake of fire. As Isaiah 64:6 tell us, ". . .our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment"

So, no Neal, we do not place any church, any organization, any rituals or traditions, any persons -- before Jesus Christ.

In Acts 4:12, we are told that nothing and no one else can save us -- not the church, not a Pope or Archbishop, not a priest, not Mary nor any other saint, no liturgy, no traditions -- nothing and no one except Jesus Christ can save us: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Neal, I pray that you can put aside your hatred of the Bible and of all Christian believers -- humble yourself before the Lord -- and find peace in Him (Romans 5:1). It is not your Episcopalian church which can save you; it is only Jesus Christ.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Have to back Neal up on one point - X and IHS are both used as Christian symbols.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

Usage of X for Christ (Excerpts from wikipedia article)
The word "Christ" and its compounds, including "Christmas", have been abbreviated for at least the past 1,000 years, long before the modern "Xmas" was commonly used. "Christ" was often written as "XP" or "Xt"; there are references in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle as far back as 1021 AD. This X and P arose as the uppercase forms of the Greek letters χ and ρ), used in ancient abbreviations for Χριστος (Greek for "Christ"), and are still widely seen in many Eastern Orthodox icons depicting Jesus Christ. The labarum, an amalgamation of the two Greek letters rendered as ☧, is a symbol often used to represent Christ in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christian Churches.[2]
The Greek letter Chi Χ stood for "Christ" in the ancient Greek acrostic ΙΧΘΥΣ ichthys

In ancient Christian art, χ and χρ are abbreviations for Christ's name.[4] In many manuscripts of the New Testament and icons, X is an abbreviation for Christos, as is XC (the first and last letters in Greek, using the lunate sigma); compare IC for Jesus in Greek. The Oxford English Dictionary documents the use of this abbreviation back to 1551, 50 years before the first English colonists arrived in North America and 60 years before the King James Version of the Bible was completed. At the same time, Xian and Xianity were in frequent use as abbreviations of "Christian" and "Christianity"; and nowadays still are sometimes so used, but much less than "Xmas".

And from another site:
http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/ihs.htm
The IHS monogram is an abbreviation or shortening of Jesus' name in Greek to the first three letters. Thus ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, ιησυς (iēsus, "Jesus"), is shortened to ΙΗΣ (iota-eta-sigma), sometimes transliterated into Latin or English characters as IHS or ΙΗC.
The symbol is said to appear rarely in the catacombs, only in the catacomb of Priscilla and the atrium of the Capella Græca (Greek Chapel).1 It was popularized in the fifteenth century, however, by Franciscan disciple Bernadine of Sienna as a symbol of peace. In 1541 St. Ignatius Loyola adopted the symbol with three nails below and surrounded by the sun as the seal of the Jesuit order.
Contrary to some authors, the monogram originally stood for neither for Iesus Hominum Salvator ("Jesus Savior of Men") nor for "In His Service." Some attribute its origin to Constantine's vision, where he saw a cross with the inscription "In hoc signo vinces" ("in this sign you shall conquer,"2 which is abbreviated, according to them, as IHS. However, this seems to require a stretch, as do claims that it is really a pagan symbol.3 The simplest explanation, as an abbreviation of Jesus' name, is best.
Once again, you put words in my mouth, you aelf-appointed holy wolf in sheep's clothing!
Never have I said that the belief in any dogma is necessary for salvation, nor is membership in the Anglican Communion.

You still fail to address the origin of your beloved rapture and tribulation when scholars tell us that these were a warning for the persecutions yet to come to the ancient church under the Roman law and fickleness of Emperors, not some a script for the end of the world! The verses out of Daniel and Isiah were a warning for the destruction of the Jewish nation which was nearly made done under first Babylon, then perfected under Syro-Hellenes then completed almost to a man under Rome in 77 AD.

The things that are important in Xity are the words of Our Lord Himself, His example, and the orthodox faith, which has endured for nearly 2000 years in the Creeds of the Church and the unbroken line of apostolic succession of our bishops, whether they originated in Lyon or Rome or Canterbury or St. David's or Baghdad or Alexandria.

You still will not discuss the currency of rapture and tribulation, holding it to have always been part of the Xian faith, which is simply not true! Even Augustine called for a symbolic reading of Revelation!

Do you deny the efficacy of the sacraments given to us and commanded to us for continuing by Our Lord? Do you think that dogma trumps doctrine?

Do pink-wigged women trump men in dalmatics and albs and sackcloth robes of a friar?

What has the charming little chapel of which your boast done for world hunger or social justice? Ever heard of OxFam? Ever heard of Catholic Charities or the Melanesian Brothers or the Sisters of Mercy?

One final thought, actually a question: do you believe in witchcraft as it is commonly supposed to be; that is a person selling their soul in return for the power of incantations and spells and charms to affect the wellbeing of others and/or themselves?

If you believe that birth defects are rooted in sin, then I daresay that is far from a stretch for you!

Take your dispensations, your rapture and tribulation as fact and your 6000 year old earth for a vacation and see what is going on in the world around you, even in the Most Serene Christian Republic of Southern California, or has it reverted to secular status these days?

p.s. I know the Bible as well as most, and don't need a sermon from a person who needs a sermon read to him until it kicks into his "kicked in the head by a mule as a boy" noggin.

p.p.s. Who cares about the Raptution? I don't. Can it be stopped or slowed? Sped up? Is it even "real" or a literary device? Maybe a money making one, actually, as those charlatans like Hal Lindsey have sure made a lot of money off of the gullible!

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