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"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

 

Someone falsely spins the tale that this verse which he takes out of context

will guarantee the person Heaven no matter of what sins they would be guilty.

Actually the 6th chapter of John is the discourse of the bread of life. there's

nothing in this chapter or the entire Bible for that matter supports OSAS.

 

John 6: 41-55

Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.

 

[41] The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the

living bread which came down from heaven.

[42] And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and

mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven?

[43] Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among

yourselves.

[44] No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me,

draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day.

[45] It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every

one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.

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[44] Draw him: Not by compulsion, nor by laying the free will under any

necessity, but by the strong and sweet motions of his heavenly grace.

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[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath

seen the Father.

[47] Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life.

[48] I am the bread of life.

[49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead.

[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat

of it, he may not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

[52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I

will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

[53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this

man give us his flesh to eat?

[54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you

eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have

life in you.

[55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life:

and I will raise him up in the last day.

-----------

[54] Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood: To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence, life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. 58. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

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Many don't agree with what Jesus is teaching and that's alright, just don't

go for the OSAS side of it.

 

 

 

Original Post

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."

Someone falsely spins the tale that this verse which he takes out of context will guarantee the person Heaven no matter of what sins they would be guilty.

__________
Didn't you know? Once you're OSAS, you should lose the ability to ever sin again, but if you do, you're covered. 

Hi all,

 

My Friend, Vic, is determined to force the Eucharist INTO Scripture (eisegesis) -- for he and his church cannot read it FROM Scripture (exegesis).   And, my dear Friend tries to camouflage his real purpose by introducing many Scripture verse before and after John 6:47 -- and tossing in comments about OSAS.  

 

Please keep in mind that the events in John 6 did not happen in Jerusalem where Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper (Communion).   The first event in John 6, the feeding of the 5000, happened on the eastern bank of the Sea of Galilee.  And, the event which the Roman Catholic church tries to use to force the Eucharist into Scripture happens the next day when Jesus had traveled to Capernaum on the western bank of the Sea of Galilee.

 

Both of these events happened MONTHS before the Passover Meal in the Upper Room IN JERUSALEM -- when Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper -- and when He left us with this instruction,"Do this in remembrance of Me"  (Luke 22:19).

 

So, first, let's lay the Eucharist to rest:

 

David Guzik:  Study Guide for John 6
http://www.blbclassic.org/comm...fo=31&topic=John

 

John 6:47-59:  The true bread from heaven.

 

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.  I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  I am the living bread which came down from heaven.  If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.  'The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"'

 

Then Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.  Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.  For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.  As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.  This is the bread which came down from heaven; not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead.  He who eats this bread will live forever.'  These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

 

a. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live foreverJesus spoke in a figure of speech.  The metaphor of eating and drinking was common in Jesus' day, and pointed to a taking within one's innermost being.

 

i. Some have taken these words more literally, and applied them to communion.  From this, the Eastern Orthodox practices the custom of infant communion.  They believe infants will not be saved unless they partake in communion.

 

b. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are deadThe spiritual bread Jesus offers is even greater than the manna Israel ate in the wilderness, because "eating" the (spiritual) bread from heaven Jesus offers brings eternal life.

 

c. He who eats this bread will live forever:  Jesus offers us heavenly bread for eternal life, but we must eat it.  Faith in Jesus is not compared with tasting or admiring, but with eating.  We must dig in!  Jesus says that we must have Him within us, and we must partake of Him.

 

Let's examine that last sentence:  "Jesus says that we must have Him within us, and we must partake of Him."

 

What happens when a person becomes a Christian believer?  The moment that person receives Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and Savior -- the Holy Spirit indwells and seals that person (Ephesians 1:13) and that seal is not broken in this lifetime (Ephesians 4:30).

 

So, that alone explains both the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of "once saved, always saved."  When we take Jesus Christ within us (which the Roman Catholic church claims is every day in the Eucharist) -- the Holy Spirit takes up residence within us, i.e., Jesus Christ is within us!   Just as He is within ALL believers.

 

We are indwelled and sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit.  That seal cannot be broken in this life (Ephesians 4:30, John 10:27-29).  That is "eternal security" -- aka, "once saved, always saved."

 

In conclusion, yes, John 6:47 does indeed say that the believer "HAS eternal life."  And, John chapter 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Communion, the Lord's Supper, or the Roman Catholic Eucharist.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Lord's Supper -2a

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Last edited by Bill Gray
quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

The sad part is billie-je can't refute the Bible or the earliest writing of the Church.  It's what the Father wanted and it is what it is.

Vic, my Friend,

 

We have finally solved the mystery.  Now, we KNOW why you are a pseudo-Roman Catholic!

 

I gave you a fairly complete Biblical explanation of why the Eucharist, or even the Lord's Supper -- IS NOT found in John 6.

 

And, the ONLY response you can give -- is that weak, childish prattle above.  

 

So, how did YOU become Roman Catholic?   You needed a "religion" which would wind you up in the morning, download a dump of false, unBiblical teachings into your head cavity -- and point you toward the door.   YOU, my Friend, are a perfect example of "Religion By Rote!"

 

Even a child in elementary school can give a better response than what you typically offer. 

 

The most intelligent thing you ever seem to offer -- are your PERIODS!

 

Bless your little PERIOD heart!

 

Bill

 

Bible Ignorance - Satan's Weapon

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Bill DHL™ in his misreading of the Bible believes that a ghost inhabits your body once you are "saved".  Just one of many examples of bad translation used by wacko fundamentalists. 

 

Johhny No Cred's hate of all thing Catholic drives him to inconsistency and hypocrisy with regard to the Eucharist.  If he takes the Bible literally as he claims, then he must embrace the Catholic interpretation of the matter in this regard.  His only argument against the Catholic interpretation requires Jesus to contradict himself - something Bill DHL™ is quite willing to embrace.  In fact, as far as I can tell, Jesus is just another guy as far as he is concerned.  Who cares what he says, right?

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

You gave nothing but erroneous interpretations and lies.  You prove nothing and you refute nothing.  Refute is a big word with you, too bad it has never worked for you.

Vic, my Friend,

 

And, YOU call THIS -- intelligent refutation of what I wrote?   That might work on the third grade playground where you are testing who can spit the farthest.  But, in the adult world where males are supposed to wear long pants and speak somewhat semi-intelligently -- it just does not fit.

 

My Friend, maybe you should go back and take some Adult Catechism lessons on how to participate in a civil dialogue -- and how to defend your religion.

 

Bless your young heart!

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray

 

billie said

My Friend, maybe you should go back and take some Adult Catechism lessons on how to participate in a civil dialogue -- and how to defend your religion.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wish you to refute John, Paul and an early church writer.

 

Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 - 110 AD)

 

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 - 110 AD)

 

John 6: 26-33

26 Jesus answered them and said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, you are

looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves

and were filled.

 

27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for

eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father,

God, has set his seal."

 

28 So they said to him, "What can we do to accomplish the works of God?"

 

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you

believe in the one he sent."

 

30 So they said to him, "What sign can you do, that we may see and believe

in you? What can you do?

 

31 Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: 'He gave them

bread from heaven to eat.'"

 

32 So Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses

who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread

from heaven.

 

33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives

life to the world."

 

1 Cor 11: 23-29

23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord

Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,

 

24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that

is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

 

25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new

covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

 

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the

death of the Lord until he comes.

 

27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily

will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

 

28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

 

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and

drinks judgment on himself.

 

Just tell me what these verses mean

Vic, my Friend,

 

Glad to have this dialogue with you.

 

John 6:26, "Jesus answered them and said, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled.'"

 

Here, Jesus was pointing out to them that they had followed Him to Capernaum because they were part of the miracle of feeding the 5000 the day before.  They were looking at Him, not as the Messiah, but as a miracle worker through which they could get material blessings.

 

John 6:31-33, "Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"   (32) So Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.   (33) For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.'"

 

Jesus Christ is reminding them that God had sent Manna from heaven to feed them physically -- but, He, Jesus Christ, was the Spiritual Bread, sent from heaven to give them eternal spiritual life.

 

1 Corinthians 11: 23-24, "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, (24) and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, 'This is my body that is for you.  Do this in remembrance of me.'"

 

Once again, He tells us to take the Lord's Supper - IN REMEMBRANCE OF HIM - not to be having Him for lunch or dinner.

 

And, once again, the event in John 6 transpired in Capernaum, not Jerusalem -- months BEFORE He instituted the Lord's Supper -- in Jerusalem.   And, in 1 Corinthians 11, He commands believers to  partake in the Lord's Supper -- "in remembrance of Me." 

 

And, there you have it, my Friend.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Lord's Supper -2a

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OK billie, I read the same thoughts you always tell, and I don't mean this

in a bad way, well maybe I do, but you either can't help lying or you're

too dense to comprehend. Maybe it's both. If you still see symbolic between

all those trying to explain it to you then there's no hope for you. You think

Jesus was joking...??? Paul, John, Matthew the others.   

Vic, my Friend,

 

I respond to your post with Biblical answers.  And, all you can offer in rebuttal is childish prattle.  That does not speak well of your religion nor of your knowledge of God and His Bible.

 

Are YOU here just to argue and defame anyone who disagrees with you?  Or are you here for serious dialogue?  From virtually all your responses, it appears to be the former.   Whatever, it is fun to talk with children also.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 - Bible_Open-FAMILY-GROW

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

 

I respond to your post with Biblical answers.  And, all you can offer in rebuttal is childish prattle.  That does not speak well of your religion nor of your knowledge of God and His Bible.

 

Are YOU here just to argue and defame anyone who disagrees with you?  Or are you here for serious dialogue?  From virtually all your responses, it appears to be the former.   Whatever, it is fun to talk with children also.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I said what I said billie because there's nothing else to say. You have

repeated yourself incessantly without a point except your opinion which

doesn't hold any value with the Bible. You can't comprehend any of it or

you just don't want to, which is it?

 

 

quote:  Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,   I respond to your post with Biblical answers.  And, all you can offer in rebuttal is childish prattle.  That does not speak well of your religion nor of your knowledge of God and His Bible.

 

Are YOU here just to argue and defame anyone who disagrees with you?  Or are you here for serious dialogue?  From virtually all your responses, it appears to be the former.   Whatever, it is fun to talk with children also.

 

I said what I said billie because there's nothing else to say. 

Vic, my Friend,

 

Now you know why I have been encouraging YOU to get out of that "religion" and get into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.   Roman Catholicism is just a "by rote" way of doing religion.   Christianity is a saving relationship with our Lord.   And a Christian relationship with Jesus Christ if FAR better than any religion.

 

People do not learn the Christian faith by rote; we do it by studying and understanding God's Written Word, the Bible.

 

So, when you tell me, "I said what I said billie because there's nothing else to say" -- I can empathize with you situation.  For you there is nothing more to say -- for you have been trained to respond "by rote" to all questions.

 

My Friend, get out of that "religion prison" and start thinking and seeking for God for yourself -- not by how "your leader" (the Vatican) has trained you to respond.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

 

I respond to your post with Biblical answers.  And, all you can offer in rebuttal is childish prattle.  That does not speak well of your religion nor of your knowledge of God and His Bible.

 

Are YOU here just to argue and defame anyone who disagrees with you?  Or are you here for serious dialogue?  From virtually all your responses, it appears to be the former.   Whatever, it is fun to talk with children also.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I said what I said billie because there's nothing else to say. You have

repeated yourself incessantly without a point except your opinion which

doesn't hold any value with the Bible. You can't comprehend any of it or

you just don't want to, which is it?

  

Jesus said,"and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." That means

you billie and all that have tried for the last 2000 plus years. Why don't you

have another try at disproving the 2000 year old documentation again.

But don't read Matthew, it's unbelievable. No wait, it's symbolic, there you go.

 

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