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quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
Okay, I went back and watched the video. I went back and viewed it five times and come to one conclusion. So? While not defending the action of the "players" in the video in any way, there is not one shred of conclusive evidence in that video that in any way links that to Blackwater or any Americans for that matter. Any one with a PC and minimal skills could take or create the video footage, strip what ever sound is there, and overlay it with whatever audio they want, especially radio chatter from English speaking personnel. Finally edit in a sequence that is definitely not part of the original and you have a "guerrilla masterpiece". That was propaganda and you fell for it. As far as the exceptions go, maybe "murderous jack***e$" are really the exception.


I'm thinking those weren't US Troops in the video.

This judge may have been correct to throw this case out on a technicality, however that doesn't mean these Blackwater employees didn't murder the unarmed fleeing civilians.


Considering that there is absolutely NOTHING in the video that proves the participation of any Americans, U.S. Military or otherwise, in that video, then yeah I would say you're thinking correctly. Surely this video was not the (only) "evidence" used to bring charges.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:

******

Blackwater Guards Fired at Fleeing Cars, Soldiers Say.

Blackwater USA guards shot at Iraqi civilians as they tried to drive away from a Baghdad square on Sept. 16, according to a report compiled by the first U.S. soldiers to arrive at the scene, where they found no evidence that Iraqis had fired weapons.

"It appeared to me they were fleeing the scene when they were engaged. It had every indication of an excessive shooting," said Lt. Col. Mike Tarsa, whose soldiers reached Nisoor Square 20 to 25 minutes after the gunfire subsided.

His soldiers' report -- based upon their observations at the scene, eyewitness interviews and discussions with Iraqi police -- concluded that there was "no enemy activity involved" and described the shootings as a "criminal event." Their conclusions mirrored those reached by the Iraqi government, which has said the Blackwater guards killed 17 people.

Tarsa said they found no evidence to indicate that the Blackwater guards were provoked or entered into a confrontation. "I did not see anything that indicated they were fired upon," said Tarsa, 42, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment of the 2nd Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division. He also said it appeared that several drivers had made U-turns and were moving away from Nisoor Square when their vehicles were hit by gunfire from Blackwater guards.

In the hours and days after the Nisoor Square shootings, the U.S. military sought to distance itself from Blackwater. Dozens of soldiers went door-to-door to seek out victims, offer condolence payments and stress that the military was not involved in the shootings, Tarsa and his soldiers said. Their actions underscore the long-standing tensions between the U.S. military and private security companies -- and the military's concerns that such shootings, and the lack of accountability for the private security industry, could undermine U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq.

"It was absolutely tragic," said Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, commander of the 1st Cavalry Division and the Army's top commander for Baghdad. "In the aftermath of these, everybody looks and says, 'It's the Americans.' And that's us. It's horrible timing. It's yet another challenge, another setback," he said.

******

After reading, I'm agreeing that Blackwater mercenaries acted without regard for human life and are making it difficult for our troops who are/were obviously in damage control afterward.


I reiterate, these contractors are most likely the exceptions, not the norm.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
Xe, formerly Blackwater, has a number of contracts with DoD, Homeland Security and provides services to State thru a rider on the DoD contract. A few early contracts were short term no-bid, but most are not. I'd really like to see evidence to the contrary.

As to their expertise vs. marine, he five I knew were, two were formerly Marines, was formerly an Army Ranger and another formerly a SEAL.


I understand it's no secret their mercenaries are almost always ex-military.

Why do you think we hire companies like Blackwater/Xe?

Why would our troops go and work for them?

Do you think they are held just as accountable by their command as say Marines are?

Why would any lifer stay enlisted when he could go and work for much better pay?

Why would a person be loyal to the US Military?

What are mercenaries motivation?

Lifers/US Soldiers = Service to country.

Blackwater Mercs = Service to the highest bidder $$$$$$

Am I way off base here?


The military uses Xe personnel to free up military personnel for combat operations. Guard duty and escort duty take time from personnel whose expertise is best used elsewhere more productively.
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
Hmmm...

The Real Blackwater Scandal


Yeah I read that article last night....

So they walk on a Justice Dept error, meanwhile unarmed innocent people, some fleeing, were gunned down.

And the op/ed guy's opinion is that this is the real scandal?

"Judge Urbina dismissed the charges because prosecutors misused sworn statements the guards were compelled to make to investigators after the shooting, under the threat of job loss. This was routine practice under military contracting rules, though the statements could not be used in criminal prosecutions."

That may be the law, but it isn't justice.

War is h3ll.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by marksw59:
Hmmm...

The Real Blackwater Scandal


Yeah I read that article last night....

So they walk on a Justice Dept error, meanwhile unarmed innocent people, some fleeing, were gunned down.

And the op/ed guy's opinion is that this is the real scandal?

"Judge Urbina dismissed the charges because prosecutors misused sworn statements the guards were compelled to make to investigators after the shooting, under the threat of job loss. This was routine practice under military contracting rules, though the statements could not be used in criminal prosecutions."

That may be the law, but it isn't justice.

War is h3ll.


It's hard to tell who's innocent and who's not over there. Hell you'd be so scared you would shoot at your own shadow! Razzer
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
Xe, formerly Blackwater, has a number of contracts with DoD, Homeland Security and provides services to State thru a rider on the DoD contract. A few early contracts were short term no-bid, but most are not. I'd really like to see evidence to the contrary.

As to their expertise vs. marine, he five I knew were, two were formerly Marines, was formerly an Army Ranger and another formerly a SEAL.


I understand it's no secret their mercenaries are almost always ex-military.

Why do you think we hire companies like Blackwater/Xe?

Why would our troops go and work for them?

Do you think they are held just as accountable by their command as say Marines are?

Why would any lifer stay enlisted when he could go and work for much better pay?

Why would a person be loyal to the US Military?

What are mercenaries motivation?

Lifers/US Soldiers = Service to country.

Blackwater Mercs = Service to the highest bidder $$$$$$

Am I way off base here?


The military uses Xe personnel to free up military personnel for combat operations. Guard duty and escort duty take time from personnel whose expertise is best used elsewhere more productively.


So from what I understand, the majority of BW/Xe was transportation/security.

And they were paid several times what our combat troops are paid.

I see something wrong with that picture.

And were Blackwater mercs following or bound by Uniform Code of Military Justice?

And if they weren't, why?

I don't expect you to know or answer these questions, and I do appreciate your input, these are more or less my thoughts - out loud.

Regards

*edit*

I just found this on Cato's site.
(dated April 4, 2008)

Finally, the new UCMJ authority does not include Department of State contractors. So contractors working in Iraq for DynCorp, Blackwater and Triple Canopy under State's worldwide personal protective services contract would be excluded. But these firms -- unaffected by the UCMJ change -- have been involved in some of the highest-profile PMC incidents in Iraq, such as the shootings in Baghdad last September by Blackwater contractors.

Link
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by kperk014:
It's hard to tell who's innocent and who's not over there. Hell you'd be so scared you would shoot at your own shadow! Razzer


You're probably right, I think most people would be.

But most people aren't trained mercenaries either.

Regards


I'm just saying that, just as in Viet Nam, sometimes you don't know till it's too late. When it comes to war, he who hesitates is dead.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
Xe, formerly Blackwater, has a number of contracts with DoD, Homeland Security and provides services to State thru a rider on the DoD contract. A few early contracts were short term no-bid, but most are not. I'd really like to see evidence to the contrary.

As to their expertise vs. marine, he five I knew were, two were formerly Marines, was formerly an Army Ranger and another formerly a SEAL.


I understand it's no secret their mercenaries are almost always ex-military.

Why do you think we hire companies like Blackwater/Xe?

Why would our troops go and work for them?

Do you think they are held just as accountable by their command as say Marines are?

Why would any lifer stay enlisted when he could go and work for much better pay?

Why would a person be loyal to the US Military?

What are mercenaries motivation?

Lifers/US Soldiers = Service to country.


Blackwater Mercs = Service to the highest bidder $$$$$$

Am I way off base here?


The military uses Xe personnel to free up military personnel for combat operations. Guard duty and escort duty take time from personnel whose expertise is best used elsewhere more productively.


So from what I understand, the majority of BW/Xe was transportation/security.

And they were paid several times what our combat troops are paid.

I see something wrong with that picture.

And were Blackwater mercs following or bound by Uniform Code of Military Justice?

And if they weren't, why?

I don't expect you to know or answer these questions, and I do appreciate your input, these are more or less my thoughts - out loud.

Regards

*edit*

I just found this on Cato's site.
(dated April 4, 2008)

Finally, the new UCMJ authority does not include Department of State contractors. So contractors working in Iraq for DynCorp, Blackwater and Triple Canopy under State's worldwide personal protective services contract would be excluded. But these firms -- unaffected by the UCMJ change -- have been involved in some of the highest-profile PMC incidents in Iraq, such as the shootings in Baghdad last September by Blackwater contractors.

Link


Yes, Xe personnel were paid more than our troops. However, we didn't have to absorb the expense of training them. and, we could end the contract at will and not have to worry about what to do with their personnel after hostilities ended.

No civilians are subject to the UCMJ unless their in a theater of war during a war declared by congress. The Supreme Court made that ruling during the Viet Nam era.
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
Xe, formerly Blackwater, has a number of contracts with DoD, Homeland Security and provides services to State thru a rider on the DoD contract. A few early contracts were short term no-bid, but most are not. I'd really like to see evidence to the contrary.

As to their expertise vs. marine, he five I knew were, two were formerly Marines, was formerly an Army Ranger and another formerly a SEAL.


I understand it's no secret their mercenaries are almost always ex-military.

Why do you think we hire companies like Blackwater/Xe?

Why would our troops go and work for them?

Do you think they are held just as accountable by their command as say Marines are?

Why would any lifer stay enlisted when he could go and work for much better pay?

Why would a person be loyal to the US Military?

What are mercenaries motivation?

Lifers/US Soldiers = Service to country.


Blackwater Mercs = Service to the highest bidder $$$$$$

Am I way off base here?


The military uses Xe personnel to free up military personnel for combat operations. Guard duty and escort duty take time from personnel whose expertise is best used elsewhere more productively.


So from what I understand, the majority of BW/Xe was transportation/security.

And they were paid several times what our combat troops are paid.

I see something wrong with that picture.

And were Blackwater mercs following or bound by Uniform Code of Military Justice?

And if they weren't, why?

I don't expect you to know or answer these questions, and I do appreciate your input, these are more or less my thoughts - out loud.

Regards

*edit*

I just found this on Cato's site.
(dated April 4, 2008)

Finally, the new UCMJ authority does not include Department of State contractors. So contractors working in Iraq for DynCorp, Blackwater and Triple Canopy under State's worldwide personal protective services contract would be excluded. But these firms -- unaffected by the UCMJ change -- have been involved in some of the highest-profile PMC incidents in Iraq, such as the shootings in Baghdad last September by Blackwater contractors.

Link


Yes, Xe personnel were paid more than our troops. However, we didn't have to absorb the expense of training them. and, we could end the contract at will and not have to worry about what to do with their personnel after hostilities ended.

No civilians are subject to the UCMJ unless their in a theater of war during a war declared by congress. The Supreme Court made that ruling during the Viet Nam era.


I would think that the vast majority were already trained by some branch of our military or they wouldn't be eligible for such a job description. But BW/Xe may put them on the range, through an obstacle course or something to make sure they've still got it.

I just can't see doling out so much money to a middle man (BW/Xe), shouldn't we have some sort of auxiliary option to offer ex-military these positions and save the taxpayer some money?

As a nation we spend way too much on warfare and welfare. Completely unsustainable.

Don't we as a nation, approximately spend as much or more than the rest of the world combined in this area?

We're 5 per cent of the population and we're outspending the other 95 per cent?

And what disturbs me is that someone somewhere making the decisions thinks we can afford this.

Big government has to be reeled in....

Regards
quote:
would think that the vast majority were already trained by some branch of our military or they wouldn't be eligible for such a job description. But BW/Xe may put them on the range, through an obstacle course or something to make sure they've still got it.

I just can't see doling out so much money to a middle man (BW/Xe), shouldn't we have some sort of auxiliary option to offer ex-military these positions and save the taxpayer some money?

As a nation we spend way too much on warfare and welfare. Completely unsustainable.

Don't we as a nation, approximately spend as much or more than the rest of the world combined in this area?

We're 5 per cent of the population and we're outspending the other 95 per cent?

And what disturbs me is that someone somewhere making the decisions thinks we can afford this.

Big government has to be reeled in


Actually, Xe has extensive training areas. Not all their personnel ccome from the military. Some are ex-law enforcement and others, just civilians who wish to enter the field. Xe also provides training to government and non-government organizations. See their website for details.

http://www.ustraining.com/new/index.asp

As to expense, DoD's budget, as a percentage of the GDP is lower than in the past. National defense is mandated by the constitution. Its all the other stuff that isn't that is non-sustainable.

We may be 5 percent of the population, but as a trading republic with the largest GDP and the largest manufacturing nation, we must keep the sea lanes and trade routes open. Being a wealthy nation requires a large force.

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