let me, please, interject on a common misconception

Hi David,

 

None of those Scripture references you show have anything to do with repetitive prayer.  They are about praying faithfully and consistently -- but, not repetitive prayers on beads or from pre-written Prayer Books -- prayed by rote.  That is what Jesus Christ condemned, the Rosary type of repetitive, by rote, kind of praying.  That is why the Rosary is not Biblical.

 

Also, on a typical Rosary -- one prays a handful of prayers such as the Our Father, the Nicene Creed, and the Glory Be.  But, in the typical Rosary there are 150 repetitive prayers to Mary -- against that small handful of other prayers.  So, the Rosary is definitely a prayer ritual to Mary.  Yet, nowhere in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary, period.

 

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

As Dr. Anthony Pezzotta has written in his book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism And The Holy Scripture," page 145:

 

Parts of the "Hail Mary" can be found in Scripture.  It begins with a statement which Gabriel used in greeting Mary.   "Hail (Mary), full of grace; the Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28).  And, then you have Elizabeth's greeting:  "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb" (Luke 1:42).  These are found in the Bible, but they are greetings, not prayers.

 

The second part of the "Hail Mary" is not from the Bible.  It has been composed by the church and contains the unBiblical expressions:  "Holy Mary" and "Mother of God."

 

The Rosary  is unacceptable as a prayer because it is addressed to Mary who is a human being like you and me.  It is also unacceptable as a prayer because of the constant repetition of words.  Jesus had this to say about repetitive prayers:   "When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long" (Matthew 6:7, TEV).

 

If anyone should know about Mary and praying the Rosary -- It is Dr. Anthony Pezzotta.  He was born in Italy, into a devout Roman Catholic family.  He studied for 15 years in Roman Catholic seminaries in Italy, England, Spain, and Germany -- and was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in 1961.  Having a number of advanced degrees, he was appointed Director of Schools and Seminaries, as well as a Rector of Local Salesian Communities in the Philippines -- where he served for ten years -- teaching other priests.

 

After leaving the Roman Catholic church, he earned another Master's degree from Denver Seminary and was awarded a Doctor of Divinity by Western Seminary in Oregon.

 

So, as you can see -- we are not talking about a man who only dabbled in Roman Catholicism for a while -- and then changed his mind.  Tony Pezzotta was very much a devout Roman Catholic -- until what he was teaching began to ring untrue to him.  That is when he knew he had to walk away from Catholicism and serve the Lord in a Baptist ministry.

 

Therefore, when this man tells me that it is not Biblical to pray to Mary, to worship Mary, and all the rest of the Marian dogma found in the Roman Catholic church -- I believe him.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

my word on this is, cry out to God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and no matter how many times you say. " Lord help me, or Lord i Love you" it will always please the Lord.

 

MATTHEW 24:37  As is the days of Noah.....

 

quit complaining on this forum........

 

Jesus is coming back soon!!!!!!

#6 and #12 among others. Embrace the system, Bill.  If you are going to be repetitive, at least do so in an abbreviated way so we don't have to suffer through it all, once again.

HoD,

 

You mentioned the Gethsemane story.  According to the story, everyone was asleep except for Jesus.

 

So who knew what to write?

 

It's a story, nothing more.

 

 

DF

 

When Jesus went into the garden of Gethsemane to pray, He took with him Peter, James, and John:

 

Matthew 26:37-40, "And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed. (38) Then He said to them, 'My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.'  (39) And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.'   (40) And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, 'So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?' "

 

Yet, it would not have mattered if it had been all His disciples; for God can do His works with one or with one billion people.   How did the apostles know what to write about this event in the garden?  In the same way the forty writers of the Bible knew how to write the books which would be included in our Christian Bible -- through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

Non-believers say the same thing about Moses and the Pentateuch -- how could he write those books when he was not yet alive when those events occurred?  He, too, was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

Therefore, what he wrote was true -- just as what the rest of the forty Scripture writers wrote is true.

 

God is awesome, His wonders to perform:

 

Deuteronomy 32:3-6, "For I proclaim the name of the LORD; Ascribe greatness to our God!   The Rock!  His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.  They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation.  Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you."

 

Yes, Deep, it is a story.   But, it is a TRUE STORY and one that you will accept -- now, or later.  Now is better!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Once again, bill you fail to recognize that the "meat" of the rosary is the meditation on the mysteries- which I have shown you repeatedly to be completely biblical. Don't be so hung up on the Hail Marys - when we pray a rosary, we are focussing on the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. Again, I must add that it is extremely disconcerting that you speak against prayers that bring others closer to our Lord. Question and examine your motivations.

____________

Besides the fact that Moses didn't write the Pentateuch, nor did God write any of the Bible, this is just a #8 along with #11.  Embrace the system.

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VP, my Friend,

 

The "meat" of the Rosary -- is 100% pure Mary.   In a typical Rosary there are 150 prayers to Mary.  How few prayers are there to God -- to Jesus Christ, the ONLY TRUE Mediator between man and God in a typical Rosary? 

 

Nowhere in the Bible can you show me a verse or passage telling us to pray to Mary -- or to any of the other Roman Catholic "special saints."

 

When one prays the Rosary -- they are NOT focusing on Christ or His birth, death, resurrection, and ascension.  They are focusing on Holy Mary, Roman Catholic declared Mother of God -- which is totally, completely UNBIBLICAL.

 

My motivation?  It is to praise God for the "saving relationship" I have with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ -- and to follow His, not Mary's, Great Commission to "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them" (Matthew 28:19-20) -- and to be His witness in all the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).   Yes, HIS  witness -- not Mary's witness.

 

So, my Friend, if Mary is the "meat" of your Rosary prayers -- all I can say is, "Beware of rancid meat!"

 

But, I thank you for raising these invalid points -- for they give me an opportunity to show valid Biblical proof that they are not true -- and will not lead anyone to eternal life in Christ. 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

You are so dead wrong- The rosary is based on 20 mysteries of the Christian faith. All about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. You can find those 20 in my prior posts, or wikepedia. You must stop spreading falsehoods about a church you do not understand.

Good evening Bill,

You are indeed way off on this one.  You stated: 

Nowhere in the Bible can you show me a verse or passage telling us to pray to Mary -- or to any of the other Roman Catholic "special saints."

 

Actually, there are quite a few verses that tell us to proay to Mary and the saints, as I noted previously from the Book of Revelation.  Also, the intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

 

When one prays the Rosary -- they are NOT focusing on Christ or His birth, death, resurrection, and ascension.  They are focusing on Holy Mary, Roman Catholic declared Mother of God -- which is totally, completely UNBIBLICAL.

 

This is TOTALLY untrue.  The focus of the Rosary is the meditation on the mystery.  And as I have noted previously, Mary is the Mother of God.  To deny that is to deny that Jesus is God, and the Mary gave birth to Jesus, who is always fully God and fully Man.  It is totally Biblical. 

 

God bless!!

And just a reminder Bill I posted the meditations along with their Scriptural references. Take some time and read over it- you will see that the Rosary is a prayer meditating the mysteries of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Clearly you cannot get past the "Hail Mary's" but if you would yourself meditate on the 20 mysteries of the Rosary, perhaps a better understanding would come to you.

Hi Nathan,

 

You tell me, "Actually, there are quite a few verses that tell us to pray to Mary and the saints, as I noted previously from the Book of Revelation."

 

Please refresh my memory.   I have done an indepth study of Revelation for over 20 years -- and I do not know of ANY verse or passage in Revelation, or in the entire Bible, which tells us to pray to Mary or to dead saints.   Please give me those Scripture references again -- along with your explanation of how they refer to praying to Mary.

 

Then, you tell me, "Also, the intercession of fellow Christians -- which is what the saints in heaven are -- also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should intercede."

 

Let's take a look at 1 Timothy 2:1-6:

 

1 Timothy 2:1-2, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, (2) for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

 

1 Timothy 2:3-4, "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

 

And, the verses you suggest, verses 3 and 4 connects with what we are told in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

 

Nathan, where do you find Mary or other dead saints (true or Roman Catholic) in this Scripture passage?

 

Yes, Paul is calling for ALL CHRISTIANS to intercede for others.  But, he is speaking of living Christian believers -- praying for other living Christian believers, and for the salvation of all non-believers.

 

This is for the living believers -- not those who have already died and are in heaven.  In every case where the apostle Paul, or any other Biblical writer, calls us to offer prayers of intercession -- it is always from people who are still alive and for people who are still alive. 

 

Where do you find the Bible telling us that those in heaven are praying for us?   You mentioned Luke 16 before -- where the rich man is asking Abraham to intercede with and for his brothers who are still living.   Abraham tells him, "No can do!"

 

Nathan, once believers are in heaven, they are so busy worshiping and praising the Lord -- they have no time for anything else. 

 

Revelation 4:8, "The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!' "

Revelation 4:10-11, "The twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:  'You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.' "

This is not prayer, repetitive or otherwise.  This is continual Praise and Worship offered to our God.

 

And, all those mortals who have died and gone to heaven -- my mom, Mary, and all others who have died -- are also joining in that Praise and Worship.   They are all in the greatest Praise and Worship service that can be imagined.

 

We are not on their minds, for they are too busy in Praise and Worship of God -- and God promises no more tears in heaven. 

 

Personally, I know that if my mom could see me on earth -- she would have tears -- for I am not as good a Christian as I should be now, nor as good a Christian as I will be some day.  Yes, it would probably break my mom's heart if she could see me now -- for I make far too many mistakes and missteps.  But, praise God, she cannot.  And, neither can Mary or any other mortals who have died and are in heaven.

 

If you need prayers, which we all do -- you need to have your Friends here on earth praying for you.  For, besides you own prayers -- that is all the intercession you will get in this life. 

 

And, of course, the Holy Spirit within you and me is guiding us.  But, we do need folks around us praying for us.   For Mary surely cannot.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

---

Hi David,

 

Jesus also raised people from the dead -- but, I cannot.  Can you?

 

Yes, Jesus did meet and talk with Moses and Elijah at His Transfiguration.  And, I suppose if you ever become Jesus Christ and have a Transfiguration -- you, too, will be able to talk with the dead.   But, until then, I don't believe God wants us seeking intercession from those who are dead.

 

Since praying to the dead is basically the same as psychic channeling; let's look at what the web site GodQuestions.Org has to say about it:

 

Question:  "What does the Bible say about channeling?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/channeling-Bible.html

Answer:   The Bible is clear in its handling of channeling and contacting the dead.  Scripture has a well-documented view of the practice of mediums, channeling, and fortune-telling.  Leviticus 19:31 states, “Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them…”  Leviticus 20:6 says, “I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.”  Deuteronomy 18:12 says that consulting mediums or channeling the dead is “detestable.”  Clearly, God sees these practices as sinful and completely without benefit.

Saul, a powerful king of Israel, finally reached the end of his tragic fall away from God when he involved himself in channeling.  Saul chose to seek answers from a medium when God didn’t provide him the answers he wanted.  In 1 Samuel 28:6-20, Saul asks a psychic to summon the spirit of the prophet Samuel.  His grave error is mentioned later in 1 Chronicles 10:13-14, which emphasizes that Saul’s involvement in it was wrong: “He [Saul] was unfaithful to the Lord, he did not keep the word of the Lord, and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord…”

As Christians, we ought to seek God’s answers to our questions.  Praying to or “channeling” any other being is idolatry.  Praying to any dead person, including the apostles, Mary, and so forth, is not so very different that holding a séance and asking a dead relative to help us. 

 

Most so-called mediums are actually frauds who use memory tricks, planted accomplices, and special effects to fool people.  Those that are not frauds are cooperating with dangerous spiritual beings. Satan’s henchmen are adept at appearing as helpful spirits, making it easy for them to confuse and corrupt people who open themselves up through channeling.

 

And, to quote a great Alabama legend, Forrest Gump, "And, that's all I've got to say about that."

 

Please forgive what might appear to be a light-hearted comment; but, that seemed to fit so well.  I am not denigrating your faith -- but, it just seems so clear to me that the Bible tells us that we only pray to God and Jesus Christ.

 

When we need intercessory prayer -- we ask our Christian brothers and sisters to pray for us.  And, when they do, we all pray to Jesus Christ who is our only mediator.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

_______________

#6 - stop wasting our time with cut and pastes.  Embrace the system.

Good evening Bill,

Hope all is well with you and your family.  You said the following:  " I don't believe God wants us seeking intercession from those who are dead,"  and you seem to believe that the saints in heaven do nothing but praise God.  That is not true, as I have repeatedly pointed out, using Scripture.  As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

 

At the heart of the matter, it seems to me, is your reliance in a few passages of Scripture.  You must to consider the entirety of Scripture, to try to get a sense of what God intended when he inspired the writers of the Scriptures. 

 

But a more basic problem continues to exist.  That is the denial of the authority of the Church.   

In the Holy Bible, we read, "If I (St. Paul) am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is great..." [1 Tim. 15-16]

In the aforementioned passage, two things stand out. Paul refers to:
i. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, and
ii. Our Catholic religion.

Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth. They also believe that no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for salvation.

Such a belief, "Sola Scriptura," (meaning only need the Bible) cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. Not only that, they fall short of recognizing that Saint Paul was referring to "our religion, the Roman Catholic Church and its Rites, the only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Chruch that was instituted on earth by Jesus Christ.

The Protestant argument that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of the truth does not make any sense for two reasons:

i) It was not until the fourth century that the Catholic Church completed its selection of the "canon of Scripture." The Bible could not be the pillar and bulwark of the truth prior to the fourth century because the Holy Bible did not exist.

 

ii) It was not until the 1600's that the first Bible was printed. Prior to those days, very few Bibles were available, such being hand written and owned by the Church and/or the rich, these being kept under lock and key. So the average person had no access to the Bible. He could not use the Bible as a reference to support that it was the pillar and bulwark of the truth. In fact, the people turned to the Church to learn the tradition, the doctrines, the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Additionally, you fail to account for the fact that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ, as noted by St. Paul in his letter to the Ephesians, 5:21-33. Eve, the bride, was taken from the side of Adam as he slept a deep sleep (cf. Genesis 2:21-22). Adam woke up to exclaim that she is, "…bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh…" (Genesis 2:23). The church, also, is taken from the side of the New Adam as he slept the deep sleep of death upon the cross. His side was pierced and out flowed water and blood, which represents how the church becomes the body, and thus bride of Christ, that is, through baptism and the Eucharist.

When a husband and wife are married the two become one flesh.  As Paul noted, this is a great mystery, in reference to Christ and the Church.  Note that the two become one flesh.  Christ and the Catholic Church are one.  You cannot separate the two.  To deny the Catholic Church is to deny Christ.  When the Church speaks, Christ speaks. 

Bill, Regarding your comment about Jesus raising the dead, you say you can't. MATTHEW 10:8 " heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give" :-)

Hi Nathan and David,

 

Nathan, you bring up Revelation 5:8 as proof of the dead in heaven offering intercessory prayers for we who remain on earth:

 

Revelation 5:8-9, "When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.  (9) And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.' "

 

It is true that the prayers of the saints (all Christian believers) are a pleasing aroma to God.  However, what makes you think those are prayers from dead saints, i.e., believers, in heaven.  I read that as prayers offered by living saints on earth rising to the ears of God.

 

And, David, you offer Matthew 10:8 as proof that we believers can raise the dead today:

Matthew 10:5-8, "These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; (6) but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  (7) And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'  (8) Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.  Freely you received, freely give.' "

 

Yes, Jesus gave special powers to His immediate apostles, just as God gave special powers to His Old Testament prophets.   I believe we find these gifts were bestowed on those people, in that time, to bring the message of God to us.  Now, He has given us His Bible, His Word written for us -- to be our sole authority pointing us toward eternal salvation and guiding us in our daily Christian walk.

 

In other words, God put His love and His guidance into one compact book that ALL can access and study.  So, now, there is no longer any need for prophets and for man to perform miracles to teach us.

 

Yes, miracles absolutely do occur -- every day.  And, I believe they are from God.  Every time a doctor heals an illness, in my heart, that is a miracle from God.  Every time we share the Gospel and a lost soul is brought into the family of God, in my mind, that is a miracle.

 

And, the greatest miracle of all -- is that God would allow we weak, frail, sinful humans to be His hands, voice, and feet on the street -- bringing about those miracles.

 

But, David -- in my 75 years of living -- I have never seen anyone -- pastor, preacher, priest, or whoever -- raise a person from the dead.   Have you?

 

I believe what we are told in Hebrews 9:27-28, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (28) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

 

We all will stand before Christ in judgment:  Believers in the Believers' Judgment in heaven during the Tribulation where we are prepared, as the Bride, for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb (Revelation 19:6-9).

 

Non-believers at the Great White Throne Judgment which will occur after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom of God on earth.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill, when I said that "the great commision" was intended for the apostles, you denied that and said it was for every Christian. Now you say that the apostles only, were given these special powers. So SOME of what the apostles were told to do was ONLY for them, and some for all of us?

 

Also, you claim the Bible is all people need now, and knowing that almost everyone in America has either read the Bible, or heard its message, why do you keep claiming that we have to keep on telling people what they already know?

 

I think that missionaries who go to countries where Christ's message and the Bible have never been heard of are carrying out "the great commision", but that those who feel it is their job to keep repeating it to those who have already heard are spinning their wheels and would serve God best by doing something TRULY constructive for Him.

#6, #7, #5.  Embrace the system, Bill. 

_______________

#7, #9, #11.  Embrace the system.  There are tons of people that "share His Gospel" for their own gain.  Look in the mirror if you don't believe me.

Bill, I have told you repeatedly that I believe that for those who have heard the Word, as almost everyone in this country has done, the best way to reach those who haven't embraced that Word is to show by example what having Jesus as the center of one's life can do. TELLING them over and over again, the things that they have already heard, will just cause people to tune you out. SHOWING them by sharing the joy He has brought into my life, by being always kind and giving to those less fortunate than myself, being quick to forgive and wish people well who have wronged me, and answering questions honestly ("How did you end up moving here?" "God brought me.") has OPENED people's ears and hearts to the Lord, MUCH more than if I told them over and over again that, "There are only two destinations when we die. Which do you chose?"

 

So I suggest that if you can't be a good example of what a Christian should be, you find yourself a good church to attend. One where they don't depend on the interpretations of people like Chuck Smith or those politically motivated preachers you love so much. Maybe if you would let the Holy Spirit lead you instead of these preachers with an agenda, you might just learn enough about the REAL Christian walk that you won't have to explain to Jesus why you talked the talk in order to puff yourself up, but never walked the walk because that would involve being HUMBLE.