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Actually, I have two former atheist friends God has saved. The change in their lives has been amazing--not just external things, but their hearts have changed. They have new desires, new friends, etc. And it's not just been a flash-in-the-pan pull myself up by my bootstraps kind of change, but it's been lasting. When I'm around them, they make me want to be more like Jesus. I'm sure you'll say they weren't "true" atheists, but if you had known them before they were saved you would've said they were two of the least likely people you knew to turn to faith in Christ. But when God's grace and conviction comes and shows you your sin in all its ugliness, you have no choice but to run to Him. I would say that the change in their hearts and lives over the course of several years is definitely observable, measurable, and testable, but I don't know about rational. No one can explain why God would take us (any of us) as wicked as our hearts are and use us for His glory. Makes no sense to me, I'm just glad He does it.
Last edited by Mommyofthree
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
I am curious if anyone can give me one single observable, rational, measurable, testable thing that religion can do for a person that cannot be done by secular means.

No cheating here: You can't say, "It gives me eternal life!" or purpose. That is not testable or even rational.



Your daily rational rantings.
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
I am curious if anyone can give me one single observable, rational, measurable, testable thing that religion can do for a person that cannot be done by secular means.

No cheating here: You can't say, "It gives me eternal life!" or purpose. That is not testable or even rational.


Hmmm.....

Religion can give and make excuses as to why god, in his/her infinite power, and granting multitudes of healing and miracles, hasn't healed one single amputee.
A friend of mine lost her brother in Iraq recently. The only thing that helps her deal with such a terrible loss is the knowledge that he is in a better place and that one day she'll be with him again.

She is a very intelligent and reasonable person. So I'd like to know who would volunteer to tell her that her belief is stupid and that her brother is not in a better place, but simply no longer in existence, as per the secular view.

If you truly believe these are facts, then isn't it your duty to share that information with her so that she can be free of her irrational beliefs? Something of this importance should be done in person, so any volunteers are welcomed to PM me and I'll provide directions to her house. Make sure her kids are there as well, we can't have her abusing them by filling their heads with such nonsense about their uncle being in Heaven, right?

Any takers?
Fish...an example...one time sitting in church minding my own business engrossed in a sermon, God spoke to me and told me to give $1,000 to some Venezuelans to help build a church. I looked around, didn't know where that came from; I was a single mom with little money, but knew His voice. Didn't know anything about the church either..but 2 wks later the pastor from a Venezuelan church showed up..(wow!) I talked to him for 4 hrs before I said the Lord told me to give you $1,000...and before I could say.."but I don't have $1,000 to give"...he was saying "thank you, Phyllis, thank you so much!!!" Muchas gracias..what could I do but write him a check...I tried to beat the check to the bank with an income tax refund before it bounced. To make a long story even longer...when before I was always short on money before..somehow, miraculously, I always had an extra $1,000 in my banck account at the end of the month (After I paid the bills) From then on it grew and grew. I paid off my house and car..All I can say is..it was God! Believe it or not, but I live it. He has always taken care of me...how can I not believe???
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
I am curious if anyone can give me one single observable, rational, measurable, testable thing that religion can do for a person that cannot be done by secular means.



You're right GoFish. There's not anything that's testable or observable. NO ONE who subscribes to any religion, myself included, can prove it.

Do you remember St. Anselm from those 400 level history classes?

St. Anselm’s Ontological Argument

St. Anselm, the Catholic archbishop of Canterbury, first devised something called the Ontological Argument. It's a philosophical argument and is one of the most extensively debated of the proofs of God's existence by notables such as the philosopher,Immanuel Kant,who denounced the proof and Hegel who defended it.

The proof is recognized because it alone claims to prove the existence of God by relying independently on human reason without the need for physical evidence.

The proof relies on the concept of God as a "perfect" entity.

Here is St. Anselm’s proof:

1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.

2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.

3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.

4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality.

5. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.

6. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.

7. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.

8. Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.

The proof states that God, a perfect being, must exist in all possible circumstances in order to satisfy the definition of his perfection. A God that can exist in only some circumstances, but fails to exist in others is a less than perfect being.

I wrote a coupla papers on it in school. My summary was that it was so confusing, you left the reader with the idea he ought to just give up and accept it. lol

But again, it no longer proves anything tangibly. I just thought I'd throw it out there as food for thought.
God exists beyond our understanding...that is why you have to experience Him to know he is there. I never understood "born again" until I experienced it. It makes no sense. Only those who have experienced it first hand understand. It's like trying to explain being in love. You know you are...but how would you have explained it before you had experienced it??
quote:
A friend of mine lost her brother in Iraq recently. The only thing that helps her deal with such a terrible loss is the knowledge that he is in a better place and that one day she'll be with him again.


Okay, y'all go back and read the question. Again, what I seek are examples of religious things that cannot be addressed by secular means.

I, too, have experience profound loss, Nash. In fact, we all will at some point. To live is to die, ya know. The thing that keeps me going is the knowledge that that person is without pain and can no longer miss me.
quote:
She is a very intelligent and reasonable person. So I'd like to know who would volunteer to tell her that her belief is stupid and that her brother is not in a better place, but simply no longer in existence, as per the secular view.


And, Nash, that would be inhuman for someone to intentionally attack a person who is down like that. I suggest you not introduce her to this thread.
Miami, there are miracles happening every day...you just are there where they're taking place. I have heard about limbs being restored, apendages growing back that weren't there before. Most of the miracles are happening in Africa and other countries that are having a real spiritual awakening. I think not as many are happening in the U.S because we have grown callous and unbelieving. God cannot work if you are not open to Him. Did you read about my miracle. That is only a drop in the bucket of the things He has done for me. I have been healed at least 4 times.
quote:
Originally posted by Monet:
guess I will just self publish that one Deb, whenever I get around to it. It will be a short one. But, who knows maybe a publisher will snatch it up. Haven't tried yet.
Those excerpts were written mannny years ago.


Look for a similar book, find the publisher's address, call and find out who is taking submissions and send them a querey. It's easier when someone else promotes your books for you and has to do all the leg work and cover design, etc. Of course, if you know about distribution, then self pub has a great return of profit. No middle man to pay! Good luck with your book!
quote:
And, Nash, that would be inhuman for someone to intentionally attack a person who is down like that. I suggest you not introduce her to this thread.


You believe that it's true that there is no God or afterlife and that to believe in such is dangerous. So to tell someone what you believe is true is attacking them? How so?
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:

Okay, y'all go back and read the question. Again, what I seek are examples of religious things that cannot be addressed by secular means.



I tried the rational part. I can't show you anything tangible though. But Fish, cool topic! I think everyone needs to be reminded that all people do not share the same views - that most often, beliefs are based on emotions rather than rationale - and that everyone should be respectful of others and their viewpoints.

If people weren't so different, I wouldn't have all the cool characters I write about. Without a conflict, goal, and motivation, there's no storyline!
That's true, Debra, you can always get ideas from real life. Here's you a spooky tale...(a true one) I had a vision..on my bedroom wall..one night, that was from God (at least, that's my belief) over 25 yrs ago. It was of an open book with blank pages against the blackest velvety background..and the most beautiful apple I had ever seen was above it. That was it...then it disappeared. I had always believed that it meant I was supposed to write something. I assumed Christian books...but here I am 25 yrs later.....
But back to the subject of the forum...one thing that my religion gives me that secularism cannot...at least I didn't have it before I became a Christian...is PEACE. No matter what happens, not matter how mean or horrible..I always have peace. You know that Someone else is in control of your life..and you can turn it over to Him. You don't have to worry.
You know, Jesus said to enter the kingdom of God we have to become as little children. A child is at the mercy of his parents, and has to trust they will take care of him/her. These days, we all want to be in control of our own lives. Are afraid we will have to give up something we want to hang onto. That's when people look on God as a big Boogyman who won't let them do what they want. But, in reality, it is our own selves that limits our freedom.
In God, you find a whole new freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by debralglass:
St. Anselm’s Ontological Argument


I believe the official response to that argument is "Russell's teapot" which, in effect, supplants the word "God" with a celestial teapot.

This, of course, has been updated to include our true creator, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (which does actually exist) and who has, in fact, given me nearly endless happiness. In fact, His Noodlienss is - at this very moment - forcing my mouth into the shape of a grin as we speak.

That grin could not happen by secular means.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
So to tell someone what you believe is true is attacking them? How so?


It would be inhuman for me to tell a crying child that her puppy is dead, already rotting and will never be seen again. It would be beyond callous to inform an exuberant child on Christmas eve that Santa does not exist. Some people are ready to accept the truth and some never will be.

Which is all completely beside the point. This should not be a hard question: Give me one single example of something that region can do for a person that secularism cannot.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
A friend of mine lost her brother in Iraq recently. The only thing that helps her deal with such a terrible loss is the knowledge that he is in a better place and that one day she'll be with him again.

She is a very intelligent and reasonable person. So I'd like to know who would volunteer to tell her that her belief is stupid and that her brother is not in a better place, but simply no longer in existence, as per the secular view.

If you truly believe these are facts, then isn't it your duty to share that information with her so that she can be free of her irrational beliefs? Something of this importance should be done in person, so any volunteers are welcomed to PM me and I'll provide directions to her house. Make sure her kids are there as well, we can't have her abusing them by filling their heads with such nonsense about their uncle being in Heaven, right?

Any takers?


Irrational argument. You are asking someone to be cruel for the sake of cruelty in a time of grief. There are hundreds of things you could say to the sister that wouldn't help her one bit and would be equally cruel, and few have anything to do with God or His existance.
Reminds me of this interview done by Pat Tillman's mom.

Pat Tillman -- Non-Christian

Pat Tillman was an American professional football player who, after September 11, gave up a million dollar contract to fight "for his country" in Afghanistan. He was killed by "friendly fire," though the US military managed to hide that embarrassing fact for almost five weeks. Tillman's family has been pressing for an investigation. Now there is a report that the selfless Tillman was an atheist, or at least a non-Christian, which has some in the Army upset.

This investigation of the incident, from ESPN.com (thanks to Blawg and Economics), quotes Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, an officer with responsibilities for Tillman's unit:

Kauzlarich said he'd learned Kevin Tillman, Pat's brother and fellow Army Ranger who was a part of the battle the night Pat Tillman died, objected to the presence of a chaplain and the saying of prayers during a repatriation ceremony in Germany before his brother's body was returned to the United States.

Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives.

Lt. Col. Kauzlarich's discomfort with atheism is interesting:

In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough."

Guess that's true. Guess atheists do find death "pretty tough."

Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans' religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, "I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system [by the Tillmans]. So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know."

Here, in response, is Tillman's mother:

Well, this guy makes disparaging remarks about the fact that we're not Christians, and the reason that we can't put Pat to rest is because we're not Christians," Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, said in an interview with ESPN.com. Mary Tillman casts the family as spiritual, though she said it does not believe in many of the fundamental aspects of organized religion.

"Oh, it has nothing to do with the fact that this whole thing is shady," she said sarcastically, "But it is because we are not Christians."

After a pause, her voice full with emotion, she added, "Pat may not have been what you call a Christian. He was about the best person I ever knew. I mean, he was just a good guy. He didn't lie. He was very honest. He was very generous. He was very humble.

...The Tillman family has continued to try to push through layers of Army bureaucracy for answers, about both the death of their son and the appearance that Pat Tillman's Army life, and death, might have been used for political purposes.
quote:
Miami, there are miracles happening every day...you just are there where they're taking place. I have heard about limbs being restored, apendages growing back that weren't there before. Most of the miracles are happening in Africa and other countries that are having a real spiritual awakening. I think not as many are happening in the U.S because we have grown callous and unbelieving. God cannot work if you are not open to Him. Did you read about my miracle. That is only a drop in the bucket of the things He has done for me. I have been healed at least 4 times.



Whoa. Prove it. You made a claim please try to cite your source. Show me where there is any evidence of anyone having limbs appear or regenerating appendages. That is utter nonsense, which I believe impugns your credibility to be spouting out such unsubstantiated garbage. Before you make such wild claims please take a minute to back it up and see if it is real or not.
quote:
It would be inhuman for me to tell a crying child that her puppy is dead, already rotting and will never be seen again. It would be beyond callous to inform an exuberant child on Christmas eve that Santa does not exist. Some people are ready to accept the truth and some never will be.


I agree, yet you and others have been doing this very thing on a regular basis.

There are many people who read these threads without responding. People who may have recently lost a loved one and find comfort knowing that death is not the end of existence.

Sitting in their home and reading a callous, insulting thread that you've written is the same as being in the same room with them and speaking to their face. It inflicts the same amount of pain whether you're typing it or saying it. The only difference is it's easier to say such things when you don't see the hurt it causes others.

I respect your atheism and your views that there is no God, I'm not here to change that. My point to you and others on here is to quit being an a-hole about it because you never know who's reading it. You can express your views with respect, but that has been lacking lately. That goes for some believers here as well. Telling someone they are going to Hell because they don't agree with you is also an a-hole thing to do.

As for your question, with secularism death is the end, it's unable to carry on past that. With religion, death is a transition to something greater than we can imagine and beyond the grasp of secularism.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
I am curious if anyone can give me one single observable, rational, measurable, testable thing that religion can do for a person that cannot be done by secular means.

No cheating here: You can't say, "It gives me eternal life!" or purpose. That is not testable or even rational.


Hmmm.....

Religion can give and make excuses as to why god, in his/her infinite power, and granting multitudes of healing and miracles, hasn't healed one single amputee.
Hi Miami,

How do you know He hasn't? Can you personally prove that God has NOT healed an amputee?

You are always talking about proof -- give me verifiable proof this has NOT happened.

The Bible tells me that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus raised the widow's son from the dead. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the centurion's servant. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the blind. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the lepers. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the withered hand. The Bible tells me that Jesus healed the man who was so sick he could not walk; yet he picked up his pallet and walked home.

I believe the Bible. You CANNOT disprove the Bible.

Oh, you can make claims about the Bible; it is a book of myths, etc. -- but, you CANNOT give us verifiable proof that this is true -- only claims.

Therefore, secularism and atheism are just blowing smoke up each other's rear.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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