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Dispensational premilliennialists’(such as Bill Gray) claim that the descendants of Abraham (i.e. the Israelites) never inhabited all the land promised to them in the Abrahamic covenant and that therefore, since God cannot lie, the possession of the land by the Jews is to occur some time  in the future.  

 

That this is an utterly fallacious concept is clearly and irrefutably shown by a scripture that these end time extremists continue to ignore, namely Joshua 21: 43-45., which includes these words:

 

“...so the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. . . Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel.  All came to pass.” 

 

Hey, they received the promise already.  They got all that land.  Sadly, through their disobedience, they failed to keep it. There is no basis upon which to posit the bestowal of a promise that already has been fulfilled.  Israel failed to hold on to that which was promised, owing to their unfaithfulness--something that is recurrent in the Old Testament and that resulted in the various captivities that the nation of Israel suffered through and other punishments from God. The scriptures unambiguously declare that  the entirety of the land promise to Abraham was fulfilled in ancient times.  Thus that promise is not future tense and you can forget about all the aassociated folderol currently attached to that promise by the disordered Darbyite-Scofieldian end times enthusiasts of our day!

 

 God promised  Abraham that "his seed" would possess the land of Canaan (Gen. 12); God kept His word, Israel possessed the land (Josh. 21). God promised David that He would raise up his seed (Gal. 3:16) and establish His throne and kingdom (2 Sam. 7); This God accomplished by raising up the Christ, establishing His kingdom, and giving the Son the throne (Acts 2:30ff; 13:33; Col. 1:13). 

Premillennialists nevertheless to a future where, presumably, God will do it all over again.  They neglect the strong, unambiguous teaching of Deuteronomy 28, which makes it clear that God's promises and blessings upon Israel were conditional and that Israel's disloyalty to God would bring forth curses and destruction!

I yam what I yam and that's all I yam--but it is enough!

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quote:   Originally Posted by Contendah:

Dispensational premilliennialists’(such as Bill Gray) claim that the descendants of Abraham (i.e. the Israelites) never inhabited all the land promised to them in the Abrahamic covenant and that therefore, since God cannot lie, the possession of the land by the Jews is to occur some time  in the future. 

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Not sure where you got that wee bit of wisdom, or if you just made it up.  However, that is not what Dispensationalist believe or teach.

 

God gave the Holy Land to the Israelites, the 12 tribes -- and David united those tribes into one powerful nation. That kingdom was the land God had promised to Abraham -- and Jerusalem was its ruling city.

 

Upon Solomon's death, his son Rehoboam became king.  And, through his bad leadership, the kingdom was divided -- ten tribes in the north, and Judah and Benjamin made up the southern kingdom.

 

The ten northern tribes, called Israel, were taken into captivity by Assyria.  And, eventually the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by Babylon.  Eventually, all the tribes were disbursed throughout the world -- and stayed that way for 2000 years.

 

After World War 1, God began to bring the nation of Israel back into His promised land.

 

Question: "What is the land that God promised to Israel?"
http://www.gotquestions.org/Israel-land.html


Answer:
In regards to the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares to Abraham, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates.” God later confirms this promise to Abraham’s son Isaac and Isaac’s son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the Promised Land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, “Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Great Sea on the west.”

According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised.

 

After World War 1, France and England established the land which would be called Israel.  This land included the nations of Israel, Jordon, and much of the land to the south.   When the Arabs complained loudly (squeaky wheel theory) -- the land to the east was taken from the Israelites and renamed Jordan.  And, land to the south was taken away -- leaving the small nation we now see as Israel.  That action took away about 60% of the land God had promised to Abraham and his descendants, Israel.

 

One year later, secret negotiations between Sir Mark Sykes of Britain and Georges Picot of France divided the Ottoman territories among the two European powers. Their agreement specified partially British and partially international control of Palestine, and gave modern-day Syria to the French — both promises that arguably conflicted with the previous years’ correspondence. In 1917, the “Balfour Declaration” — a letter from Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild, a powerful British Zionist — announced Britain’s support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, adding to the claims and obligations that Britain had engendered.

 

In 1918, at the close of the war, Britain assumed control and called the area Palestine, as the Romans once did. Two years later, British authority was codified by League of Nations mandate over the areas that include present-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, and Jordan, as well as neighboring lands.  (Timeline: The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: 1914 - 1949 - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/widean...lict/1914-1949/2770/)

 

In 1948, God brought the nation of Israel together again in His promised land.  And, for all these years since 1948 Israel has been trying to live in peace -- while being constantly attacked by the much larger Arab nations surrounding her.

 

While Israel today is only a small portion of the land God promised to Abraham -- one day His Remnant of Israel will indeed have their promised land.

 

Through the seven year Tribulation God will bring forth His remnant of faithful Jews, the Israelites.  And, at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus Christ returns to establish His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom from the throne of David in Jerusalem -- the faithful remant of Israel will be His priests and help rule His perfect theocracy for 1000 years.

 

So, my Friend, the Christian church has NOT replaced the nation Israel as God's chosen people.  While Israel is the wife of God, the Christian church is the Bride of Christ.  And, we shall live together in peace -- throughout the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom and on into never ending eternity.

 

That, my Friend is what the Bible teaches.  And, that is what we in the PreTribulational Rapture/PreMillennial Return of Christ camp (also called Dispensationalists) believe and teach.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 Thessalonians 4-17 - Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Last edited by Bill Gray
quote:  Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

When you have Revelation at your disposal, you can formulate any ridiculous end times scenario.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

So, YOU would throw out the book of Revelation.  And, you have told us before that the books written by Paul do not belong in your Bible -- and, as I recall, you have stated that the only books which should be in the New Testament are the four Gospels.  Not the current, God chosen, 27 books in the New Testament.

 

Just curious, how many of the 39 Old Testament books would you toss out?   How many books would YOUR Crusty Bible contain?   Ten, fifteen?  Or less?

 

My Friend, I am sure happy that God was in control of selecting the Bible canon -- and not you!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Bible Clarity Or Sin

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Crusty, my Friend,

 

So, YOU would throw out the book of Revelation.

 

That's not what I said, though I can see how a fundy wacko like yourself would misinterpret what I did say.  Typical.

 

And, you have told us before that the books written by Paul do not belong in your Bible

 

That's a lie.

 

-- and, as I recall, you have stated that the only books which should be in the New Testament are the four Gospels. 

 

That's another lie.

 

Not the current, God committee of men chosen, 27 books in the New Testament.

 

Corrected that for you, and either way it is just a continuation of your last lie.

 

 

Just curious, how many of the 39 Old Testament books would you toss out?  

 

None.

 

How many books would YOUR Crusty Bible contain?   Ten, fifteen?  Or less?

 

The current number as arrived at by committee, edited by men, written by men is sufficient.

 

My Friend, I am sure happy that God was in control of selecting the Bible canon -- and not you!

 

God didn't do it.  Men did.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Have another blissed day.

 

Bill DHL™

 

What I imagine you look like every time I read one of your posts:

 

bill drool

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Crusty, my Friend,

 

Do you have ANY IDEA what Holy Spirit (God) Inspiration means? 

 

Do you have ANY IDEA what God meant when He inspired Paul to write, in 2 Timothy 3:16,"All Scripture is inspired by God. . . "?

 

Or, do you just NOT care?

 

Crusty, my Friend, I have asked you this before with no answer.  But, let me ask again:

 

What is the Bible to YOU?   

 

How would YOU define the Bible -- God's Word OR man's writings?

 

Your answers will tell us a lot about you and where you stand with God.  Can you stand that heat?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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You MISS THE POINT ENTIRELY, Bill. You say:

 

"According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised."

 

What Israel (the modern state of that name) "currently possesses" is NOT the issue.  As I showed you from scripture (Joshua 21), 

 

“...so the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. . . Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel.  All came to pass.” 

 

Either that land promise was fulfilled or the scriptures are incorrect, Bill. God promised that land; God delivered that land.  Either the good things God had promised  "[a]ll came to pass" or they did not. And if they  did not, then the scriptures are in error. God did not promise Israel that they would continue in all His blessings should they become unfaithful to Him.  They DID become unfaithful, and the land that they possessed was taken away. As I posted above,  Deuteronomy 28  makes it clear that God's promises and blessings upon Israel were conditional and that Israel's disloyalty to God would bring forth curses and destruction!  History demonstrates the sad truth of this.

Last edited by Contendah
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Do you have ANY IDEA what Holy Spirit (God) Inspiration means? 

 

Do you have ANY IDEA what God meant when He inspired Paul to write, in 2 Timothy 3:16,"All Scripture is inspired by God. . . "?

 

Or, do you just NOT care?

 

Crusty, my Friend, I have asked you this before with no answer.  But, let me ask again:

 

What is the Bible to YOU?   

 

How would YOU define the Bible -- God's Word OR man's writings?

 

Your answers will tell us a lot about you and where you stand with God.  Can you stand that heat?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

_________________

LOL  Bill DHL™!!!!

 

Every time you get caught out in a lie or two or three you go into self-righteous, street corner preacher mode.   When you do, this is the graphic that seems to apply to you best.

 

 

bill question

 

Or this:

 

 

 

ted haggard

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Crusty, my Friend,

 

IN OTHER WORDS, you cannot answer my simple questions -- so, you try to find larger rocks to throw. 

 

I am not surprised, for who would expect a person who denies the Written Word of God -- to know anything about God and His Bible?

 

So, my Friend, since you CANNOT answer my simple questions --  it is time for you to frantically search for larger stones to throw.   Good luck!

 

Bless your simple little heart!

 

Bill

quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crusty, my Friend,   IN OTHER WORDS, you cannot answer my simple questions -- so, you try to find larger rocks to throw. 

 

I am not surprised, for who would expect a person who denies the Written Word of God -- to know anything about God and His Bible?

 

So, my Friend, since you CANNOT answer my simple questions --  it is time for you to frantically search for larger stones to throw.   Good luck!

I can, but I won't.  I don't feel compelled to answer questions posed by a lying hypocrite.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

I suppose that is as good a dodge as any.   In more knowledgeable circles, we call that "dancing around the issue." 

 

But, I suppose that when one is Biblically illiterate, the there are only two paths:  admit your lack of knowledge - OR - dance around pretending to know something.  My Friend, you are not a very good dancer!

 

Bless your little heart!

 

Bill

Gimme A Hug

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crash, my Friend,

 

I am not sure why YOU are even in this discussion.   You wouldn't know a Premillennial from an Amillennial if one jumped up and bit you in the butt, your seat of knowledge.

 

Shouldn't you be playing with the kiddies in the Secular Sandbox?

 

Bless your confused little heart!

 

Bill

Pooh & Piggy - Unfriended

 

______________________________________________

 

When someone posts a comment or question on a public Forum, that is exactly what it is: PUBLIC.

 

contrary to what your simple mind believes, this is a PUBLIC forum.. do you recognize the above quote? someone else said it, when questioned about posting in a topic, on these very forums. much like you did, above.

Last edited by Crash.Override

Crash, my Friend,

 

True, it is a public forum and folks of all level are welcome, even your Spiritual PreKindergarten class.  However, since I have no knowledge of cooking -- I stay out of the Food Forum.  And, I would just assume that the Spiritual PreKindergarten class would leave discussions of the Christian faith to adults.

 

But, not to worry -- we in the Adult Christian discussions are tolerant of spoiled children who are throwing tantrums just to get attention.  So, you are welcome!

 

Bless your little heart!

 

Bill

Friends_Piggy

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Crusty said

I can, but I won't.  I don't feel compelled to answer questions posed by a lying hypocrite.

------

Crusty, my Friend,

 

I suppose that is as good a dodge as any.   In more knowledgeable circles, we call that "dancing around the issue." 

 

But, I suppose that when one is Biblically illiterate, the there are only two paths:  admit your lack of knowledge - OR - dance around pretending to know something.  My Friend, you are not a very good dancer!

 

Within the knowledgeable Cabal here billiee, you are known as the

twinkle toes dancer you dodge so much, but then you are proven

wrong about he Bible daily. And you have no compunction what so ever

for the lies you infest the word of God with, also daily.

 

Are you so stupid you never realized your "OSAS" was shot down by

Jesus when he specifically denies salvation by faith alone when he said "not 

everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of Heaven”.

 

Dance around this question, if bad works could lead you to Hell, why can't

good works help you into Heaven..??

 

 

Vic, my Friend,

 

As usual, you show your Biblical illiteracy.   You ask:

 

Dance around this question.  If bad works could lead you to Hell -- why can't good works help you into Heaven?

 

First, bad works are NOT what earns a person a berth in hell.   That honor is ONLY for those who deny Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- and refuse His "paid in full" gift of eternal life, a gift which is available to all people.  But, a person must make a definite choice between heaven and hell.

 

And, the second part of your question:   "why can't good works help you into Heaven?"

 

Well, the main reason is because God tells us, in Ephesians 2:8-9,  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

My Friend, instead of sitting smugly in your abode of Biblical Illiteracy -- it would do you an eternal world of good if you would find a local Christ-centered, Bible-teaching Christian fellowship -- and get involved with them in their Bible study. 

 

I am not sure if you ever had Catechism lessons -- but, regardless, a good Bible study would do wonders for you.   Just a thought.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

I doubt God considers street-corner preaching of heresy, lies, and hypocrisy to be works.

Last edited by CrustyMac
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote: Originally Posted by CrustyMac:
quote:  Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crusty, my Friend,   IN OTHER WORDS, you cannot answer my simple questions -- so, you try to find larger rocks to throw. 

 

I am not surprised, for who would expect a person who denies the Written Word of God -- to know anything about God and His Bible?

 

So, my Friend, since you CANNOT answer my simple questions --  it is time for you to frantically search for larger stones to throw.   Good luck!

I can, but I won't.  I don't feel compelled to answer questions posed by a lying hypocrite.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

I suppose that is as good a dodge as any.   In more knowledgeable circles, we call that "dancing around the issue." 

 

But, I suppose that when one is Biblically illiterate, the there are only two paths:  admit your lack of knowledge - OR - dance around pretending to know something.  My Friend, you are not a very good dancer!

 

Bless your little heart!

 

Bill

 

________________

LOL!!!  And this is just a diversion you attempt to dance around your lies and hypocrisy. 

 

You are the self-proclaimed great dancer.  And it shows.

.

So while billiee is working to establish his kingdom in Heaven by his works

on earth needs to remember what God thinks about it.

<q> </q>

For, in their unawareness of the righteousness that comes from God and

their attempt to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to

the righteousness of God.

Romans 10:3

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