Hi to all my Forum Friends,
In the discussion I began a few days ago titled "The Jesus Film Project - Great Movie!" -- my legalistic Christian Friend, Head, keeps telling me that the movie presents the wrong message, or a watered down message, about salvation. I remind him the movie is based, virtually verbatim, on the Gospel of Luke; so if he is telling me that the movie is wrong, he must believe that the Gospel of Luke is in error. And, I ask him if he believes the other three Gospels are also in error.
To this, he replies, "The material at the end of the movie promotes a flawed and incomplete plan of salvation, which is not in the Gospel of Luke, or in any of the other Gospel accounts, or anywhere else in the new Testament. Thus, in saying that the movie is in error on that point, I am in no way asserting any form of criticism against the Gospel of Luke, any of the other three Gospels, or any other parts of the Old or New Testaments. Your accusations to the contrary reflect a severe deficiency in your ability to apply fundamentals of reasoned analysis."
You are speaking in generalities when you tell me that the movie "promotes a flawed and incomplete plan of salvation." I was taught some 25 years ago, by a very wise, very Godly pastor -- to both speak and pray specifically. Since God knows all our needs, He knows what we will pray for -- but, if we pray in generalities, how will WE know when He answers our prayer? If we pray for specific needs, and even our wants, when He does answer, we will be able to recognize his answer to our prayers and gives thanks to Him for answered prayers. The same applies to what we speak. If we speak in specifics; then both we and others will know what we mean.
So, specifically, what do you find wrong with the movie or the ending? Is it the suggested Prayer of Faith, i.e., Salvation Prayer: "Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Take control of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be. Amen."
If so, keep in mind that this is a "suggested" Prayer of Faith -- not the exact words you have to say to be saved. It is not the words which save you; it is what is in your heart. If Jesus Christ is in your heart, and you sincerely want Him to be your Lord and Savior -- use any words that you feel are more fitting -- or pray a much longer prayer if that gives you a stronger feeling of eternal security.
Suggesting this prayer is like pointing folks toward the path of safety. You show them the path, but, they must walk it. If they choose to stroll slowly, skip, jump, or even run -- there is no problem, as long a they are moving toward that place of safety, eternal life in Jesus Christ.
My Friend, please do not get hung up over the simplicity of the Faith Prayer. Make it as long or as short, and as simple or as complicated as you wish. If done sincerely, God will hear -- and you will be a child of God.
Next, you ask me, "Answer this, Bill. If a sinner were to approach you, realizing that he is in an unsaved state and "pierced in his heart" as were those lost sinners in Acts 2:37, what would YOU tell him that he needed to do? Would you tell him to do that which Peter instructed in Acts 2:38, or would you tell him something else?"
Acts 2:37-38, "Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?' (38) Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' "
I would tell him exactly what Peter said that day -- repent and be baptized. Please notice the time sequence. First, REPENT. And, then be baptized. What happens at the moment of repenting?
Ephesians 1:13, 4:30, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,. . . by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
This tells us that, at that moment, the very moment we believe -- WE ARE SEALED. In other words, at that very moment we are saved. Since a person need be, and can only be, saved once -- it is finished, as Jesus said in John 19:30. So, if we are already saved at that moment -- how can we later be saved through baptism? Thus, "baptismal regeneration" is not Biblical. While baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, baptism is not required for salvation, as we see with the thief on the cross (Luke 23:43).
And, when we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, we are told that we are sealed in Him "for (or until) the day of our redemption." The day of our redemption is the day when we meet our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ. When is that? That is the day we believers die in this mortal body -- or the day we are raptured from this mortal body.
So, to answer your question more specifically, i.e., what would I tell non-believers if they come to me and asks, as those people did on the Day of Pentecost, what they must do to be saved -- I would give them the same answer Jesus gave Nicodemus that late evening, "You must be born again of the water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:3,5).
What does this mean? To understand what "being born again of the water" means, let's turn to the story of the woman of Samaria in John 4:
John 4:9-14, "Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, 'How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?' (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) (10) Jesus answered and said to her, 'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, "Give Me a drink," you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.'
(11) She said to Him, 'Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? (12) You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?' (13) Jesus answered and said to her, 'Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; (14) but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.' "
Jesus said, in John 3:5, that we must be born again of the water and the Spirit. No one can dispute that He is speaking of the Holy Spirit, who will indwell and seal all believers at the moment of their salvation.
And, in John 7:37-39, He combines the water and the Spirit, "Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. (38) He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, "From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " (39) But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
So, what is this "living water" which Jesus speaks of in both these Scripture passages? It can only be the Word of God, both the Living Word, Jesus Christ, and the Written Word, Scripture, the Bible.
To summarize, how are we saved? We are saved through the Word of God (Written and Living) and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Then, my legalistic Friend, you tell me, "I am no Armstrongite (Herbert W. Armstrong, Worldwide Church of God) and how you ever reached any suspicion that I could be is beyond me. I am under no obligation to provide any more details of my religious beliefs or affiliation that I care to on this forum. I have posted candidly on many, many points of doctrine and if you don't understand where I am coming from relative to my beliefs, then you just have not been paying attention.
And it is you who have so frequently and so strongly insisted that the name over the church door does not matter and that it is what a person believes that counts with God. If there is any element of my belief that you desire further comment upon, you should know that I will not be hesitant to discuss it candidly."
Let me reverse the order of my replies to several of your comments here. First, yes, I have often written that a person is not saved by a church; but, only by having a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. And, I have often quoted the words of the beautiful Gospel song, "It's Not What's Over The Door" sung by The Cathedrals, The Crimson River Quartet, and many other great Gospel groups:
It's not what's over the door Of the church that you attend,
That makes you a child of God, And a heavenly citizen
As the eyes of the Lord look this world o'er,
There's just one thing He's lookin' for
Can't you see that's what's in your heart,
And not what's over the door.
To hear this beautiful song sung by the Crimson River Quartet, a Southern California Gospel group:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyEALTeKnM
To hear it by the Glory Gates Quartet at the Arad Gospel Festival 5-14-2011, Palatul Cultural in Arad, Romania, at the Arad GospelFest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XebAEWcliUA
Then, my Friend, you tell me, "I am under no obligation to provide any more details of my religious beliefs or affiliation that I care to on this forum. "
I agree with you that no one is obligated to tell anyone else which church he/she attends. But, I do have to suggest that hiding it (like Obama's birth certificate and school records) when one comes on the Religion Forum and shares his beliefs -- does have to create a lot of questions. I gladly tell folks that I am a Baptist-flavored Christian believer.
Why do I say I am a Baptist-flavored Christian? I strongly believe that every single Christian believer should put in writing, for his/her own edification, your own Christian Statement of Beliefs, or Statement of Faith. In other words, making it clear in your own mind -- and to those with whom you share the Gospel -- YOUR (not just your church's) Christian Biblical Beliefs. I did this years ago and I am happy to share my Statement of Faith with anyone who asks.
Now, to the Baptist-flavored thing: my Christian Statement of Beliefs very well aligns with the Baptist Statement of Beliefs. With this, I know that both my church, which is a Baptist General Conference (BGC) Baptist church, and I are in full doctrinal agreement. Thus, I am a Baptist-flavored Christian believer who attends a Baptist church.
I could just as easily attend another denominational, or non-denominational, church and be right at home -- as long as their Statement of Beliefs (some call it a Statement of Faith) and mine are in alignment on the Essential Christian Beliefs.
Now, back to you and your unmovable resistance to sharing about your church -- yes, I have been asking you for years what church (not the specific church, but, which denomination or flavor of church) you attend. And, for years, even though you come on the Religion Forum and strongly refute the beliefs and writings of other Christians -- you will not tell us anything about your personal church affiliation. Why?
Are you ashamed of the church you attend? Isn't that rather like telling folks, "I am married to the most beautiful woman in the world!" And, then refusing to be seen with her in public? Just asking!
You ask why I have often thought you are affiliated with Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. Well, your extremely legalistic views of salvation, baptism, separation of church and state, your views on virtually all End Times eschatological beliefs, and your beliefs on heaven and hell -- all seem to align with that church. So, I had to ask if that is the church you are ashamed to claim as yours.
And, finally, you tell me, "In the meantime, kindly cease and desist from your insulting assertions that I have somehow found the Gospel of Luke, or any of the other Gospels, or any of the epistles to be in error. That accusation is blatant, unsupported rubbish and it is typical of the kind of cavalier mudslinging that brings down so much deserved criticism upon your arrogant head."
I am happy to see that we still have our close relationship intact. Let's take a look at your earlier comment in the "The Jesus Film Project - Great Movie!" discussion:
"I have seen this video with its truncated concept of the Gospel plan of salvation. It has undoubtedly mislead many. It is the same old compromised evangelical concept of 'Just believe on Jesus and take him as your personal Savior, etc.' Lost folks on the Day of Pentecost A.D. 33 (a date and scripture that you, Bill, often cite) asked, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do.' An apostle of Jesus Christ, empowered by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, responded by telling them to 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. . .'
How do the majority of evangelical preachers and teachers of this generation respond to that kind of question from anguished and lost souls? Same old, same old -- 'Say this sinner's prayer and ask Jesus to come into your heart and take Him as your personal Savior.' "
So, you begin by saying this movie, based very closely on the words of the Gospel of Luke -- is a truncated concept of the Gospel plan of salvation. Then, you go on to recommend the approach taken by Peter and the apostles on the Day of Pentecost -- Repent and be baptized. As I wrote earlier, I agree 100% with this. But, I also can see the sequence of events: Repent, i.e., become a believer. THEN, be baptized. Exactly what I believe and what I tell folks.
But, you are trying to squeeze them together: Repent/be Baptized, and then you are saved. That is not what Scripture tells us. It tells us to Repent, and then be baptized.
You question the Salvation Prayer (often called the Sinner's Prayer, or Prayer of Faith). Why? Isn't that what is meant by REPENT? To address our own failures, our sins -- to confirm that we believe that Christ died on the cross to pay for our failures and sins -- confess that we know that He was crucified for our sins, that He resurrected so that we, too, will have resurrection, and ascended into heaven where He is continually interceding with the Father on our behalf. And, then, to ask Him to come into our heart, into our life, and be our personal Lord and Savior.
Isn't this what we do when we repent -- confess and profess Him as our personal Lord and Savior? What happens at the moment we sincerely do this, i.e, sincerely pray this prayer? We are saved (Ephesians 2:8-9), we are indwelled and sealed (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30), and we become children of God (John 1:12).
To me, that IS confirming that I am saved and will spend eternity in the presence of God. Are you saying that the person who sincerely does this -- is NOT yet saved? If so, you are falling back on legalism, the Law, which Christ brought us out from under when He brought us into His grace.
And, my Friend, repenting in such a manner -- is the same as praying the Salvation Prayer. How did YOU become saved?
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
