Salvation: Justification - Sanctification - Glorification!

Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the TimesDaily Religion Forum discussion titled "Reminder #2" a Forum Friend went back in the discussion archives and found an old post in which a Roman Catholic Friend had apparently asked me the question: "Bill, do you only ask The Lord for forgiveness ONCE in your life because you are once saved always saved?"

To this new inquiry, I answered, "Simple answer: NO!" And, I posted a graphic created by Pastor Freddy Cortez which illustrates very well the relationship of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification in God's plan of salvation for the Christian believer.

My Roman Catholic Friend writes in response to that initial post:

Thanks for pulling my question out again. Cool! I too noticed Bill Gray's picture thingy refutes his own statement. Salvation is ongoing. If one continues to ask for forgiveness, then salvation is continuing to be granted.

My Friend, first, thanks for the memory! Your phrase "Bill Gray's picture thingy" brought back fond memories. My mom, who lived in Sheffield, Alabama, and was promoted to heaven in 1994, always called objects a "thingy" or a "doohickey" or some other cute Southern label. Such always reminds me of her. Thank you!

You suggest that "Bill Gray's picture thingy refutes his own statement." If you will look back at my Religion Forum posts over the past seven plus years, you will see that my position on the path of salvation has been consistent. And, it aligns very well with the graphic which Pastor Freddy Cortez created.

Now, to your statement: "Salvation is ongoing. If one continues to ask for forgiveness, then salvation is continuing to be granted."

In Scripture, you will find that Salvation is a one time event (Ephesians 1:13, 2:8) -- with Sanctification and Glorification following. Rather than recreate the wheel, let me offer what I posted in a recent discussion dialogue with another Forum Friend.

In that discussion titled "Salvation Or Works - Which Comes First?" -- another Roman Catholic Friend asks the question, "Why can't good works help you into Heaven?"

And, I respond:

Well, the main reason is because God tells us, in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

A Forum Friend who constantly disagrees with me and the Bible offers James 2:14-17 in rebuttal to that answer.

My Friend, the Scripture passage you have referenced is from James 2. And the apostle James begins this passage with a rhetorical question in verse 14 -- and then gives the obvious answer in verse 17.

James 2:14-17, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? (15) If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, (16) and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? (17) Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Notice that James teaches that the "faith" is dead -- but says nothing about the person's salvation. In other words, a Christian believer who has been given the blessed gift of eternal life, "paid in full" by the precious blood of Jesus Christ -- and who does not love Jesus Christ enough to do good works, good deeds, in His name -- that "faith" is dead.

But, that person still has the gift of eternal life purchased for him/her by Jesus Christ . What kind of Savior would He be if He gave a gift -- and then took it back?

That explanation of James 2:14-17 brings an immediate rebuttal from my "I don't believe the Bible" Friend:

Ummmmm..... no. Your reading comprehension score today is zero.

Faith is dead = no faith = no salvation = no eternal life = eternal hot seat.

For salvation there actually has to be works. Some, better than others, won't "burn" (i.e. gold vs straw). But without the works there is no faith and therefore no salvation.

My Friend, look more closely at Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. . . "

It is through a living "faith" that one is saved. That faith is not salvation. But through that living "faith" the door is opened through which we invite Jesus Christ to come in, dine with us, and be our Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20).

If one's faith is dead, that person cannot be saved by grace "through faith."

You have written:

For salvation there actually has to be works. Some, better than others, won't "burn" (i.e. gold vs straw). But without the works there is no faith and therefore no salvation.

Once again, you do not quite understand. You are still equating "works" with "salvation" -- while Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Works are the result of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation.

Notice in the graphic below that we are shown:

(1) The moment we receive Jesus Christ, i.e., we are Justified, saved:

The word justified means “pronounced or treated as righteous.” For a Christian, justification is the act of God not only forgiving the believer’s sins but imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. The Bible states in several places that justification only comes through faith alone (e.g., Romans 5:1; Galatians 3:24).

Justification is not earned through our own works; rather, we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8; Titus 3:5). The Christian, being declared righteous, is thus freed from the guilt of sin.

Justification is a completed work of God, and it is instantaneous, as opposed to sanctification, which is an ongoing process of growth by which we become more Christlike (the act of “being saved,” cf. 1 Corinthians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:23). Sanctification occurs after justification. (http://www.gotquestions.org/ju...cation-by-faith.html)

(2) Then we begin the process of growth in Christ called Sanctification -- through which we should grow more mature in our knowledge of God's Word, and more mature in our daily Christian walk with Christ.

And, (3) At mortal death, or at the Rapture, whichever occurs first -- we will be Glorified. What is Glorification? This Scripture passage explains it well:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we (all believers)will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, . . . "

Basically, Glorification is the time when God wipes away ALL vestiges of our sin nature and makes the believer fit to live eternally in His presence in heaven.

And that is exactly what the graphic below is telling us. We are saved, Justified (a one time event) -- then we begin the process of Sanctification which lasts throughout this mortal life -- and, at death or the Rapture, we are Glorified and taken into the eternal presence of God.

That, in a nutshell, is SALVATION! Straight from God's Written Word, the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/17/142:24 PM

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ContendahOld Faithful

So, then, Bill, your theology holds that one can be "justified" without ever becoming "sanctified", i.e without participating in good works or other elements of the "sanctification" process, and then proceed to be "glorified." That appears inconsistent with the concept of sanctification held by a certain prominent New Testament figure. Writing in the book of Acts, Brother Luke, reporting certain remarks by the Apostle Paul, gives us these accounts of Paul's take on sanctification:

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Acts 26:18 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

The "inheritance" of which the apostle speaks can be nothing other than eternal life in Heaven. He clearly regards that inheritance as something granted to the "sanctified."

Contrary to the depiction of sanctification as a concept of step-wise human spiritual progress, as in in that tidy but erroneous little diagram you like so much, the scriptures teach that sanctification is something that is accomplished by Christ, and through His blood:

Hebrews 13:12: Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

In the New Testament plan of salvation, the blood of Christ cleanses and sanctifies the sinner. The notion of some kind of step-wise progress from the point of conversion to some subsequent ultimate state of sanctification is not a Biblical one, Bill.

Sanctification is something JESUS did, once and for all, FOR us, Bill, not something WE do for ourselves.

It baffles me how and why certain pseudo-theologians like your buddy, Freddy Cortez, can construct such a distorted and un-Biblical concept of sanctification as is embodied in the graphic you take such misplaced delight and comfort in.

9/17/143:01 PM

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semiannualchickOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

My mom, who lived in Sheffield, Alabama, and was promoted to heaven in 1994, always called objects a "thingy" or a "doohickey" or some other cute Southern label. Such always reminds me of her.

________

And this from a man that forgot the woman even existed for 5 years!

9/17/143:46 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Contendah, my Friend,

You ask, "So, then, Bill, your theology holds that one can be "justified" without ever becoming "sanctified," i.e without participating in good works or other elements of the "sanctification" process, and then proceed to be "glorified."

Obviously, my Friend, you did not understand Pastor Freddy's graphic -- or what the Bible says about salvation. YES, a person is Justified and then starts the process of being Sanctified.

The Greek word for "sanctified" is hagiazō which means to be "set apart."

1 Corinthians 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

At the moment of our Justification -- we are saved, sealed eternally in Christ, never to be lost or snatched from His hands.

THEN, we begin our process of being set aside in Christ, Sanctified, to do good works in His name such as sharing His Gospel with the lost of the world. During the process of Sanctification, a believer should grow more mature in his knowledge of God's Word -- and grow stronger in his daily Christian walk -- which includes doing good works in the name of Jesus Christ.

WORKS are the result of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation!

AND, one day when we die in this mortal body or are Raptured from this mortal body -- we will be Glorified, declared clean of all sin, and ready to stand in His presence eternally.

That, my Friend, is SALVATION! You might want to study the chart below more closely.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/17/144:36 PM

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House of DavidHall of Famer

John 5:14-15

14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.

9/17/149:20 PM

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ContendahOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

Obviously, my Friend, you did not understand Pastor Freddy's graphic -- or what the Bible says about salvation. YES, a person is Justified and then starts the process of being Sanctified.

The Greek word for "sanctified" is hagiazō which means to be "set apart."

1 Corinthians 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

At the moment of our Justification -- we are saved, sealed eternally in Christ, never to be lost or snatched from His hands.

WORKS are the result of our salvation -- NOT the cause of our salvation!

AND, one day when we die in this mortal body or are Raptured from this mortal body -- we will be Glorified, declared clean of all sin, and ready to stand in His presence eternally.

That, my Friend, is SALVATION! You might want to study the chart below more closely.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

__________________________________________________

I read your verse,Bill:

1 Corinthians 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

It says precisely NOTHING that establishes sanctification as some kind of step-wise process following justification. Of course every Christian should grow and mature in the faith, but the Bible, as I have shown above, clearly teaches that the work of sanctification is done by Christ in the shedding of his blood.

Hebrews 13:12: "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate."

That blood of Jesus remits the sins of the sinner at the point of conversion and continues its sanctification effects upon those who "walk in the light as he is in the light.." (I John 1:7)

That concept is also set forth in Hebrews10:10-14:

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

Vine puts it nicely:

"Sanctification (Gr. hagiasmos) is that relationship with God into which men enter by faith in Christ ...[several verses cited here]...and to which their sole title is the death of Christ."

By the which will we are all sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

In several places in the new KJV Testament, hagiasmus is translated simply "holiness." If that practice had been followed consistently, perhaps no one would have seized upon the five-syllable "sanctification" and attributed to it a meaning inconsistent with its usage in scripture.

Bill, you seem to believe a thing is true simply because you say it is true. It doesn't work that way, though. You write:

"YES, a person is Justified and then starts the process of being Sanctified."

At the moment of our Justification -- we are saved, sealed eternally in Christ, never to be lost or snatched from His hands.

"THEN, we begin our process of being set aside in Christ, Sanctified, to do good works in His name such as sharing His Gospel with the lost of the world. During the process of Sanctification, a believer should grow more mature in his knowledge of God's Word -- and grow stronger in his daily Christian walk -- which includes doing good works in the name of Jesus Christ."

THAT does not square with THIS:

I Cor. 1:

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Folks that are "in Christ Jesus" have that sanctification, for Christ IS their sanctification!

I really don't see why you dote so much on sanctification, Bill, since using your description and considering your theology, justification alone will save that "Christian couch potato," whether or not he rouses himself and gets "sanctified" according to the theology of Pastor Freddy Cortez.

Every Christian is a SAINT. Saints, by definition , are sanctified (holy) persons, separated, set aside Do some study in Vines on "saint", "sanctification" and "holiness" and get yourself disabused of your un-scriptural concept of sanctification.

9/17/149:32 PM

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INVICTUSOld Faithful

billiee, in error said,

In Scripture, you will find that Salvation is a one time event (Ephesians 1:13, 2:8) -- with Sanctification and Glorification following. Rather than recreate the wheel, let me offer what I posted in a recent discussion dialogue with another Forum Friend.
------------------

Ephesians 1:13 / 2:8

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit,

What this refers to is sealed by Baptism and saved by the grace of God

as we grow in the grace of God. Doesn't mean we aren't allowed to do

good works that the Bible commands of us.

9/17/1410:09 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
billiee, in error said,

In Scripture, you will find that Salvation is a one time event (Ephesians 1:13, 2:8) -- with Sanctification and Glorification following. Rather than recreate the wheel, let me offer what I posted in a recent discussion dialogue with another Forum Friend.
------------------
Ephesians 1:13 / 2:8
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit,

What this refers to is sealed by Baptism and saved by the grace of God as we grow in the grace of God. Doesn't mean we aren't allowed to do good works that the Bible commands of us.

Vic, my Friend,

You have me confused. I am not sure if you are just that dense that you cannot read and understand what has been written -- or if you are purposely trying to misread what is written.

As shown in Ephesians 1:13, a person who hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, believes and receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- is sealed by the Holy Spirit at that moment. That sealing is a direct result of the person receiving Christ and being saved.

The sealing of the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with baptism.

THEN, the new believer begins the process of Sanctification which will continue throughout his mortal life. Part of that Sanctification is doing good works in the name of Jesus Christ -- and also growing more mature in knowledge of God's Word, the Bible.

You make the off the wall statement: Doesn't mean we aren't allowed to do good works that the Bible commands of us.

Where in the world did you get the idea that a believer should NOT do good works after being saved?

Once again:

WORKS are the result of our salvation --

NOT the cause of our salvation!

At death in the mortal body -- or when we are Rapture from this mortal body -- we will be Glorified, made acceptable to enter into the presence of God (1 Corinthians 15:50-53).

My Friend, please try to keep up with the discussion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/18/141:02 AM

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INVICTUSOld Faithful

Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

billiee, in error said,

Ephesians 1:13 / 2:8

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit,

What this refers to is sealed by Baptism and saved by the grace of God

as we grow in the grace of God. Doesn't mean we aren't allowed to do

good works that the Bible commands of us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I meant what I said and I'll say it again if I need to. You always hide behind

endless dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS hoping to cloud the truth.

It never does.

9/18/147:55 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Vic, my Friend,

You declare, "I meant what I said and I'll say it again if I need to.

But, let me remind you that it is exactly what you have declared -- WHAT YOU HAVE SAID! Not what the Bible has said. You occasionally dash out pieces of a Scripture verse making claims that it supports your erroneous beliefs. But, you never show real Biblical proof of those claims.

So, what do we have? We have Vic declaring one thing and the Bible declaring another. Now, which should we believe?

Then, you declare, "You always hide behind endless dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS hoping to cloud the truth."

By that "dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS" -- you are, of course, referring to the Scripture verses and passages which I share and explain, right?

So, we are back at the same impasse. Vic declares one thing, Bill shares Biblical passages which Vic declares to be "dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS" Now, which should we believe -- Vic's self declared beliefs -- or the Bible?

Not sure about other folks, but for me -- I have to always go with God's Written Word, the Bible.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/18/1412:43 PM

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INVICTUSOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

You declare, "I meant what I said and I'll say it again if I need to.

So, what do we have? We have Vic declaring one thing and the Bible declaring another. Now, which should we believe?

lolololol...whoa big boy...after that out of control melt down go change

your diaper, and hopefully shower. What you believe the Bible declares

and what God said are miles apart. You don't know proof of truth when

you see it and I've shown it to you too many times. If you can't keep up,

stay on the freakin porch.

You believe me, I've got a two thousand year old pedigree to back me up.

You have twenty five years of trying to change the Bible to suit yourself.

Then, you declare, "You always hide behind endless dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS hoping to cloud the truth."

By that "dribble of pointless pie in the sky BS" -- you are, of course, referring to the Scripture verses and passages which I share and explain, right?

If what you mean is the 90% useless BS and 10% heretic usage of the

Bible.

Are you talking to me or to yourself..??

Not sure about other folks, but for me -- I have to always go with God's Written Word, the Bible.

Why would I believe a self professed liar..?? Don't forget you admitted to

me you did in fact lie about the Bible because you couldn't afford to lose in

front of the forum.

9/18/142:38 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Hi all,

It is so sad to see a supposed adult person who cannot get above an elementary school yard mentality long enough to participate in a civil, intelligent discussion. Maybe my Friend, Vic, needs to go back and take more catechism lessons. For even though I do not agree with the Roman Catholic church teachings -- I do know that they do not teach that level of school yard tantrum and ranting which my Friend, Vic, mistakes for dialogue.

Please keep Vic in your prayers -- that some day he will grow into a mature man -- and, hopefully, into a mature Christian man.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/18/144:29 PM

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semiannualchickOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

Please keep Vic in your prayers -- that some day he will grow into a mature man -- and, hopefully, into a mature Christian man.

________

No, Billy, I’m not peeking, nor have I ever peeked. Sometimes I will actually read your junk & even reply.

You know what’s truly sad? To see a supposed adult person trying to convince people he’s a Christian when the very garbage he writes, says otherwise. It’s sad when this supposed adult cannot get above an elementary school yard mentality long enough to participate in a civil, intelligent discussion w/o the bully coming out in him & his bragging having to show itself. You should have gotten away from the school yard tantrum, ranting, & bullying when you got out of elementary school.

The Christians on this forum should keep you in their prayers, but we all know where you’re going to end up so those prayers won’t do you any good. You, Bill Gray, are a pitiful example of a “Christian”, & you’re not fooling anyone!

9/18/146:00 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

quote: Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
quote: Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all, It is so sad to see a supposed adult person who cannot get above an elementary school yard mentality long enough to participate in a civil, intelligent discussion. Maybe my Friend, Vic, needs to go back and take more catechism lessons. For even though I do not agree with the Roman Catholic church teachings -- I do know that they do not teach that level of school yard tantrum and ranting which my Friend, Vic, mistakes for dialogue.

Please keep Vic in your prayers -- that some day he will grow into a mature man -- and, hopefully, into a mature Christian man.

No, Billy, I’m not peeking, nor have I ever peeked. Sometimes I will actually read your junk & even reply. You know what’s truly sad? To see a supposed adult person trying to convince people he’s a Christian when the very garbage he writes, says otherwise. It’s sad when this supposed adult cannot get above an elementary school yard mentality long enough to participate in a civil, intelligent discussion w/o the bully coming out in him & his bragging having to show itself. You should have gotten away from the school yard tantrum, ranting, & bullying when you got out of elementary school.

The Christians on this forum should keep you in their prayers, but we all know where you’re going to end up so those prayers won’t do you any good. You, Bill Gray, are a pitiful example of a “Christian”, & you’re not fooling anyone!

Chick, my Friend,

Personally, I would cherish the prayers of every Christian believer on this forum -- and on other venues where I write. Nothing is more powerful than one Christian praying for another.

And, my Friend, I pray that they will join me in lifting prayers for YOU, that God will help you overcome the world of anger, hatred, and bitterness so obviously inside you. Whatever has caused you to turn away from God so vehemently, whether it be a prayer you felt He did not answer, or whatever -- I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove that hurt and doubt.

Chick, I have often said, and I mean it sincerely, I would love to see you become a believer -- for I would love to fellowship with you in heaven one day.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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9/18/1410:14 PM

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semiannualchickOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Chick, I have often said, and I mean it sincerely, I would love to see you become a believer -- for I would love to fellowship with you in heaven one day.

______

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. I'm not your friend, & you don't know me at all to say that I have anger, hatred, & bitterness inside me. I can't stand to see anyone that has the nerve to pretend & try to convince others they are a Christian as you do. Your "Christianity" comes thru in the way you speak to, make fun of, & call names to the people on this forum that doesn't bow down to you. You can shout prove it if you want but it's been proven to you time & again, but as always you run from the topic. People like you are a dime a dozen. At least I'm honest in who I am.

9/18/1410:42 PM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Chick, my Friend,

You tell me, "If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. I'm not your friend, & you don't know me at all to say that I have anger, hatred, & bitterness inside me."

No, I do not know you personally. However, I have been reading your posts for years. One needs only to read your posts to see the seething anger, hatred, and bitterness residing within you. Every post you make reeks of it.

And, I do pray that somehow the Holy Spirit is able to touch your heart and heal whatever is causing the hurt within you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

9/19/142:28 AM

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semiannualchickOld Faithful

And what about the other people here, Bill, that try to tell you the same thing I do? Does every post they make reek of "seething anger, hatred, and bitterness"? The majority of people on this forum have told you over & over how we feel about you. We've told you we've never seen a spark of real Christianity in you. All you can do is put down, call names, bully, make fun of, etc. If I go by the way you talk to most everyone on here, it's you that reeks of seething anger, hatred, and bitterness toward all of us. It's blasphemy every time you mention prayer or being a Christian. Whenever you make a writing concerning God or a sacred entity, you have committed blasphemy. I don't know why I even try to talk to you. You are so full of yourself, you actually believe people won't see the Devil that's within you.

9/19/142:59 AM

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Bill GrayOld Faithful

Chick, my Friend,

God loves you! And, so do I! God wants YOU to be saved and so do I -- so that the pain and bitterness you hold inside will dissipate and you will find peace. Then one day you and I will fellowship in heaven eternally. That would truly be a blessing.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

9/19/149:17 AM

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Crash.OverrideOld Faithful

hahahahahaha!

9/19/146:14 PM

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ContendahOld Faithful

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

_________________________

"Seething anger, hatred, and bitterness""

Definition:

Any and all comments that challenge Bill Gray's opinions, prejudices, theological fallacies, behavioral history or any other facet of Bill Gray's performance. But this descriptor is not the only device Bill uses in a vain attempt to gain dominance and cultivate admiration. Alternately, Bill simply castigates those with whom he disagrees as "liberals" or, instead of meeting their arguments head-on, simply accuses them of "sputtering." or of his now-favorite offense, "eisegesis."

Five days have now passed and Bill continues to avoid my challenge to his OSASininity!

Once more I post it as a reminder and as a plea to Bashful Bill to get off the porch get on with the polemics!

Ah, Bill, you are so transparently evasive. You quoted, AND THEN TOTALLY IGNORED that part of the Hebrews 6 passage that affirms that the persons described there had ""become partakers of the Holy Ghost." And you utterly failed to answer the question that I repeatedly posed to you, namely:

The believers in Hebrews 6:1-9 [believers who were believers indeed, having become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (V. 4)] became apostates who were deemed to have "crucified the Son of God afresh" (v. 5). Were those apostate former believers saved, Bill?

You boogied over to another passage, Ephesians 1:13:

"In Him, you also, after listening (hearing)to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

You contend that this passage somehow trumps the Hebrews 6 passage because the Ephesian passage specifically mentions that the subject persons "believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit."

But tell us, Bill, what is the difference between "being sealed with the Holy Spirit" (Ephesians 1:13) and "having partaken of the Holy Ghost" (Hebrews 6:4). More particularly, what is the difference between the two passages that assures you that the Ephesian were believers indeed but those persons described in Hebrews 6:4 had never been true believers?

Both had received the Holy Spirit, Bill. Are you telling me that there was something in the manner in which the persons in Hebrews 6 had received the Holy Spirit that left them short of having believed as they should have?

It is axiomatic that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4 were once Christian believers, but had apostatized. Among other things, it is evident that they had at some former time repented, since it would make no sense to say that "it is impossible to restore [them] again to repentance" unless they had repented at an earlier time. Moreover, they had been"enlightened." Thayer, the eminent Greek lexicographer (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,1963 Edition, page 663), says that the Greek word here used is in reference to "those who had been made Christians." He cites Hebrews 10:32 ("But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened you endured a hard struggle with sufferings....") as having identical meaning and there can be no doubt but that in that passage it is Christians who are being addressed and described.

So there you have it, Bill Gray. You have placed yourself in the untenable position of declaring that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4, although they had repented, and been "enlightened" and had "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" nevertheless had somehow never "believed" and thus never were true Christians.

To contend that the formerly penitent, formerly enlightened persons there described were never believers is a zany exercise in Calvinistic eisegesis, Bill, and you should be ashamed of buying into such a distorted interpretation. Such hermeneutical misadventures, alas, are the inevitable refuge of those who seek to defend the indefensible Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance!

As to that Colossians 1:23 passage and your astonishing misinterpretation, Bill, I can only say "GOOD GRIEF!" What in thunder is the apostle describing if not SAVED BELIEVERS??!! He says this:

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...." Read that again, Bill and tell us just how those Colossians can "continue in the faith grounded and settled"and still not be saved believers. And do not try to contend that Paul was writing to anyone here but Christians. In the second verse of the same chapter, he describes who he is writing to: "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse...." Paul leaves no doubt that he considers these "faithful brethren" to be saved persons or he would not have addressed them in this manner.

Bill, you dance around the second part of verse 23 in a feeble, irrational attempt to argue that though they had "heard", they could not be said to be true believers, that they had not taken the "final step and BELIEVED in Him unto salvation." Again, Bill, just how could those Colossian "saints and faithful brethren" "continue in the faith grounded and settled" and still not have "BELIEVED"? ? How could they "continue in the faith" without having ever been "in the faith"? One can not continue in something unless one is in that something already!

In the beginning of this string, Bill, you exulted in the fact that there are many viewers of this forum and that through your so-called ministry, at least some of them might find the truth. It is my fond hope that at least some of them might read the truth that I have posted above about the utter falsity and shabbiness of your Calvinistic distortions of the meaning of the scriptures discussed above.

9/19/146:48 PM

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semiannualchickOld Faithful

Originally Posted by Contendah:

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If Billy would get his head out of his butt, he could learn a lot from you. But he won't cause he likes it so much.

9/19/147:13 PM

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Dove of PeaceHall of Famer

Originally Posted by Contendah:

"Seething anger, hatred, and bitterness""

Definition:

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"Cultivate admiration?" is that what he is attempting to do???? Boy, does he need to go to charm school!!! All I've seen him cultivate is people who dislike him...