Saw This On Facebook -- Supposed Top 10 Christian Cliches!

Hi to my Forum Friends,

Recently I saw this on Facebook -- and not sure I agree completely with the FaithIt folks.   This is what that web site tells us -- and my thoughts on each one:

 

Top 10 Christian Cliches We Should Probably Stop Using –

Unless We Really Mean It

http://www.faithit.com/top-10-...s-we-really-mean-it/

"Here are ten phrases we often use in the church that could be in danger of losing their meaning (Oh, and some of them are just wrong).  Check out the list and see what you think."

Okay, let's take a look at that Top Ten through Bill Gray's eyes:

1.  Bless your heart!

 

Not Christian!  That's a Southern Thang (or thing to y'all who are not blessed to be Southern)!

 

2.  I'll Pray For you!

 

I agree!  If you don't mean it -- don't say it!

 

3. I Don't Feel Led!

 

Typically this is most often heard from a devout "couch potato" Christian!

 

 4.  Hedge Of Protection!

 

Never heard that one.  And not sure I would know what it meant if I did.

 

 5.  When God Closes A Door -- He Opens A Window!

 

Well, that most often is true.  However, if we are hiding in the closet -- we will never see the window opened!

 

 6.   My Walk With God!   

 

If a person is a Christian believer -- and not walking with God, we need to have a talk!

 

 7.  Overusing "Father God" In Prayer! 

  

AMEN!  AMEN!  AMEN!  Nothing is more distracting that hearing that every four words.

 

 8. Ask Jesus Into Your Heart! 

  

I have always believed it was the thought that counts.  So, however we say it -- THAT is the most important advise we can give to a non-believer!

 

9.  After All, It Was Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve!

 

I don't believe I have ever heard truer words.   But, once again, it is a matter of how we tell folks that the homosexual lifestyle is not, and will never be, God's norm.  We don't adapt God to society's norm -- we adapt society to God's norm!

 

10.  The Lord Never Gives You More Than You Can Handle!

 

Should we believe the Bible -- or not?  1 Corinthians 10:13, "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

 

Well, folks, now you have my thoughts on these supposed"no-no" Christian phrases.  And, I will agree with the original thought expressed by the writer -- if you don't mean it, don't say it!

However, a number of these are SO important -- that we would be negligent if we do not, in some way, express them to non-believers.  

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

1 - Bible_Open-FAMILY-GROW

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Bill,  Regarding this cliche':

 

 "8. Ask Jesus Into Your Heart! "

 

You say:  

  

I have always believed it was the thought that counts.  So, however we say it -- THAT is the most important advise we can give to a non-believer!

 

Tell us, Bill, where does your Bible say anything about asking Jesus into one's heart? If that is the most important advise [sic] you can give a non-Christian, then you should be able to show that non-Christian where, in the Bible (and not in some compendium of trite evangelical buzz phrases), he or anyone else is told to ask Jesus into his heart.

 

There were many non-Christians present on the Day of Pentecost, A.D. 33 when the inspired apostle Peter was asked by some lost and aggrieved sinners, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"  If he had followed your "advise", he would have told them to "ask Jesus to come into your heart," but he did no such thing.  Instead he told them to "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for  the remission of sins...."

 

Yes, that business of asking Jesus to come into one's heart is indeed a cliche', and it is a cliche' of non-Biblical origins.  The Divine plan for salvation of lost sinners nowhere in scripture

levies that particular requirement, irrespective of how popular it might have become in the parlance of certain careless evangelicals who value the trite epigrams of their  truncated soteriology over  the plain teaching of the Word.

Hi Contendah,

 

You are right.  I used the verb "advise" instead of the noun "advice."   Can you believe it?  The first mistake I have made this year!   How will I ever recover?  Smile, God loves us all.

 

My Friend, you seem to be bothered that I suggest that Christians should invite Jesus Christ into their hearts.  I could have said into their lives.  But, for me, those are the same.  If we have Jesus Christ in our hearts -- He will surely be in our lives, in our daily Christian walk.

 

And, I would suggest that is what Jesus Christ means when He gives His Great Commission to all believers:  "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH THEM. . .  Be My witnesses in ALL the world"  (Matthew 28:19-20,  Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).  He is most certainly telling us to take His Gospel to all the non-believers of the world.

 

Just curious.  How would YOU tell a non-believer he/she needs to have a personal, saving relationship with Jesus Christ?    How would YOU witness to that non-believer?   OR, would you?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

John 14-6 - All Roads Don't Lead To God

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Bill, 

 

I would tell him/her  the same thing that the Apostle Peter told those anguished folks on Pentecost, A.D. 33 (See Acts 2:37-39). Why would you NOT tell them that?

 

Your theology would have had those Pentecostians already saved and in no need to beseech the apostle as to what they needed to do.  Your theology says that lost persons are saved at the point of belief in Jesus as the Son of God.  Peter did not have to tell his hearers to   "believe" because it was what they already believed that gave them so much anguish of spirit. They believed Peter when he told them that they were responsible for crucifying the very Son of God. Thus they asked what they needed to do. If Peter shared your theology, he would have told them that they already were saved, since they believed that Jesus was the Son of God, which they obviously did. But he told them to do two more things--to repent and be baptized.   I would cite also the example of Saul on the road to Damascus (See Acts 9:1-19 and Acts 22:16).  Confronted by the Lord Himself, ("Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me>"), Saul realized that he--like those Pentecostians had made himself the enemy of the Son of God.  In similar anguish, he cried, "Lord, what shall I do." If Jesus held to the same theology as you do, Bill, he would have told Saul that since he "believed", he was now saved.  But Jesus did not say that.  Instead he sent Saul to the house of Ananias, where "you will be told what you must do." He was indeed told what he must do, by Ananias:  "And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins." You and all too many other liberalizing evangelicals, with your "just believe and you will be saved" theology have rejected the teaching of an apostle of Jesus Christ speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit and the clear teaching in the account of Saul's (Paul's) salvation event.  Time for some repentance from YOU, Bill.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Yes, I know what Peter and the apostles told the people in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD.

 

However, I am interested in what Contendah 2014 AD would tell folks who do not believe.

 

In YOUR own words, how would YOU tell a non-believer that he/she needs to have a relationship with Jesus Christ so that he/she can have eternal life in Him?   In your own words; but feel free to quote Scripture in support of YOUR own words.

 

You keep saying that I am wrong.  But, how can you say that I am wrong -- when YOU cannot tell us what YOU would say in that same situation?   If you cannot tell us that, you have no position to stand upon to say that I am wrong.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Yes, I know what Peter and the apostles told the people in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD.

 

However, I am interested in what Contendah 2014 AD would tell folks who do not believe.

 

In YOUR own words, how would YOU tell a non-believer that he/she needs to have a relationship with Jesus Christ so that he/she can have eternal life in Him?   In your own words; but feel free to quote Scripture in support of YOUR own words.

 

You keep saying that I am wrong.  But, how can you say that I am wrong -- when YOU cannot tell us what YOU would say in that same situation?   If you cannot tell us that, you have no position to stand upon to say that I am wrong.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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I would do what I have done before.  I would go to the scriptures with them and "tell them the story of Jesus" and in that I would make every effort to show them that He is indeed the Son of God and that He can be their Redeemer if they will allow Him to be, for the Jesus I know never forced Himself or his teachings on anyone. I would show them what the will of Jesus is for them, including the very clear teaching of the New Testament concerning what they need to do in order to be saved in heaven eternally.  Should they come to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, I would  tell them no more and no less than the same things Peter told those anguished sinners on that first Day of Pentecost following the death of Jesus. I would show them from Acts Chapter 2, verses 36-41 and from Acts 22:10-16 what penitent believers were called upon to do in order to be saved and I would urge them to do those same things. I would read with them the clear teaching of Romans 6: 1-11 concerning baptism and at that point, I would hope that they would see clearly what they needed to do in order to "walk in newness of life" (v 4).  I would NOT tell them to pray anything like the "sinner's prayer" so often enjoined upon folks seeking salvation, because I can find no place in my Bible where Jesus, his apostles, any evangelist, teacher or any other person ever instructed a lost sinner to say a prayer of any kind as a prerequisite to salvation. I would advise him that those who do insist upon a "sinner's prayer" are teaching something not taught in scripture and that such folks might correctly be described as liberals to be avoided. Having thus advised such a person, and upon his following the clear teaching of scripture concerning God's plan of salvation, I would conclude that he had established a relationship with Christ, a relationship based on what the Bible teaches rather than upon the convenient, truncated false doctrines so prevalent in so much of the teaching of evangelical churches of today.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You say, "I would show them what the will of Jesus is for them, including the very clear teaching of the New Testament concerning what they need to do in order to be saved in heaven eternally."

 

How would you fit Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 6:47, and John 10:28-29 into that discussion?   Or would you?  Keep in mind that these teachings are also part of Scripture.  And, none of these Scripture verses/passages contradict the verses/passages you suggest.  The complement and complete the teachings of those verses/passages.

 

You seem to offer an incomplete Scriptural picture of salvation.  And, keep in mind that we CANNOT skip over or omit ANY part of Scripture if we are to have a true Christian theology.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You say, "I would show them what the will of Jesus is for them, including the very clear teaching of the New Testament concerning what they need to do in order to be saved in heaven eternally."

 

How would you fit Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 6:47, and John 10:28-29 into that discussion?   Or would you?  Keep in mind that these teachings are also part of Scripture.  And, none of these Scripture verses/passages contradict the verses/passages you suggest.  The complement and complete the teachings of those verses/passages.

 

You seem to offer an incomplete Scriptural picture of salvation.  And, keep in mind that we CANNOT skip over or omit ANY part of Scripture if we are to have a true Christian theology.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bible - 66 BOOKS

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Bill, are you a bit addled?

 

Those scriptures you cite are some of the ones you use in attempted defense of your OSAS belief, but do not have anything to do with how a lost person gets into Christ to begin with--which was the subject of this discussion.  The scriptures I used in my reply to you answered your question precisely.  I told you what I would tell a non-believer and how I would counsel with him/her regarding the sonship of Christ the Savior and what he/she needed to do in order to have his/her sins remitted and enter into the relationship with Christ that is set forth in scripture.

 

You have not even begun to rebut the arguments I have advanced from Acts 2 and Acts 8 and Acts 22 and Romans 6.  You apparently continue to hold to the notion that only simple belief in Jesus as the Son of God is necessary for salvation.  I showed you that the sinners at Pentecost had come to belief in Jesus but were still anguished, knowing they had committed sin worthy of condemnation.  That is why they asked, "What shall we do?"  You and those like-minded with you would simply have told them to "just believe on Jesus and take Him as your Savior."  Peter gave no such instructions.  Could that be because he was speaking under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and you draw upon some other source for your authority?  Jesus told Saul on the road to Damascus to go to the city and he would be told "what thou MUST DO."  NKJV Acts 9:6).  When Saul (Paul) got to that city, God's appointed agent, Ananias, told him what he MUST DO and that was, "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." He did not tell Saul that he was already in good standing with God on the basis of his belief in Jesus.  He did not tell Paul to ask Jesus to come into his heart.  He commanded him to be baptized in order to wash away his sins.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You tell me, "Those scriptures you cite are some of the ones you use in attempted defense of your OSAS belief, but do not have anything to do with how a lost person gets into Christ to begin with--which was the subject of this discussion."

 

 My  Friend, let's take a look at those Scripture verses which YOU say have NOTHING to do with salvation:

 

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

That verse tells me that the person who hears the Gospel, and through hearing that Gospel -- believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ -- is saved, indwelled, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Sound like salvation to me.


Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

This verse tells us that when that person who heard the Gospel and believed was saved -- that person was indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption -- the day that believer dies in this mortal body or is raptured from this mortal body.


Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

This Scripture passage tells us that, by the grace of God this believer has been saved through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING else, for it is a gift from God and not a result of any work that believer could do or may have done.


John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

 

Then, Jesus affirms those Ephesians passages when He tells us that the person who has believed in Him HAS eternal life.


John 10:28-29, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

Then, Jesus puts a cork in the bottle when He tells us that NO ONE, not even the believer himself/herself -- can snatch that believer out of God's hands.   That, my Friend, is most certainly salvation.  And, that is most certainly eternally secure salvation.

 

So, yes, these Scripture passages do complement and complete those you suggested in bringing the message of salvation to the lost of the world.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You tell me, "Those scriptures you cite are some of the ones you use in attempted defense of your OSAS belief, but do not have anything to do with how a lost person gets into Christ to begin with--which was the subject of this discussion."

 

 My  Friend, let's take a look at those Scripture verses which YOU say have NOTHING to do with salvation:

 

Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

That verse tells me that the person who hears the Gospel, and through hearing that Gospel -- believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ -- is saved, indwelled, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Sound like salvation to me.


Ephesians 4:30, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

This verse tells us that when that person who heard the Gospel and believed was saved -- that person was indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption -- the day that believer dies in this mortal body or is raptured from this mortal body.


Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

This Scripture passage tells us that, by the grace of God this believer has been saved through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus NOTHING else, for it is a gift from God and not a result of any work that believer could do or may have done.


John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

 

Then, Jesus affirms those Ephesians passages when He tells us that the person who has believed in Him HAS eternal life.


John 10:28-29, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

 

Then, Jesus puts a cork in the bottle when He tells us that NO ONE, not even the believer himself/herself -- can snatch that believer out of God's hands.   That, my Friend, is most certainly salvation.  And, that is most certainly eternally secure salvation.

 

So, yes, these Scripture passages do complement and complete those you suggested in bringing the message of salvation to the lost of the world.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

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You  begin, Bill Gray, by craftily distorting what I said in the post to which you offer your lame reply.

 

You claim that I define certain scriptures as having  "NOTHING to do with salvation:"

 

What I actually referred to was certain scriptures that  "do not have anything to do with "how a lost person gets into Christ to begin with."

 

There is a difference between the two and I shall exemplify that difference by citing you to an example from scripture, namely Hebrews 3:1 and 3:12-15.

 

The chapter begins (v.3) with an address to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling." Thus there is absolutely no question about whether saved persons (“Christian believers,” to employ your preferred frame of reference) are being addressed here.

 

Does Paul consider these "holy brethren" to be saved unequivocally, unconditionally, without any concern that such "holy brethren" could lapse into a condition that could separate them from their first love and cause them to depart from the God to whom they committed their lives and souls when they first became Christian believers?  Verses 12-14 powerfully suggest otherwise.  Thus I reproduce them below in whole from the KJV:  Note that this warning is addressed to “brethren” (v. 12), there being absolutely no doubt that the persons addressed are the same as those “holy brethren” of v.3.

 

12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

13. But exhort one another daily,. While it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14. For we have become partakers of Christifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end....”

 

Is Paul wasting ink and paper describing something that could not possibly happen?  There is no credible way to deny that those “holy brethren,” those Christian believers, were saved persons.  In no way would the inspired apostle describe unsaved persons as “holy brethren.” Yet he clearly contemplates the possibility of their acquiring “an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”  Those “believers” could become unbelievers, thereby “departing from the living God.” 

If it were indeed impossible for those “holy brethren” to lapse into unbelief, what would be the sense of Paul’s warning? 

 

Why would the apostle caution them to exhort one another “lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin” if it was impossible for them to be so deceived?

 

The “holy brethren” were ”partakers of Christ”, but that ethereal status was conditional.  That  if in verse 14 expresses something that is conditional.  That is what “if” is always about, Bill.  A thing that is absolutely certain is not qualified by “if,” but Paul here uses the conditional if as he defines what is involved in continuing to be “partakers of Christ.”

 

In the remainder of his discourse, in the later part of chapter 3 and continuing into chapter 4, Paul crafts an analogy between those Israelites who failed to enter into the promised land because of their disobedience (4:6) and those of his “holy brethren” whom he warns thusly (4:11):  “Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after that example of disobedience.” “[T]hat rest” to which the apostle refers is obviously the rest he describes in 4:9: “There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.”  That ‘rest” can be nothing but the ultimate salvation of those to whom God gives eternal salvation.   But Paul clearly admits of the possibility that some of those “holy brethren” could “fall after that example of disobedience.” Again, is the apostle contemplating something that can not possibly occur?  Is he describing something that is impossible of happening, but that nevertheless the “holy brethren” to whom he writes need to be so very diligent about avoiding?

 

Bill, you and others of the OSAS persuasion are fond of citing Ephesians 1:13 as a proof text for your Calvinistic perseverance belief.  You wrote above:

 

“Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

That verse tells me that the person who hears the Gospel, and through hearing that Gospel -- believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ -- is saved, indwelled, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Sound [sic] like salvation to me.

 

 

I would encourage you to continue reading through verse 14 to get the full sense of what the apostle is teaching here.  The apostle writes this:

 1:14.    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased    possession, to the praise of his glory.””

 

The “earnest” to which Paul refers is the Greek ”arrabon”, a word that Thayer (1963 printing, page 75) defines as “money which in purchases is given as a pledge that the full amount will subsequently be paid.”  The pledge here is God’s promise of salvation, but that pledge is an inherent element of a covenant, the New Covenant in Christ.  God’s covenant includes promises upon which God will deliver, but those promises are not unconditional.    A covenant, by definition, involves at least two parties, each of which has obligations defined in the terms of the covenant.  God will keep his part of the covenant that he makes with Christian believers, but it remains possible, as we have seen above from Hebrews 3 and 4, for man to violate his part of the covenant, thus invalidating the covenant, as in “departing from the living God” (Hebrews 3:12).

 

Paul once more in the book of Hebrews confirms the possibility of apostasy.  Hebrews 6:4-6, without question (other than the desperate, circumlocutory contrivances perpetrated upon it by Calvinists) describes the sad fate of those who “fall away”:

 

  1. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  2. And have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
  3. If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

 

With conscienceless shabbiness and patently dishonest hermeneutics, the OSAS crowd will try to torque these verses as describing those who “were never saved in the first place,” notwithstanding that such persons were at some time “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” that same Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) that is “the earnest of our inheritance.”

 

Go figure.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You tell me:

 

The chapter begins (v.3) with an address to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling." Thus there is absolutely no question about whether saved persons (“Christian believers,” to employ your preferred frame of reference) are being addressed here.

 

Does Paul consider these "holy brethren" to be saved unequivocally, unconditionally, without any concern that such "holy brethren" could lapse into a condition that could separate them from their first love and cause them to depart from the God to whom they committed their lives and souls when they first became Christian believers?  Verses 12-14 powerfully suggest otherwise.  Thus I reproduce them below in whole from the KJV:  Note that this warning is addressed to “brethren” (v. 12), there being absolutely no doubt that the persons addressed are the same as those “holy brethren” of v.3.

 

Have you ever addressed a church group, i.e., a local fellowship?   Did you begin with, "Brothers and sisters (i.e., brethren)"?   Would you declare upon your soul that ALL the people in the audience were truly believers?  Or could some of them have been attending that church -- and still not yet be believers?

 

How many pastors and speakers have you heard begin a message in a church fellowship, "Brothers and sisters. . . "   Was everyone in that congregation a true believer -- or could some have been only social believers?

 

The same thing with Paul.  He addressed a group which he believed to be all believers.  But, was everyone a believer?   Keep in mind that shortly after Paul left, often false teachers jumped right in and started preaching false doctrines.

 

So, when we read of Paul:

 

12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

13. But exhort one another daily,. While it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14. For we have become partakers of Christifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end....”

 

Could he have had that same thought in mind -- that although he addressed the group as brethren -- that some in that group might not yet really be believers -- and those could be led astray and have a hardened heart?   Something to consider.

 

My Friend, you are so intent upon proving Bill Gray wrong -- that I believe you lose sight of the big picture.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

You tell me:

 

The chapter begins (v.3) with an address to "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling." Thus there is absolutely no question about whether saved persons (“Christian believers,” to employ your preferred frame of reference) are being addressed here.

 

Does Paul consider these "holy brethren" to be saved unequivocally, unconditionally, without any concern that such "holy brethren" could lapse into a condition that could separate them from their first love and cause them to depart from the God to whom they committed their lives and souls when they first became Christian believers?  Verses 12-14 powerfully suggest otherwise.  Thus I reproduce them below in whole from the KJV:  Note that this warning is addressed to “brethren” (v. 12), there being absolutely no doubt that the persons addressed are the same as those “holy brethren” of v.3.

 

Have you ever addressed a church group, i.e., a local fellowship?   Did you begin with, "Brothers and sisters (i.e., brethren)"?   Would you declare upon your soul that ALL the people in the audience were truly believers?  Or could some of them have been attending that church -- and still not yet be believers?

 

How many pastors and speakers have you heard begin a message in a church fellowship, "Brothers and sisters. . . "   Was everyone in that congregation a true believer -- or could some have been only social believers?

 

The same thing with Paul.  He addressed a group which he believed to be all believers.  But, was everyone a believer?   Keep in mind that shortly after Paul left, often false teachers jumped right in and started preaching false doctrines.

 

So, when we read of Paul:

 

12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

13. But exhort one another daily,. While it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14. For we have become partakers of Christifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end....”

 

Could he have had that same thought in mind -- that although he addressed the group as brethren -- that some in that group might not yet really be believers -- and those could be led astray and have a hardened heart?   Something to consider.

 

My Friend, you are so intent upon proving Bill Gray wrong -- that I believe you lose sight of the big picture.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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How very widely you again miss the mark, Bill. And if anyone is refusing to see the "big picture", it is Bill Gray.

 

The POINT is that Paul’s remarks were addressed to "holy brethren" to exhort them against "departing from the living God."   Is it likely that Paul considered himself to be addressing those who had never come to a saving relationship with God?  Can one depart from that which one never embraced?  Even if I should accept your assumption that both "holy brethren" and unsaved persons were included in those to whom he wrote (which I do not), I can not logically escape the fact that those "holy brethren" among Paul's readers, however many or few, had not, in Paul's understanding, departed from the Living God; that they were subjects of God's grace, but that it was nevertheless appropriate to warn them, for he. admonished them to, "Take heed, brethren ,lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.  

 

Your presumptuous characterization of Paul's audience as a divided configuration--some saved and some unsaved--thus fails to deal honestly with the undeniable FACT that his warning was inclusive of all to whom he addressed it--and that "all" includes the "holy brethren", the "Christian believers.", whether or not it included any unsaved.

 

I note that you elected not to deal with my second issue, namely that in the sixth chapter of Hebrews, there are those described as having been “partakers of the Holy Ghost”, but who are said to become incapable of repentance should they “fall away.”  Thus, even though they. as with every Christian believer, had received the Holy Ghost as the “earnest of [their] inheritance” (Ephesians 1::14),  by their subsequent actions, they had “crucifi[ed] to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”  Your OSAS theology would find nothing in that rejection of the Savior that would place their souls in jeopardy, so ensnared are you in your embrace of the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance.  Think about it, Bill.  The scriptures confirm, without question, that a person who at one time received the Holy Ghost can indeed subsequently come to so self-willed an alienation of him/self from love and loyalty to Jesus Christ as to behave such that he “crucifi[ies] the Son of God afresh, and  put[s] him to an open shame.” To deny that,. Blll, in the face of the clear teaching of the inspired word, is not only quirky, twisted theology; it smacks of blasphemy, characterizing God’s soteriological relationship with man as something that it decidedly is not!

Contendah, my Friend,

 

If you walked into a church, any church in any city, to address them, I imagine you would begin be greeting them, "Brothers and sisters. . . "    Most folks would.

 

Do YOU honestly believe that every church is 100% true believers?   Are you that naive?   Well, neither was Paul.  Yet, he wanted to give them a Christian greeting, so he began by addressing them as "Brethren."

 

Yet, Paul shows that he was not as naive as you, for this is what we read:

 

12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

13. But exhort one another daily,. While it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14. For we have become partakers of Christif we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end....”

 

Seems that old Paul knew there were some sitting there who were just social seat-warmers.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

If you walked into a church, any church in any city, to address them, I imagine you would begin be greeting them, "Brothers and sisters. . . "    Most folks would.

 

Do YOU honestly believe that every church is 100% true believers?   Are you that naive?   Well, neither was Paul.  Yet, he wanted to give them a Christian greeting, so he began by addressing them as "Brethren."

 

Yet, Paul shows that he was not as naive as you, for this is what we read:

 

12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

13. But exhort one another daily,. While it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14. For we have become partakers of Christif we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end....”

 

Seems that old Paul knew there were some sitting there who were just social seat-warmers.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

____

Bill,  It is transparently obvious that you have not at all addressed the issues I raised concerning your OSAS perspectives on the several verses I referenced.  I showed you why it mattered not at all whether the recipients of the Hebrews letter included some who were not saved.  The fact is that it most certainly included saved persons ("holy brethren") and that his advice was intended for them.  You utterly bypass the fact that one can not  depart "from the living God" unless one is first a child of that same living God. And you very obviously do not wish to deal with the argument I submitted to you relative to Hebrews 6, where certain  "partakers of the Holy Ghost" (and thus indisputable "Christian believers") are clearly contemplated by the writer as impossible of being renewed to repentance if they "fall away." Why would the inspired writer have described that kind of apostasy if it could not possibly happen?

 

Paul was not at all naive and neither am I.  It is your naivete', Bill, coupled with your your preconceived Calvinistic notion of perseverance, that impels you to dodge and weave and put up such shabby indefensible and failed "justification" for that OSAS nonsense.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Must be because it is Monday that your thinking is so muddled.  First, you bring up the issue of Paul addressing folks as "brethren" when he addresses the local church fellowship.

 

When I address that issue, you switch gears, or whatever, and begin to sob, "Bill,  It is transparently obvious that you have not at all addressed the issues I raised concerning your OSAS perspectives"

 

My Friend, make up your mind which issue you want to address -- and we will discuss that issue.  But, I am sorry, I cannot see through your Herbert W. Armstrong muddled mind to know that when you write about Paul and "brethren" -- somewhere back in your mind you were really thinking about the issue of "eternal security."

 

So, when you clear your thinking so that we know which page you are on -- we can continue.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Friends_Piggy_Bear_TEXT

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Must be because it is Monday that your thinking is so muddled.  First, you bring up the issue of Paul addressing folks as "brethren" when he addresses the local church fellowship.

 

When I address that issue, you switch gears, or whatever, and begin to sob, "Bill,  It is transparently obvious that you have not at all addressed the issues I raised concerning your OSAS perspectives"

 

My Friend, make up your mind which issue you want to address -- and we will discuss that issue.  But, I am sorry, I cannot see through your Herbert W. Armstrong muddled mind to know that when you write about Paul and "brethren" -- somewhere back in your mind you were really thinking about the issue of "eternal security."

 

So, when you clear your thinking so that we know which page you are on -- we can continue.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

 

Bill, 

You are some kind  of drooling fool if you actually think that your silly "responses", above, in any way contribute meaningfully to the discussion.  You have inartfully, but transparently, dodged the very damaging points I made against your OSAS Calvinistic heresy.  Those following this thread can readily see that if you can not.  The obvious conclusion is that you are running away from any substantive discussion, having been whipped like a borrowed mule.

 

I am through with you on this one-way street of a discussion

Contendah, my Friend,

 

If you wanted to discuss "eternal security" -- you should have been more clear.  When you bring up the issue of Paul and "brethren" -- I have to assume that is what you want to discuss.

 

My Friend, it seems like you are pointing to the left -- and saying, "Turn right."

 

However, if you are truly interested in discussing "eternal security" -- why have you been ignoring the discussion I began on that subject three days ago?

 

Does the man speak with forked tongue -- or with muddled thinking?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bless My Friend Mouse

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

If you wanted to discuss "eternal security" -- you should have been more clear.  When you bring up the issue of Paul and "brethren" -- I have to assume that is what you want to discuss.

 

My Friend, it seems like you are pointing to the left -- and saying, "Turn right."

 

However, if you are truly interested in discussing "eternal security" -- why have you been ignoring the discussion I began on that subject three days ago?

 

Does the man speak with forked tongue -- or with muddled thinking?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

___

Bill,

 

With each successive post, you show yourself to be more confused.  It was YOU who introduced the OSAS business into  this string.  You did so in your fourth post, above, where you piled on these favorite verses (attempted "proof texts") of the OSAS persuasion:

 

"How would you fit Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 6:47, and John 10:28-29 into that discussion?   Or would you?  Keep in mind that these teachings are also part of Scripture.  And, none of these Scripture verses/passages contradict the verses/passages you suggest.  The [sic] complement and complete the teachings of those verses/passages."

 

In subsequent discussion, you have totally declined to answer the arguments I made showing that there is indeed a possibility for a Christian to sin so as to be lost.

 

Your misunderstanding of scripture concerning "eternal security" arises from your insistence that a saved person is absolutely unconditionally saved.  The passages I discussed demonstrate clearly that this is not so.  You and other OSASers dwell on words like "sealed" and "earnest" without recognizing that in discussions involving these concepts, the salvific and preservative actions contemplated are those of God.  You refuse to recognize that God, in our age and time,as in every age and time, deals with His creature, man, within a covenant relationship the terms of which are set forth by God..  God will NOT break that covenant, but men sometimes do, and in so doing, by their own free will, abrogate the covenant and forfeit their salvation. 

 

You can not just cavalierly dismiss the powerful teaching of scriptures such as Hebrews 6: 1-6 and  Hebrews  3, which without question describe the apostasy that can ensue when man so sins as to depart from the living God (see Heb. 3:12).  Your flawed strategy is to insist that those scriptures could not possibly be describing a Christian who has lost his salvation since there are other scriptures that counter-argue that point.  But those other scriptures--your favorite OSAS attempted proof texts--don't work that way unless you read into them something that is not there, namely that they teach an absolute and unconditional guarantee of salvation of the "Christian believer".  They do not do that, Bill, and it will not do for you to continue to play little puerile word games in an attempt to make them say what they do not.

 

God's warranty is a limited warranty, Bill. He assures the saved person that He (God) will keep his part of the covenant, but the "Christian believer" has covenant  obligations as well and when he defaults on these, the covenant is broken, notwithstanding the faithfulness of God to keep His part.

 

Just try, Bill, to deal with the fact situation in Hebrews 6, where the writer identifies persons who have become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and who nevertheless is found to be in such a spiritual state that he is said to crucify afresh the Son of God and put him to an open shame".

 

You have thus far shown by your continued silence that you are not able to cobble up even a lame defense of your OSASness that would overcome that  compelling characterization of just how a saved person indeed can become lost!

 

 

 

"

Contendah, my Friend,

 

In my initial post, I wrote:

 

 8. Ask Jesus Into Your Heart! 

  

I have always believed it was the thought that counts.  So, however we say it -- THAT is the most important advise we can give to a non-believer!

 

And, you respond:

 

Tell us, Bill, where does your Bible say anything about asking Jesus into one's heart? If that is the most important advise [sic] you can give a non-Christian, then you should be able to show that non-Christian where, in the Bible (and not in some compendium of trite evangelical buzz phrases), he or anyone else is told to ask Jesus into his heart.

 

Glad you asked! 

 

Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door (He wants to come into your heart, the door of your soul) and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

 

In the Jewish culture of that day, the most intimate thing one could do with others -- was to dine with then, have fellowship with them.  That is what Jesus Christ is saying to every non-believer, "I want to come into your heart and be your intimate Friend, to be your very Best Friend."

 

I like the way that David Guzik explains this Scripture passage:

 

David Guzik, Study Guide for Revelation 3
http://www.blbclassic.org/comm...amp;topic=Revelation

 

e. Behold, I stand at the door and knock: Jesus gives to this lukewarm church The Great Invitation. He knocks at the door, asking entry to come and dine with us, in the sense of sharing warm, intimate time. It only happens as we respond to His knock, but the promise is made to all: If anyone hears my voice.

 

i. The idea of Jesus at the door applies to the sinner and to the saint just the same. Jesus wants to come in to us, and dine with us, in the sense of having a deep, intimate relationship.

 

ii. I stand at the door: Sadly, Jesus stands on the outside, knocking to get in.  If the church at Philadelphia was "The Church of the Open Door," then the church at Laodicea is "The Church of the Shut Out Jesus."

 

iii. I stand at the door and knock … If anyone hears My voice and opens the door: This statement of Jesus expresses a profound mystery. Why does Jesus stand outside the door?  Why does He knock?  Why does He wait until someone opens the door? Doesn't He have every right to break down the door, or enter some other way on His own accord? But He doesn't.  The sovereign, omnipotent Jesus has condescended to work out His eternal plan by wooing the cooperation of the human heart.

 

iv. "The occupant must open the door.  That is, he must repent of his pride and self-sufficiency, his human wisdom, and his cowardly neutrality." (Morris)

 

v. "Christ stands - waits long, at the door of the sinner's heart; he knocks - uses judgments, mercies, reproofs, exhortations, to induce sinners to repent and turn to him; he lifts up his voice - calls loudly by his word, ministers, and Spirit." (Clarke)

 

vi. Jesus comes to the door as the lover in the Song of Solomon.  This is similar to - or perhaps a quotation of - Song of Solomon 5:2: It is the voice of my beloved! He knocks, saying, 'open for me, my sister, my love.

 

vii. The key to opening the door is to first hear His voice.  When we give attention to what Jesus says, then we can be rescued from our own lukewarmness and enter into a "zealous" relationship with Him.

 

f.  I will come into him: What a glorious promise!  If we open the door, He will come in.  He won't ring the bell and run away.  He promises to come in, and then to dine with the believer.

 

i. When Jesus says dine with him, He speaks of a specific meal known as the deipnon. "The deipnon was the main meal of the day and was a leisurely affair, not a hurried snack." (Morris)  This speaks of fellowship.  This speaks of a depth to the relationship.

 

ii. "Supper (deipnon) was the main meal of the day.  This was the meal at which a man sat and talked for long, for now there was time, for work was ended … it is not a mere courtesy visit, paid in the passing, which Jesus Christ offers to us.  He desires to come in and to sit long with us, and to wait as long as we wish him to wait." (Barclay)

 

iii. This is where Jesus wants us, in the place of fellowship with Him.  Everything He said to the Laodicean church up to this point must be seen in light of this loving desire for fellowship. "Rebuke and chastisement are no signs of rejection from Christ, but of His abiding and pleading love, even to the lukewarm and careless." (Alford)

 

g. If anyone:  Notice that Jesus gives the call to individuals.  He didn't say, "If any church," but if anyone"We must not talk about setting the church right, we must pray for grace each one for himself, for the text does not say, 'If the church will open the door,' but 'If any man hear my voice and open the door.'   It must be done by individuals: the church will only get right by each man getting right." (Spurgeon)

 

So, Contendah, my Freind, you ask me, "Tell us, Bill, where does your Bible say anything about asking Jesus into one's heart?" 

 

So, I ask you, "How do YOU witness to a non-believer?"  Or, do you?

 

Are you one of those "couch potato" Christians who declares, "If anyone wants to know about Jesus, he will ask me!  If he doesn't ask me, I will not share Jesus with him!  I will NOT force my beliefs on someone else!"

 

Is that your way of being His witness in all the world (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15) -- "I'll sit on my couch and wait for someone to ask me!" ?

 

If so, I am afraid you are suffering from a very bad case of "spiritual constipation" -- everything going in, and nothing going out!

 

But, I pray that I have answered your question about asking Jesus into our hearts and where to find that in Scripture.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

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Bill Gray,

 

First of all, Bill, the verse you cite (Rev. 20:3) does not describe the prayer or other request of any MAN. It describes the standing invitation of Jesus Christ.   Your man Guzik says about this that:  "Notice that Jesus gives the call to individuals." I agree, but I must point out that which you have missed, namely that the call is FROM Jesus TO lost mankind, not a request FROM lost mankind TO Jesus.  Guzik writes, "The key to opening the door is to first hear His voice."  In your concept of "asking Jesus to come into your heart,"   the voice is  the supposed voice of the lost sinner calling Jesus, whereas in Rev. 3:20, the voice is that of Jesus calling the lost sinner. You have constructed a scenario in which the relationship is initiated by man; Rev. 3:20 describes an invitation initiated by Jesus.

 

You have gotten it backwards, Bill, in your desperate search for something--anything--to support your contention that a sinner is expected and obliged to "ask Jesus to come into your heart."

The asking, the inviting are done by Jesus; in the best of outcomes, the answer is that of the lost person who heeds the entreaty of the Savior. 

 

Once more you have put up some smoke to dodge the question I have persistently placed before you, Bill.  Your performance is very much like that of the student who encounters an examination question that he can not handle, and who instead puts up a lot of text that really does not answer the question, in hopes that the Professor will not notice that the answer is not there.

 

Here it is again, Bill, that question and challenge that give you so much hermeneutical heartburn that you have several times avoided it and instead spun off peripheral texts that do not address the question at all:

 

Just try, Bill, to deal with the fact situation in Hebrews 6, where the writer identifies persons who have become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and who nevertheless are found to be in such a spiritual state that they are said to "crucify afresh the Son of God and put him to an open shame".

 

You have thus far shown by your continued silence that you are not able to cobble up even a lame defense of your OSASness that would overcome that compelling characterization of just how a saved person indeed can become lost!

 

We wait to see whether you will man up and attempt to answer this question, but on the basis of your past performance, we are not holding out breath.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Okay, let's assume that you are right and that a person is not suppose to pray to Jesus and invite Him into his/her life.

 

Then, will YOU please explain how a person does attain eternal salvation?

 

Or, do you believe that a person CANNOT attain eternal salvation?

 

Since I am wrong -- PLEASE tell us how salvation is attained.

 

Or will you just ignore that -- and start harping on how I missed YOUR questions?   I have often heard that a strong defense is the best offense.   And, you, my Friend, prove that in spades.   YOU always tell others that they are wrong -- but, you will NEVER tell us what YOU think is right.

 

WHY?  Do you NOT know what is right?  So, you just concentrate on trying to prove others wrong? 

 

Will you do that when you stand before Jesus Christ?  Will you start with, "Well, You never answered my questions!  All You do is give us silly, asinine statements!"   Yes, I can just see the smile on His face now -- when you try your childish avoidance game with Him.

 

And, by the way, it is Revelation 3:20 -- not Revelation 20:3!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Rev-3-20-3

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Contendah, my Friend,

 

Since you will not believe nor accept anything I write as being valid, let me offer you the writing of another Christian who is much more mature than me, Charles Stanley.  The following article is based upon his writing regarding Hebrews 6:4-6:

 

Question:  "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html


Answer: 
Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” 

 

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear -- it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.  There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians -- but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the Gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior.  They are intellectually persuaded -- but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth.  However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. 

 

For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man” -- but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved.  Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible.  This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ -- or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. 

 

The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group -- unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9).  This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the Gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. 

 

The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it.  They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously.  Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience.  They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies.  It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6).  The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: IF a Christian were to fall away . . .”  The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation.  That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).

 

The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.  This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ.  The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible.

 

Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.

Recommended Resources: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley

 

So, Contendah, my Friend, I pray this clears up any confusion you may have held regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 and the assumption that it negates the Biblical teaching of "eternal security" for all true believers.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 John 5-12 - Bible Inspired By God

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Since you will not believe nor accept anything I write as being valid, let me offer you the writing of another Christian who is much more mature than me, Charles Stanley.  The following article is based upon his writing regarding Hebrews 6:4-6:

 

Question:  "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html


Answer: 
Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” 

 

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear -- it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.  There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians -- but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the Gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior.  They are intellectually persuaded -- but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth.  However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. 

 

For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man” -- but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved.  Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible.  This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ -- or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. 

 

The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group -- unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9).  This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the Gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. 

 

The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it.  They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously.  Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience.  They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies.  It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF (verse 6).  The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: IF a Christian were to fall away . . .”  The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation.  That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again).

 

The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption.  This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ.  The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible.

 

Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.

Recommended Resources: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley

 

So, Contendah, my Friend, I pray this clears up any confusion you may have held regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 and the assumption that it negates the Biblical teaching of "eternal security" for all true believers.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

___

I note, Bill, that you have very carefully avoided addressing the import of the central element of my argument, namely that those to whom the inspired writer refers are described as those who were "partakers of the Holy Spirit."  Now, whatever interpretive and circuitous wrinkles and folds you (or OSASer Charles Stanley) might invoke with respect to any other parts of Hebrews 6, it remains that those persons condemned in this passage were, at some time, "PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST" and therefore authentic Christians.

 

If they were at some time "partakers of the Holy Ghost", then, per your interpretation, were they at that time saved persons or lost persons?  And if they were indeed saved in that period of their spiritual journey, how does it come about that through some circumstances of their later lives they could so profoundly sin as to "crucify for themselves afresh the Son of God and put Him to an open shame"?  Your argument relying on the "if" in verse 4 just will not stand, Bill, since that word does not appear in the Greek texts from which the King James version was translated.  The correct translation here is, "having fallen away", which is the "past participle" in the Greek, on a par with the other past participles in the list of characteristics describing these persons in verses 4 and 5.

 

 

Just try, Bill, to deal with the fact situation in Hebrews 6, where the writer identifies persons who have become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and who nevertheless are found later to be in such a spiritual state that they are said to "crucify afresh the Son of God and put him to an open shame".

 

I trust that this clears up the confusion YOU  have been suffering with in your attempted avoidance of the clear teaching of this passage.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

God back and start reading my post where it says:

 

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

 

And, you will find the answer you have avoided finding.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

God back and start reading my post where it says:

 

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

 

And, you will find the answer you have avoided finding.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

____

I read it before I made my last post, Bill, and your "other interpretation" is one that depends upon that "if" that is not there, as I pointed out above. You OSASers are pretty desperate when your interpretation depends upon the premise that an inspired writer is contemplating a situation that can not possibly occur.

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Has no one in your church fellowship (you do have a church fellowship, right?) -- ever heard of a rhetorical question?  That grammatical tool is used a number of times in Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament. 

 

Maybe you should go back and study how to recognize rhetorical questions and other methods of writing/figures of speech.  If I can help, let me know.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Has no one in your church fellowship (you do have a church fellowship, right?) -- ever heard of a rhetorical question?  That grammatical tool is used a number of times in Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament. 

 

Maybe you should go back and study how to recognize rhetorical questions and other methods of writing/figures of speech.  If I can help, let me know.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

___

But, Bill---there is NO question posed in the passage under discussion; thus there is no rhetorical question.  The condition of those who have fallen away  (Heb. 6:6) after having become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 6:4) is not stated as a question, but as a simple declaration.  You are "finding" a "question" that is nowhere to be found in the text. Where is the "question"?  Where is any question mark?  Not there, Bill, except in your desperate and disordered quest to defend your OSASism against the pure and clear teaching of the passage.

 

I know what a rhetorical question is, Bill.  It is you who apparently does not know what one is and it is you who badly need to study up and discover what a rhetorical question actually is.  To help you along, I suggest that you read I Corinthians 1:13, a short verse with not one, but three, actual rhetorical questions.

 

I discovered your latest blithering on this subject at a very opportune time, Bill.  Thanks for the lunch.

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Has no one in your church fellowship (you do have a church fellowship, right?) -- ever heard of a rhetorical question?  That grammatical tool is used a number of times in Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament. 

 

Maybe you should go back and study how to recognize rhetorical questions and other methods of writing/figures of speech.  If I can help, let me know.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

___

But, Bill---there is NO question posed in the passage under discussion; thus there is no rhetorical question.  The condition of those who have fallen away  (Heb. 6:6) after having become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 6:4) is not stated as a question, but as a simple declaration.  You are "finding" a "question" that is nowhere to be found in the text. Where is the "question"?  Where is any question mark?  Not there, Bill, except in your desperate and disordered quest to defend your OSASism against the pure and clear teaching of the passage.

 

I know what a rhetorical question is, Bill.  It is you who apparently does not know what one is and it is you who badly need to study up and discover what a rhetorical question actually is.  To help you along, I suggest that you read I Corinthians 1:13, a short verse with not one, but three, actual rhetorical questions.

 

I discovered your latest blithering on this subject at a very opportune time, Bill.  Thanks for the lunch.

 

You might have gained some weight by now Contendah.

Hebrews 6:4-6 could be reduced to it's simplest terms in saying that when

a person is open to the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit and taste the

Heavenly gift of salvation from the word of God through Baptism and that

Baptism can only come but once. Just as Christ could be crucified only

once. Or would you expect the death of Jesus every time you needed to

start over again. No, but it is a wound to Christ over again.

 

The chapter goes on to say there is hope you will persevere and produce

good fruits for a good life or produce thorns and thistles to feed the fire.

 

 

Contendah, my Friend,

 

If you and Vic are happy believing that you DO NOT have eternal life, not a problem for me.  Maybe you do -- and maybe you don't.  That all depends upon whether you have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

For me, personally, I know that when Jesus Christ tells me, "He (Bill Gray, and all believers) who believes HAS ETERNAL LIFE"  (John 6:47).   I believe Him.  Do YOU?

 

If YOU do not believe Jesus Christ -- just who do YOU believe?

 

Joshua 24:15, If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

And, this all comes from my Baptist beliefs, for I am not ashamed to tell folks that I am a Baptist and my theology and my apologetics -- are Baptist.  Where do you get your theology and apologetics?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Romans 1-16 - Mountain

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Crusty, my Friend,

 

How are you set with God?  Do YOU know if you have eternal life in Christ?  Do YOU even believe there is eternal life in Christ?   If so, how does one go about gaining eternal life in Christ?

 

Can YOU answer those questions regarding YOU and Jesus Christ?  If not, then you do have a problem.   But, I have an answer for you.  It is all found in the Bible; trust in His Word -- and you trust in Him.  There is where YOU can find eternal life.  Do you believe that?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

1 - Bible_Open-FAMILY-GROW

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Crusty, my Friend,

 

You say that you and God are good.   Does that mean that YOU are a born-again Christian believer, and that YOU have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? 

 

Do YOU know where you will spend eternity?

 

If you answer in the affirmative to those questions -- then why do you denigrate God's Written Word, the Bible, which was given to guide us toward eternal life in Christ?

 

Do you still believe the Bible is nothing more than paper and ink?  Or, do you believe it is the Word of God?  It cannot be both.  So, to YOU, which is it?

 

If the Bible is only paper and ink -- how did YOU get saved?  Or, are you?

 

Will you answer these questions -- or will you just resort to your cutesy comments and your number game?

 

Crusty, I ask these questions -- not for my sake, for I KNOW that I am secure in Christ -- but, to make you think about what will happen to you after this brief mortal life.   My Friend, compared to eternity -- this life is but a mere blink of the eye.   Shouldn't you be thinking of the big picture?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 John 5-12 - Bible Inspired By God

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Crusty, my Friend,

 

The question was NOT about me, or if I am going to heaven.   Please notice that the question is about YOUR eternal life:

 

You say that you and God are good.   Does that mean that YOU are a born-again Christian believer, and that YOU have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? 

 

Do YOU know where you will spend eternity?

 

If you answer in the affirmative to those questions -- then why do you denigrate God's Written Word, the Bible, which was given to guide us toward eternal life in Christ?

 

Do you still believe the Bible is nothing more than paper and ink?  Or, do you believe it is the Word of God?  It cannot be both.  So, to YOU, which is it?

 

If the Bible is only paper and ink -- how did YOU get saved?  Or, are you?

 

Will you answer these questions -- or will you just resort to your cutesy comments and your number game?

 

Crusty, I ask these questions -- not for my sake, for I KNOW that I am secure in Christ -- but, to make you think about what will happen to you after this brief mortal life.   My Friend, compared to eternity -- this life is but a mere blink of the eye.   Shouldn't you be thinking of the big picture?

 

I imagine that you will continue to avoid answering my questions for one of two reasons:  (1) You have no idea what it means to have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, or (2) you KNOW that you do not have a saving relationship with Him.  So, YOU DANCE!

 

As I said, it is no skin off my nose.  But, I sincerely would love to meet you in heaven one day.  However, that will never happen if you keep denying God and denigrating His Holy Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Believe Now - Or Later-1

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Crusty, my Friend,

 

The question was NOT about me, or if I am going to heaven.   Please notice that the question is about YOUR eternal life:

 

You say that you and God are good.   Does that mean that YOU are a born-again Christian believer, and that YOU have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ? 

 

Do YOU know where you will spend eternity?

 

If you answer in the affirmative to those questions -- then why do you denigrate God's Written Word, the Bible, which was given to guide us toward eternal life in Christ?

 

Do you still believe the Bible is nothing more than paper and ink?  Or, do you believe it is the Word of God?  It cannot be both.  So, to YOU, which is it?

 

If the Bible is only paper and ink -- how did YOU get saved?  Or, are you?

 

Will you answer these questions -- or will you just resort to your cutesy comments and your number game?

 

Crusty, I ask these questions -- not for my sake, for I KNOW that I am secure in Christ -- but, to make you think about what will happen to you after this brief mortal life.   My Friend, compared to eternity -- this life is but a mere blink of the eye.   Shouldn't you be thinking of the big picture?

 

I imagine that you will continue to avoid answering my questions for one of two reasons:  (1) You have no idea what it means to have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, or (2) you KNOW that you do not have a saving relationship with Him.  So, YOU DANCE!

 

As I said, it is no skin off my nose.  But, I sincerely would love to meet you in heaven one day.  However, that will never happen if you keep denying God and denigrating His Holy Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

 ________________

I've answered your questions, Bill.  The only way you will meet me in Heaven is to get your own house in order.   Your imagination is faulty, as always.  You need a reality check, and a thorough psychiatric exam. 

 

Here's your Kleenex.

 

 

bill kleenex

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