it is stated in Genesis that dark matter was present before creation of stuff. it likely had no mass but had a positive charge.

When the Spirit[ whatever is meant by the Spirit of God moved within this dark matter the equilibrium that was present was broken and caused a release of a force bond resulting in
that energy state giving mass to our present dark matter.

It has already been demonstrated in the lab that collisions [see LHC and proton] of certain baryons with mass can decay into all present elementary particles of which
all stuff is composed.

This model solves all problems associated with the big bang theory and certainly negates the need of the ill conceived inflation theory.

Symmetry breaking, horizon, information evaporation, baryon numbers, background radiation, gravity waves to name a few are not a problem since causal contact would be universal during the billions of energy discharges from the dark energy during the Spirit movement.

Importantly the problem of supraluminal speed of particles to communicate between particles moving in opposite directions at a greater than speed of light
strapped onto the cosmic inflation theory necessary for explaining the consistent temperatures in background radiation is gone.

I'm not making this up. It's in the Bible and is based on science.

lookie here OS  cave men posited this. We are the ones that called the darkness of Genesis dark matter. Darkness is a universal term. 

So the absence of light is dark matter?

OS there were no elementary particles as we understand them in the beginning only darkness or dark matter. Light is made of photons. Photons are one of the mass-less elementary particles. The dark matter was in a state of equilibrium. The spirit thing caused energy to be released out of this state of equilibrium. The release was vast and occurred as say in giant sparks we will say for analogy.. The spirit thing gave rise to causal interaction between the photons instantly. Photons are are the communicators necessary for a constant temperature thorough out the universe. Without causal interaction photons moving away from each other never communicate. This keeps the law of speed in tact in does not require supraluminal speeds as required in cosmic inflation. I suspect dark matter is a baryon as a proton whose collisions decayed into the elementary particles that formed galaxies.

I might also add the spirit thing action gave birth to entropy at that time.

Huh?

"I suspect dark matter is a baryon as a proton whose collisions decayed into the elementary particles that formed galaxies."

Protons decayed into what elementary particles?  What elementary particles formed the galaxies? 

Oh wait, I get it.  The baryons as protons (whatever) decayed into elementary particles (these would be quarks: Protons are made of two up quarks and a down quark), which then anti-decayed into protons.  The newly anti-decayed protons then through the electromagnetic force affixed electrons thereby forming hydrogen, which went on to form galactic clouds condensed by gravity, and finally stars.  Right?

"This keeps the law of speed in tact in does not require supraluminal speeds as required in cosmic inflation"

Law of Speed?  Whats that?  It appears here that you see the cosmos inflating through and filling space.  In fact, Cosmic Inflation states that it was and is space itself that is inflating/expanding and everything within space (the universe) is just along for the ride.  The fact that space itself is expanding is why the speed of light (in a vacuum) is an unbreakable constant.

[By Barenaked Ladies]

Our whole universe was in a hot dense state,
Then nearly fourteen billion years ago expansion started. Wait...
The Earth began to cool,
The autotrophs began to drool,
Neanderthals developed tools,
We built a wall (we built the pyramids),
Math, science, history, unraveling the mystery,
That all started with the big bang! (bang!)

"Since the dawn of man" is really not that long,
As every galaxy was formed in less time than it takes to sing this song.
A fraction of a second and the elements were made.
The bipeds stood up straight,
The dinosaurs all met their fate,
They tried to leap but they were late
And they all died (they froze their a****s off)
The oceans and Pangea
See ya wouldn't wanna be ya
Set in motion by the same big bang

It's expanding ever outward but one day
It will cause the stars to go the other way,
Collapsing ever inward, we won't be here, it won't be hurt
Our best and brightest figure that it'll make an even bigger bang!

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
Debating how we're here, they're catching deer (we're catching viruses)
Religion or astronomy (Descartes or Deuteronomy)
It all started with the big bang!

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology
It all started with the big bang!!

I didn't say dark matter was protons i said i suspect it is baryonic. we don't know.

yes collisions produce quarks, gluons, photons, electrons etc.

it all happened instantly producing building blocks of elements for galaxies.

the speed i refer to is the speed of light.

p.s. anything traveling at or near the speed of light has an infinite mass therefore you are not going to accelerate an infinite mass faster than light. thats why. remember E=m? energy =mass

the universe may not be expanding after-all as several theories reveal.

GN  OS I see you have been studying. That's good.

Oh, so you meant to say "I suspect dark matter is a baryon, an example of which is a proton, whose collisions decayed into the elementary particles that formed galaxies."

Okay, lets say dark matter is a baryon, or baryonic.  There are only two baryons that are stable for more than one one-millionth of a second: protons and neutrons.  Free neutrons have a half-life of approximately 10 minutes.  Protons have an estimated half-life of approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. 

So, the neutron and all heavier baryons decay directly to protons or eventually form protons, the proton being the least massive baryon. This implies that the proton has nowhere to go without violating the conservation of baryon number, so if the conservation of baryon number holds exactly, the proton is completely stable against decay. One prediction of grand unification of forces is that the proton would have the possibility of decay, so that possibility is being investigated experimentally.  

As I said before, the cosmos is not speeding through space, it is space that is inflating/expanding dragging along the cosmos with it.  Space can inflate/expand faster than the speed of light (since space itself is the reference for the speed of light) without anything in space traveling at a speed greater than the speed of light relative to space. 

Speed of Universe's Expansion Measured Better Than Ever

The universe just got a new speeding ticket.

The most precise measurement ever made of the speed of the universe's expansion is in, thanks to NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope, and it's a doozy. Space itself is pulling apart at the seams, expanding at a rate of 74.3 plus or minus 2.1 kilometers (46.2 plus or minus 1.3 miles) per second per megaparsec (a megaparsec is roughly 3 million light-years).

http://www.space.com/17884-uni...hubble-constant.html

Sorry to be so long in answering your question but, unlike some, I don't check the forum daily and don't even come around for several days at times. 

To answer your question.    None!    The reason I say none is while many point to the Cosmos and other parts of Creation around us (sorry but I do believe "God Created") and see God's power it keeping it, maintaining it, and originating it I realize that the same Cosmos and existence is seen by others, differently and apart from God.  One person's view is no more valid than another's and it all goes back to faith.  Where you put your faith, who you put your faith in, and what you put your faith in.

In using faith here I'm not limiting that to spiritual connotations but rather saying that most likely none here are original in their thesis regarding how things became as they are and how they got here and are maintained.  We all rely, put our trust, in what someone else has deduced and published or stated.   Put another way I could ask what physical evidence is there that God doesn't exist?  Same answer ... None!

_________

We either believe or don't believe........both comes down to Faith. Before I have to walk that very thin line & live in fear all the time, it sure would be nice to have some proof.

The likelihood of the Genesis language which describes beginning as being that of some sheep-herding clod is inconceivable when one reckons the congruent properties of it and known science of today especially since it was recorded thousands of years prior to the present discipline.

The thing is, Semi, I think this statement, you made, is totally wrong regarding Salvation or someone who chooses to place their faith in God/Christ and accept His sacrifice and shed blood to cover us and our sins and sinfulness. 

What I mean is I don't believe Christians have to live in fear or "walk a thin line, worrying about if the next sin they commit (and they will commit many) will cause God to cancel their contract (so to say) for Salvation.  It's also not about some Spiritual insurance policy called OSAS either because I have come to believe that a person can relinquish their Salvation by choosing to reject and turn away from Christ once they have professed Him I do not believe that a person can lose Salvation because they happen to commit a certain sin.   If that was the case then what sin would that be and wouldn't there be a warning before you got to that point? 

1 Corinthians 6:11 (Amplified Bible) ^{11}  And such some of you were [once]. But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified [pronounced righteous, by trusting] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the [Holy] Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 (Amplified Bible) ^{12}  Everything is permissible (allowable and lawful) for me; but not all things are helpful (good for me to do, expedient and profitable when considered with other things). Everything is lawful for me, but I will not become the slave of anything or be brought under its power.

That is not to say that there is not penalties and repercussions to the Christian who chooses to continue to sin and choose a lifestyle that is contrary to Christ teachings.  There are penalties and punishment but our Salvation is held secure with God, through His Holy Spirit as long as we claim Christ promises and testify.   

Matthew 12:31 (Contemporary English Version)
^{31}  I tell you that any sinful thing you do or say can be forgiven. Even if you speak against the Son of Man, you can be forgiven. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can
never be forgiven, either in this life or in the life to come.

There are many opinions as to what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is but my own opinion is that it is rejection of God's offer for Salvation through the conviction of God's Holy Spirit ,the method by which God enables a person to receive Spiritual enlightenment as to their spiritual needs.  Thus it's rejection of Christ and the Holy Spirit's calling.

Other's feel and believe that it's attributing the work of God (His Holy Spirit) unto Satan.  One thing for sure it is and that's unforgivable and extremely serious.

Hahaha semi,n LOL "walk a thin line"? you would wipe out every mail-box on a rural route the way you wobble.

There are only two choices: A God who always was or a singularity which always was. As Stanley Myron Handleman said, there's no witch who put an evil spell on a prince, it was just an everyday average talking frog.

Doesn't God sound so much more logical when you think about a singularity that had no origins, a big bang (maybe), abiogenesis, millions of species evolving by themselves within a finite space? The average talking frog looks pretty good doesn't it?

(Taken from a forthcoming brief thesis.)

Believing in any God is as logical as believing in leprechauns, or the tooth fairy, or magic. 

Except that a supernatural encounter with God's Holy Spirit is and remains proof and evidence enough, for the Christian/believer, to have confidence not only that God exist but that God is in control and that our salvation is genuine and certain.

It's been this way since God provided His Holy Spirit unto mankind as a ministry, as predicted by Christ Himself, in John and as evidence of our salvation decision. 

John 14:15-17 (New Century Version) ^{15}

  “If you love me, you will obey my commands. ^{16}  I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper to be with you forever— ^{17}  the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he lives with you and he will be in you.

          also

Romans 8:9 (New Living Translation, Second Edition)
^{9}  But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

 

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (Contemporary English Version) ^{10}  God's Spirit has shown you everything. His Spirit finds out everything, even what is deep in the mind of God. ^{11}  You are the only one who knows what is in your own mind, and God's Spirit is the only one who knows what is in God's mind. ^{12}  But God has given us his Spirit. That's why we don't think the same way that the people of this world think. That's also why we can recognize the blessings that God has given us. ^{13}  Every word we speak was taught to us by God's Spirit, not by human wisdom. And this same Spirit helps us teach spiritual things to spiritual people. ^{14}  That's why only someone who has God's Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn't have God's Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish.

There are many scriptures that relate to the Christian God's gift and inner ministry to CONFIRM unto the Christian that their faith is in something genuine, true, and sure.

Furthermore, It is just as understandable that someone who does not know Christ, has not had that intimate encounter with God's Holy Spirit has no proof or evidence to make them think that God is true and exist.   To those who do not know Christ/God they consider those who talk about God's indwelling Holy Spirit to be delusional but yet their judgment is wrong.  It is also understandable that someone would make such dogmatic statements claiming non-existence of God because to even acknowledge the possibility otherwise would be to acknowledge that they potentially are in Spiritual danger and reveals their own error.  

My point is to basically say that I do understand the validity of saying that God doesn't exist because for the persons making that statement they have no conflicting evidence to make any decision otherwise but to extend that statement to encompass all humanity is foolish because that is saying that they know, without doubt, what everyone else is saying is false and fictional or a delusion when in truth they, you, or anyone else has no idea what happens to, or is experienced by another person.  You, they can only make decisions based upon their own experience.  Likewise my testimony is about experiences and knowledge only known and made valid unto myself and I claim that for myself I require no more evidence that God not only exist but that I am certain of my relationship with God, through faith in Christ.  

I can though speak only for myself but know that there are millions of others who claim the same thing.  As for those who claim God doesn't exist, as I stated earlier, I fully understand their position for unto them there is that void and lack of any experience or presence of God's Holy Spirit.  That can change though, immediately, as God's Holy Spirit does convict people of their Spiritual needs and when that happens a person can rationalize it away but they cannot deny that it has happened unto them thus they have to justify it away as being something else.  (I believe) God seeks and reveals Himself to those who honestly seek Him out but only for so long and that there is no guarantee that after mankind rejects God's invitation/Spirit that God will continue to offer that person the ability to find Salvation and forgiveness.

That is my own personal opinion and belief though.

Yet, my friend, you believe in that singularity that you can't tell us where it came from? You believe in that first (only?) abiogenesis that you can't tell us where it came from? No, I can't tell you where God came from, but it would seem you believe in much more than that of which you can't tell us its origins. 

_____

gbrk, I respectfully disagree with everything you said. You've made the statement many times that you will not/do not like to judge others but that is exactly what you have done to me & others that have been in my same boat.

How can you say that people who say God does not exist has not had that intimate encounter with God's Holy Spirit & has no proof or evidence that God is true & does exist? What about those people that have had that intimate encounter with the Holy Spirit? Do you think that person can't reach the decision that it was all a lie?

Why would you call it a dogmatic statement if a person claims the non-existence of God? Christians

insist upon an idea or principle, unproven/unexamined, & sometimes in an imperious or arrogant manner that God does exist. Why is it any worse for someone to say the opposite? You can't prove to me that God does exist. All you have is a story book & you prefer to believe that story is real & true.

Why am I void & lack any experience or presence of God's Holy Spirit if I say that book isn't true? 

It isn't impossible for me or any person that has been there, to suddenly after much soul searching, to not believe anymore.   

I watch & listen to those people like you & shake my head that a grown, mature adult could believe in such & swear it to be the truth. I may wonder why they don't search it out & question that story book but I would never judge you & find you lacking as you have me.

GB, another one religion has driven crazy.

Our forum poster Semi, who calls herself an agnostic at best or an atheist at worst, writes to gb:

Why would you call it a dogmatic statement if a person claims the non-existence of God?

I will take the onus to answer that question for the vocabulary challenged. "Dogmatic" means pertaining to a dogma. According to the dictionary, "dogma" means: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

Ergo, anyone who has a stated belief either in the affirmative or negative of a thesis possesses a dogma and is dogmatic. I'm pretty dogmatic on many things, including the absolute abomination of crepe murder. Unless one is mentally challenged, one is dogmatic on many issues. 

I don't believe I've ever asked you to state your religious belief, Semi, but you seem to announce it quite frequently to all of us whose business it isn't.

I don't think, indeed I know, you won't find that I have ever told anyone he/she/it was going to hell. 

Tell you what your religious belief is? Okay. Here:

An atheist rejects all religious belief & denies the existence of God so I’m not quite to that point. I consider myself an agnostic because they are one that “questions the existence of God/Heaven, etc. in the absence of material proof and in unwillingness to accept supernatural revelation” & that’s kind of where I am.

This came up first on a search; I seem to recall your stating it more than once. The link to the topic the statement came from: https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/topic/agnostic

However, while one may be an agnostic when one first considers the concept of God, if one considers the concept long enough and continues to reject it, then in the eyes of most, he/she is an atheist.

To Semi,  You replied to me "How can you say that people who say God does not exist has not had that intimate encounter with God's Holy Spirit & has no proof or evidence that God is true & does exist? What about those people that have had that intimate encounter with the Holy Spirit? Do you think that person can't reach the decision that it was all a lie?"

How can I make that statement?   I make it simply because if a person actually comes to an intimate, real, personal, meeting of God via God's Holy Spirit I cannot conceive anyone having any doubt afterwards that would alter that person's mind or perspective from that moment on.  I mean no offense, even though I'm sure it will be taken (by some) but if someone states that they have actually had that encounter with God's Holy Spirit and yet can still doubt whether or not God is real and can reach that point where they wonder if it was really God or some other emotional event then they haven't actually had that encounter.   There is no chance of misinterpretation of that experience to assign it to simply some emotional experience.

If it could be doubted or thought to be simply an emotional experience then I submit that is exactly what it was and not an encounter with God.  There is no way to discount or doubt whether or not that Salvation meeting with God's Holy Spirit is real because it's so profound and miraculous.  I'm not trying to judge whether or not you had that actually but just saying I find it humanly difficult to understand if you actually did have that encounter that you could be in a position to doubt whether it was real or not now. 

I can though speak for myself and I can say without any fraction of doubt that God's Holy Spirit brought about a complete and total change of my whole inner being and life and has manifested Himself so many times that there is no room or reason for doubt.  I can only wish that each person could and would have that exact same experience and I believe they can but it's up to them.

________

You should have quoted it all. I said I wasn't positive of the existence/non-existence of Jesus or the truth of the Bible, & I posted that being agnostic is "kind of" where I am. I've made the statement many times that my mind is open to learning & to change if someone can show me proof.

I have never said I believed one way or another beyond a shadow of a doubt. What's wrong with my stating more than once what I do/don't believe? Even when you were here as FirenzeVeritas, you constantly questioned my post about Religion as though I were something dirty & wasn't supposed to mention it more than once. People do that on this forum, they discuss how they believe/don't believe. Many will mention it several times.

Your statement that if one considers the concept of God long enough & continues to reject it, then in the eyes of most, he/she is an atheist is ridiculous! As long as someone is open minded to learning, that is most certainly not true! Be interesting to know how many on this forum would actually agree with you. I may be wrong but I doubt if many would agree with such a ridiculous comment. 

It bothers me none if you post your religious beliefs under every topic. What I addressed was your statement: Ok, if I've told my "religious belief" to everyone, tell me what it is. You must know something I don't. I simply pointed out that you had mentioned your belief/non-belief frequently. 

As for continued agnosticism, what if a woman turns down a marriage proposal with great regularity over a ten year period, but states she's simply "unsure." How many would think she was actually giving the possibility of marriage any real thought?

There's some people you just have to block.

gb,

Good to see you again, my friend.  You said: " I make it simply because if a person actually comes to an intimate, real, personal, meeting of God via God's Holy Spirit I cannot conceive anyone having any doubt afterwards that would alter that person's mind or perspective from that moment on. "

Don't  you think people have intimate encounters with Shiva, Jupiter, Allah,,and Queztlcoatl?  Isn't it more likely that such encounters are a psychological phenomenon?  Don't you think it's more likely that the gods in which those have invested themselves make their imaginary god selves real in the investors' minds?

NSNS

NSNS, glad to see you back!!

You have falsely judged me ( in part ).  While I do believe that once a person accepts Christ as their Savior, by faith, being made aware of their Spiritual needs, their Spiritual eyes opened, so to say, by God's Holy Spirit and accepts that then I do believe their Sins are forgiven them, all their sins.

At that point, of Salvation, I believe (it is my opinion) that Scripture teaches that God's Holy Spirit is given to them (by God) as a gift as a  ministry and help to that individual Christian and as a guarantee of the legitimacy of the Salvation along with other ministries such as teaching/revealing God and the Will of God unto the Christian and guiding the Christian through life.  Continuously convicting the Christian of their being out of God's Will and assisting the Christian to live a Godly life.

The Christian, though, has freedom of choice, free will, and can continue to sin, as all people do, has temptations as all people do.  I do not believe that there is a point of sinning where God yanks a person's salvation away from them.  In other words you miss Church one time too many, you curse one time to many, you get angry one time to many etc, etc, etc.  I do not believe that our sins can rob us of our Salvation and that continuing to sin, for the Christian, puts that Christian at risk for punishment, for losing the fruits of the Spirit,  losing their Spiritual happiness and through grieving the Spirit suppresses and harms our Spiritual relationship even unto early death, killing of the body but salvation of the (inner) spirit.  (1 Corinthians 5:1-5).  The danger with a Christian living a life of Sin, after Salvation, is you are grieving God and God's Holy Spirit and trampling on Christ Shed Blood abusing your gift and Salvation.  Losing the fruits of the Holy Spirit along with jeopardizing your prayer life, potentially meaning your prayers are not answered as well as losing other Spiritual rewards, that the Christian has, can put the Christian in a position where they doubt their faith, where they doubt God and doubt everything because no longer is God's Holy Spirit alive to them and ministering to them as was the case when their Spiritual relationship with God was pure and daily forgiveness and their Christian living was in God's Will and God's Holy Spirit was unimpeded by the Christians unforgiven sins.  When a Christian no longer feels, experiences, God's Holy Spirit as they do when they are living in God's Will then they can reach that position where they could decide God is no longer their God, Christ is no longer their advocate and they think of rejecting Him (I cover this below).

I do not believe that any external force such as that of Satan or demons can remove God's Holy Spirit from the Christian's body, cannot remove God's Guarantee and Seal so I do not believe that Satan, Demons, Demonic powers, or any person can cause a person to lose their Salvation.

I do though believe that a person who has sought God's forgiveness and has accepted Christ CAN later, at some point, renounce that decision, personally REJECT Christ themselves, lose faith in Christ, at some point possibly having put themselves in a position where they no longer realize God's Holy Spirit alive within them and personally make a deliberate decision to openly deny and reject Christ.  At that point I do believe that they have (free will) made the decision to give up their Commitment to Christ and reject Christ.  At that point I do believe they may be in danger of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and in danger of forfeiting their Salvation.  I, later in my Spiritual life, came to that point of belief.

So while I do conform to some OSAS positions that last statement is clearly opposed to the traditional OSAS advocates who usually say once you make that decision then it's irrevocable, even by God.  I've moderated my belief in that area alone.   It does also seem inconsistent (in a way)  to say that our continual, unconfessed, sins can lead us to a position where we can decide to reject God/Christ yet also say that we cannot sin such that we lose our Salvation.  Those are not inconsistent though because it isn't the sins that cause the loss of salvation but rather the sins, continual unconfessed, that cloud, dirty, and ruin (stand in the way of) our Spiritual relation with God, through God's Holy Spirit.  The sins don't rob us of our Salvation but rather rob us of the benefits, fruits of God's Holy Spirit.  It is the individual's personal, knowledgeable, willing decision to reject Christ that puts their salvation in danger/jeopardy (my own opinion).  

So in that way I am NOT your typical OSAS believer.

Great to see you back as well, and welcome back, you have always been respectful and I have missed our dialogs.  I hope your absence was by choice rather than health or other more negative reasons but whatever took you away it's good to know you are doing well and wanting to be back among the group. 

As for your point, and it is a valid and good one, you state:

Don't  you think people have intimate encounters with Shiva, Jupiter, Allah,,and Queztlcoatl?  Isn't it more likely that such encounters are a psychological phenomenon?

I very much do believe people have intimate encounters with each you mention and even have very intense and personal, intimate, relationships with groups like Christian Science or the David Korish's and Jim Jones and the like.  Your points are very valid and are at some point surely on psychological levels.  People seek out God/Christ in the same way, through faith, in faith,

So what is the difference?  What makes Christianity (God, Christ, Holy Spirit) different?  What makes it different is they are not only ALIVE and present but the encounter is not just real but transcends the physical, the emotional, it is an explosion of the very being of the person.  The questions are answered the voids are filled, that thirst/hunger is satisfied permanently.  It isn't just living in and by faith but there is reason for that faith given.  God (by His Holy Spirit) actually comes, dwells, lives, INSIDE of the Christian's body, along with their inner soul/spirit and manifests (makes Himself known) unto the Christian in miraculous ways that are beyond what can be described as just psychological or mental but it totally makes a radical transcending change of the individual (mind/body/soul/spirit) all at once, instantly.  That Holy Spirit, God's Holy Spirit is ALIVE and noticeable (can continuously be perceived) by the individual Christian and continues (as long as the Christian doesn't grieve the Spirit so badly) to have God's Spirit every moment minister unto them Spiritually.    No other religion, person, group does that or has that. 

While I surely understand that you will find that potentially delusional or even boisterous I don't mean it to be rather it's the only way I know to explain it.  I can only testify to it and about it and explain how the Scriptures define and describe it.  It isn't just a relationship based on One-Way faith but it's a living, intimate, two way Spiritual relationship that is at times beyond explanation.  

There are, though, some miserable Christians!  Christians who allow sins to dirty and conflict the relationship with God.  The Christian chooses to indulge in sinful living and in doing so suppresses God's Holy Spirit's benefits and ministry and actually can and does reach a point where their lives is much more miserable than someone who never found Salvation in the first place.

You see NSNS, I do believe that every one has a Spiritual hunger within them at points in their life.  They have questions, Spiritual hunger, to seek or find that which is greater than them or (my opinion mind you, as a  believer) seeking that creator from which they came.  That everyone has that Spiritual thirst.  That thirst and hunger, those questions do lead some to Shiva, Buddah, Allah, Christian Science, Jim Jones types, David Koresh types, etc but none of those fulfill that hunger, that emptiness and none of those comes alive within the bodies/souls of the individuals interacting with them in a two-way intimate living relationship.   That's my opinion, and my take on it my friend.  Take it for what it's worth but that's my expression and belief and best way I can express it.   All be it (and I haven't changed) very long, lengthy, and expanded.  

If you would like to have Scriptures that I reference regarding each point I'll be glad to paste them but to save space and time I didn't.  I will but paste this one which kind of summarizes what I have tried to say about it:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (New Century Version)
^{13}  So it is with you. When you heard the true teaching—the Good News about your salvation—you believed in Christ. And in Christ, God put his special mark of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit that he had promised.

^{14}  That Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive what God promised for his people until God gives full freedom to those who are his—to bring praise to God’s glory.