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Why are so many Churches calling themselves Christian but aren't one Church.

Not only are they no longer one church, from the time the first group left the

Church they've splintered into thousands of different denominations.

When Jesus says

 

"I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must

lead them too, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock,

one shepherd," in John 10: 16.

 

Does that mean one flock, one Holy Apostolic

Church? Or does it mean thousands of different Protestants churches?

No, Jesus said One and he meant only one.

 

John 11: 52  "and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the

dispersed children of God.

 

Since The Father gave Jesus all the power, it is in the power of Jesus to in

return, give the power of his Church to another. And that's what he did in

 

Matthew 16: 17-19 "

17)  Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh

and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.

18)  And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my

church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19)  I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on

earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be

loosed in heaven."

 

Just for starters, this tells us all we need to know for a start. The Bible doesn't

lie for or contradict the word of the Father nor does the Father speak in a

conflicting way concerning Jesus. They are one as they are one with the Church

they created. The Bible in no way teaches anything other than this.

No matter how much a person/s hate the outcome of the plans of God and his

Church, it is what is and will not be changed by man or hell.

 

 

 

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

A sincere question: 

In Matthew 16:17-19, specifically when Jesus says,

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..."

How do we know that Jesus wasn't talking about the ground itself?  Couldn't "The rock" have been the ground Peter and Jesus was standing on at that moment. Jesus could have just as easily said, "You are Peter and through you I will build my church..." or "You are Peter and in you I will build my church..." etc but He doesn't. 

 

Are there other verses in the Bible that shows Jesus referred to Peter as a "Rock" which would make these verses clearly understood that Jesus was saying that Peter would be the church?  I honestly don't know if there are other verses but if there were it would help me to understand these verses better. 

 

 

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church just makes it up as they go:

 

CATALOGUE OF ROME'S UNSCRIPTURAL DOCTRINES
AND DATES OF THEIR INCEPTION

1. Prayers for the dead

300 A.D.

2. Sign of the Cross

310 A.D.

3. Wax votive candles

320 A.D.

4. Veneration of saints and angels

375 A.D.

5. Mary declared "Mother of God"

431 A.D.

6. Priests begin to wear vestments

500 A.D.

7. Worship in Latin

600 A.D.

8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas

610 A.D.

9. Feast days in honour of Mary

650 A.D.

10. Kissing of the Pope's feet

709 A.D.

11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed

750 A.D.

12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea

788 A.D.

13. Holy water

850 A.D.

14. Veneration ofSt. Joseph

890 A.D.

15. Baptism of bells

965 A.D.

16. Canonization of dead saints

995 A.D.

17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent

998 A.D.

18. Rosary beads

1090 A.D.

19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests

1097 A.D.

20. Inquisition of heretics

1184 A.D.

21.Saleof Indulgences

1190 A.D.

22. Transubstantiation of the wafer

1215 A.D.

23. Confession to a priest

1215 A.D.

24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God)

1220 A.D.

25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia

1229 A.D.

26. Red hats for Cardinals

1245 A.D.

27. Feast ofCorpus Christi

1264 A.D.

28. The Miraculous scapular

1287 A.D.

29. Roman church as the only true church

1303 A.D.

30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion

1415 A.D.

31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence

1439 A.D.

32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments

1439 A.D.

33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible

1545 A.D.

34. Justification by works and not faith alone

1545 A.D.

35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding

1560 A.D.

36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary

1854 A.D.

37. Papal infallibility

1870 A.D.

38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void

1908 A.D.

39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God

1931 A.D.

40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary

1950 A.D.

 

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church just makes it up as they go:

 

CATALOGUE OF ROME'S UNSCRIPTURAL DOCTRINES
AND DATES OF THEIR INCEPTION

1. Prayers for the dead

300 A.D.

2. Sign of the Cross

310 A.D.

3. Wax votive candles

320 A.D.

4. Veneration of saints and angels

375 A.D.

5. Mary declared "Mother of God"

431 A.D.

6. Priests begin to wear vestments

500 A.D.

7. Worship in Latin

600 A.D.

8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas

610 A.D.

9. Feast days in honour of Mary

650 A.D.

10. Kissing of the Pope's feet

709 A.D.

11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed

750 A.D.

12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea

788 A.D.

13. Holy water

850 A.D.

14. Veneration ofSt. Joseph

890 A.D.

15. Baptism of bells

965 A.D.

16. Canonization of dead saints

995 A.D.

17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent

998 A.D.

18. Rosary beads

1090 A.D.

19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests

1097 A.D.

20. Inquisition of heretics

1184 A.D.

21.Saleof Indulgences

1190 A.D.

22. Transubstantiation of the wafer

1215 A.D.

23. Confession to a priest

1215 A.D.

24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God)

1220 A.D.

25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia

1229 A.D.

26. Red hats for Cardinals

1245 A.D.

27. Feast ofCorpus Christi

1264 A.D.

28. The Miraculous scapular

1287 A.D.

29. Roman church as the only true church

1303 A.D.

30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion

1415 A.D.

31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence

1439 A.D.

32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments

1439 A.D.

33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible

1545 A.D.

34. Justification by works and not faith alone

1545 A.D.

35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding

1560 A.D.

36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary

1854 A.D.

37. Papal infallibility

1870 A.D.

38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void

1908 A.D.

39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God

1931 A.D.

40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary

1950 A.D.

 

~~~~~~~~~

I have not heard of most of the items listed...wow.  It definitely gives me something to search and read about.  Thank you for sharing this...I just didn't know

Hi Tamela,

You ask Vic, "A sincere question:  In Matthew 16:17-19, specifically when Jesus says, "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..."

How do we know that Jesus wasn't talking about the ground itself?  Couldn't 'The rock' have been the ground Peter and Jesus was standing on at that moment.

Jesus could have just as easily said, 'You are Peter and through you I will build my church...' or 'You are Peter and in you I will build my church...', etc., but He doesn't.

Are there other verses in the Bible that shows Jesus referred to Peter as a 'Rock' which would make these verses clearly understood that Jesus was saying that Peter would be the church?   I honestly don't know if there are other verses but if there were it would help me to understand these verses better."

I have answered these comments and questions from Vic and other Roman Catholic Forum Friends a number of times before.  So, let me offer what David Guzik, senior pastor of Calvary Chapel Santa Barbara, and previously Director of Calvary Chapel College in Germany, has written in his Study Guide For Matthew 16, found at:  http://www.blueletterbible.org...hew&ar=Mat_16_13


1.  John 16:13:   Jesus asks the disciples to tell Him who others say He is.

"When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, 'Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' "

a. "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?  Jesus did not ask this out of insecurity or a lack of full awareness of His identity; nor is He conducting a public opinion poll. Jesus asks this because He wants His disciples to know who He is."

 

2.  John 16:14-16:  A pointed question and a pointed answer.

b. Who do you say that I am? This is the question placed before all who hear of Jesus; and it is we, not He, who are judged by our answer.


i. In fact, we answer this question every day by what we believe and do.  If we really believe Jesus is who He says He is, it will affect the way that we live.

 

c. You are the Christ, the Son of the living God: Peter boldly exclaims the truth about Jesus -- that He is not only the Messiah (the Christ), but that He is also God.


i. The Jews properly thought that to be the Son of the living God, in a unique sense, was to make a claim to deity itself.

 

3. John 16:17-20:  Jesus commends Peter for His bold and correct declaration.

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'  Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ."

a. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven:  Jesus reveals to Peter that he spoke by divine inspiration, even if he didn’t even know it at the time.


i. We too often expect God to speak in strange and unnatural ways.  Here God spoke through Peter so naturally that he didn’t even realize his Father who is in heaven revealed it to him.

 

b. I also say to you that you are Peter: This is not only a recognition of Peter’s more Roman name, it is also a promise of God’s work in Peter.  The name Peter means "Rock."  Though it may be hard to believe, Peter was a rock, and would become a rock, God transforming his naturally extreme character into something solid and reliable.

c. On this rock I will build My church: The words this rock have been the source of much controversy.  It is best to see them as referring to either Jesus Himself (perhaps Jesus gesturing to Himself as He said this), or as referring to Peter’s confession of who Jesus is.


i. Peter, by His own testimony, did not see himself as the rock on which the church was founded.  He says that we are living stones, but Jesus is the cornerstone (1 Peter 2:4-7).

ii. I will build My church: This is a clear claim of ownership.  The church belongs to Jesus.

 

c. And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it:  Jesus also offers a promise - the forces of death and darkness can’t prevail against or conquer the church. This is a precious promise in the heat of battle, assuring us that victory is sure.

 

d. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven:  The idea is not that Peter will admit people to heaven, but that Peter opened the door of the kingdom to both the Jews (Acts 2:38-39) and the Gentiles (Acts 10:34-44).

e. And whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven:  The power for binding and loosing is something that the Jewish rabbis of that day used.  They bound or loosed an individual in the application of a particular point of the law.

Jesus promises that Peter - and the other apostles - would be able to set the boundaries authoritatively for the New Covenant community.  This was the authority given to the apostles and prophets to build a foundation (Ephesians 2:20).

 

In summary, Jesus told Peter that "upon the FAITH displayed by Peter" He, Jesus Christ, would build HIS CHURCH, HIs body of believers worldwide.  And, Jesus promised that neither Satan nor the Gates of Hell could defeat His church. 

 

And, this we know because Jesus defeated Satan when He went to the cross.  On the cross He defeated Satan and death, and with His resurrection He assured that all people will be resurrected to eternal immortal life:  believers to eternal life in the presence of God; non-believers to eternal life void of the presence of God.

And, Jesus told Peter, and the other apostles, that they would be able to set the boundaries of Christian authority with His body of believers.  They did this through the writings we call the Bible, the canonized Written Word of God.  This, in no way, indicated that Peter, or any of the apostles, could give or deny a person eternal salvation.  Only God can do that!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Be Still - Know I Am God - 1

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Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Well start with #1 "Prayers for the dead" 330 ad. Actually the Jews were

doing this before Christ, it's in the OT of the Bible.

___

You are most likely referring not to the Bible, but to the Apocrypha, but you give no citation.  Ante up your source, Invictus.  You don't get a pass by just alleging that something is in the Bible that   supports your doctrine. 39 more to go.

Originally Posted by Tamela:

A sincere question: 

In Matthew 16:17-19, specifically when Jesus says,

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..."

How do we know that Jesus wasn't talking about the ground itself?  Couldn't "The rock" have been the ground Peter and Jesus was standing on at that moment. Jesus could have just as easily said, "You are Peter and through you I will build my church..." or "You are Peter and in you I will build my church..." etc but He doesn't. 

 

You're right, he didn't, there are words for ground, stars, trees and a rock.

Rock -Kipha- Jesus spoke aramaic, The only word for rock is Kipha. Jesus

didn't say Peter was the church, Jesus is the church and he said Peter

was the head of it until the return of Jesus.

 

Are there other verses in the Bible that shows Jesus referred to Peter as a "Rock" which would make these verses clearly understood that Jesus was saying that Peter would be the church?  I honestly don't know if there are other verses but if there were it would help me to understand these verses better. 

 

 

 

I read some very good articles on Praying for the Dead both on Jewish websites and Catholic websites.  I searched the phrase, "Did jews pray for the dead in the OT" which led me to these sites.  So, this is what I've learned...

 

Jews:

They pray the Mourner's Kaddish and is translated below:

Glorified and sanctified be God’s great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

 
The say the prayer makes no mention about death and only praises God and His Will and that the lesson is to place your trust in God.
 
Catholics:
Site the earliest Scriptural reference to prayers for the dead comes in the second book of Maccabees. The books of Maccabees were among the latest written books found in the Old Testament. They recount the struggle of the Jewish people for freedom against the Seleucid Empire, around 100-200 years before the birth of Christ. They are written from an Orthodox Jewish point of view. The second book of Maccabees tells how Judas Maccabee, the Jewish leader, led his troops into battle in 163 B.C. When the battle ended he directed that the bodies of those Jews who had died be buried. As soldiers prepared their slain comrades for burial, they discovered that each was wearing an amulet taken as booty from a pagan Temple. This violated the law of Deuteronomy and so Judas and his soldiers prayed that God would forgive the sin these men had committed (II Maccabees 12:39-45).
 
 
They say this is the first indication in the Bible that prayers offered by the living can help free the dead from any sin.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~
What I see from what I've read is that the Jews offered a 'mourner's prayer' for those who died to praise God and that the Catholics offer prayers for the dead to ask God to forgive them of any sin.
 
For me, there is a difference between what these two groups did/do in the "praying of the dead"...It's not the same act.
 
~~~~~~~~
I still have more reading to do....
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Tamela:

A sincere question: 

In Matthew 16:17-19, specifically when Jesus says,

"You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..."

How do we know that Jesus wasn't talking about the ground itself?  Couldn't "The rock" have been the ground Peter and Jesus was standing on at that moment. Jesus could have just as easily said, "You are Peter and through you I will build my church..." or "You are Peter and in you I will build my church..." etc but He doesn't. 

 

You're right, he didn't, there are words for ground, stars, trees and a rock.

Rock -Kipha- Jesus spoke aramaic, The only word for rock is Kipha. Jesus

didn't say Peter was the church, Jesus is the church and he said Peter

was the head of it until the return of Jesus.

 

Are there other verses in the Bible that shows Jesus referred to Peter as a "Rock" which would make these verses clearly understood that Jesus was saying that Peter would be the church?  I honestly don't know if there are other verses but if there were it would help me to understand these verses better. 

 

 

 

~~~~~~~~

Ok...that helps me understand a little better.  You're right, Jesus didn't say Peter was the church.

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

.

Well start with #1 "Prayers for the dead" 330 ad. Actually the Jews were

doing this before Christ, it's in the OT of the Bible.

___

You are most likely referring not to the Bible, but to the Apocrypha, but you give no citation.  Ante up your source, Invictus.  You don't get a pass by just alleging that something is in the Bible that   supports your doctrine. 39 more to go.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And you don't get a pass anyway with this bogus heretic list from one of

your hate groups. All these sites made in one of the hate houses.

 

My Bible with the Old Testament is the same today as when it was put

together in the year 367. It was closed by the Holy Spirit and complete

to this day, both OT and NT. Your bible is a desecration of the work of

God by some guy attempting to hide the writtem word of God by removing

it from your bible. And then he attempted to change the wording of your

bible which is a sin no one should want.

 

My Bible is the result of the apostles and earliest church doctors compiling

the very Bible I see today. You heretics do whatever you want with your

book to fit your many different types of religions you have developed over

the last 400 years since the start up of the faux religion you call christian.

Don't tell me your lies about a so called bible that isn't valid in the first place. 


 

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