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You’ve Never Heard Of

 

After Constantine the Great, there were emperors who were heretics and emperors who adhered to Christian orthodoxy.

 

Then there was Julian the Apostate.

 

From the time of Constantine to the French Revolution, he is the only Christian monarch ever to openly reject the faith, according to Catholic historian Warren Carroll. For reasons both personal and intellectual, Julian launched the last great attempt to revive ancient Roman paganism.

 

Animal sacrifices resumed in the reopened pagan temples while the Church was stripped of the imperial funds and lands that had been granted under past emperors.

 

Julian so despised the Christian faith that he even attempted to reverse his baptism by bathing in a bull’s blood. One ecclesiastical historian describes him as a man “who had made his soul a home of destroying demons.”

 

For Julian, persecution, oppression, and financial extortion of Christians weren’t enough. In the second year of his reign, in 362, he conceived an extraordinary plan to undermine the credibility of Jesus Christ by annulling one of his prophecies. In Matthew 24, while the disciples were pointing out the temple buildings, Christ told them, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.”

 

As students of history will remember, this was fulfilled with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, during the First Jewish-Roman War.

 

For Julian, the solution was simple: all he had to do was rebuild the temple.

 

A special imperial official was appointed to oversee the task. And Julian was able to take advantage of the pious enthusiasm of Jews from across the empire, some of whom contributed money to the effort, others volunteering as laborers, according to accounts from early Church writers.

 

Special tools of silver were forged for the occasion. Ground was broken. The small army of workers poured right into the work, toiling right up until nightfall.

 

Signs of trouble immediately appeared: after the first day, the workers awoke to find the soil they had removed had shifted back into place. Undaunted, they resumed work when “of a sudden a violent gale blew, and storms, tempests and whirlwinds scattered everything far and wide,” according to the account of the ecclesiastical historian Theodoret.

 

Then calamity struck: an earthquake rocked the site, followed by fireballs that burst out of the unfinished foundations for the temple, burning some men, and sending the rest in flight. Some rushed into the church that had been built by Constantine’s mother, St. Helena, only to have its doors shut in front of them by “an unseen and invisible power,” according to one account.

 

Some accounts of the disaster read like a retelling of the plagues visited upon Egypt: the fountains by the old temple stopped working, a famine broke out, and two imperial officials who had desecrated some sacred vessels met with grisly deaths. One was eaten alive with worms. The other “burst asunder in the midst.”

 

All this culminated with the appearance of the cross—either in the sky or sprinkled like stars on the garments of the workers, according to early Church accounts.

Needless to say, the temple was never rebuilt. This much is certain.

 

But how credible are the accounts of the miraculous events that halted the construction? The above synopsis is taken from five Church writers, all of whom lived during the events they described or immediately afterwards when eyewitness testimony would still have been available.

 

Though they vary in some details, all five agree on three essentials of the narrative—the earthquake, the fire from somewhere below the temple, and some miraculous appearance of a cross symbol.

 

Three are ecclesiastical historians—Theodoret, Sozomen, and Socrates Scholasticus. Maybe you haven’t heard of those historians and aren’t too inclined to trust them, but how about saints like John Chrysostom and Gregory of ****anzus, who also wrote about the foiled rebuilding of the temple? (Read their accounts here and here.)

 

All five writers present the calamitous rebuilding as historical fact. Some go at length to demonstrate that they personally have done their due diligence in assessing the veracity of the story. Gregory of ****anzus notes that there might be some factual disparities in accounts, but he then adds: “But what all people nowadays report and believe is that when they were forcing their way and struggling about the entrance a flame issued forth from the sacred place and stopped them.”

 

Likewise, Sozomen writes the following regarding the fire: “This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful.” Such are not the words one would expect from writers who are embellishers of pious legends.

 

What makes the story so compelling is that it is also reported in a matter-of-fact fashion by the Roman pagan historian Ammianus Marcellinus, who confirms the core narrative about a strange fire breaking out in his work, Res Gestae (“things done&rdquo:

 

[T]errifying balls of flame kept bursting forth near the foundations of the temple, and made the place inaccessible to the workmen, some of whom were burned to death; and since in this way the element persistently repelled them, the enterprise halted.

 

Marcellinus, of course, does not call this a miracle, and the significance of the event in the history of Judaism and Christianity seems lost on him. But his account—presented without any qualification about the credibility of the story—stands as an extraordinary corroboration of the five accounts by Christian authors.

And yet, the event doesn’t seem to have gotten much attention from contemporary historians, who don’t seem to share Marcellinus’ commitment to even-handed reporting. As Warren Carroll has written in The Building of Christendom,

 

It is one of the most remarkable events in Christian history, for which no natural explanation is possible, and which all too many historians have seen fit to ignore despite the high repute of Ammianus Marcellinus as a historian, the confirming of his account by many Christians historians, and his obvious lack of bias and the lack of time before he wrote which would have been required for an unhistorical legend about the event to have developed.

 

As Christians we believe miracles still happen in the here and now. But usually, what’s involved is some sort of personal healing of someone with an ailment or injury—those, at least, seem to be the most common sort of miracle used nowadays as a criterion for canonizing saints.

 

However, public miracles that leave lots of eyewitnesses and involve some sort of dramatic occurrence seems like a thing of the Old Testament past—the parting of the Red Sea, the tumbling walls of Jericho, the fire and brimstone that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind.

 

The foiled rebuilding of the temple under Emperor Julian the Apostate stands as an extraordinary witness to God’s enduring intervention in the created order.

 

Read more

 

http://catholicexchange.com/gr...le-youve-never-heard

 

 

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Vic, my Friend,

 

You spent ALL that effort copy/pasting some Vatican writers ramblings -- and still gave the wrong answer.

 

The Greatest Miracle Of All Times?

 

When Jesus Christ lay aside His divine nature and became God Incarnate, God/Man, to make salvation and eternal life available to you and to me.  What miracle can be greater than that -- unless, of course, you are trying to spin a "the Roman Catholic church did it" spider web.

 

Praise God for the miracle of the Lamb of God who died for me and for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Lamb3a-TEXT

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

 

You spent ALL that effort copy/pasting some Vatican writers ramblings -- and still gave the wrong answer.

 

The Greatest Miracle Of All Times?

 

When Jesus Christ lay aside His divine nature and became God Incarnate, God/Man, to make salvation and eternal life available to you and to me.  What miracle can be greater than that -- unless, of course, you are trying to spin a "the Roman Catholic church did it" spider web.

 

Praise God for the miracle of the Lamb of God who died for me and for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

____

Although it would not be anywhere nearly as miraculous as the events you and Invictus describe, there is one modern miracle that I have for about 6 weeks hoped for  in vain for, namely for you, Bill Gray, to summon up the integrity to reply with substance to my oft-repeated challenge to your Cafeteria Calvinist OSAS beliefs.  You KNOW which posts I am referring to, Bill.  Now perform a little miracle of your own and

defend your position.  Either do that or wave the white flag and publicly acknowledge that you can not muster a credible defense. 

Will the efforts of those Zionists and "Christian Zionists" who look hopefully to the actual rebuilding of the temple meet a similar fate should they ever initiate such a venture? Here is one interesting take on the subject:

  

<<<<The religious Jewish religion was a temporary dispensation, intended by its divine author, God himself, to prefigure one more complete and perfect, and prepare men to embrace it. It not only essentially required bloody sacrifices (known as the korbanot), but enjoined a fixed and certain place for them to be performed in; this was the temple at Jerusalem. Hence the final destruction of this temple was the abolition of the sacrifices, which annihilated the whole system of this religious institution.  Jesus Himself made the perfect sacrifice for us when He died on that cross atop Calvary.  Any attempts by the Jews to sacrifice animals again in the Temple can be and was seen by God as a mockery of the Messiah's death.  God would not allow this in 363 A.D., and He won't allow it now.

For the last 1900 years, Jews have prayed that God would allow for the rebuilding of the Temple. This prayer is a formal part of the thrice daily Jewish prayer services.

A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would be presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. And these people are right! Conservative Judaism has modified the prayers; their prayer books call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of animal sacrifices. Most of the passages relating to sacrifices are replaced with the Talmudic teaching  that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin.[Talmudic tampering with the Old Testament]

 >>>>

http://www.bibleprobe.com/rebuildingthetemple.htm

Last edited by Contendah
quote:   Originally Posted by Contendah:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

 

You spent ALL that effort copy/pasting some Vatican writers ramblings -- and still gave the wrong answer.

 

The Greatest Miracle Of All Times?

 

When Jesus Christ lay aside His divine nature and became God Incarnate, God/Man, to make salvation and eternal life available to you and to me.  What miracle can be greater than that -- unless, of course, you are trying to spin a "the Roman Catholic church did it" spider web.

 

Praise God for the miracle of the Lamb of God who died for me and for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,  Bill

Although it would not be anywhere nearly as miraculous as the events you and Invictus describe, there is one modern miracle that I have for about 6 weeks hoped for  in vain for, namely for you, Bill Gray, to summon up the integrity to reply with substance to my oft-repeated challenge to your Cafeteria Calvinist OSAS beliefs.  You KNOW which posts I am referring to, Bill.  Now perform a little miracle of your own and defend your position.  Either do that or wave the white flag and publicly acknowledge that you can not muster a credible defense.  

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I will make a sincere deal with you.   If you will tell us what church (type, not specific location) you attend and what it teaches -- you have my promise that I will respond to your OSAS question.

 

Now, are you man enough to stand at the bar and be honest?

 

If so, then when I have read your post giving us that info -- you WILL see my OSAS Challenge post.

 

Can you handle this -- or will you weasel, dance, squirm away -- trying to lead folks down another dark road in your effort to hide your supposed church?

 

The ball is in your court.  Game on?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Friends_Donkey_Bear_TALK

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic,

 

You spent ALL that effort copy/pasting some Vatican writers ramblings -- and still gave the wrong answer.

 The Greatest Miracle Of All Times?

 When Jesus Christ lay aside His divine nature and became God Incarnate, God/Man, to make salvation and eternal life available to you and to me.  What miracle can be greater than that -- unless, of course, you are trying to spin a "the Roman Catholic church did it" spider web.

 Praise God for the miracle of the Lamb of God who died for me and for you.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's what happened billiee, you were given a part of history you would

never have otherwise known about if not for the documentation of various

reporters of the time which the Vatican also picked up on along with many

others that witnessed it.

 

What you refer to above as a miracle concerning Jesus, wasn't a miracle

at all. No more a miracle than a guy with a hammer that built a bird house.

What lies within the common power of the human person isn't to be

considered supernatural. Jesus isn't human. He's God that has the power

to assume human flesh, which is no more beyond his natural capabilities

than making wine out of water. For you to do, it would be a miracle.

 

For you to tell the truth or answer a few questions,,,yep, a miracle.....

 

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by Contendah:
quote:   Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Vic, my Friend,

 

You spent ALL that effort copy/pasting some Vatican writers ramblings -- and still gave the wrong answer.

 

The Greatest Miracle Of All Times?

 

When Jesus Christ lay aside His divine nature and became God Incarnate, God/Man, to make salvation and eternal life available to you and to me.  What miracle can be greater than that -- unless, of course, you are trying to spin a "the Roman Catholic church did it" spider web.

 

Praise God for the miracle of the Lamb of God who died for me and for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,  Bill

Although it would not be anywhere nearly as miraculous as the events you and Invictus describe, there is one modern miracle that I have for about 6 weeks hoped for  in vain for, namely for you, Bill Gray, to summon up the integrity to reply with substance to my oft-repeated challenge to your Cafeteria Calvinist OSAS beliefs.  You KNOW which posts I am referring to, Bill.  Now perform a little miracle of your own and defend your position.  Either do that or wave the white flag and publicly acknowledge that you can not muster a credible defense.  

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I will make a sincere deal with you.   If you will tell us what church (type, not specific location) you attend and what it teaches -- you have my promise that I will respond to your OSAS question.

 

Now, are you man enough to stand at the bar and be honest?

 

If so, then when I have read your post giving us that info -- you WILL see my OSAS Challenge post.

 

Can you handle this -- or will you weasel, dance, squirm away -- trying to lead folks down another dark road in your effort to hide your supposed church?

 

The ball is in your court.  Game on?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

___

It is YOU, Bill, who are the squirming weasel, and your silly-ass little extortion ploy is just the latest attempt in your desperate struggle to avoid addressing the truly substantive challenge I posed to your OSAS beliefs. If you truly believe that perseverance doctrine, you should be able to defend it without making your defense contingent on anything else I might post.  Your continued failure to respond is indicative of your inability to give the kind of answer Christians are instructed to give. 

 

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:  and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you , with meekness and fear." (I Peter 3:15)

 

Originally Posted by jtdavis:

Best, in your lifetime, have you ever done a honest, hard days work?

============

I've worked ever since I can remember jt, and for money since I was 13. Worked days, worked nights, gone to school while I worked, had two jobs at once, helped my mother, and did it all without a union. So don't try that crap with me. YOU wouldn't have done it.

Best, in your lifetime, have you ever done a honest, hard days work?

============

I've worked ever since I can remember jt, and for money since I was 13. Worked days, worked nights, gone to school while I worked, had two jobs at once, helped my mother, and did it all without a union. So don't try that crap with me. YOU wouldn't have done it.

 

If that's so, I salute you

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by jtdavis:

I thought the greatest miracle was seeing all the people come back to life at quiting time.

===============

That's just union members. Everyone else has been working all day.

--------

I'm a union member and I flat-ass unconditionally dare you to come and sit in my seat for a day.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

This little quip didn't bother anyone:

 

I thought the greatest miracle was seeing all the people come back to life at quiting time.

 

But this quip did:

 

That's just union members. Everyone else has been working all day.

____

 

Perhaps it bothered people who abhor cheap-shot, across-the-board condemnation of others based on a biased characterization of their worth as workers.

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

This little quip didn't bother anyone:

 

I thought the greatest miracle was seeing all the people come back to life at quiting time.

 

But this quip did:

 

That's just union members. Everyone else has been working all day.

____

 

Perhaps it bothered people who abhor cheap-shot, across-the-board condemnation of others based on a biased characterization of their worth as workers.

---------------------

Which statement was the cheap shot? See the problem there? One or both?  Or is this more of your 'do as I say not as I do' crap, just like the photo shopped pictures? More of the lefty hypocrisy of 'we can say it but you can't'?

Last edited by Bestworking
Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

This little quip didn't bother anyone:

 

I thought the greatest miracle was seeing all the people come back to life at quiting time.

 

But this quip did:

 

That's just union members. Everyone else has been working all day.

____

 

Perhaps it bothered people who abhor cheap-shot, across-the-board condemnation of others based on a biased characterization of their worth as workers.

---------------------

Which statement was the cheap shot? See the problem there? One or both?  Or is this more of your 'do as I say not as I do' crap, just like the photo shopped pictures? More of the lefty hypocrisy of 'we can say it but you can't'?

____

All of the junk you posted that was critical of union members across the board was cheap shot stuff.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

All of the junk you posted that was critical of union members across the board was cheap shot stuff.

 

ALL of the junk? ALL? LOL! But what he posted about workers wasn't junk or a cheap shot? You don't even bother to hide your hypocrisy anymore. You have officially become as bad, or worse, than bill gray.

____

ALL  he (Road Puppy) posted consisted solely of this:  "I'm a union member and I flat-ass unconditionally dare you to come and sit in my seat for a day."

 

Hardly a cheap shot; more like a challenge--which YOU, of course, would not accept. 

 

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