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Hi to my Forum Friends,

It seems that the old "if you can't answer it; spin it or twist it" atheistic rhetoric machine is alive and well. Now we have a Deep Fish Crow trying to spin us.

Fish tells Monet, "What if YOU are wrong, Monet? There are and have been thousands upon thousands of religions and cults. Each worships different gods in different ways. The chances that your particular god is the wrong god could be great."

Monet responds, "They only thing I know is...Jesus was the only one of those "gods" to love me enough to die for me...He rose 3 day later and is at the right hand of God at this very moment interceding for me. The others are still in their tombs. If I am wrong it won't be any big deal...but if You are wrong...Yikes!!! Eternity is a long time."

And, then, when Monet shares about Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16), Crow chimes in with, "So, you're saying the same Jesus who came and died for you, whose main message was love, forgiveness, and compassion, would cause you to suffer simply to test you?"

Do you see how the atheist "spin machine" works? Twist everything the Christians say and try to keep everyone off balance; make them lose their focus on Christ -- then feed them manure. Sorry, boys -- you are just spreading atheist manure.

First, let me just make a minor adjustment to Monet's comment: Jesus loves you; but He is not one of those "gods" -- He is the only God. By saying it the other way, you are, in a sense, compromising your faith by trying to make your words fit what the atheist have told you -- so that you can refute him. Jesus is God -- period. Monet, what you have said is very true; and I can see from your response that you are a true believer. I am only saying to you, and to the rest of us -- do not fall into the atheist's "spin" trap by trying to use their terminology and their wording -- to disprove their mistaken beliefs. Stick with the words God has given us in our User's Manual, the Bible -- and you can't go wrong. Jesus is God, the only God -- period.

Fish, you say, "There are and have been thousands upon thousands of religions and cults."

That is true; but, there has only been one God. Yes, you can find thousands of religions and cults; hey, in Buddhism alone you can find thousands of gods -- one for any problem or lifestyle you want blessed or cursed.

But, only God gave us the Bible; only the Bible teaches a personal relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. Only the Bible offers a pathway of salvation which allows man to have atonement for his sin nature. Only the Bible gives us prophecy; only the Bible gives us 1817 fulfilled prophecies -- with zero failures.

Yes, there are religions which will give you books which teach about their traditions; there are religions which will give you man-made traditions and rituals. But, there is only one Bible. True, there are many translations -- but, still only one Bible. And it is the only book in which man can find salvation through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ.

The multitude of religions will give you wooden or metal gods to worship. Have you ever tried talking with a tree; how about a metal post or statue? Could it answer you? No? Why not? Because it was just a piece of wood or metal; if it fell over, it could not even pick itself up. You would have to pick it up and sit it back on your man-made altar. And, yet, many folks will put their eternal soul in the hands of this piece of wood or metal. That is religion. Christians do not have a religion; we have a relationship with a very personal God, Jesus Christ.

So, my atheist Friends, you just keep on worshipping your wood, stone, metal, or intellectual gods -- and see if, on the day when you stand before the Great White Throne talking with Jesus about your life on earth and why you rejected Him -- see if they can help you.

And, Crow asks, "So, you're saying the same Jesus who came and died for you, whose main message was love, forgiveness, and compassion, would cause you to suffer simply to test you?"

Crow, if you better understood the story Jesus is telling us in Luke 16, you would know that this is not a test -- not at all. You and I know, and Jesus knows, that there will always be the poor and poverty stricken people in the world (Deuteronomy 15:11, Mark 14:7). That is just the way of a fallen world; it has been since Adam fell from grace through disobedience. Many are poor materially; others are poor through their humility. The beggar in this story was humble and poor; but very obviously a man who loved God, for when he died he was taken into Abraham's Bosom to await the day he would join Jesus Christ in heaven.

The rich man, on the other hand, was a worldly, materialistic man -- maybe an atheist, maybe an agnostic, maybe just a man who was so wrapped up in worshipping himself -- that he had no time for God.

Abraham's response to the rich man, who asked that Abraham send someone to warn his brothers who still lived in their materialistic world -- is the same response God would give to atheists and other non-believers today, "If you will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, i.e., prophecy -- neither will you listen when told that Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the dead to offer you salvation." Of course, this is my paraphrase of Abraham's statement in Luke 16:31 -- but, worth your consideration if you are now an atheist or a non-believer.

No, Crow, God does not test us; but, He does allow us to go through testing, just as He did with Job, that we might grow stronger. How is steel made? The factories take the much weaker metal, iron, and submit it to extreme heat and pressure -- and, in this process, it becomes strong steel.

In Romans 5:1-2, we are told that we have attained our great hope through Jesus Christ, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."

And, then, in Romans 5:3-5, we are told how God makes us strong enough to weather all the adversity, persecution, and attacks brought upon us for being Christians, "And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

He puts the steel into our faith!

Then, God tells us why this is so: "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

Testing? No. Love and spiritual strength building? Yes.

Regardless of what the world will tell you; there is no way to salvation except through Him, Jesus Christ: the Way, the Truth, the Life (John 14:6) -- and all religions; whether they be the intellectual religion of atheism, the pantheistic religion of believing that God is in everything and everything is divine -- or any of the many other world religions -- will lead a person only to being eternally lost. The only path to eternal life with God is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

My Friends, especially my atheist Friends, please take this Scripture passage to heart -- for it is your ticket to eternal life.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Bill, spin, propaganda, distortion, manipulation, etc., have no allegiance.

You should, or you might if you haven't already, stop by the "Healing" thread and take a good look at Todd Bentley or god.tv.

Regards, miamizsun
Hi Miami,

Gee, I am sorry I left you out of the list above. Keep working and I am sure you will catch up with Deep Fish Crow.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Don't you have to hate gays, vote Republican and believe that George W. "Cokey" Bush is a personal agent of God, and then be ritually nearly drowned to qualify for Billvation?
I think that not understanding the historic meaning of "secular" and "lay" may be part of Billvation as well.
Lots of Bible verses often taken out of context and very selectively used proves Billvation.
Fear of imaginary witches, goblins, and a Persian demon, a talking snake, and a six thousand year old earth where the eating of a piece of fruit made the rules of radioactive slow down to a crawl in comparison to the former Golden Age (pre-snake) evidently helps, as well. I don't think eating a cookie is de rigeur.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Bill, spin, propaganda, distortion, manipulation, etc., have no allegiance.

You should, or you might if you haven't already, stop by the "Healing" thread and take a good look at Todd Bentley or god.tv.

Regards, miamizsun
Hi Miami,

Gee, I am sorry I left you out of the list above. Keep working and I am sure you will catch up with Deep Fish Crow.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, no need to apologize, I'm sure I'm on enough lists already. But you could throw me an honorable mention from time to time. ;^)

Regards, Miamizsun
Bill, forgive these "spinmeisters" They learned from the best. Satan attempted to spin the scriptures to Jesus when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Apparently that has been a favorite tactic of the evil one for over 2,000 years. I guess they believe if they continue telling the same lies over and over again, someone will believe them. Well I don't. I do however wish Neal could come up with something at least plausible if not original.
quote:
Originally posted by Smooth operator:
Bill, forgive these "spinmeisters" They learned from the best. Satan attempted to spin the scriptures to Jesus when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Apparently that has been a favorite tactic of the evil one for over 2,000 years. I guess they believe if they continue telling the same lies over and over again, someone will believe them. Well I don't. I do however wish Neal could come up with something at least plausible if not original.



Naw Smooth,

Being Darwinist I would say it is the genetic predisposition to hostility in a constant battle with learned behavior that causes their growling.
man i miss Haskel Sparks! his sermons only took sixty seconds from my life. it took 5 min. and two readings just to follow Mr. Bill. Confused

No, Crow, God does not test us; but, He does allow us to go through testing

the only way to focus your mind, is to mind your focus? what? not test, allow to be tested?

will there be a test or not on this? Big Grin
Of course it is not very "plausible" as the rantings of the crazed right wing Uber-Protestants rarely are. Not very plausible, not very sublime and a comic book version of Christianity is not a very edification-worthy stand to take.
Uber-Fundies here have espoused belief in G.W. "Cokey" Bush as an agent of God, now Mr. John "Grampy" McCain as his replacement, argued for the existence of witches and demons that act as personal gadflies towards the righteous and that the earth is only a tad bit older than the Great Pyramid at Giza. They have additionally posted links to websites that claim that the temptation and sin of Adam and Eve caused a perfect herbivore world to not merely cease, but radioactive decay to slow down as a result of sin in the world.
It would be humorous were they not sincere in their spoonfed madness, and as a class often prone to acts of violence against anyone who they don't like.

They so crazy!

Neal M. Hughes, BA, MA, MLIS, blah blah blah, PAOSTTF (Personal agent of Satan to the Fundamentalists), Democrat, Episcopalian, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by miamizsun:
Bill, spin, propaganda, distortion, manipulation, etc., have no allegiance.

You should, or you might if you haven't already, stop by the "Healing" thread and take a good look at Todd Bentley or god.tv.

Regards, miamizsun
Hi Miami,

Gee, I am sorry I left you out of the list above. Keep working and I am sure you will catch up with Deep Fish Crow.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, no need to apologize, I'm sure I'm on enough lists already. But you could throw me an honorable mention from time to time. ;^)

Regards, Miamizsun
Hi Miami,

I respect you for this response. It showed a good degree of maturity. Now if you could teach this to those on that list; we would have a more civil Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
rramlimnn
Everybody Knows My Name
Picture of rramlimnn

Posted 01 August 2008 07:28 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Smooth operator:
Bill, forgive these "spinmeisters" They learned from the best. Satan attempted to spin the scriptures to Jesus when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. Apparently that has been a favorite tactic of the evil one for over 2,000 years. I guess they believe if they continue telling the same lies over and over again, someone will believe them. Well I don't. I do however wish Neal could come up with something at least plausible if not original.



Naw Smooth,

Being Darwinist I would say it is the genetic predisposition to hostility in a constant battle with learned behavior that causes their growling.


rramlimnn

Posts: 666 | Registered: 04 November 2007


Holy Cow, look at the post number on rramlimnn's post!!! LMAO!!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Neal Hughes: Of course it is not very "plausible" as the rantings of the crazed right wing Uber-Protestants rarely are. Not very plausible, not very sublime and a comic book version of Christianity is not a very edification-worthy stand to take. Uber-Fundies here have espoused belief in G.W. "Cokey" Bush as an agent of God, now Mr. John "Grampy" McCain as his replacement, argued for the existence of witches and demons that act as personal gadflies towards the righteous and that the earth is only a tad bit older than the Great Pyramid at Giza. They have additionally posted links to websites that claim that the temptation and sin of Adam and Eve caused a perfect herbivore world to not merely cease, but radioactive decay to slow down as a result of sin in the world. It would be humorous were they not sincere in their spoonfed madness, and as a class often prone to acts of violence against anyone who they don't like.

They so crazy!

Neal M. Hughes, BA, MA, MLIS, blah blah blah, PAOSTTF (Personal agent of Satan to the Fundamentalists), Democrat, Episcopalian, etc.
Hi Neal,

Thank you. We have all heard the old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words." Well, my Friend, your last post did more to show people the inane, shallow character of atheistic rhetoric than any ten messages I could write. Thank you for being so helpful.

We all know that when an atheist, even one claiming membership in a major denomination, has no rational response -- the "spin machine" mentality takes over and manure is spread. One suggestion; you might want to add one more set of letters after your name: MS

No, not Master of Science -- Manure Spreader.

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by hoss gal: the great white throne, mr. bill?

that is rather funny!

poor monet. and you thought you had it right... i always think you can never sound more condescending than the last time but you always surprise me, mr. bill.
Hi Hoss,

Yep, the Great White Throne Judgment. You can read all about it in Revelation 20:11-15 and prepare to face Jesus Christ there one day -- or you can drop your cutesy atheist mask, get into the Bible like your soul depends upon it (which it does), and, if you will get serious -- you might be able to join us at the Bema Seat Judgment for believers -- and avoid the Great White Throne Judgment for those who are eternally lost.

But, of course, that is up to you. You can continue to wiggle and giggle with Deep Fish -- or you can have a walk with Jesus Christ. The choice is your, and yours alone. But, the outcome is eternal. Think about it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I love people who can dish it out in excess exceeding all bounds of taste and decorum, yet can't recognize humor when it hits them with a skillet.

I actually don't care what you teach, believe, write, pray or don't do. It is the secular United States of America, founded by Enlightenment-inspired True Whigs and not ordained by God, Siddhartha or any other deity or demidivine being to my knowledge.

This is called a "dose of your own medicine." You condemn people to hell without knowing one iota about them, are quite reactionary and vocal in quite obscure and minority views regarding politics and matters metaphysical and say your opinion is truth.

Unlike the Fundamentalist, I claim to have no answers for you regarding the foundation of the earth and life therein; about the mechanics for a proposed end of the earth; or even on why you should or should not to achieve salvation by my means or that of another.

I am tired of you denigrating people and posting the same old stuff over and over without an original thought coming out of your head. If you don't relish ridicule, then perhaps you should stop posting ridiculous things over and over and over again.

It isn't even any fun to mock your oddness anylonger, as you are a three trick pony: Obama bad, gays agents of Satan, and Bema Seat and Great White Throne Judgment along with the other tribulating and rapturing.

We get it. You are a fundamentalist. Great. Whootie Doo! I, along with the majority of people in this nation, am not.

My posting long tirades to you and your followers is a taste of how it feels to the orthodox Christian to be berated with your interpretation of matters personal over and over again.

By, the way, I found "Billvation" to be rather witty, myself. Did it tick you off? It was supposed to, to let you know how people feel when you mock their church or lack of belief and call you a sinner and cursed to an eternal flame unless you do it a certain way.
Jesus didn't hide in a church and tell everyone who was going to Hell and who wasn't. Jesus went in to the homes of sinners, ate with them, spoke with them, and did something that Bill and the Pharisees of the time does not.

He showed an honest and genuine love and concern for them. Simple as that. That's what the gospels truly are. It's not a formula on how to get into Heaven. The Gospels are God's way of telling us how much He loves us.

When folks like Bill try to make it look like atheists are the enemy and Christians have to defeat them, that's the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Christians don't say they are defeated, they say they are saved. How do you expect someone to find that personal experience of Christ when you try so hard to separate them from Christ with this stupid thread? Crap like this doesn't tell anyone that Jesus loves them, it tells them that you are against them.

As Christians, we're supposed to spread the Gospel. That doesn't mean convert the heathens (defeat the enemy). It means that are to tell the world about Jesus' gift. To accept that gift or not is not up to us, it's up to the individual. It's our responsibility to help those who have accepted it, but not reject those who have not.

That's why I say to anyone on these forums. I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, atheist, Christian, hell even Muslim. If you're in Nashville, I'll buy you a beer and no religion or politics discussion. The only rule is no Bud Lite, it's a sin to drink what the Brits call "pisswater".
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Jesus didn't hide in a church and tell everyone who was going to Hell and who wasn't. Jesus went in to the homes of sinners, ate with them, spoke with them, and did something that Bill and the Pharisees of the time does not.

He showed an honest and genuine love and concern for them. Simple as that. That's what the gospels truly are. It's not a formula on how to get into Heaven. The Gospels are God's way of telling us how much He loves us.

When folks like Bill try to make it look like atheists are the enemy and Christians have to defeat them, that's the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Christians don't say they are defeated, they say they are saved. How do you expect someone to find that personal experience of Christ when you try so hard to separate them from Christ with this stupid thread? Crap like this doesn't tell anyone that Jesus loves them, it tells them that you are against them.

As Christians, we're supposed to spread the Gospel. That doesn't mean convert the heathens (defeat the enemy). It means that are to tell the world about Jesus' gift. To accept that gift or not is not up to us, it's up to the individual. It's our responsibility to help those who have accepted it, but not reject those who have not.

That's why I say to anyone on these forums. I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, atheist, Christian, hell even Muslim. If you're in Nashville, I'll buy you a beer and no religion or politics discussion. The only rule is no Bud Lite, it's a sin to drink what the Brits call "pisswater".
You touched on something ive been thinking about for awhile. The Pharisees. They had to have the scriptures on their headwraps, not for reference, but to try to look important and Godly. Comparing Bill to them was an excellent point. The Pharisees were all for show........
Last edited by OriginalBama
Bill has got to be joking. He is the main person who tries to spin, twist, distort and otherwise screw around with what other people say to fit his own agenda. He and I had that discussion in another thread recently. Bill has lost all credibility with me and I see him for what he is, a holier than thou pain in the butt.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
He showed an honest and genuine love and concern for them. Simple as that...


Amen, Nash. Love God and love others - that's the meat and potatoes. I love 1 Corinthians 13:1-3...

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

p.s. Make mine a margarita, please. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by DHS-86:
Bill has got to be joking. He is the main person who tries to spin, twist, distort and otherwise screw around with what other people say to fit his own agenda. He and I had that discussion in another thread recently. Bill has lost all credibility with me and I see him for what he is, a holier than thou pain in the butt.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Whewwwwwwwww
I want an Ameretto sour with a 7up splash to begin. Then a Guiness poured in a non-frosty mug or some beertender is going to have it dashed in their faces. I want a Red Hook ISB while the Guiness is warming up, and if the jukebox has "Midnight Train to Georgia," I will act out all the Pips moves from honking the train whistle to making the wheels turn. If I am in a really good mood, I will do my Billy Boy Thornton impersonation of "Carl" in "Slingblade." A little more hooch and I will tell the story of the 300 lb bearded biker who was 6'4" tall that worked with me in NY and turned over three years from Mark to Melissa, the time he went to Times Square with me waiting in the car for him with a huge paper bag full of stuff, then as I was in rush hour traffic somewhere on the Long Island Expressway in either Queens or Nassau Counties, proceeded to gradually climb into the back seat, and then gear himself up with nipple clamps, bondage mask and gag ball in his mouth, hang out the open window and frighten the horses. The story gets funny after that. . .
Hi Nash,

You tell us, "Jesus didn't hide in a church and tell everyone who was going to Hell and who wasn't. Jesus went in to the homes of sinners, ate with them, spoke with them, and did something that Bill and the Pharisees of the time do not."

Yes, Jesus ate with the sinners, spoke with the sinners, and visited with the sinners -- for He wanted them to have eternal life. We read in Mark 2:17 "And hearing this, Jesus said to them, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"

He also told us in John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

And, because He truly cares about all people, because He truly would like for all to be saved -- He has given us -- you, me, all Christian believers -- the Great Commission found in Matthew 28:18-20: Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them. And, then He punctuated that by adding in Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Nash, I am not sure where you worship, if you worship, or what you believe. But, you have alluded to being a Christian and I will not attempt to refute that; I cannot. However, you seem to want to be a "stealth Christian." What do I mean by this? You want to be a closet Christian, i.e., I am a Christian -- but, I can't tell anyone about it; for they may think I am trying to convert them if I say I am a Christian. No, my Friend, Jesus did not tell us to be "stealth Christian" -- He told us to be "bold Christians" -- even to the remotest part of the earth.

The first part of that Scripture verse, Acts 1:8, tells us that we receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon us. What does this mean? It means that, at the very moment we receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior -- the Holy Spirit comes upon us and dwells within us -- forever. That is the power He has given us to be "bold Christians" -- and that is why He expects us to be "bold Christians."

Have you ever really looked at Acts 1:8? Where is your Jerusalem? It is your family, your home, your community, your city. Where is your Judea? It is your state; are you helping to share Jesus in your state -- or trying to hide Him? Where is your Samaria? It is your nation; are you helping to restore America to God -- or are you helping to evict God?

How about to the remotest part of the earth, your earth. Are you helping to share Jesus Christ with folks in other countries where they do not have the freedom and resources we have to worship Him? If you are not doing these things -- you are ignoring what He has told us in Matthew 28:18-20 and in Acts 1:8. You may call me a Pharisee because you do not like me sharing on the Forum; but, He calls me His Friend for sharing His Gospel.

Then, you add, "He showed an honest and genuine love and concern for them. Simple as that. That's what the gospels truly are. It's not a formula on how to get into Heaven. The Gospels are God's way of telling us how much He loves us."

There are books called the gospels. However, the only Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16-17, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'But the righteous man shall live by faith.'"

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, the apostle Paul talks about the Gospel by which we all are saved, "Now I make known to you, brethren, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

Then, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Paul goes on to more fully describe this Gospel of Jesus Christ, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

This, Nash, is the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and this is what He wants all who believe in Him and all who follow Him -- to share with the lost world. If you are not doing this; if you are a closet "stealth Christian" -- you are not doing what He has instructed you to do.

And, you say, "When folks like Bill try to make it look like atheists are the enemy and Christians have to defeat them, that's the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Christians don't say they are defeated, they say they are saved. How do you expect someone to find that personal experience of Christ when you try so hard to separate them from Christ with this stupid thread? Crap like this doesn't tell anyone that Jesus loves them, it tells them that you are against them."

Yes, we are to love and witness to the lost, the unsaved. But, those who mock God -- those who work diligently to keep the unsaved from hearing the Word of God -- those who will purposely mislead the weak and the young; those who hinder folks who want to seek but are on the wrong path -- and work to pull them away from God; how would Jesus treat them?

In Matthew 23:33, Jesus tells the scribes and Pharisees, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?" That sounds pretty straightforward to me -- and to the point. You have misled My people; you are going to hell!

And, we read in John 2:13-17 of Jesus' anger against the temple moneychangers, "The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; and to those who were selling the doves He said, 'Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business.' His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal for Your house will consume Me.'"

Nash, my Friend, the atheists may be very nice folks, they may help their neighbors, they may treat their wife like a queen and their children like young princes and princesses. However, when they denounce God publicly; when they work so diligently to pull folks away from God; when they mock God and His Bible; when they mock Jesus Christ -- do you not think that God looks at them as His enemies? He still wants to save them; but, their actions today are against Him -- and therefore, today they are His enemies.

If a person should come into your home and attack you wife, harm your children, burn your house, mock you -- would you consider him your friend -- or your enemy?

Personally, I have nothing against Deep, Fish, and all the other atheists and non-believers on the Forum. I would like to see them all become believers; but, I will not hold my breath. As I have said a number of times before; if I met Deep, Fish, Miami, and many of the others in person, I am sure I would find them to be very nice people.

Yet, when I find them posting articles and writings which I know are harmful to young or new believers, harmful to those who may just have begun to seek knowledge of God and Jesus Christ -- when I see articles and writings which I know could mislead some believers who are not mature in their knowledge of God's Word -- then, my Friend, I must speak out. To not do so would be to refuse the Great Commission Jesus Christ has given to all believers. I will not deny Jesus Christ -- just to be friends with anyone; especially atheists.

You might say, as I have seen some believers say, that you want to be their Friend in the hope that you will influence them to become believers. That is an admirable, but foolish gesture. Would you swim in a lake full of alligators; with the hope of saving one of them? I don't think so.

Next, you tell us, "As Christians, we're supposed to spread the Gospel. That doesn't mean convert the heathens (defeat the enemy). It means that are to tell the world about Jesus' gift. To accept that gift or not is not up to us, it's up to the individual.

First, to lead someone to eternal life in Jesus Christ is certainly not defeating them; but, instead it is defeating Satan. Yes, most assuredly, we are to share the Gospel -- in every possible way, to everyone who will listen -- to the ends of the earth. Does this mean that we are to convert folks? No, you and I cannot convert anyone. Our task is to plant the seeds; help water the seeds others have planted; and to be there for anyone who wants to know more about Jesus Christ, His free gift of salvation, and how a person might freely receive this gift. Only the Holy Spirit can convert anyone. But, Jesus wants us tilling the soil in preparation.

True, we cannot receive the free gift of salvation for another. Every person must make that choice himself/herself. Is is an individual and very important choice this person must make. And, not making a choice -- is making a choice. For, if one does not choose to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior -- he/she has, by default, chosen to follow Satan -- straight into hell.

You tell me, "It's our responsibility to help those who have accepted it, but not reject those who have not."

That is very true. However, many time the way we help those who have received His gift of salvation, or who might be on the verge of accepting this free gift -- is to make sure they are not fed false teaching. We do not reject the atheist and non-believer -- but, we vehemently reject atheistic teaching when it is aimed at these vulnerable folks.

Finally, you tell us, "That's why I say to anyone on these forums. I don't care if you're liberal, conservative, atheist, Christian, hell even Muslim. If you're in Nashville, I'll buy you a beer and no religion or politics discussion."

Last night in our Bible study, we were discussing something similar. The son of one of our members is here visiting from the Philippines. In the Makati City area of Manila; they have a church called the Church Simplified. What is this? It is a church with an emphasis on the younger generation, regardless of what they believe. They invite believers, non-believers, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., to their services. The services are tailored to appeal to the younger generation -- with their music, their approach to worship, etc.

Sounds like an ecumenical movement, right? But, no -- it is not. In the true world ecumenical movement as we see in the World Council of Churches and in the National Council of Churches -- this is a movement to bring all religions together in worship. In other words: Christians worshipping God, Muslims worshipping Allah, Buddhist worshipping Buddha, etc., everyone worshipping their gods or whatever -- together in the same church.

That would not make God very happy -- for He has told us, "There is no other God" and "You shall have no other gods." So, I don't think God would be too thrilled to have me sitting in church -- and turn to the guy next to me, asking, "Hey, Charlie, who or what are you worshipping today?" I think this would make Jesus about as happy as did the temple moneychangers.

But, back to my Friend's son in the Philippines. What is different about their church? Yes, they invite folks from all different beliefs and different cultures to the Church Simplified. However, all these folks are going to hear the Gospel, they are going to hear about Jesus Christ. Now, that is ecumenism in the form which pleases Jesus Christ. Go to all the folks, all the cultures -- and tell them about Him. Do as Andrew and John did when they first met Jesus -- go and bring your brother to Jesus. That is Christian ecumenism; that is sharing the Gospel to the ends of the earth. That pleases God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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Last edited by Bill Gray
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
Bill, I'm not reading all of that. If you want to respond, use the condensed version.

I'll buy you a beer too, same rule applies. No "lite" pisswater.
Hi Nash,

That is your problem. The people who are interested will read it. Those who are not; you can handle them.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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