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quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
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interventor

Under Lula de Silva Brazil is developing a capitalist state, to a degree. I suspect he realizes its the best way to pay for the social programs he espouses. But, its not a true capitalist state, yet.

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I forgot to answer this, Lula was an outspoken socialist when he was young and according to John Perkins, who wrote the book, "Confessions of an Economic HIt Man," Lula is basically being black mailed by the likes of people like him who's job it is to subjagate and help loot countries for the US and Corporations.

Seems he had a wild passed as a bright young student who was into drugs and women. Things the media harp on and doesn't play well with the public

But usually countries are kept in line through the IMF and World Bank that won't lend them money unless they tow the line.


If its in a book, how can it be blackmail? Knowing Brazil, if it were known da Silva had a past involving women, it would improve his chances of being re-elected. Much the same as a late president of France's mistress enhanced his career.

Its always a World Bank and IMF conspiracy, isn't it!
quote:
AS far as the Lincoln quote goes if I feel like it and have the time I will find it but you will find some reason to attack it. I realize that is not a good reference to just say I read it in an article but I don't care what you think cause you will just slander Lincon anyway so why bother?


If you have the time to respond to several posts, then you have the time to cite your source.

I'm not going to attack the quote, I want to know it's exact context. I find it interesting that you can't cite it.

Here is an example of what I'm looking for.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." - Lincoln, Gettysburg Pennsylvania 1863.

I'll make it easy for you here, just fill in the blank.

"Governments are to pave the way for workers." - Lincoln, ___________________

If you are unable to fill in the blank, then you should admit that the quote cannot be attributed to Lincoln and may not be accurate.
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They both have market economies imposed upon them by the IMF that forced Argentina's banks to fail and economy almost completly collapse.

Talk about silly claims try reading your posts, they usually are not wirth answering, and I don't. I have never made up anything and don't need to. Sorry if you are ignorant or unaware.


This is completely wrong. Argentina defaulted on their debts in 2001, and asked the IMF for assistance with debt restructuring a few years later. Beyond that, Argentina has never been a model for capitalism. Juan Peron ring a bell? The only time their runaway inflation seemed to come under control was during periods of privatization. Now, the state still owns airlines, energy companies, and the like. How is this a free market economy?

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The founders believed people had rights, a new and liberal concept for it's time of Kings, serfs and servants and it is the Right Wing that has rewritten what they said. I never said they promoted socialism but they did say it was the governments job to protect those rights. Today we expand those rights as I have pointed out in the past in the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed


At least you now acknowledge the difference in protecting and providing. Also, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is in no way a legally binding document - never has been. So, NO, we do not legally include anything other than what was set forth in the Constitution.
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dolemitejb

This is completely wrong. Argentina defaulted on their debts in 2001, and asked the IMF for assistance with debt restructuring a few years later. Beyond that, Argentina has never been a model for capitalism. Juan Peron ring a bell? The only time their runaway inflation seemed to come under control was during periods of privatization. Now, the state still owns airlines, energy companies, and the like. How is this a free market economy?


(Pogo) quote:
The founders believed people had rights, a new and liberal concept for it's time of Kings, serfs and servants and it is the Right Wing that has rewritten what they said. I never said they promoted socialism but they did say it was the governments job to protect those rights. Today we expand those rights as I have pointed out in the past in the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed

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dolmitejb

At least you now acknowledge the difference in protecting and providing. Also, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is in no way a legally binding document - never has been. So, NO, we do not legally include anything other than what was set forth in the Constitution.

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Who's debts where Argentina defaulting on? The IMF and World Bank's who demand Market Economies, and "Structural Adjustment," a euphanism for ending social spending, including schools and hospitals. They both had Market Economies that failed, and Argentina refused to repay it's debts and rebuilt it's economy. Market Economies like Venezuela and Boliva and other Latin American countries these economies fail the people while reenforcing existing oligarchies.

I am not against Market Economies but believe certian rights are inalienable, like civil liberties, health care, education, housing, the right to eat and the right to a job. It is the governments responsibility to serve all it's citizens. It's also in the countries best interests to see all it's citizens are protected and productive. Some people can't make it in this world and need help. I believe these people have the right to be helped.

The problem is most people are so indoctrinated they don't understand what Socialism is and that it is not Communism. You have Democrtic Socialist countries in Europe and Mixed economies also.

The US is bound by treaties it signs and the UN Declaration of Human Rights is one.
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intervevtor:


[quote]Originally posted by Pogo142:
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interventor

Under Lula de Silva Brazil is developing a capitalist state, to a degree. I suspect he realizes its the best way to pay for the social programs he espouses. But, its not a true capitalist state, yet.

_____________________________________________________________________________

I forgot to answer this, Lula was an outspoken socialist when he was young and according to John Perkins, who wrote the book, "Confessions of an Economic HIt Man," Lula is basically being black mailed by the likes of people like him who's job it is to subjagate and help loot countries for the US and Corporations.

Seems he had a wild past as a bright young student who was into drugs and women. Things the media harp on and doesn't play well with the public

But usually countries are kept in line through the IMF and World Bank that won't lend them money unless they tow the line.

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interventor:

If its in a book, how can it be blackmail? Knowing Brazil, if it were known da Silva had a past involving women, it would improve his chances of being re-elected. Much the same as a late president of France's mistress enhanced his career.

Its always a World Bank and IMF conspiracy, isn't it!

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Accusations of Lula's past are one thing, sensational photo's are another, especially with a willing press that will play it up everyday. They watch for potential leaders so there will be no more Che's.

John Perkins was what he calls "An Economic Hit Man" who worked for the benefit of major Corporations and the US. He worked through a phony front Corporation. I believe he was recruited by and through the CIA. Perkins says they watch for perspective and outspoken leaders and Lula was one. Either way he is a dissappointment to the left and the right.

The World Bank makes loans and countries go into debt, usually for projects that benefit major Corporations. Money goes to roads for the projects but not for the people of countries benefit. It is the Economic Hit Man's job to persude leaders to go along with the projects, through bribes, threats and such. Once in debt the IMF demands "Structual Adjustments" to social spending in return for the loan, like cutting money for schools, hosptials, and projects for the people while a small repressive or authoritartian oligarchy benefits.

Perkins is not the only one to say this as it has been written about by progressive writers, journalists and Aid Groups. Perkins is the first one from the inside to say it is so.
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Who's debts where Argentina defaulting on?


Their own.

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The IMF and World Bank's who demand Market Economies


The moment the IMF and World Bank become involved, a market based economy ceases to exist. The free market can't be forced onto countries.

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They both had Market Economies that failed, and Argentina refused to repay it's debts and rebuilt it's economy. Market Economies like Venezuela and Boliva and other Latin American countries these economies fail the people while reenforcing existing oligarchies.


Where did you learn the definition of free market? These countries are not free market economies and are horrible examples.

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I am not against Market Economies but believe certian rights are inalienable, like civil liberties, health care, education, housing, the right to eat and the right to a job.


If you believe that people have rights to all these things, you must then believe someone has an obligation to provide jobs, houses, food, etc... Whose obligation is that and how do they pay for it?

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It is the governments responsibility to serve all it's citizens. It's also in the countries best interests to see all it's citizens are protected and productive.


False

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Some people can't make it in this world and need help. I believe these people have the right to be helped.


What is "the right to be helped?" You have the right to help them, and no one has a right to interfere with you in that process. What you don't have is the right to force others to help "people in need."

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The US is bound by treaties it signs and the UN Declaration of Human Rights is one.


Wrong. It is not a treaty. Please provide evidence that it is.
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It is the governments responsibility to serve all it's citizens.


No it's the governments (US government under the Constitution) responsibility "protect" citizen's rights...not a "provider" of rigths, a protecter of rights.

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The problem is most people are so indoctrinated they don't understand what Socialism is and that it is not Communism. You have Democrtic Socialist countries in Europe and Mixed economies also.


No, most people do understand socialism, communism, and mixed economies...but those forms of government and economy are diametrically opposed to the freedoms and liberties guaranteed under the Constitution.
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Pogo142
[quote]quote:
It is the governments responsibility to serve all it's citizens.

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Renegade Nation:

No it's the governments (US government under the Constitution) responsibility "protect" citizen's rights...not a "provider" of rigths, a protecter of rights.

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Pogo
quote:

The problem is most people are so indoctrinated they don't understand what Socialism is and that it is not Communism. You have Democrtic Socialist countries in Europe and Mixed economies also.

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Renegade Nation

No, most people do understand socialism, communism, and mixed economies...but those forms of government and economy are diametrically opposed to the freedoms and liberties guaranteed under the Constitution

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Sorry to say Renegade your post is just double talk. Of course governments are to serve it's citizens, it's why we have them. Protecting Rights as the UN Declaration of Human Rights is one of those resposibilities and extends those rights. At the time of the Founders of the Country many Conservatives and Royalty did not believe people had Rights. It was a new and Liberal idea, just as expanding them to the Right to Eat and Shelter are today. As I point out it is in the governments inteterest for a stable government and economy to have full employment and productive and educated citizens.

Our current economic system has failed the people.

I also point out that Europe has Socialism and Democracy. Socialism is an Economic System and Democracy a Political System. You can have a Democratic Communist State as Nicagura was and Chile was becoming. Venezuela also has Democracy and is moving toward Socialism. The majority of the media is owned by those who oppose Chavez.

As the posts I read here and people I talk to most do not understand Socialism and how it is not Communism. Nor do they understand Communism.
Two things.

One: If everyone is supposed to get free food, housing, and health care, who is going to pay for it?

Two: If everyone gets their food, housing, and health care for free, why would they bother to work and produce anything?

Also, you still have not provided the context of the quote that you attributed to Lincoln. Please provide the location and date or admit the quote is inaccurate.
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Of course governments are to serve it's citizens, it's why we have them.


Could you please provide any historical context of people who viewed government as a service provider? I doesn't matter who philosophized it, just give me something to support your claims.

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Protecting Rights as the UN Declaration of Human Rights is one of those resposibilities and extends those rights.


Again, that was not a treaty, and has no legal authority. It was a feel-good document, nothing more. You still haven't proven otherwise.

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At the time of the Founders of the Country many Conservatives and Royalty did not believe people had Rights. It was a new and Liberal idea, just as expanding them to the Right to Eat and Shelter are today.


I don't know what your point is. However, the Founders were pretty clear in what they wrote, and they wrote nothing that supports anything you say.
Pogo

"Venezuela also has Democracy and is moving toward Socialism. The majority of the media is owned by those who oppose Chavez."

Chavez is transitioning Venezuela to communism, not socialism. He admitted his Bolivarian circles were actually soviets -- armed soviets. He has shut down most of the media that opposed him. So far, his replacement of cronies with experienced personnel in the oil industry and failure to spend one cent on maintenance of the equipment has resulted in falling production. His land redistribution program to make Venezuela more productive resulted in increasing agricultural imports increasing from $1.5 billion annually to $5 billion annual.
He had to revalue the currency 50 percent because of inflation, which is continuing. Chavez stated he would seize stores that raised prices. Expect to see closed stores or soviet style ones with long lines and few goods. So far, its like clockwork. I've seen this same farce over and over, but the left still thinks they will get it right this time. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
[quote] Pogo:
"Venezuela also has Democracy and is moving toward Socialism. The majority of the media is owned by those who oppose Chavez."
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inteventor


Chavez is transitioning Venezuela to communism, not socialism. He admitted his Bolivarian circles were actually soviets -- armed soviets. He has shut down most of the media that opposed him. So far, his replacement of cronies with experienced personnel in the oil industry and failure to spend one cent on maintenance of the equipment has resulted in falling production. His land redistribution program to make Venezuela more productive resulted in increasing agricultural imports increasing from $1.5 billion annually to $5 billion annual.
He had to revalue the currency 50 percent because of inflation, which is continuing. Chavez stated he would seize stores that raised prices. Expect to see closed stores or soviet style ones with long lines and few goods. So far, its like clockwork. I've seen this same farce over and over, but the left still thinks they will get it right this time. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity.


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As I have followed Venezuela Chavez has closed one TV Station by denying to renew their license because of their participation in the illegal coup against him, he was reinstated by the massess of people and a coup by other military officers agaisnt the criminals who seized power and were loyal to the Constitution. He has problems with the media becasue it is privately owned by the wealthy, like here, and they oppose his policies to help the poor.

He has set up Soviet Style co-op's but the people to run the factories themselves. The oil industry opposed him and tried to call a strike and he replaced them. He is the elected President.

He has allowed families who have lived on land for decades to own the land finding it productive to have self ownership ratherr then squatters.

He is currently the target of a US destabilization campaign, I have seen these signs before but he has also been a bit too ambitous and has over extended himself. A funny thing though, when an industry, claims they can't do better and there are shortages he threatens to Nationalize the Industry and suddenly they produce and there are no shortages.

He is villified for his belief of an independent Latin America and break away from the US control or "sphere of influence."

He lost his referendum for a 3rd term and has stated he will step down.
quote:
As I have followed Venezuela Chavez has closed one TV Station by denying to renew their license because of their participation in the illegal coup against him, he was reinstated by the massess of people and a coup by other military officers agaisnt the criminals who seized power and were loyal to the Constitution. He has problems with the media becasue it is privately owned by the wealthy, like here, and they oppose his policies to help the poor.

He has set up Soviet Style co-op's but the people to run the factories themselves. The oil industry opposed him and tried to call a strike and he replaced them. He is the elected President.

He has allowed families who have lived on land for decades to own the land finding it productive to have self ownership ratherr then squatters.

He is currently the target of a US destabilization campaign, I have seen these signs before but he has also been a bit too ambitous and has over extended himself. A funny thing though, when an industry, claims they can't do better and there are shortages he threatens to Nationalize the Industry and suddenly they produce and there are no shortages.

He is villified for his belief of an independent Latin America and break away from the US control or "sphere of influence."

He lost his referendum for a 3rd term and has stated he will step down.


So where would you rather be living right now, Venezuela or America?

Also, I haven't forgotten about that Lincoln quote you posted. Please provide the context or acknowledge that the quote is not accurate.
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Our current economic system has failed the people.


Holy crap...the truth finally comes out! Yes you are 100% correct the "current" economic system has failed us.

It is time to end the government tinkering with the economy of the past century...time to end federal subsidies and entitlements that are bankrupting us. It is time to either end or severely limit the Fed. An institution that has caused untold harm to our economy, business growth, savings, etc. through artificially manipulating the interest rate and having a government granted monopoly on counterfeiting money.

Yes it is time to abandoned our "current" economic system and let the Free Market Reign!
“As I have followed Venezuela Chavez has closed one TV Station by denying to renew their license because of their participation in the illegal coup against him, he was reinstated by the massess of people and a coup by other military officers agaisnt the criminals who seized power and were loyal to the Constitution. He has problems with the media becasue it is privately owned by the wealthy, like here, and they oppose his policies to help the poor.”
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Then, you haven’t kept up! This is the work of a power mad dictator in the classic Latin American caudillo mode.

“Chávez silences critical TV station - and robs the people of their soaps
Protests as private network loses licence to broadcast after 53 years on air”

That was RCTV in May 2007.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/medi...nezuela.broadcasting

“Hugo Chavez closes 34 Venezuelan radio stations” 2 Aug 2009

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...-radio-stations.html

“Chavez minister vows more Venezuela radio closings Sep 5, 2009
Radio stations to be pulled after 34 closed in August
* Critics say hits free speech, government says democratic
* Anti-Chavez TV network in the spotlight over coup rumor
CARACAS, Sept 5 (Reuters) - Venezuela will pull the plug on 29 more radio stations, a top official in President Hugo Chavez's government said on Saturday, just weeks after dozens of other outlets were closed in a media clampdown.”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN0520744720090905

“CARACAS, Venezuela — When Venezuelans tune to Globovision, they see protests against faulty public services or a talk show guest saying Hugo Chavez could be executed by his opponents, just like Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.
Now Chavez seems to be gearing up for a final showdown with Globovision, Venezuela's only remaining opposition television station on the open airwaves.
Broadcast regulators are investigating the all-news channel for inciting "panic and anxiety" during a minor earthquake when it criticized the government for slow response.”
May 16, 2009
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...ti-cha_n_204646.html
"“He has set up Soviet Style co-op's but the people to run the factories themselves.”
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Again, old varmint, you've either not kept up or are playing dumb to Chavez's machinations.

“Venezuela's 'Bolivarian Circles' draw new criticism for alleged role in violence”
“the Fifth Republic Movement (MVR), which has become an organ
of the state and routinely uses the country’s resources. Beyond MVR, the government has
created extra-constitutional private paramilitary mobs called “Bolivarian Circles” that routinely
threaten, beat and even kill political opponents. The government has recently equipped, armed,
and sworn in a new “reservist” army of citizen revolutionaries to act as guarantors of the
revolution and act as a check to the military establishment. It has stripped the regime’s critics of
basic human rights and driven hundreds of them into exile. It is squeezing the life out of the
remaining pro-democracy opposition movements, even charging their leaders with “treason,”
“rebellion,” and “disobedience.”
http://www.venezuelanet.org/WhattodoaboutVzla.html

“A nationwide network of so-called Bolivarian Circles (Círculos Bolivarianos) and violent groups like the Tupamaros consisting of armed thugs routinely attack Chávez’s political opponents. Also, the OAS Inter-American Commission on Human Rights has criticized the state for failing to prosecute hundreds of cases of extrajudicial killings and for not investigating “death squads” operating in the country.”
Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, “Follow-up Report on Compliance by the State of Venezuela with the Recommendations Made by the IACHR in its Report on the Situation of Human Rights in Venezuela (2003),” Annual Report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights 2004, OEA/Ser.L/V/II.122 Doc. 5 rev. 1, (Washington, D.C.: Organization of American States, 2005), paragraph 165, available at www.cidh.org/annualrep/2004eng/chap.5b.htm
“He has allowed families who have lived on land for decades to own the land finding it productive to have self ownership ratherr then
squatters.”
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Wrong, many of the settlers were urban dwellers with little knowledge of farming. In typical central planning mode the government tore up sugar cane field to plant corn. Of course, in the low lands used for cane growing the corn crop failed as the land was flooded.

"Agriculture sector at stake in Venezuela November 27, 2009

Growers fear that the interventions applied by the National Lands Institute (INTI) last November 16 in the states of Guárico, Zulia and Táchira, among others, will further deteriorate production

Fears of deteriorating agricultural sector
The Venezuelan government policy of "land recovery" over the past few years, far from powering domestic primary production, has resulted in disincentive and divestiture both in animal husbandry and agriculture.

Growers fear that the interventions applied by the National Lands Institute (INTI) last November 16 in the states of Guárico, Zulia and Táchira, among others, will further deteriorate production.

While public servants have claimed that the targeted farms were idle, growers' associations and owners are positive that their farms were producing at top capacity.

In addition to the regulations imposed on the agricultural sector in terms of prices and marketing, in 2009 the output has dwindled due to the worst weather conditions over the past few years.

In the case of Guárico -where nine plots of land were intervened- the farms located on the basin of River Tiznado produced in the latest sugarcane harvest, recently ended, 70 million kilograms of white and yellow corn, accounting for 30% out of 190,000 tons produced this year in that state, as reported by Carlos Albornoz, Director General of the Venezuelan National Confederation of Farmers' Association (Fedeagro).

However, this year, as a result of the drought, the local corn production fell down 75 percent, from 575,000 tons in 2008 to 190,000 tons.

Guárico state supplies 55-58 percent of the domestic corn consumption.

Local growers think that the intervention of productive lands adversely affects the development of the national production apparatus, as the premises are given to unskilled people and the site eventually becomes precisely what the State punishes: wastelands.

In Zulia state, two farms used for dual-purpose cattle breeding were intervened.

Carlos Benavides, the president of the Ranchers and Farmers' Association of Colón Municipality (Aganaco), reported that the La Milagrosa farm, property of ex Maracaibo mayor and main opposition leader Manuel Rosales, processes 1.300-1,800 liters of milk a day; 50-60 steers quarterly and about 15,000 kilograms of plantains every 15 days.

He noted that the intervention will further reduce local primary production, which has already declined 60-70 percent over the past six years.

Much more at: http://english.eluniversal.com...r-a_27A3124491.shtml
"He lost his referendum for a 3rd term and has stated he will step down."
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Old varmint,

Wrong! Or just highly misinformed? From the Guardian:

“Referendum lets Chavez run for third term
Tristan Dewar
Issue date: 2/27/09 Section: World
On Feb. 15, Venezuelan voters threw their support behind President Hugo Chavez's referendum to abolish term limits imposed on the presidency and other elected positions. At the same time, voters seemed to repudiate the decision they made in 2007.

The vote on this referendum falls only fifteen months after voters rejected a similar referendum proposed by Chavez. At that time, Chavez vowed to continue pursuing the referendum, even as he lauded his country for harnessing the power of the vote.”
More at: http://media.www.guilfordian.c...d.Term-3653477.shtml
The First referendum he lost and accepted the results. It had other issues which were not supported by the people so Chavez removed the issues and won a chance for a 3rd term.

I have not followed Venezuela's ecconomy that close as I see he is a target of a US destabilization campaign.

The station he refused to renew the license too had participated in the illegal coup against him. I think if that happened here people would understand. IF business leaders and Generals overthrew the government and a TV Station broadcast lies and supported it it would lose it's license here also. Not only that they would face prison along with the other coup participants but nothing happened to them.

They have made economic mistakes ut he gave homeless people who had lived on government or unclaimed land the right to the land. That was a good move and gave people "personal responsibility." Remember that term?
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The First referendum he lost and accepted the results. It had other issues which were not supported by the people so Chavez removed the issues and won a chance for a 3rd term.

I have not followed Venezuela's ecconomy that close as I see he is a target of a US destabilization campaign.

The station he refused to renew the license too had participated in the illegal coup against him. I think if that happened here people would understand. IF business leaders and Generals overthrew the government and a TV Station broadcast lies and supported it it would lose it's license here also. Not only that they would face prison along with the other coup participants but nothing happened to them.

They have made economic mistakes ut he gave homeless people who had lived on government or unclaimed land the right to the land. That was a good move and gave people "personal responsibility." Remember that term?


Pogo, did you read anything Inteventor gave you? I went through it, the info he posted dismantled everything you just stated.

Be honest, did you read his posts and check his links?

Also, I'm still waiting on the citation from the Lincoln quote. The reason I keep harping on it is to prove that the "progressive" rags you read aren't as accurate as you believe.
I couldn't get the guardian link, (I am at work and this computer won;'t get it)

Funny interventor should quote the Huffington post a site he calls a rag that just "cuts and pastes" news.

The key to the TV stations and radio stations are the coups and this quote,
"Earlier this week, he threatened severe measures against any media inciting unrest."

How long would we tolerate a station that calls for the President, wether Obama, or Bush, to be shot and hung up side down like Mussolini. I am talking about the so called"resposible " Media you are defending. The Media in Venezuela, like America, is owned by the wealthy, they oppose his policies. At least the article has the decency to state he has the suport of 59% of the people, that's a majority and more then Bush ever got.

This is the typical distortion of destabilization programs. I am not saying there is not so truth in it but it's distorted to fullfill and agenda of slander and not the full story. I have seen them used against Allende in Chile, the Shandinistas in Nicaruaga and even Saddam, though I did not suport Saddam.

Why don't you point out where you say he refutes what I have said?

Ha, I haven't looked for the Lincoln quote yet but it's a time factor. I have enough trouble trying to keep up with these posts and my job, family and friends. I wonder, do you some of you who are on all the time have a Life? I mean that in a joking way, not trying to insult people but sometimes I do other things then post.

My sources are accurate.
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Pogo, did you read anything Inteventor gave you? I went through it, the info he posted dismantled everything you just stated.

Be honest, did you read his posts and check his links?

Also, I'm still waiting on the citation from the Lincoln quote. The reason I keep harping on it is to prove that the "progressive" rags you read aren't as accurate as you believe.


Pogo conveniently glosses over anything that proves him wrong. He has either ignored or not understood a number of my responses to him in this thread and others.
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I have enough trouble trying to keep up with these posts and my job, family and friends. I wonder, do you some of you who are on all the time have a Life? I mean that in a joking way, not trying to insult people but sometimes I do other things then post.


You keep bringing this up. I suspect it is your scapgoat for not being able to prove your own claims. The pattern seems to be pretty clear.

1) you make an outrageous claim
2) someone completely debunks it
3) you respond that you're too busy to read and post here

I can only speak for myself, but I don't devote time to these forums. It is something I do when I'm bored, and I imagine many others are the same. Do you have just enough time to be wrong, but not enough time to prove you're right?
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Ha, I haven't looked for the Lincoln quote yet but it's a time factor. I have enough trouble trying to keep up with these posts and my job, family and friends. I wonder, do you some of you who are on all the time have a Life? I mean that in a joking way, not trying to insult people but sometimes I do other things then post.


I find that hard to believe. You have enough time to make multiple posts and I'm sure still keep up with the latest leftist blogs. That's an excuse to dodge the question.

It only takes about 10 seconds if the quote is authentic. Please provide the date and location for the quote "Governments are to pave the way for workers" that you attributed to Abraham Lincoln. If you can't do it, then you have to admit that the quote is not accurate.

The reason for this is to show you that biased information, either extreme right or extreme left, is not very reliable.
I've given proof that Chavez closed one TV station and 59 radio stations. And, is planning to close a second TV station. That Amnesty International reports his Bolivarian Circles are goons attacking dissenters and forming death squads.

That working farms were seized and turned over to persons knowing nothing of agriculture. That farm production is dropping rapidly. That the oil industry is being destroyed.

That Chavez is planning to be president for life. Why does the left like these authority figures so much -- no father figure, or simply masochism!

Chavez is turning Venezuela into another Zimbabwe following the classic communist agenda.
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interventor:

I've given proof that Chavez closed one TV station and 59 radio stations. And, is planning to close a second TV station. That Amnesty International reports his Bolivarian Circles are goons attacking dissenters and forming death squads.

That working farms were seized and turned over to persons knowing nothing of agriculture. That farm production is dropping rapidly. That the oil industry is being destroyed.

That Chavez is planning to be president for life. Why does the left like these authority figures so much -- no father figure, or simply masochism!

Chavez is turning Venezuela into another Zimbabwe following the classic communist agenda.

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And I have given you the reason why he refused to renew the stations licenses, calling for him to be shot and hung upside down like Mussolini would get a station in trouble here to, it's illegal to threaten the life of the President.

We are seening a destabization program in progress, I have seen them before. Mugabee did not handle it well but so far Chavez iss onee step ahead of the game, Despite your warped rhetoric he still has the support of 59% of the people. More then Bush ever had.

The Fact that you have to keep claiming victory shows your "evidence" shows nothing.
"And I have given you the reason why he refused to renew the stations licenses, calling for him to be shot and hung upside down like Mussolini would get a station in trouble here to, it's illegal to threaten the life of the President."

No, that was the reason you stated for the first TV station's closure, not the closing of the 59 radio stations and, threatening one other TV station. Please give documentation for all of the above.
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"We are seening a destabization program in progress, I have seen them before. Mugab"ee did not handle it well but so far Chavez iss onee step ahead of the game, Despite your warped rhetoric he still has the support of 59% of the people. More then Bush ever had."

So, you agree Chavez is deliberately destabilizing Venezuelan society so as to seize all power. None of the leftists do it well. It always results in loss of freedom, severe deprevationfor the populace and years of misery. None of the iron curtain nations maintained there form after the collapse of the USSR.

The poll is run by Chavez. You'd expect another results!
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"The Fact that you have to keep claiming victory shows your "evidence" shows nothing."

No claim of victory, however you haven't refuted any of my evidence with anything but rhetoric. And, tired old rhetoric.

Shorten the lines you use to separate the comments. That's why you're going over the margins.
It is the typical US Destablization Program, as I stated in a previous post. I saw it in Chile, Nicaragua, Zimbabwa, Haiti, etc and have read about in Iran, Guetemala the Congo and so forth.

Chavez is trying to keep things stable.

I stated why the stations were refused to have their license renewed. If a TV station cooperated in a a coup or said the President should be shot they would lose their license also, besides being sent to jail for threatening the life of the President.

He still has the support of the people.

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