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A man by the name of William Jefferson Clinton owned a car it sure wasn't new or perfect but all in all in very good working order and he turns it over to a feller named simply W who never changed the oil,drove it hard,never rotated the tires,went "muddin",just abused it and then this cat turns it over to a man named Barry and he was driving it to the repair shop to get it repaired but it broke down and as Barry is looking it over a group of hicks pull up and start screaming at him for damaging such a classic car although these same hillbillies just giggled and said "thats our boy" as W ran it wild, not sure if the hicks were uninformed of W's neglect or some just singled out Barry because he wasn't one of them even as Barry pleaded "I have only owned the car 15 minutes" the hicks moaned "how long you gonna blame our boy......In my words "It's A SAD DAY"
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That kind of sums it up but Bill didn't really take such "Great" Care either and saw problems coming that he did pass on to W, to be fair about it.

BUt W just made it a lot worse and now Barry is getting all the blame. Except he is just makeing cosmetic changes that are not at the root, like just changing the oil. It needs a complete overhaul but those hillbillies won't let him, evenb if he tried.

If he wants to is another question as he goes to the same people W went to to advice.
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Black:
A man by the name of William Jefferson Clinton owned a car it sure wasn't new or perfect but all in all in very good working order and he turns it over to a feller named simply W who never changed the oil,drove it hard,never rotated the tires,went "muddin",just abused it and then this cat turns it over to a man named Barry and he was driving it to the repair shop to get it repaired but it broke down and as Barry is looking it over a group of hicks pull up and start screaming at him for damaging such a classic car although these same hillbillies just giggled and said "thats our boy" as W ran it wild, not sure if the hicks were uninformed of W's neglect or some just singled out Barry because he wasn't one of them even as Barry pleaded "I have only owned the car 15 minutes" the hicks moaned "how long you gonna blame our boy......In my words "It's A SAD DAY"


Alright I'll hop down to simpletonville to reply. The 20% of support Obama has lost in less than 1 year have been from independents who voted for Obama. Are they racists hicks too?
You left out the part about the type of car. Was it a foreign made job or made by Union labor? Did it burn gasoline or was it electric? Did Bill pay for the car? or was it a hand me down from someone? My guess is that it was in pretty good shape until Bill got a hold of it and.... that was probably when he decided it needed a new louder "Pioneer" stereo and some spinner rims on it. Probably even had a little hula doll on the dash that jumped around when he "hopped" it up and down the street. Of course "W" had to take it and have it steam cleaned to get all the stains off the seat and throw the porn away that Bill had stashed under the seats, not to mention the ash tray which was full of cigar ashes and God knows what else..
You guys need to really keep on blaming Bush for all your ailments, it sure seems to be working wonders for you right now....LOL. Never have I seen such a party of inept nimrods who have managed to self destruct in less than a year's time.
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Ronnie P

Alright I'll hop down to simpletonville to reply. The 20% of support Obama has lost in less than 1 year have been from independents who voted for Obama. Are they racists hicks too?

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Obama is losing support from many voters who expected him to give us chnage, instead he is just giving us the same old stuff. Help the bankers and a weak stimulous plan that caused a slight bump but will not be enougfh to kick start the car (economy).

Increasing the war in Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by Pogo142:
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Ronnie P

Alright I'll hop down to simpletonville to reply. The 20% of support Obama has lost in less than 1 year have been from independents who voted for Obama. Are they racists hicks too?

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Obama is losing support from many voters who expected him to give us chnage, instead he is just giving us the same old stuff. Help the bankers and a weak stimulous plan that caused a slight bump but will not be enougfh to kick start the car (economy).

Increasing the war in Afghanistan.


I disagree. Obama has given us more "change" then we've ever seen before. It's just not the change people thought it would be. That is why he is losing support. Look for his support to drop even more this year.
Then Barry, while not taking in the fact that the hillbillys and hicks had "pulled up" in an "operating" car, and thus knew something of what it took to keep a car running,was even more embarrassed at the appearance of the car.
So, wanting to impress his friends who resided in the "The Big Club House", Barry had the car towed to the body shop, where a fresh, new paint job was applied.
Beaming with pride, Barry showed the world his "New" car. And all was well...until Barry tried to start the car...which still needed repairs to the engine.
And as the car was not running, it simply sat there.
And as the car was not properly prepared before the new paint was applied, when the rains came, the winds blew, and the sun shined down upon the car, the "shiny" new paint quickly faded.
And the car still would not run.
So, Barry had it painted again...and again...
quote:
Originally posted by rum_runner:
Then Barry, while not taking in the fact that the hillbillys and hicks had "pulled up" in an "operating" car, and thus knew something of what it took to keep a car running,was even more embarrassed at the appearance of the car.
So, wanting to impress his friends who resided in the "The Big Club House", Barry had the car towed to the body shop, where a fresh, new paint job was applied.
Beaming with pride, Barry showed the world his "New" car. And all was well...until Barry tried to start the car...which still needed repairs to the engine.
And as the car was not running, it simply sat there.
And as the car was not properly prepared before the new paint was applied, when the rains came, the winds blew, and the sun shined down upon the car, the "shiny" new paint quickly faded.
And the car still would not run.
So, Barry had it painted again...and again...

and the moral of that story is "that you can't polish a turd". Barry instead needed to listen to the "hillbilly" and "hicks" who knew something about cars and what it takes to make one operate.
Actually, as proved on Myth Busters, you can polish feces.


'''You can’t polish poop.

busted

Adam and Jamie visited a zoo to obtain a variety of feces to try to polish. They tried to pick the most polishable candidates and baked them to remove the moisture. Adam tried to shine his poop with a buffing wheel, while Jamie reasoned that using a wax polish would result in a shine. Adam eventually sought the advice of an outside expert, who showed him that it was possible to apply a shine to dirt with a tedious technique. Applying this technique, Adam and Jamie were able to obtain very polished poop without using any foreign materials like polish.'''

That's how you get politicians!
quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence Black:
quote:
Barry instead needed to listen to the "hillbilly" and "hicks" who knew something about cars and what it takes to make one operate.



It is wise to take advice but foolish to listen to advice from those who put you in the jam

which is why Barry needs to stop listening to the Democratic Congress and his Socialist cronies. They don't know anything about "cars".....duh!
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Pogo: [quote]Obama is losing support from many voters who expected him to give us chnage, instead he is just giving us the same old stuff. Help the bankers and a weak stimulous plan that caused a slight bump but will not be enougfh to kick start the car (economy).

Increasing the war in Afghanistan.
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Ronnie p

I disagree. Obama has given us more "change" then we've ever seen before. It's just not the change people thought it would be. That is why he is losing support. Look for his support to drop even more this year.

The best social program is a JOB


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And what change would that be?

And full employment is a goal and a demand of the Socialist Patry. The jobs have to be there in the first place.
quote:
The jobs have to be there in the first place.


The notion that a job is "there in the first place" is fallacious. Full employment is the equilibrium of supply and demand for labor. Demand for labor, at any given time, cannot be changed by "creating jobs." You must let the market reach equilibrium without government interference.
quote:
And what change would that be?

And full employment is a goal and a demand of the Socialist Patry. The jobs have to be there in the first place.

quote:
And what change would that be?

And full employment is a goal and a demand of the Socialist Patry. The jobs have to be there in the first place.


Yeah, but everyone would be working for the government.

Socialist and communist countries claim to have full employment, but it's not really true. There is an old Soviet expression, "You pretend to work, they pretend to pay".

If you eliminate small business through unions and increasing socialist programs, then you also eliminate the majority of the jobs out there.

In a free market society, a lot of people work for themselves. They create their own jobs based on filling a demand in the market. As demand grows, so does their business and they look for additional help to keep up. A job is created right there. The better the business does, the more help is needed, and more jobs are created.

If you look to the government to create jobs for you, then it creates a government dependency which is dangerous. You can't have true liberty or freedom if you are dependent on a government for your livelihood.
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NashBama:

Yeah, but everyone would be working for the government.

Socialist and communist countries claim to have full employment, but it's not really true. There is an old Soviet expression, "You pretend to work, they pretend to pay".

If you eliminate small business through unions and increasing socialist programs, then you also eliminate the majority of the jobs out there.

In a free market society, a lot of people work for themselves. They create their own jobs based on filling a demand in the market. As demand grows, so does their business and they look for additional help to keep up. A job is created right there. The better the business does, the more help is needed, and more jobs are created.

If you look to the government to create jobs for you, then it creates a government dependency which is dangerous. You can't have true liberty or freedom if you are dependent on a government for your livelihood.


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Everyone in Soclialist countries does not work for the government
You combine Socialism with Commiunism and it's not what I said. But I do believe like in China you can mix Communism with independent businesses. The Importors I work with from China are indepndent from the government. They use Central Planning
China is also a repressive government with no real democracy and that will lead to decay, as it did in the Soviet Union and is happening today in America.

Unions do not "eliminate small businesses " although Cooperatives have been working in Latin America, especially Argentina and Brazil where Capitalism has failed and the owners abandoned the factories.

Europe has Soclalism and independent businesses and democracy.
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dolemitejb

The notion that a job is "there in the first place" is fallacious. Full employment is the equilibrium of supply and demand for labor. Demand for labor, at any given time, cannot be changed by "creating jobs." You must let the market reach equilibrium without government interference.

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That is one of the functions of the government, to make sure it's citizens have jobs and are productive. It is both serving the people and the country itself.

Our Declaration of Independence says governments are instituted by men to ensure the inalienable righst of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Lincoln said governments are to pave the way for workers.
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That is one of the functions of the government, to make sure it's citizens have jobs


You just made that up out of thin air. It's fine, I guess, if you personally believe that, but don't act as if it is a universal truth.

quote:
Our Declaration of Independence says governments are instituted by men to ensure the inalienable righst of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.


First of all, the Declaration of Independence is not the document that gives the government its power - that would be the Constitution. Beyond that, it does not say "ensure." It says "secure." "Ensure" implies government owes you something. "Secure" means that the government exists to protect your natural rights. A job is not a natural right.
quote:
Everyone in Soclialist countries does not work for the government
You combine Socialism with Commiunism and it's not what I said. But I do believe like in China you can mix Communism with independent businesses. The Importors I work with from China are indepndent from the government. They use Central Planning
China is also a repressive government with no real democracy and that will lead to decay, as it did in the Soviet Union and is happening today in America.

Unions do not "eliminate small businesses " although Cooperatives have been working in Latin America, especially Argentina and Brazil where Capitalism has failed and the owners abandoned the factories.

Europe has Soclalism and independent businesses and democracy.


If a government over taxes a business, over regulates a population, and re-distributes funds to others, then everyone works for the government. It may appear on the surface that independent businesses exist, but a business can't be truly independent if the government takes their profits and calls the shots on how it's run. That's the very definition of socialism.

China has a terrible human rights record. Remember what happened in Tienanmen Square, students wanted freedom and they were silenced by the government. China may be making tons of money, but the people are hardly free.

Unions eliminate small businesses in two ways. First, why would anyone go out to start a business when they are making money, getting benefits, and they only have to put in a set number of hours a week and only do a specific job? People who aren't in unions have choices if they aren't happy with their wages. Get a job with a competitive company, learn a new trade and change careers, or go into business for themselves. If a single international union existed like you want, those choices would not exist.

Second, once someone starts a small business, how can they afford to pay union scale wages and offer union demanded benefits if everyone is unionized? It would be impossible, therefor the business would be limited in it's size or cease to operate. The result is less job creation in the future and a lack of product or service needed in the market.

You've already been given ample information showing that European countries are starting to move away from socialism. It doesn't work there and people are starting to come to their senses. Socialism is one of those concepts that sounds good on the surface, but fails when put into practice. It simply gives government more power and takes power and freedom from individuals.
quote:
Our Declaration of Independence says governments are instituted by men to ensure the inalienable righst of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.


No it doesn't. It says that our inalienable rights are endowed to us by our Creator. It also says that the government's job is to "secure" those rights, not ensure them. That particular government answers directly to the people. If those rights are not secured, as in the case of the British Crown in regards to the American Colonies, then the people have the right to get rid of that government and start a new one.

If you look at socialist countries in the past, you'll see that the first thing that goes is the pursuit of happiness. High taxation and heavy regulation is part of socialism. The more someone succeeds and produces, the more is taken away from that person by the government and redistributed. To keep control, the government passes more legislation and nationalizes more private industry. This limits people's freedom to pursue their own way in life.

Next, liberty goes out the window. With every new law and new government program, the people become less free. When a government nationalizes all the banks, the health care, and other businesses, they remove competition. Without competition, people lose their power to choose. The power to choose is liberty, once that is gone we're down to one right.

You'll also notice that in socialist countries such as Cuba, Venezuela and Myanmar, to maintain power the government instills fear. People who are too verbal in their criticisms are imprisoned. Cuba is notorious for the percentage of their population that is locked up. Speak out too much and you'll just disappear. Publicly protest and the government will shut you down. Remember what happened in Myanmar a few years ago. In socialist countries, if you challenge the authority, the authority will violate the first right listed in the Declaration of Independence. You lose your life.

History has shown that a free market will prosper, a socialized economy will fail.

quote:
Lincoln said governments are to pave the way for workers.


When did Lincoln say that and where was it said?
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Pogo(Quote)

Argentina and Brazil where Capitalism has failed

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Dolemitejb:

Neither of these countries have ever had a market based economy (Capitalism). In fact, can you name a country with a market economy that has "failed," as you say?

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I just did, I guess you haven't been paying that much attention to South America much the lat 10 years. Except of course Chavez and Morales who the Corporate Media tell you are, "Bad, Very Bad." Coloumbia, of course, where the governemnt related right wing death squads kill a couple thousand people a year, many teachers, labor leaders, organizers etc, are GOOD! Smiler

Also, it's in the interest of the Nation to see to it that it's citizens produce and they have jobs for a stable economy that produces. Also an educated one. Common sense, which the Founders of this country had, tells us this.

As far as the Lincoln quote goes Nash, I read it in an article in the publication "In These Times." A Progressive Magazine in an article on Corporate Power. Lincoln saw the power back then Corporations could wield and believed in a stronge Federal Government to protect workers and small businesses.

Anyone is free to checkout the Counterpunch site. It's way ahead in facts and insight then other publications and as I say the co editor Alexander ****burn has been writing since the early 1970's. He also writes for the Nation Magazine and was offered a column by the Wall Street Journal in the 80's as a Progressive counter to their conservative op writers. He turned it down.

Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitic.

The people that were there first have a right to the land, like the Native Americans. Problem is the Jews were gone when the Arabs arrived by then7th century, there was no Israel, it was just referred to as Palestine and part of Egypt and a part of Syria in the north. The Palestinians were there before the 1870 Europeans.

You didn't answer my question, what are the settlements?

Yes, liberrty goes out the wqindow with every new law, like the PATRIOT ACT 1 and 2 and privacy.

Compitition has not helped the Health Care indsustry as we se4e the mess we are in and Wall Street just Crashed.
At the start of the 20th century, Argentina was one of the richest states in the world, Peron and his wife ruined the nation with extravagant spending and a program that destroyed the business sector.

Carlos Menem, in the mid-1990's supposedly converted the state capitalism to free market. However, in actuality, he simply sold the assets to his friends -- crony capitalism, who were incompetent to run them. Pretty much what happened in Russia.
quote:
As far as the Lincoln quote goes Nash, I read it in an article in the publication "In These Times." A Progressive Magazine in an article on Corporate Power. Lincoln saw the power back then Corporations could wield and believed in a stronge Federal Government to protect workers and small businesses.


That's not what I asked. I asked you to provide the date and location of the quote you attribute to Lincoln. Please either provide the context of the quote, link the article where you read it, or retract it. I want to know if Lincoln really said that or not.

The rest of your post is responding to a different discussion in a different thread, I'll respond to the rest there.
""Lincoln said governments are to pave the way for workers."

"As far as the Lincoln quote goes Nash, I read it in an article in the publication "In These Times." A Progressive Magazine in an article on Corporate Power. Lincoln saw the power back then Corporations could wield and believed in a stronge Federal Government to protect workers and small businesses.""

Sorry, Pogo, NO! The quote attributed to Lincoln cannot be found in any database search. Attributing it to "In These Times," a regressive magazine, is even more suspect. Frankly, it reads like one of those quotes attributed to Lincoln which appeared in Red pamphlets duirng the 1920's and 1930's. Of course, Lincoln never said any of the supposed quotes.
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es, liberrty goes out the wqindow with every new law, like the PATRIOT ACT 1 and 2 and privacy.


Exactly, and you want the same government that passed the Patriot Act to nationalize the banks and health care industry? One one hand you distrust the government, then on the other you want to entrust them with everything. You can't have it both ways.

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Compitition has not helped the Health Care indsustry as we se4e the mess we are in and Wall Street just Crashed.


Sure it has. Look at Lasik surgery. It started out expensive and has gotten cheaper and better quality as surgeons compete for business. Insurance and Medicare/Medicaid rarely if ever pays for Lasik, so it's left to the free market. The result, lower prices and better quality.

I'll take our health care system over Canada's, England's, or Cuba's any day. I know you're going to cite that UN funded and flawed survey that ranked our health care beneath theirs, but it's simply not accurate. The reality is that people flock to the US from countries with socialized medicine to pay for better care out of their own pockets while being taxed to death in their own country.
Pogo,

One additional thing...

I don't object to anyone holding any particular set of beliefs - no matter how much I disagree with those beliefs. If you want to come out and say "I, Pogo, would like to live in a socialist country because I think socialism is the best economic system available," that is fine. What you really should stop doing, however, is making silly claims. Don't accuse capitalism of failing in situations where it didn't exist to being with. Don't re-write the Founding Fathers words to try and make it sound like they would agree with your socialist beliefs. Own your beliefs, and let people disagree with you, but don't make stuff up.
They both have market economies imposed upon them by the IMF that forced Argentina's banks to fail and economy almost completly collapse.

Talk about silly claims try reading your posts, they usually are not wirth answering, and I don't. I have never made up anything and don't need to. Sorry if you are ignorant or unaware.

The founders believed people had rights, a new and liberal concept for it's time of Kings, serfs and servants and it is the Right Wing that has rewritten what they said. I never said they promoted socialism but they did say it was the governments job to protect those rights. Today we expand those rights as I have pointed out in the past in the UN's Declaration of Human Rights, which the US signed

AS far as the Lincoln quote goes if I feel like it and have the time I will find it but you will find some reason to attack it. I realize that is not a good reference to just say I read it in an article but I don't care what you think cause you will just slander Lincon anyway so why bother?

The US spends the most on Health Care and ranks 36th, or 37th, behind all these nations with socialized medicine of some form.

I want a doctor who is there because he wants to help people, not because he scored high on his tests and wants to make a lot of money.
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interventor

Under Lula de Silva Brazil is developing a capitalist state, to a degree. I suspect he realizes its the best way to pay for the social programs he espouses. But, its not a true capitalist state, yet.

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I forgot to answer this, Lula was an outspoken socialist when he was young and according to John Perkins, who wrote the book, "Confessions of an Economic HIt Man," Lula is basically being black mailed by the likes of people like him who's job it is to subjagate and help loot countries for the US and Corporations.

Seems he had a wild passed as a bright young student who was into drugs and women. Things the media harp on and doesn't play well with the public

But usually countries are kept in line through the IMF and World Bank that won't lend them money unless they tow the line.
quote:
The US spends the most on Health Care and ranks 36th, or 37th, behind all these nations with socialized medicine of some form.


As none of the measurements used by countries are the same, those statistics are suspect, at best.

Infant mortality, for instance, is listed as high when compared against other nations. However, that's because US hospitals try to safe premmies, whom most nations would simply list as still births. The results are more premmies in the US survive, but a higher infant mortality rate is listed. In Germany, an infant who is delivered to term, at full weight, but dies about 48 hours after birth, is counted as a still birth, resulting in a lower infant mortality rate.

Which system would you wish your child to be born under?

Adult mortality rates are another. Once homicides and deaths in traffic accidents are removed, US citizens live the longest in the western world. How would healthcare changes change accident deaths and homicides? I'd really like to read that corellation!

Most of the advances in medicine are in US. Destroy the system and say good-by to that!

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