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Soldiers do not realize, until too late, the contempt in which they are held by their betters. Here is the psychological foundation of the hobbyist wars of bus-station presidents. If you are, say, a Lance Corporal in some miserable region of Iraq, I have a question for you: Would your commanding general let you date his daughter? I spent my high-school years on a naval base, Dahlgren Naval Proving Ground as it was then called. Dahlgren was heavy with officers, scientists, and engineers. Their daughters, my classmates, were not allowed to associate with sailors. Oh yes, we honor our fighting men. We hold them in endless respect. Yes we do.

For that matter, Lance Corporal, ask how many members of Congress have even served, much less been in combat. Ask how many have children in the armed services. Look around you. Do you see many (any) guys from Harvard? Yale? MIT? Cornell? Exactly. The smart, the well-off, the powerful are not about to risk their irreplaceable sit-parts in combat. Nor are they going to mix with mere high-school graduates, with kids from small towns in Tennessee, with blue-collar riffraff who bowl and drink Bud at places with names like Lenny’s Rib Room. One simply doesn’t. One has standards.

You are being suckered, gang, just as we were.

(excerpted from: "It Floats; Addendum to Clausewitz"; December 17, 2006, by Fred Reed; http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm )
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="Dogs and GI's keep off the grass." A sign in Augusta, Ga. where I had boot camp.

="Baby Killer" my first college class after Vietnam when a girl discovered I was a veteran.

="Holley" a derrogatory term used for GI's in Hawaii, their daughters weren't allowed to talk with us..

="You're out of uniform" a National Guardsman told me this at church....

=I walk home from the bus station, 7 miles, in full uniform carrying my duffle bag because noone would give me a lift. [my parents didnt know I was coming home]

=In the small town [200 people] where I came from noone acknowledged my service in any way..

-There was an "inquiry" in 1966 because too many poor whites and blacks were coming home in bodybags...never knew what happened to that "inquiry"...


There are others, but I won't bore you with them...some things never change..
Shoals Lover, I can agree with your post on so many members of Congress not knowing what it is like for our military, yet they get to decide their fate. Some of that blame goes to the VOTERS.

As to singling out soldiers as not being the best choice for one's daughter. Could the same not be said for many college age guys, frat members, sports jocks, lawyers, and so on?

Yes, soldiers have always had a rep as living it up (when someone is not shooting at them.) The US Government sets up brothels for them in foreign lands (no joke.) But when it comes to putting their life on the line when the other groups of people I mentioned don't, then I can take the bad with the good now and then.

God bless our military men and women and their families.
Joy, I am 61 now...never thought I would reach that age......I have wished many times that I could forget those years, and the fact that my hometown forgot about me [sometimes I feel that I am just being childish...it sounds that way sometimes], but when the soldiers from that small town returned from Iraq, they gave them parades, parties, etc....the physical wounds have healed...but I can't go home anymore...
Oh, Elijah, I am so sorry. I didn't mean to be insensitive. I'm 38, so I don't remember that time. It may not help, but I imagine the memory of such ignorant disregard plagues those involved. I can't take back what they did, but I can tell you my generation was taught to respect you and be grateful to you for your service to our country and bravery in the face of death.

I always feel like thank you is not saying enough. I owe all of you, those that serve or have served in the military, a debt I cannot repay. I have a neighbor that didn't see his little girl until she was almost a year old because he was serving in Iraq. That's almost more than I can stand. How do you thank someone for THAT?

IS there anything we as civilians can do for our military? Those that have served and are now serving, please give us ideas on how to respond. IS there a way to repay or at least let you know what you mean to us?
My take since I am active duty military, a Major, and former battery commander in charge of 120-155 soldiers during my 19 month tenure in command, to include combat.

I would not allow my daughter to date 75% of the soldiers currently in. Why? What do most 18-22 high school educated people do when they get away from home for the first time? Simple: They go WILD. I lost count how many times I got the call at 0300: Sir, this is staff duty. You have PVT____ and SPC___ down at the Chatham/Liberty/Bryan County Jail for [underage drinking; fighting; DUI; etc]. You need to come pick them up....Joe has probably more money, independence, etc. than he ever has had before. Naturally, they go wild. Same as college kids. All are for the most part immature to a degree. They don't know what they want in life yet. Same principle as the deck being stacked against a young couple 18-22 getting married...most likely divorce court coming within 5-10 years if they make it that long (seen too many today to count).

So ask yourself this: would YOU allow your daughter to marry or date an immature 18-22 year old? Me says no. FYI: just over 5 years ago, I dated a 20 year old when I was 29. I knew her a grand total of 13 months, 6 of that we dated. Maturity level she had was no way the maturity level of me. I had seen and done things in my 29 years that no way a 20 year old could comprehend. It is called growing up and maturing. I just had a 9 year head start. She wanted to get married ASAP to get away from home. Me, I wanted to wait for her to finish college and mature. She dumped me....and came calling a year and a half later...I told her to get lost, I am engaged. Fool me once, your a fool. Fool me twice, I am the fool. I am no fool. I married a person who has a Master's, and who has experienced life and knows life is not always fair. Something 18-22 year olds for the most part do not realize yet. Again, most, but not all (things DO happen that cause folks to mature quickly, sometimes good, sometimes and most often bad).

Next, we do NOT have a draft. You want to join, fine. You dont' want to join, fine. All this B.S. about our leader's not allowing their sons/daughters join is B.S. Your an adult at 18. You can choose whether or not to serve. Secondly, how many of our leaders have served anyways? Not many. Some scated the draft or military in the 1960's. Some protested Vietnam, some did not. Some served, some did not.

This is America. Currently, you have a choice. Me, give me 10 soldiers who WANT to joion versus 100 draftees who did NOT want to join. The draft was a victim of Vietnam also, due to this.
To be honest, I'd prefer she didn't date at all until she gets her degree and a good job (assuming this actually happens). I still say the maturity level alone for a soldier vs. the average college guy is a step up. However, the point is moot because my daughter is 19 and I no longer control who she dates.
Last edited by _Joy_
Some may say I'm crying in my milk..I have never talked about this to anyone, not even my wife or my own family...it is a part of who I am now...I do not regret serving, but I do have bitter feelings about what people say about soldiers in the Vietnam era. I lost a friend from Hamilton..he was the best, a college student drafted because he couldn't afford to stay in college... We lost, because we weren't allowed to fight....politicians saw to that..the GI's in Vietnam were the ones who didnt come from rich families who could afford college...poor black and white kids..
Again, not sure if this will help, but...our government may not hold themselves & others accountable for their actions during & immediately after Vietnam, but God does. We have to answer for the things we have done and for the things we neglected to do while here on this earth. There's a reason He will wipe away every tear; there will be tears. Those that confessed, repented & tried to make right their actions know the horror of what they inflicted on soldiers coming home from Vietnam every day they live here & it would plague their conscience. Those that do not confess, repent and make right their actions during that time will get a sentence I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Last edited by _Joy_
Response To Major
You are totally correct...I have 28 years + in the military service. Serving from a U,S Army UH1-B Model Huey during the Vietnam area, to later transfering to the Coast Guard Reserves, and presently serving out of the Destin Coast Guard Rescue/Search Station. I have not always enjoyed every minute of the service, but I find myself re-enlisting at the end of each duty period. No-one forced me to sign up initially or re-enlist several times. Now! at the age of 57, I have 1.5 years to go , before I have to retire. I have a deep sense of sadness about leaving.
I look back on my military experience as some of the worst and best experiences of my life. The Military teaches a young person responsibility, and gives them the opportunity to experience the world. Maturity comes with time and experience of living. Put those together and you get some of the finest people you will interact with.

Personally, I don't think we need a draft, that is ole hat thinking...but we do need a National Service Requirement...with no exemptions for anyone...that service can cover several different areas of service from Governmental Civil Service, Medical, Law Enforcement, Military, etc..
Just as most young men and women do not have the maturity or knowledge, as what they really want to do, when they enter the military...neither does the average high school student when they get into college...4 years service in the National Service will do several things...
Get them away from home and out of the influence of their family and current friends...Broaden their view of the world and get to experience other cultures...this developes respect for others and tolerance of other cultures...serving your country builds patrotism and pride in being an american...it allows them to move throughout the system and get a touch of reality of what the actual job, they thought they wanted requires...It allows maturity to start developing and they will make a better decision at 22 years of age instead of 18 years as to what they really are interested in...
The facts are most kids should not be in college...but would be better off in some professional skill that pays even
such as electrical,computers,mechinics,metal skills, agricultural skills, marine skills, Food Skills, and so on...Somewhere along the way...Americans have been sold a bill of goods that "everyone" must get a college degree...That's bull! Not everyone is suited for college. How many college degree individuals do you see working for 8.00 to 12.00 a hour, when if they had gotten a trade skill would have started at 15.00 and top out above 35.00 a hour Plus...
There are too many kids ending up with a high college bill at the end of the paper chase to start paying it off with a 7.50 hour job...
Doesn't make sense...
So! Yes major! you are totally correct when you see the displayed immaturity among you're young troops...but they too will change just as you and I did from there mature ways to feeling positions of responsiblity just has you have...

I found out a long time ago...that god gave us three tools to create our lifes... thoughts...words...deeds...don't like how you life is going...no magic to needed to change it...simply change your thoughts....how and what you talk about.....and your present actions to something different...your life will change accordingly...
quote:
Originally posted by elijah1945:
="Dogs and GI's keep off the grass." A sign in Augusta, Ga. where I had boot camp.

="Baby Killer" my first college class after Vietnam when a girl discovered I was a veteran.

="Holley" a derrogatory term used for GI's in Hawaii, their daughters weren't allowed to talk with us..

="You're out of uniform" a National Guardsman told me this at church....

=I walk home from the bus station, 7 miles, in full uniform carrying my duffle bag because noone would give me a lift. [my parents didnt know I was coming home]

=In the small town [200 people] where I came from noone acknowledged my service in any way..

-There was an "inquiry" in 1966 because too many poor whites and blacks were coming home in bodybags...never knew what happened to that "inquiry"...


There are others, but I won't bore you with them...some things never change..


Wow, Elijah.. just Wow... you painted the picture SO real of that Era. I respect you!!! I know what you did was noble!!! And, I APPLAUD YOUR SERVICE!!! Men like YOU is what made the backbone of this country... Thank you!
quote:
Originally posted by traderconnections:
Response To Major
You are totally correct...I have 28 years + in the military service. Serving from a U,S Army UH1-B Model Huey during the Vietnam area, to later transfering to the Coast Guard Reserves, and presently serving out of the Destin Coast Guard Rescue/Search Station. I have not always enjoyed every minute of the service, but I find myself re-enlisting at the end of each duty period. No-one forced me to sign up initially or re-enlist several times. Now! at the age of 57, I have 1.5 years to go , before I have to retire. I have a deep sense of sadness about leaving.
I look back on my military experience as some of the worst and best experiences of my life. The Military teaches a young person responsibility, and gives them the opportunity to experience the world. Maturity comes with time and experience of living. Put those together and you get some of the finest people you will interact with.

Personally, I don't think we need a draft, that is ole hat thinking...but we do need a National Service Requirement...with no exemptions for anyone...that service can cover several different areas of service from Governmental Civil Service, Medical, Law Enforcement, Military, etc..
Just as most young men and women do not have the maturity or knowledge, as what they really want to do, when they enter the military...neither does the average high school student when they get into college...4 years service in the National Service will do several things...
Get them away from home and out of the influence of their family and current friends...Broaden their view of the world and get to experience other cultures...this developes respect for others and tolerance of other cultures...serving your country builds patrotism and pride in being an american...it allows them to move throughout the system and get a touch of reality of what the actual job, they thought they wanted requires...It allows maturity to start developing and they will make a better decision at 22 years of age instead of 18 years as to what they really are interested in...
The facts are most kids should not be in college...but would be better off in some professional skill that pays even
such as electrical,computers,mechinics,metal skills, agricultural skills, marine skills, Food Skills, and so on...Somewhere along the way...Americans have been sold a bill of goods that "everyone" must get a college degree...That's bull! Not everyone is suited for college. How many college degree individuals do you see working for 8.00 to 12.00 a hour, when if they had gotten a trade skill would have started at 15.00 and top out above 35.00 a hour Plus...
There are too many kids ending up with a high college bill at the end of the paper chase to start paying it off with a 7.50 hour job...
Doesn't make sense...
So! Yes major! you are totally correct when you see the displayed immaturity among you're young troops...but they too will change just as you and I did from there mature ways to feeling positions of responsiblity just has you have...

I found out a long time ago...that god gave us three tools to create our lifes... thoughts...words...deeds...don't like how you life is going...no magic to needed to change it...simply change your thoughts....how and what you talk about.....and your present actions to something different...your life will change accordingly...


VERY well said!!!, I lived during the Vietnam Era... brother, fiance, friends, all being drafted,.... the fear, the tears the dread of those of us at home that sincerely DID NOT understand was immense, at best.

Then, when our guys started coming home, and started being treated horribly it was painful to all of us, but alas, who was I but a young girl who knew NOT what to do.

Now, many years later, I understand more, and my respect for anyone who has the GUTS to do what it takes to protect us is at an all time high.

One thing for sure, Military WILL take the ''child'' out of a kid, and put the ''adult'' there... seen it more times than I can count... or even remember.
quote:
Originally posted by elijah1945:
Some may say I'm crying in my milk..I have never talked about this to anyone, not even my wife or my own family...it is a part of who I am now...I do not regret serving, but I do have bitter feelings about what people say about soldiers in the Vietnam era. I lost a friend from Hamilton..he was the best, a college student drafted because he couldn't afford to stay in college... We lost, because we weren't allowed to fight....politicians saw to that..the GI's in Vietnam were the ones who didnt come from rich families who could afford college...poor black and white kids..


Elijah... I know how Viet Vets were and still are treated... I never understood that... still dont. I was too young back then to have my say, and "girls" were to be wives and mothers, so our opinions were not too validated, but we still SAW what happened, we still KNOW the changes in those we loved that went to Vietnam... Politics, all of it was just bad politics and my heart went out to each and every one of you MEN. Still does... Thank you so much for sharing this, and giving me the opportunity to THANK YOU!!!! And to let you men know that even in our youth, we STILL knew it was wrong, but didn't know what or how to stop it...

I am just praying that Iraq is not another Vietnam Frowner
"... but we do need a National Service Requirement...with no exemptions for anyone...that service can cover several different areas of service from Governmental Civil Service, Medical, Law Enforcement, Military, etc.."

Amen, and amen!

I've advocated that for quite some time!

Imagine what we could do to our local, state and national infrastructure if we got EVERY person (and I mean EVERY) person under age 25 involved for two years in contributing to our local, state and national well-being. They should receive compensation similarly to that which we give our service members. In fact, imagine what we could do if we allowed them to cooperatively work with private enterprise on government projects, and encouraged business to hire them by allowing them to subsidize 1/2 their salary.

Just dream what can be.

Our only limitations are the naysayers.

Those in wheelchairs could contribute, as could the blind. There's no reason why they can't work! They work already.

Imagine what that could do for our roads!

Imagine what that could do for our park systems!

Imagine what that could do for our electrical power grid!

Imagine what that could do for our public water & sanitary sewerage systems!

Imagine what that could do for our businesses & entrepreneurs!

Imagine what that could do for our nation!

Imagine what that could do for our people!

Amen, and amen!

AMEN!
Kindred, thank you...but anytime something like this comes up, you and I both know where the real thanks lie...I was lucky, I got to come home...I got to live to an old age...those who didnt come home, and those who came home missing limbs, or with dreams that won't go away..those are the real heroes and I use their influence everyday to push me..thank you again Kindred...that makes me feel good...
quote:
Originally posted by elijah495:
Kindred, thank you...but anytime something like this comes up, you and I both know where the real thanks lie...I was lucky, I got to come home...I got to live to an old age...those who didnt come home, and those who came home missing limbs, or with dreams that won't go away..those are the real heroes and I use their influence everyday to push me..thank you again Kindred...that makes me feel good...


Welcome back Screechowl... didnt know you were Elijah, but no matter, you still have my utmost respect. And I know exactly what you are saying, and Just know that you did the right thing for yourself, and ALL of us!!!! You were not alone over there, we were with you in Spirit.

Glad you lived your life, and seem to be very well adjusted to everything that happened during that Era....

Just ALWAYS remember that there are those of us who deeply respect that you did, and deeply CARE about what you did!!! Please never forget that!!
My brother served in Nam and i was on my way when peace was declared and medic were no longer needed. So i did not go, but i remember the names we were called and i remember that My brother was not welcomed back.
We had to be careful of our own usa, more of my buddies got beat up and were hospitalized because of being military, that the was itself.

I am proud of our troops and our men and women who protect us. i just wish that in the 60 and 70 we were not considered scum.
been there done that.
quote:
Originally posted by rogerrisner:
My brother served in Nam and i was on my way when peace was declared and medic were no longer needed. So i did not go, but i remember the names we were called and i remember that My brother was not welcomed back.
We had to be careful of our own usa, more of my buddies got beat up and were hospitalized because of being military, that the was itself.

I am proud of our troops and our men and women who protect us. i just wish that in the 60 and 70 we were not considered scum.
been there done that.


The way that our troops were treated by our very own gov't who SENT them there was just horrible, just plain horrible. It still hurts today to remember all that. Some pains never end.... Frowner

But, Roger, for what its worth, there WAS some of us out here that loved and respected each and every one of you who did your job for our Country!!!

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