Trump Fights Non Existent War on Coal

Trump has deregulated the coal industry.  He has regularly patted himself on the back because this was going to produce "so many jobs."  However, the only real effect will be the worsening environmental quality from said deregulation.

With the automation of the coal industry, it is highly unlikely that any jobs will return.  

Per Mr. Seib of the Wall Street Journal on CBS News, "Industry is moving on a long term path away from coal and that's not going to stop."

Per Fox News, Robert Murray whom runs a large coal company stated, "what the President is doing can't bring mining jobs back."

Only 16% of energy consumption in the United States is in the form of coal.  There are less than 70,000 jobs linked to coal production, while renewable energy sources account for over 650,000 jobs in the US.

So there you have it, another Trump promise that was clouded in b.s.   Sure, he can deregulate the industry, but it is a dying industry and those jobs aren't coming back.   The great duper has duped the American public again.

"A free press can, of course, be good or bad, but, most certainly without freedom, the press will never be anything but bad."  - Albert Camus

Original Post
MonkeysUncleByMarriage posted:

Sadly stanky can't understand that the country has moved away from coal and what is left is highly automated thus the jobs trump promised during the campaign for miners won't return regardless of deregulation.  Rationale and logic often evades the right.

Sadly liberals can't comprehend that some conservatives have a memory longer than a liberals addled mind. Ol'bama came into office promising to put coal fired plants out of commission and power companies took him seriously. It's a good thing that fracking technology provides abundant natural gas and one of Ol'bama's crony capitalists just happens to sell combined cycle gas turbine generation equipment or we could be as screwed as Germany on a cold windless winter night.

Obama’s Following Through With Promise to Bankrupt Energy Companies

http://dailysignal.com/2016/04...pt-energy-companies/

How Electricity Became a Luxury Good

Germany's agressive and reckless expansion of wind and solar power has come with a hefty pricetag for consumers, and the costs often fall disproportionately on the poor. Government advisors are calling for a completely new start.

http://www.spiegel.de/internat...energy-a-920288.html

 

 

jtdavis posted:

For all you good intentioned posters, TVA started the war on coal the day Bush changed TVA from a 3 full time member board to a 9 member part time board. I was there and I saw it.

To quote the shoals musician Jason Isbell, I Thank God for the TVA.  Coal is horrible for our environment.  "Clean coal" is a fallacy. 

MonkeysUncleByMarriage posted:

Stanky using smoke and mirrors doesn't address the crux of the argument.  Trump promised jobs to a certain sect of workers in a field where those jobs are not coming back (a fact admitted by titans of the industry) regardless of the deregulation.  Why can you not follow along?

Trump is a mere mortal; I believe the people in coal country know that too. Eight years of total war on coal isn't going to be changed overnight and workers need to feed their families, so many of those workers have left the area. Because Ol'bama EPA rules helped push coal fired plants out of existence and lower steel production has hurt coking coal production as well, it's going to take a good bit of time for mines to hire back in areas that are losing population. More than likely people are going to be replaced by machines and the people who are left will either be too old or infirm or have gone on to other professions.

 

The EPA rules aren't even relevant here.  As stated, even deregulating the industry will change nothing.  Not because of the environmental rules, but because of AUTOMATION, they have already been replaced by machines.  

As the WSJ and Coal Industry Titans have expressed, the jobs just aren't coming back, regardless of what Trump does.   Trump knew that when he told people he was going to bring the jobs back.

http://time.com/4570070/donald-trump-coal-jobs/

http://triblive.com/business/h...urn-appears-unlikely

http://www.vox.com/energy-and-...ump-coal-mining-jobs

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/2...coal-epa-regulation/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/t...ises-or-regulations/

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...-20170329-story.html

EPA regulations are more than relevant:

The natural gas renaissance has helped to cause the decline of the coal industry through its use of hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling technology, causing average natural gas prices to electric utilities to decline 64 percent since 2008. But what has pushed the closure of coal power plants is the Obama Administration’s adoption of more stringent standards to regulate carbon dioxide emissions that it believes contribute to climate change, and to further regulate pollutants that it believes are harmful to human health, despite regulations already in place that have been very effective. For example, criteria pollutants (sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide, ozone, lead and particular matter) declined by 63 percent between 1980 and 2014, despite gross domestic product increasing 147 percent, population increasing 41 percent and energy consumption increasing 26 percent between those years.

http://instituteforenergyresea...rican-industry-coal/

Industries so screwed over by crony capitalist despots don't rebound overnight and only a simpleton would expect an instant miracle. Even if EPA regulations relax now, utilities don't know who will be president in 2021 and I doubt that they can permit and build a new coal plant before then even if the costs are feasible now. So yes, any coal country recovery is going to be very slow.

There is no miracle, instant or otherwise.   There will be no recovery.  I guess you know more than the people who actually own coal companies.   Renewable energy is where everyone is going.   Coal will not rebound.   Chrissakes, that's like thinking the horse and buggy industry, with the right time frame and motivation could come back and compete with cars.  It is ludicrous.  

MonkeysUncleByMarriage posted:

There is no miracle, instant or otherwise.   There will be no recovery.  I guess you know more than the people who actually own coal companies.   Renewable energy is where everyone is going.   Coal will not rebound.   Chrissakes, that's like thinking the horse and buggy industry, with the right time frame and motivation could come back and compete with cars.  It is ludicrous.  

Actually there is some possibility for a small comeback, it's from exports. Reports are that the world economy is starting to thaw and the choice in fossil fuels in Europe are natural gas from the unstable Russian Republic, oil from insane Islamic countries, or coal from Appalachia or western low sulfur coal. Of course, everyone in Europe might choose to tilt at windmills like quixotic Germany.

US coal exports higher in November, including China-bound cargoes

 

US coal exports totaled 5.95 million mt in November, up 34.8% from the prior month and up 39.2% from the year-ago month, US Census data showed Friday.

MonkeysUncleByMarriage posted:

When I say the industry isn't coming back, I mean the jobs.  We are steadily moving away from coal, regardless of exports.   But the jobs were doomed anyway, even had we not moved away from coal and that's due to the highly automated process now that doesn't require the miners. 

And I have proven that the jobs were doomed primarily by the politics of the last administration, so much for Dems caring about the "little man". Given the carnage on the coal industry by Il Douche, just being able to tread water is doing good. 

MonkeysUncleByMarriage posted:

It would appear most outlets, media and business publications, as well at the owners of coal companies would disagree with your assessment.  But anyway you can attempt to blame OBAMA!!!.. by all means.   

Dire, you do realize that even China just shut down 4 coal plants right?

Along with building ghost cities with no people, China is building power plants to supply them. 

China May Be Building $500 Billion Worth of Unnecessary Coal Plants

http://fortune.com/2016/11/28/...cessary-coal-plants/

But when demand and supply catch up, they intend to build more coal plants.

Obama sycophant publications might say market forces killed the Coal industry, trade organizations and miners along with non-Dem publications and some honest liberals differ with that view. The major end user of coal was pushed to remove coal capacity by regulations:

http://www.cfact.org/2016/01/1...ault-on-an-industry/

https://thethoughtfulcoalminer...ama-has-killed-coal/

http://instituteforenergyresea...rican-industry-coal/

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/0...bama-climate-change/

https://www.bostonglobe.com/op...rddwiWxUI/story.html

http://www.cnsnews.com/comment...oal-clean-power-plan

https://mises.org/blog/did-free-market-kill-coal

We will agree to disagree.  There is enough literature and support from publications that I would say are far from liberal that do not lay the demise of coal on Obama. But again, you are having a separate discussion, using smoke and mirrors to detract from my original point.

The point was, regardless of whether the coal industry makes a comeback (it won't), those jobs were lost to automation, so Trump patently lied (shocker right!) when he promised all those miners would be put back to work.

Nature resources is a supply and demand question for global
population when the birth rate doubles the death rate everyday.  
 
That to me is an almost off subject but important concern as
auto gas mileage, which doesn't necessarily need to be gasoline
or electric.
We need all natural resources but a tree is best suited as a living
resource. That's just me.
   

Who is it that keeps asking, "who are the deranged liberals saving it for"? Why  should I be interested in saving anything for the Muslims and people like the left have shown themselves to be? To **** with them. All they want to do is oppress and bully anyone that doesn't think like they think, and in the case of the Muslims, do away with all other religions, and they have the support of the left in doing just that. So, I'm not very intrested in "saving" a **** thing for them. A vast wasteland is what I wish for them and their spawn.

Coal miners will be going back to work with an increase in demand coming primarily from coal-fired power plants throughout 2017, said the head of the Energy Department's energy analysis arm on Tuesday.

"Higher coal-fired electricity generation in 2017 is expected to contribute to a boost in U.S. coal production this year," said Howard Gruenspecht, acting administrator of the Energy Information Administration, in issuing the new monthly short-term energy outlook.

The new short-term forecast shows coal mines rising from their lowest production numbers in nearly 40 years to experiencing a 3 percent increase in production in 2017 due to a surge in demand from coal power plants, the agency said. The forecast shows coal mining production increasing by 1 percent in 2018 as power plant demand continues to increase.

The new forecast should be welcome news for President Trump, who has vowed to put coal workers back to work. The changes are primarily market driven, however, and not due to any policy shift. Nevertheless, the shift could give Trump some necessary wiggle room as he gets his energy agenda off the ground in the coming months.

"Coal use by the U.S. electric power sector is set to increase during 2017 as higher natural gas prices cause some power plant operators to run more coal-fired generation," Gruenspecht said.

Natural gas is expected to continue to dominate electricity production over the next two years, the acting administrator said, underscoring the nation's recent switch from using primarily coal to generate its electricity to using primarily natural gas.

Nevertheless, coal-fired power plants will be "coming in a close second," the acting head of the agency said, suggesting that although natural gas power plants are increasing in number, natural gas is not overtaking coal by a large margin.

The new forecast projects that the nation's share of electricity generation from natural gas will drop 2 percentage points in 2017, moving from 34 percent last year to an average of 32 percent in 2017 as natural gas prices climb higher.

Natural gas prices are expected to rise from an average of about $3 per unit to nearly $4 per unit by next year. They have hovered around $2 for years due to the fracking boom that transformed the nation into a global energy powerhouse.

 

http://www.washingtonexaminer....rk/article/2614154#!

 

There are signs of life from the coal industry, as some mining companies are starting to hire again. 

Fox News correspondent Mike Tobin reported from a coal mine in Hazard, Kentucky, that was shuttered in the Obama administration years, but is now operating again. 

One lifelong coal miner told Tobin he's thankful to be working again after a three-year hiatus. 

 

http://insider.foxnews.com/201...r-trump-takes-office

direstraits posted:

What I believe is that all sources of energy should be available. The government shouldn't be involved in purposely destroying a source.

The goobermint shouldn't rig the energy markets or just like Germany, we'll have pensioners shivering in the cold. The market still remains the best decision maker for energy choice. Some places near natural gas pipelines might be better served by combined cycle gas turbine plants while other places might be better served by a coal plant (with scrubbers) and there might be some places well served by wind turbines with a backup system for times when the wind isn't blowing. Also, if one can get over the ***ashima fear and regulators don't drive up costs too much, nuclear power can make sense. Then again, mebbe the Lockheed skunk-works folks will come through and all discussions will be moot.

Stanky posted:
direstraits posted:

What I believe is that all sources of energy should be available. The government shouldn't be involved in purposely destroying a source.

The goobermint shouldn't rig the energy markets or just like Germany, we'll have pensioners shivering in the cold. The market still remains the best decision maker for energy choice. Some places near natural gas pipelines might be better served by combined cycle gas turbine plants while other places might be better served by a coal plant (with scrubbers) and there might be some places well served by wind turbines with a backup system for times when the wind isn't blowing. Also, if one can get over the ***ashima fear and regulators don't drive up costs too much, nuclear power can make sense. Then again, mebbe the Lockheed skunk-works folks will come through and all discussions will be moot.

I keep hoping their fusion research succeeds.

direstraits posted:
Stanky posted:
direstraits posted:

What I believe is that all sources of energy should be available. The government shouldn't be involved in purposely destroying a source.

The goobermint shouldn't rig the energy markets or just like Germany, we'll have pensioners shivering in the cold. The market still remains the best decision maker for energy choice. Some places near natural gas pipelines might be better served by combined cycle gas turbine plants while other places might be better served by a coal plant (with scrubbers) and there might be some places well served by wind turbines with a backup system for times when the wind isn't blowing. Also, if one can get over the ***ashima fear and regulators don't drive up costs too much, nuclear power can make sense. Then again, mebbe the Lockheed skunk-works folks will come through and all discussions will be moot.

I keep hoping their fusion research succeeds.

I keep hoping too. I'd like to live to see the science fiction of fusion powered spacecraft become science fact. 

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