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For those who are so sure there is no God, whether agnostics or atheist or whatever, I am curious as to what makes you so sure that God doesn't exist?  What are the factors that brings you to your determination that there is no God and that we are all there is?  

For those same persons who do not believe in God do you believe there is an existence after physical death?  By that I mean do you believe in ghost or spirt beings, life or beings outside of human fleshly bodies?

 

Be as the Bereans ( Acts 17:11 )

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gbrk posted:

For those who are so sure there is no God, whether agnostics or atheist or whatever, I am curious as to what makes you so sure that God doesn't exist?  What are the factors that brings you to your determination that there is no God and that we are all there is?  

For those same persons who do not believe in God do you believe there is an existence after physical death?  By that I mean do you believe in ghost or spirt beings, life or beings outside of human fleshly bodies?

 

GB, how many times have the atheists on here gone over this and listed the reasons for their non-belief in a god, AND that there is NO existence after death.

Okay GB, let me ask you this:  Could an omnipotent god have stopped hurricane Katrina?  Then why didn't he?  Was hurricane Katrina part of his plan - his perfect plan?  Then this perfect loving god wanted people, including innocent infants, to suffer and die?  Or, this loving god just didn't care?  This loving god was indifferent to the suffering of people?  

Salt, it might be like this, just as the park rangers in wild life
reserves, especially in Africa, they aren't allowed to interfere
with the basic instincts of nature that govern the animals. 

 

With humans, it might be the only way to measure the degree
of faith. Faith from faith proves devotion. Faith through fear
is faux love. Just me, doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Bestworking posted:
gbrk posted:

For those who are so sure there is no God, whether agnostics or atheist or whatever, I am curious as to what makes you so sure that God doesn't exist?  What are the factors that brings you to your determination that there is no God and that we are all there is?  

For those same persons who do not believe in God do you believe there is an existence after physical death?  By that I mean do you believe in ghost or spirt beings, life or beings outside of human fleshly bodies?

 

GB, how many times have the atheists on here gone over this and listed the reasons for their non-belief in a god, AND that there is NO existence after death.

Actually I don't know, and I don't remember one instance.  I can make assumptions but that would not be fair to you or the others but if you don't want to answer then that's alright as well.  I find it interesting though your absolute dogmatic response to no existence after death yet with no reason why you are absolutely sure.

I might add I've stated on here many time's myself, why I believe but if you are any other person ask me again, or ten times over again, I'm proud to repeat it for I'm sure of why my faith stands and I'm glad to have the opportunity to share it as many times as someone is interested enough to ask.

gbrk posted:
Bestworking posted:
gbrk posted:

For those who are so sure there is no God, whether agnostics or atheist or whatever, I am curious as to what makes you so sure that God doesn't exist?  What are the factors that brings you to your determination that there is no God and that we are all there is?  

For those same persons who do not believe in God do you believe there is an existence after physical death?  By that I mean do you believe in ghost or spirt beings, life or beings outside of human fleshly bodies?

 

GB, how many times have the atheists on here gone over this and listed the reasons for their non-belief in a god, AND that there is NO existence after death.

Actually I don't know, and I don't remember one instance.  I can make assumptions but that would not be fair to you or the others but if you don't want to answer then that's alright as well.  I find it interesting though your absolute dogmatic response to no existence after death yet with no reason why you are absolutely sure.

I might add I've stated on here many time's myself, why I believe but if you are any other person ask me again, or ten times over again, I'm proud to repeat it for I'm sure of why my faith stands and I'm glad to have the opportunity to share it as many times as someone is interested enough to ask.

You can't think of one time? Out of all the months and years we had the discussions with you and I going at it, all the threads, and posts, you don't remember one instance? I don't have to ask you again, because as stated, it's been discussed to death on here and I know what you think.  "Being proud" has nothing to do with anything. I'm neither proud or ashamed of what I believe, and for anyone that hasn't heard it and asks, I don't mind saying I don't believe. As for my "absolute dogmatic response to no existence after death", what else did you want? I could have said "maybe", but that wouldn't be what I thought and you did want the truth didn't you? Maybe you'd feel better if I said there are weird and strange things that happen, but I do know there is an explanation for them. Whether or not we'll ever know what went bump in the night is another thing. However, I don't think it's paranormal, i.e. a ghost, because once again, I don't believe in an existence after death. I aslo don't believe in angels, demons, satan, vampires, werewolves, the lockness monster, and would have added bigfoot until I saw moochelle obama.

Last edited by Bestworking
OldSalt posted:

Okay GB, let me ask you this:  Could an omnipotent god have stopped hurricane Katrina?  Then why didn't he?  Was hurricane Katrina part of his plan - his perfect plan?  Then this perfect loving god wanted people, including innocent infants, to suffer and die?  Or, this loving god just didn't care?  This loving god was indifferent to the suffering of people?  

Q} Could an omnipotent god have stopped hurricane Katrina?

A} Absolutely!  I fully believe God could have or could prevent any other event such as an earthquake, the Tsunami or any other event connected with nature. 

Q} Why didn't he?   

A} I don't know!  Going with this line of reasoning is looking to essentially do what I've said mankind does often with relation to God and that is mankind often attempts to humanize God or bring God into Human reasoning.  You mention about wanting innocent people to suffer, infants dying and the like and then judging whether God cares based upon a lack of intervention.  I'm not saying your reasoning is not out of line or not a relevant answer but you overlooked and missed the greatest example to cite.  The one event, in our not so distant past, that caused many to lose faith in God or even declare that God must be dead is the Holocaust itself where millions, of God's chosen people, the Jew's, were murdered by Germany and at the direction of Hitler.

We don't know what lies ahead of us after our physical death and who is to say that is not infinitely better and far more glorious?  We look at the death of a child, say compared to a 100 year old man, and think what a waste and it is if you think about it from a human perspective but from an eternal one, where time is of no factor, then they essentially die at exactly the same time for with respect to eternity 100 years is nothing.  We also do not know but believe that the spiritual life ahead is one that is infinitely better and greater so for all we know the deceased is going to a far more desirable place.  We just don't have those answers and we don't know.  What you seem to be asking is why does God, if there is a God, allow human suffering or allow one human to do horrible things to another.  Why doesn't God protect us all from all dangers and woes. 

For one I don't know so I can't speak for God.  I have faith that He is in control though and while Katrina was a horrible thing people moved into the area that was affected, God didn't move them there.  Weather is a part of Earth's way of maintaining itself and just like Volcanos, earthquakes, and other things like that people put themselves in the danger areas.  True God doesn't announce a horrendous event and say everyone leave but if one accepts Noah's story to be true that's essentially what God did to mankind during that time.  He decided to bring a flood account of the world's great sinfulness and condition but found Noah to be faithful and in and through him offered salvation to all or a way to escape the coming judgment.  The same example with Lot in Sodom, before God's Judgment fell Lot, the only one God found righteous, was allowed, by faith, to leave.  The same with Christ on a much grander scale providing ultimate salvation from God's coming future judgment, upon mankind's sins and sinfulness,  and as with the other examples it is for mankind to decide what to do with the warning and the offer for salvation from the coming promised judgment. 

God has offered salvation for His creation and mankind but also does not intervene in mankind's sins against himself/mankind.  There is much I cannot explain but that doesn't mean I do not believe or have faith just because I cannot understand God's ways or feel that God somehow has failed at being a good human based upon human reasoning.  I trust that God's reasoning is far above what we can imagine and thus mine is but to accept and have faith. 

Bestworking posted:
gbrk posted:
Bestworking posted:
gbrk posted:

For those who are so sure there is no God, whether agnostics or atheist or whatever, I am curious as to what makes you so sure that God doesn't exist?  What are the factors that brings you to your determination that there is no God and that we are all there is?  

For those same persons who do not believe in God do you believe there is an existence after physical death?  By that I mean do you believe in ghost or spirt beings, life or beings outside of human fleshly bodies?

 

GB, how many times have the atheists on here gone over this and listed the reasons for their non-belief in a god, AND that there is NO existence after death.

Actually I don't know, and I don't remember one instance.  I can make assumptions but that would not be fair to you or the others but if you don't want to answer then that's alright as well.  I find it interesting though your absolute dogmatic response to no existence after death yet with no reason why you are absolutely sure.

I might add I've stated on here many time's myself, why I believe but if you are any other person ask me again, or ten times over again, I'm proud to repeat it for I'm sure of why my faith stands and I'm glad to have the opportunity to share it as many times as someone is interested enough to ask.

You can't think of one time? Out of all the months and years we had the discussions with you and I going at it, all the threads, and posts, you don't remember one instance? I don't have to ask you again, because as stated, it's been discussed to death on here and I know what you think.  "Being proud" has nothing to do with anything. I'm neither proud or ashamed of what I believe, and for anyone that hasn't heard it and asks, I don't mind saying I don't believe. As for my "absolute dogmatic response to no existence after death", what else did you want? I could have said "maybe", but that wouldn't be what I thought and you did want the truth didn't you? Maybe you'd feel better if I said there are weird and strange things that happen, but I do know there is an explanation for them. Whether or not we'll ever know what went bump in the night is another thing. However, I don't think it's paranormal, i.e. a ghost, because once again, I don't believe in an existence after death. I aslo don't believe in angels, demons, satan, vampires, werewolves, the lockness monster, and would have added bigfoot until I saw moochelle obama.

No I can't remember what you or any of the others said in reply to similar discussions.  The challenge was to simple see if you or anyone else even had an answer, to either question.  My point was simply to say and imply that no one knows for sure unless they have something tangible to base their decision on. 

Also to say that the absence of something does not prove anything nor is it a basis to conclude that something doesn't exist. 

gbrk said

No I can't remember what you or any of the others said in reply to similar discussions.  The challenge was to simple see if you or anyone else even had an answer, to either question.  My point was simply to say and imply that no one knows for sure unless they have something tangible to base their decision on. 

Also to say that the absence of something does not prove anything nor is it a basis to conclude that something doesn't exist. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Could be some tangibles were overlooked while still looking
in all the wrong places, just a thought...........
giftedamateur posted:

Also to say that the absence of something does not prove anything nor is it a basis to conclude that something doesn't exist. 

 

GBRK, The same goes for saying something exists. You can't just say something exists without any proof whatsoever and get upset when people don't believe you.

Fist of all I by no means get upset when someone disagrees with me or takes a stand contrary to what I do.  I believe many people disagree on various things but are they respectful in doing so?  Respect usually begets respect and visa versa as some might say.

That said I would disagree, in part, with regards to the statement regarding something existing because with regards to the physical existence of something then that is very easy to prove for you see it or can touch it so there isn't the absence of matter but the presence.   Now with regards to the statement that something exist where there isn't any tangible physical evidence you can see or touch then I agree with your statement.  However that doesn't mean that sufficient evidence or proof doesn't exist for the person making the statement.  Other's might claim that the evidence or proof for that individual is just a delusion but for that person it's just as real as if they can touch it. 

An example is Love itself.  You claim you love someone, whether it be a spouse, mother, father, etc. but you have no ability to prove it, no ability to provide evidence that you can show someone.  Some may claim that you can prove love because of your actions toward another but then the same could be said of God for it all comes around to if you believe the person or not.  It is also said that there is no proof or evidence that God is real or tangible evidence for the believer that their faith is in something that is real and true.

Romans 8:16 (HCSB)
16  The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children,

Ephesians 4:30 (NCV)
30  And do not make the Holy Spirit sad. The Spirit is God’s proof that you belong to him. God gave you the Spirit to show that God will make you free when the final day comes.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NCV)
22  He put his mark on us to show that we are his, and he put his Spirit in our hearts to be a guarantee for all he has promised.

 While for the Christian there is no way to prove anything.  We can make statements or testify of what we experience of God's changing power in our lives but as I indicated above to others it's just a delusion.   The above verses though refer to the proof every Christian has of God's existence or of their salvation.  It is God's Holy Spirit dwelling within our own bodies along with our inner spirit/soul.  There is no physical way to prove such but just as when we say we love someone it is alive and real unto us/the person that has it. 

So while you are correct in part, saying that there is no way to confirm it the only real confirmation comes for the person themselves and that is God's Gift unto those who accept Him and believe in Him.  The ONLY way a Christian can know God is by God's Holy Spirit that is given unto them at their conversion/salvation. 

For the person that is not a Christian, does not believe in God or that may be looking the only proof or experience that they will have with God (God's Holy Spirit) is that time of conviction where God, by His Holy Spirit, reveals unto that person their Spiritual need to reconcile with Him, recognize their inadequacy and inability to satisfy God and their need for Salvation.  Only at that moment in time can those who are not in God's family, not Christians, or not God's chosen,  have any proof or evidence to cause them to question their beliefs. 

For some who look for God to directly talk to them, address them, no proof is sufficient for them to cause them to rethink their own belief so it is only when God's Holy Spirit ministers unto them through conviction of their mind/heart will they have that meeting with God.  For others creation itself, the order of things and nature itself creates the question of who keeps things in order or who created such.  Belief is a very personal thing for each and every person.  It is not up to me or anyone else to judge another's personal beliefs and certainly I don't take offense if someone doesn't believe.  I can only relate what it is to me and what I have experienced and let it rest with that.  I believe God is sufficient enough and will reach out to those who seek Him, that I believe, but for each person it is up to their own self whom or what they accept or believe in and what justifies their reason for what they believe for it's different in every person.

 

gbrk posted:
giftedamateur posted:

Also to say that the absence of something does not prove anything nor is it a basis to conclude that something doesn't exist. 

 

GBRK, The same goes for saying something exists. You can't just say something exists without any proof whatsoever and get upset when people don't believe you.

Fist of all I by no means get upset when someone disagrees with me or takes a stand contrary to what I do.  I believe many people disagree on various things but are they respectful in doing so?  Respect usually begets respect and visa versa as some might say.

That said I would disagree, in part, with regards to the statement regarding something existing because with regards to the physical existence of something then that is very easy to prove for you see it or can touch it so there isn't the absence of matter but the presence.   Now with regards to the statement that something exist where there isn't any tangible physical evidence you can see or touch then I agree with your statement.  However that doesn't mean that sufficient evidence or proof doesn't exist for the person making the statement.  Other's might claim that the evidence or proof for that individual is just a delusion but for that person it's just as real as if they can touch it. 

An example is Love itself.  You claim you love someone, whether it be a spouse, mother, father, etc. but you have no ability to prove it, no ability to provide evidence that you can show someone.  Some may claim that you can prove love because of your actions toward another but then the same could be said of God for it all comes around to if you believe the person or not.  It is also said that there is no proof or evidence that God is real or tangible evidence for the believer that their faith is in something that is real and true.

Romans 8:16 (HCSB)
16  The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God’s children,

Ephesians 4:30 (NCV)
30  And do not make the Holy Spirit sad. The Spirit is God’s proof that you belong to him. God gave you the Spirit to show that God will make you free when the final day comes.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NCV)
22  He put his mark on us to show that we are his, and he put his Spirit in our hearts to be a guarantee for all he has promised.

 While for the Christian there is no way to prove anything.  We can make statements or testify of what we experience of God's changing power in our lives but as I indicated above to others it's just a delusion.   The above verses though refer to the proof every Christian has of God's existence or of their salvation.  It is God's Holy Spirit dwelling within our own bodies along with our inner spirit/soul.  There is no physical way to prove such but just as when we say we love someone it is alive and real unto us/the person that has it. 

So while you are correct in part, saying that there is no way to confirm it the only real confirmation comes for the person themselves and that is God's Gift unto those who accept Him and believe in Him.  The ONLY way a Christian can know God is by God's Holy Spirit that is given unto them at their conversion/salvation. 

For the person that is not a Christian, does not believe in God or that may be looking the only proof or experience that they will have with God (God's Holy Spirit) is that time of conviction where God, by His Holy Spirit, reveals unto that person their Spiritual need to reconcile with Him, recognize their inadequacy and inability to satisfy God and their need for Salvation.  Only at that moment in time can those who are not in God's family, not Christians, or not God's chosen,  have any proof or evidence to cause them to question their beliefs. 

For some who look for God to directly talk to them, address them, no proof is sufficient for them to cause them to rethink their own belief so it is only when God's Holy Spirit ministers unto them through conviction of their mind/heart will they have that meeting with God.  For others creation itself, the order of things and nature itself creates the question of who keeps things in order or who created such.  Belief is a very personal thing for each and every person.  It is not up to me or anyone else to judge another's personal beliefs and certainly I don't take offense if someone doesn't believe.  I can only relate what it is to me and what I have experienced and let it rest with that.  I believe God is sufficient enough and will reach out to those who seek Him, that I believe, but for each person it is up to their own self whom or what they accept or believe in and what justifies their reason for what they believe for it's different in every person.

 

I disagree with the statement that you can't see love. I see people all the time and see the love they have for each other. Yes, you can see love. My parents are one example. 

budsfarm posted:
giftedamateur posted:

GBRK, sorry to say, there is no evidence of a God's love anywhere in the world.

Gifted,

You've not met my grandchildren. 

 

I'd think they would a sign of you son's or daughter's love with someone else. Not sure what a God would have to do with them. A little boy just got beheaded on a waterslide in front of his parents, my understanding, a Christian family, so again, no sign of a loving God that I've seen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...0-pound-minimum.html 

Last edited by giftedamateur

 

You're right when you say they would [be] a sign of you son's or daughter's love with someone else.   I consider that a plus.  Not all children are so blessed.  I hope your children / grands fall in a similar category whatever you may call it.

Also, I believe you when you say you are  Not sure what a God would have to do with them.  That's because you're not sure [or perhaps certain] there isn't "a" God. which means I am able to view my grandchildren with the advantage of an additional perspective.  And other children as well.

The accidental tragedy you linked is part of life.  It could happen to me or you with equal odds.  Someone far more knowledgeable than I can explain the difference between mortal and eternal life, which is guaranteed and why.

I'm done.

 

budsfarm posted:

 

You're right when you say they would [be] a sign of you son's or daughter's love with someone else.   I consider that a plus.  Not all children are so blessed.  I hope your children / grands fall in a similar category whatever you may call it.

Also, I believe you when you say you are  Not sure what a God would have to do with them.  That's because you're not sure [or perhaps certain] there isn't "a" God. which means I am able to view my grandchildren with the advantage of an additional perspective.  And other children as well.

The accidental tragedy you linked is part of life.  It could happen to me or you with equal odds.  Someone far more knowledgeable than I can explain the difference between mortal and eternal life, which is guaranteed and why.

I'm done.

 

It is a part of life, and as such a part, I will never be believe or be convienced that there is any such thing as a "loving, or any other kind, of God. And of that I have no doubts.

Last edited by giftedamateur

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