What Does The Bible Say About It?

quote:

Originally posted by TheNightCrow:
Why do fundmentalists grab on to the things in the Bible with which they agree and ignore the things with which they don't?

Neal, ich versthehe Aufklarung sehr gut! Ich liebe Kant und auch Jung.

but you weren't too busy with your "job" to insult me...never mind, I understand

I didn't insult you. I simply don't agree with you. Opinions are like butt cracks. Everyone has one.

quote:

Originally posted by TheNightCrow:
I didn't insult you. I simply don't agree with you. Opinions are like butt cracks. Everyone has one.

Yeah, and some are a little more cracked than others!!

don't try to insult my intelligence...'cause I can keep up with all of you!

Moronette, your command of la lingua española is about as sublime as a framed painting of a bridge in Colbert County I saw online recently -- someone who drew the pirate (or was that the turtle) on the matchbox cover had the audacity of asking $450 for it! And to think they still have to get a priest to cast out the demons from the painting and burn the thing to get to an overpriced frame! I believe that similar works are going on at the local Holiday Inn every month or so, minus the frame. I am given to understand that none are over $50 and are good for motel rooms or to drive overstaying house guests back from whence they came.

You know, there are more tenses, voices and moods in Spanish than present, present progressive, active and interrogative. I think that a few of those "frases" you wrote call for subjective, conditional and I didn't see the none of them there funny little upside down question marks at all! Bunky Jones would be very, very angry at you for ignoring his "que" as the trailer hitch!

But this has nothing to do with the local loonie snake oil salesmen with Bibles gone super angry over the gays. You know, this is quite the odd obsession that the handlers/thumpers have, quite off-kilter, even old Siggy Freud gave up on that one.

quote:

Originally posted by TheNightCrow:
Why do fundmentalists grab on to the things in the Bible with which they agree and ignore the things with which they don't?

Hi Crow,

Actually, I am a Conservative Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian -- and praise God for this blessing.

And, there is not one thing in the Bible that I ignore or with which I disagree. God said it; I believe it. That is good enough for me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

It's not that complicated.

you are right monet. i think one of the problems is that some try to make it so difficult, they just give up.
if it were the only reason to serve Him, letting Him take over your life and guide you thru the rough times would be worth it.
how much more so, that He loves us and we love Him.

I discovered something very interesting today. I went to the UA Gorgas Library databases and signed in and found that there are no scholarly articles treating the key word "rapture" in the religious databases prior to 1955 -- at least not in English, I did not try Edenic or Enochian, however, as they were not choices.

Is that weird or what? Does one find that no one much was treating the topic in a serious manner prior to that time, or were the journals merely not accepting articles on the subject?

I am going to do an exhaustive OCLC World Cat search and see what the oldest works I can find on tribulation and rapture in English currently in libraries in the world.

I'll let you know what the results are even do a short bibliography and locations for you all.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Logical,

You tell us, "Gays march for the same reasons that blacks and other minorities have marched: for civil rights."

That is not true. And, I have found that most blacks are offended that gays have tried to piggy-back onto their fight for civil rights.

Yes, it is true. You may not like it, but it is true. These are *civil* rights. Any religious view does *not* apply. Some blacks are offended by gays claiming civil rights, but their taking offense doesn't change the fact that it is about civil rights.

quote:

I am not accusing all gays of this; but, the gay activists will try to ride the coat tails of anyone, or steal the thunder from any other group -- just to push their agenda. No one is safe from their activism -- not even kindergarten children.

You are truly off your nut. Do you see boogey men everywhere as well, or all of them just gay?

quote:

The blacks had a valid and valiant battle to win their civil rights -- and I do not blame them for not wanting gay rights equated with their struggle.

Not all blacks feel that way and many blacks still stuggle for their civil rights. I've witnessed definite racial discrimination in my career.

quote:

At no place in the Bible will you find God declaring "blackness" to be abominable. However, you will find God declaring homosexuality and lesbianism to be abominable, detestable, unnatural, sinful, and that this lifestyle will keep a person from seeing the kingdom of God.

You won't like this, but what the Bible says is irrelevant to anyone's civil rights. Your religious views are personal.

quote:

There is no way you can legitimately equate "gay pride" with "black pride."

Of course I can and I do. Black pride and gay pride are the same in that they both seek to declare that an individual has pride in who they are despite a majority who seeks to tell them that they are less worthy as human beings. A gay person can act straight, but they will still be gay. It's just easier to hide being gay than being black.

quote:

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Don't believe in your make believe religion, it's all a hoax.....

You seem like a pleasant person

quote:

Originally posted by Monette:

quote:

It is a bit disingenuous to speak of a Straight Pride march. As the dominant sexuality it pervades everything in society. Look at any form of advertisement for examples. While I certainly agree that some Gay Pride marchers can go way over the top, is really that different than similar Straight "marchers" in, say, Mardi Gras? Bad public behavior has nothing to do sexuality

........................
Logical, I think you need to go back to my previous post and reread. I said I do not approve of anyone (Gay or straight) publicly doing lewd things.
But, yes I am.....STRAIGHT & PROUD...what are you gonna do about it?

I don't intend to do anything about it. I'm glad that you are. I would also be equally glad if you were gay and proud.

You didn't answer my question though. Do you judge gay and straight behavior with the same criteria?

Here are the earliest known existing works in English on rapture and tirbulation. None are prior to the mid-19th century, and the second oldest is by Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren who popularized the notions.
Here is the list, note that many of these are single copies or only a handful still are in libraries, so the odds are, they will not circulate, so I left out the locations, but they can be found at any public library by using OCLC WorldCat Search, not the online one that starts with www.! That is not a "real" search, but only a partial!

Database: WorldCat


Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 1 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Title: The rapture of the church, or, Are any events to be expected before the rapture of the church?
Author(s): Parnell, John Vesey, Sir, 1805-1883.
Publication: London : William Yapp,
Edition: 3rd ed.
Year: 1857
Description: 15 p. ; 18 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Second Advent.
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Note(s): Caption title./ Signed: C.; Attributed to John Vesey Parnell./ "Hunt and Elliott, Printers, Titchborne Street, Edgware Road."-- Colophon.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT887
Other Titles: Are any events to be expected before the rapture of the church?
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19940309
Update: 20040305
Accession No: OCLC: 29933569
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 4 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Govett, Robert,max: 3
Title: The saints' rapture to the presence of the Lord Jesus :
with appendix, in refutation of Dr. Cumming's tract, entitled "The pope the man of sin" /
Author(s): Govett, Robert, b. 1813.
Publication: London : James Nisbet,
Year: 1852
Description: x, 357 p. : ill. ; 18 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Antichrist.
Named Person: Cumming, John, 1807-1881. Pope the man of sin.
Title Subject: Bible. N.T. Thessalonians, 2nd, II -- Criticism, interpretation, etc.
Note(s): Includes bibliographical references.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT827; Dewey: 236.9
Responsibility: by R. Govett.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19941005
Update: 20080614
Accession No: OCLC: 31228147
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 11 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Trotter, William,max: 12
Title: Essays on prophetic interpretation /
Author(s): Trotter, William, 1818-1865.
Publication: Glasgow : R.L. Allan ; London : Geo. Morrish,
Year: 1800-1899?
Description: 141 p. ; 17 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Millennium (Eschatology)
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Messiah -- Prophecies.
Title Subject: Bible -- Hermeneutics.
Bible. N.T. -- Relation to the Old Testament.
Note(s): Includes bibliographical references.
Class Descriptors: LC: BT890
Responsibility: by William Trotter.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19880215
Update: 20080423
Accession No: OCLC: 17474067
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 3 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Darby, J. N.max: 130
Title: The rapture of the saints, and the character of the Jewish remnant :
shewing the position which the scriptures give to the remnant in Israel in the latter day, in prophecy, in the psalms, and in the New Testament : and the rapture of the saints gathered by the Holy
Ghost sent down from heaven before the tribulation of the last days /
Author(s): Darby, J. N. 1800-1882. (John Nelson),
Publication: London : George Morrish,
Year: 1800-1899?
Description: 58 p. ; 17 cm.
Language: English
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Remnant (Theology)
Class Descriptors: LC: BT887
Responsibility: by J.N. Darby.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19940311
Update: 20080610
Accession No: OCLC: 29948938
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Availability: Check the catalogs in your library. Libraries worldwide that own item: 1 Connect to the catalog at your library
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Works2,725
Title: The Lord cometh :
events in heaven and on earth : the rapture, the revelation, the Kingdom, and the eternal glory /
Uniform Title: Works. 1800
Author(s): McCormick, J. H.
Publication: [Lisburn, Northern Ireland : s.n.,
Year: 1800s
Description: 1 v. (various pagings) ; 17 cm.
Language: English
Contents: When the Lord Himself comes -- The resurrection "from" the dead and the redemption of the body -- The Father's house and events therein -- Christian service rewarded at the
Judgment seat of Christ -- The marriage supper of the Lamb -- Left behind when Jesus comes -- The great tribulation -- The Saviour's absence in heaven -- From monarchy to democracy -- The seventy
weeks -- He is coming as--? -- The coming superman -- Events in the east -- Events in Europe -- Witness for God in dark days -- The coming destruction of His foes -- When the King returns -- The
little season -- The Kingdom glories -- The great white throne.
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Eschatology.
Second Advent.
Rapture (Christian eschatology)
Class Descriptors: LC: BT821
Other Titles: When the Lord comes
Responsibility: by J.H. McCormick.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19980924
Update: 20030110
Accession No: OCLC: 39926665
Provider: OCLC
Database: WorldCat
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Neal Hughes:
Moronette, your command of la lingua española is about as sublime as a framed painting of a bridge in Colbert County I saw online recently -- someone who drew the pirate (or was that the turtle) on the matchbox cover had the audacity of asking $450 for it! And to think they still have to get a priest to cast out the demons from the painting and burn the thing to get to an overpriced frame! I believe that similar works are going on at the local Holiday Inn every month or so, minus the frame. I am given to understand that none are over $50 and are good for motel rooms or to drive overstaying house guests back from whence they came.

You know, there are more tenses, voices and moods in Spanish than present, present progressive, active and interrogative. I think that a few of those "frases" you wrote call for subjective, conditional and I didn't see the none of them there funny little upside down question marks at all! Bunky Jones would be very, very angry at you for ignoring his "que" as the trailer hitch!

But this has nothing to do with the local loonie snake oil salesmen with Bibles gone super angry over the gays. You know, this is quite the odd obsession that the handlers/thumpers have, quite off-kilter, even old Siggy Freud gave up on that one.

.........................
Pobrecito, FealHuge, otro vez me haces reir!! LOL.. First, before you begin to criticize my spanish, you should have a little command of the "lengua" yourself. I think you are trying to say "the spanish language" that would be "LA LENGUA ESPAÑOL", not lingua with an "i". Española is a lady from Spain..not a language..as in los españoles (spanish people) ¿Por que no lo entiendes?
I am sorry to report to you that the painting to which you referred has been sold. Haven't had time to update the site. It actually sold for $350 at Arts Alive
(without the frame) The purchaser preferred a less ornate frame.

You remind me of that TV commercial: "I am not an artist myself, but I did stay at
a Holliday Inn Express last night!!" LOL

I am sure your own home is lovely with the assembly-line art you purchased at a Holliday Inn auction. They are so budget-friendly, in keeping with your limited income.

quote:

Originally posted by Neal Hughes:
I discovered something very interesting today. I went to the UA Gorgas Library databases and signed in and found that there are no scholarly articles treating the key word "rapture" in the religious databases prior to 1955 -- at least not in English, I did not try Edenic or Enochian, however, as they were not choices.
Is that weird or what? Does one find that no one much was treating the topic in a serious manner prior to that time, or were the journals merely not accepting articles on the subject?

I am going to do an exhaustive OCLC World Cat search and see what the oldest works I can find on tribulation and rapture in English currently in libraries in the world.

I'll let you know what the results are even do a short bibliography and locations for you all.

Neal, ¿did that library happen to have a copy of the Bible?

Great likeness of ya

Why that bridge was yourn Monette? My word, I was tricked by someone! Do pardon my typo for typing the letter i instead of e, it is a friquint mestaki E maki. Española is indeed the feminine of the adjective español. This is precisely why I chose to use the feminine adjective along with the feminine direct object la to agree with the feminine word lengua for tongue. Had I not chosen to make it longer, I would have just said español, but I chose to say, en español, mas o menos, "the Spanish tongue," and know of no other way of making the adjective agree with the noun save by taking the word's gender into account.

That painting was "charming as far as derivation is able to be," but not yet to Socialist Realism and its ability to pay tribute to Tractor Collective 193-B's plowing quota under budget, I fear. Now that is merely my opinion. But give me some good Dogs Playing Pool or Poker any day of the week!

My art consists of a Shannon Wells original b&w portrait of me that she hand tinted. It is actually quite valuable and has been loaned to her shows in the past, pictures of children and my grandmother and an icon.

The last portion of your rather cryptic missive was odd to say the least. Did I not state that I used databases through Gorgas Library in Tuscaloosa, and was not actually at a library, however, Gorgas as well as Hoole have many Bibles in the stacks and storage, as do nearly every library in the country.

It seems that the Black Crow has discovered the pirate on the matchbook cover! Whatever happened to him, I wonder? Was he raptured? Probably a homosexual drew it and was burnt alive in a frenzy of righteous holy rolly wrath.

I'm afraid you lost me on the pirate on a match cover???!!!! But then again, you usually manage to lose me about half way through each post.

oh, and BTW, I am not trying to conceal my identity like most of "las brujitas" on here.
Have nothing to hide. And tell her thanks for sending folks to my website..(or is that considered 'stalking') I need the advertisement. Maybe you could start a new thread about my 'bad art'. Some others on this forum like to have their friends post pseudo-praise for their establishments. Beware of the chefs..some eat roaches...oops, was that really black olives on that meal I just ate???!!!

quote:

Had I not chosen to make it longer, I would have just said español

. . . . . . . . . . .
NutHughes, Why would you "chose" to spell something incorrectly..¿¿¿to make it longer???
just because something is feminine doesn't necessary mean the adjective always ends in an "a"...español is español..pure and simple.
for example: you don't say "la agua", you say "el agua"...so, I see your knowledge of the language is very limited. I sure you manage to 'get by' when you need ro order a taco or una taza de frijoles. But other than that, you know a few 'frases' of a few languages with which you like to color your otherwise broken English. I would prefer that you master the English language first and type it when you are sober...so most of the 'common folk' will understand.

You stupid thumper, agua is a masculine word, not feminine! Some words are indeed, unchanging in adjective form, but Spanish ain't one of 'em. Lengua is a feminine word. It takes a feminine adjective.

I don't drink, well, not very much and not at 10 in the morning. Nor do I handle snakes, but you, on the other hand. . .

Las españolas means the Spanish women, just as los aguas means the waters. What are you saying, are you typing in tongues? I guess it is better than painting by numbers, though!

my point was..(I know agua is masculine..duh) just because a word ends in "a" doesn't mean it is always feminine or needs a feminine adjective...but enough of that...it bores me **yawns**

Then, I was wrong...you don't drink...so there is no excuss for your bad English...!
Have a wonderful day!...I do have a life outside of this forum!

Does this bore you?

http://www.rae.es/rae.html

Diccionario de la lengua española

This is the homepage of la Real Acadamia Española with its search bar for the official Royal Spanish Academy's dictionary, which is titled no less than
Diccionario de la lingua española. Not "D. de la lingua español," for, as I said, lengua is a feminine word, thus taking the feminine of "Spanish."

You been served! Eso es.

not painting in numbers....but I got your number, Bud! and you're painted into a corner! LOL

ciao
that's italiano...no españolaaaaaaa!!! LOL

quote:

You stupid thumper

now neal, that is sooo not nice!

What no apology Moronette? Wow, you are brave enough to copy Monet and not that well, in my opinion, but when called on a matter of fact and not opinion, you don't have a response worthy of a world class Spanish scholar, artiste and religious activist?

Quelle bummer, that was Holly Golightly.

I still don't like your art and lengua still takes española as it adjective to mean "Spanish language," and I think your holy rolly friends are about as far out in left field as one can get and not have a tin foil hat or a spaceship waiting, and I will defend "the gays" until my last breath.

Dear Hip, the thing to which I referred had the gall to suggest I was drunk at 10 a.m. She is stupid when she has proof in front of her that a Spanish phrase over which she wants to quibble and still be shown incorrect by the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language!

She is a thumper. Ergo, she is a stupid thumper. Sorry for offending any stupid out there, maybe I should have said, "Obsessed with crap until the cows come home" and not "stupid," as I enjoy the company of a great many stupid people and thumpers upon occasion.

neal, if only you could channel all that jibberish into something constructive. what a nice guy you'd be!

Hi to our Forum Friends,

You may rest easy; Neal does enjoy being on the Forum with all of us.

He tells HipppieGirl, "She is a thumper. Ergo, she is a stupid thumper. Sorry for offending any stupid out there, maybe I should have said, "Obsessed with crap until the cows come home" and not "stupid," as I enjoy the company of a great many stupid people and thumpers upon occasion."

So, when everyone thought that Neal had a heart full of hatred only for Christian believers -- he has given us a clarification. He enjoys the company of all we stupid people and thumpers.

But, we should rejoice -- for we have the benefit of his mighty literary intelligence to comfort us when we are feeling stupid. Thank you, Neal, for blessing we stupid people and thumpers with you glorious presence here on our lowly Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, I don't think all are stupid, just a lot of the remarks I read are. They are shallow, not even funny when they try, and just recycled talking points. Nor do I think that Monette is a bad artist, but she dismissed Kant as if it were a bad fish, one of the most profound thinkers of Modern Times, and she just posts some smarmy crap in reply.
The fact that people just won't let the gays go is frankly odd and I must say, in my eyes, obsessive and compulsive. Why single out one thing you believe is sin when there is so much sin upon which a majority of the world can agree?
People aren't stupid, as a rule, but they can sure say some pretty darned stupid things, even with the Bible and preachers backing them up. Why a person can interpret the Holy Bible to any obscure and strange ends they desire, as the many wars in God's name proves, witch burning, executions for heresy, etc.
I love people who can dish out all day and then do not like it one bit when they a dose of their own medicine!
Do you really think I care if you hoop and holler all day and night at church? Of course not, now it would scare me, but if you enjoy it, it is harmless for the most part, I am sure.
What is not harmless is the setting up of select small groups of people who have the entire truth as they know it and only they and not satisfied with that, continue to harp on and on and on trying to tell everyone else how terrible they are, filled with error and wickedness.
However, I do think obsessing over the gays and the End Times is silly, as both are pointless, as no words can change either.
I fear that these small sects who are so vocal give the impression that all or a majority of Christians represent their ways. I fear even more a coup d'etat led by sectarians overturning the classic liberties of the Enlightenment under the guise of purification of our republic.
Most people are not convinced that there is a "gay agenda" and that the Republican Party is the only way to lead us out of darkness, nor are they overly concerned with rapture when there are hungry people all about and wars on the horizon. I am not, and I daresay that any poll would agree that people are more concerned with the economy, war, hunger, rising costs of living and declining spending power than they are two adults doing whatever or the difference between Bema Seat and Great White Throne judgments, pre and post-mill. raptures, etc.!
If one is happy with their church, bully. I still declare, however, that I don't mind the far end of the Protestant spectrum at all -- so long as they act like Episcopalians or Catholics or Methodists in public!
That is called humor. Try it sometimes. It lightens the load quite a bit . . .

Philosopher's Soccer Match

Enjoy, Neal!

quote:

and I think your holy rolly friends are about as far out in left field as one can get and not have a tin foil hat or a spaceship waiting, and I will defend "the gays" until my last breath.

Neal, I hope you were not talking about me (spaceship waiting). I have friends who are "the gays" and I am definitely not a "holy rolly". Infact, I have counseled "the gays" to accept who they are.
Your friends made fun of the "spaceage" so I changed my image to be compatible. You have a lot of anger that only you can deal with. Be true to yourself, not what others are telling you to do and say. We are all on this earth to deal with our stuff.

Believe whatever you like about your spaceships, it concerns me not a whit so long as you do not decide to use me or my dogs as Soylent Green.

Hoop and holler until the cows come home, just don't think that is the only way to worship that pleases man or God.

You don't recognize satire when you read it, do you?

I am no more serious about religious rants than Swift was about raising Irish babies for food.

Most of my earnest pleas are just turning the tables on people who irk me with their certitude in all things.

Tongue in cheek is an art form that most can realize upon a few sentences. I am sorry if you think I am serious about all this rigamarole. I am serious about a few things: my friends and family, my profession, higher education in general, civil rights, the Episcopal Church, the Democratic Party, the Enlightenment, and animal cruelty. I don't joke about any of those at all.

Hi Logical,

You tell me, "You answered nothing. I asked *you* about people with CAIS and you again ignored it. My questions to Monette were about actions which could demonstrate one's sexual orientation and whether she truly believed that such things should be kept in the closet by *everyone*. You didn't address that either.

CAIS and the other conditions like it fly in the face of your neat, tidy one man, one woman. God's creation is not binary. Man is not created only male or female, there is an entire area of gray between your black and white. These are real people, with real lives, and you act as if they don't exist all. God knows his creation. He loves all of them and I do not believe he thinks them immoral. I believe the only sin here is committed by you."

First, let me say that I apologize for not responding to your question about CAIS. In the past 1 1/2 years there have been so many "gotcha" type issues thrown into the discussions just to confuse folks, that I just assumed this was what you were doing.

For our Friends who do not know about CAIS, below is a web site which will explain. I give you an excerpt which should be sufficient for our discussion here:

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)
http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large ****oris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia.

CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) is a genetic abnormality; just as Downs Syndrome and many others. Does this mean that God created males, females, and others? No. God created them male and female (Genesis 1:27). When God created them male and female; He also created a perfect world for them to inhabit.

So, what went wrong? In creating male and female; God gave them free will; that they might choose to love Him on their own. God's love is perfect. Perfect love requires both a giver and a receiver. God's love for us is perfect; but, we must return that love to make it complete. Without free will, we could not return His perfect love. Without free will, we would be only robots or slave, forced to give love. Think about it. When you met your husband or your wife and fell in love, you offered your love to him/her. If your mate had been forced to love you in return; would that really be love -- or would it be rape or slavery?

God created male and female, gave them free will and asked for their love in return. In that free will, Adam and Eve also had the possibility of disobeying God; which is exactly what happened. Adam was disobedient to God -- and because of that disobedience many abnormalities came into being. The most obvious abnormality to be introduced through Adam's disobedience is death: both physical and spiritual. Also, man's environment was changed; he was expelled from the perfect Garden of Eden into the world which now had many hardships: hunger, hard work just to survive, illnesses, abnormalities, etc.

Down through the generations, the fallen body inherited from Adam has become vulnerable to many diseases, defects, and abnormalities. Is this of God's choosing or is this God's fault? No. Man, Adam and Eve, disobeyed God and brought this upon all mankind.

Is God just being nasty to impose such a punishment upon all mankind because of Adam's disobedience? Those of us who have children; when we give our children guidelines and rules by which they must live -- and they disobey and do something which is contrary to the rules of life we have established; what do we do? We punish them. Do we punish them because we enjoy it? No, we punish them to make them better people. This is what God has done for us. Adam was disobedient. God punished Adam, and his sin was imputed, or attributed, to us. However, then God gave us a way out of that punishment -- Jesus Christ.

God's solution for us -- is sort of like the parent who will punish little Johnny for doing wrong, by making him sit in the corner. Then, He comes over and gives little Johnny a soft cushion to sit on. That is our God; He punishes our wrong -- but, then gives us a marvelous cushion, Jesus Christ, to ease our pain.

I have known people who had CAIS; but, in those days medical science and psychiatry had not come up with the fancy names for it. When I was a teenager, we had a neighbor, a beautiful lady, whom I was told had this affliction. Her husband left her and she committed suicide. It was a tragedy. Was this God's fault? No. Yet, this lady suffered. Maybe, if she had known God, she would have had the strength to get through this bad time in her life. Can there ever be a better reason to evangelize, to share the Word of God with those who do not know Him?

Logical, CAIS, like all birth abnormalities is so sad; but, just as the child born with Downs Syndrome is not another type of person; neither is the person born with AIS or CAIS. God created us male and female -- then, life happened. A person born with Downs Syndrome is not another gender; neither is a person born with CAIS. Their lives are much more difficult. They, of all people, need the love, peace, and comfort found only in Jesus Christ. But, they are not a third gender.

You tell me, "These are real people, with real lives, and you act as if they don't exist all. God knows his creation. He loves all of them and I do not believe he thinks them immoral."

You are so right. These are real people, with real lives, and with real pain and suffering. But, they can find peace and comfort with God. Yes, He does love them just as much, maybe even more, than He loves Bill Gray. Yet, we know that God's love is perfect and that there is enough of it to cover every single person ever born.

Does God think that people with CAIS or people with Downs Syndrome are immoral. Absolutely not. Immorality has nothing to do with how you are born, or with what affliction you may have inherited at birth. Morality or immorality is what you choose to do with your life after you reach the age of accountability.

And, you say, "I believe the only sin here is committed by you."

Yes, I have and still do commit sins. But, praise the Lord, I am a forgiven sinner. However, there is one sin which I pray that I will never commit -- that is the sin of seeing someone dwelling in depression such as my neighbor who committed suicide -- and not telling that person about Jesus Christ and the love He has for him or her; a love that just might have prevented her final act of giving up on life.

Finally, you tell me, "My questions to Monette were about actions which could demonstrate one's sexual orientation and whether she truly believed that such things should be kept in the closet by *everyone*. You didn't address that either."

Well, I did. But, maybe you missed it. I do not believe that anyone, heterosexual or homosexual, should be showing too much affection in public. Get a room.

Now, I am not saying that a couple, male and female, should not be affectionate in public. By all means, show your love and caring to the world -- hold hands, hug, give her/him an affectionate kiss, etc.

On the other hand, heavy petting, open mouth kissing, groping, etc., are better left to the privacy of your home. None of us appreciate seeing this kind of lewd exhibitionism in public -- and it is out of place.

Logical, I pray that I have answered your questions sufficiently; and once more, I apologize for not responding before.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill, sin is not a hereditary condition, but genetics are and sometimes a gene or genes just don't work the way they should. I would stop at blaming sin in the world for the cause of a genetic abnormality!

This is too much! Too much! Time for some bud nipping!

Prove this assertion, if you please, if you can.

Please do not use a preacher's web site, your faith, or any word games, just prove that sin is the cause of illness.

My dog thinks that food magically appears from a tall white box whenever she barks beside it, she utterly believes it. I know it isn't true, I fill the thing up myself while she is outside barking like an idiot when I get home from the grocery store.

You know what I think causes sin? It's coming of age and having free will. Every reaction of something is one of three choices: react positively, not reacting, or reacting negatively. That is it. One out of 3 in getting the right answer, that means a 2/3 chance of "sin," of either commission or omission, now doesn't it?

Moronette? Wow, you are brave enough to copy Monet
. . . . . . . . . . . .

NH, that's 'artista'...(in spanish)
I don't copy Monet, just admire his work...my own style is what I like to call impressionistic-realism. My own concoction of techniques that seem to work for me.

"Artista," a very interesting word, as it appears on the surface to be a feminine noun, yet is used for either gender, unlike "poeta" which is actually masculine, the feminine being poetesa for "poet".

This little historical oddity in la lingua española, luckily is not confusing for standard words, such as "lingua," where the terminal "a" is, indeed, indicative of a feminine noun, requiring an invariable or feminine adjective for its modification, such as "española," vice español -- or so says the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language.

I actually find your art quite technically good, but wanted to get your goat for dismissing Kant with your smugness, figuring that what was good for the goose, and all of that.

Monettte wheres the link to see your work ? ty