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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In a recent discussion I began on the TimesDaily Religion Forum, in my Facebook Notes, and in my Friends Ministry eNewsletter titled "We Can Have Civil And Constructive Discussions Between Roman Catholics And Protestants" my long time good Friend and Roman Catholic jousting partner (no offense intended, nor meant), Andrea, has raised several good questions.

First, she raises the question of what is included in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Andrea:  "Hi Bill, Ephesians 1:13 is interesting.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention.  Note the words 'Gospel of your salvation.'   Does the Gospel include *all* of Jesus' words?  How is it possible that His words, His teaching, on baptism are not included in the 'Gospel of Salvation'?"

First, let's take another look at Ephesians 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Basically, I see your question to be, "What is the Gospel of Salvation?  Is it the same as saying the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"   And, the answer to that question is, "Yes.  The Gospel of Salvation and the Gospel of Jesus Christ are the same."  The word "gospel" means "good news" -- so we are referring to the Good News of Jesus Christ. 

What is the Good News of Jesus Christ?  It is that He came to earth as the Incarnate God to pay our sin debt "in full" -- to die in our place and to finish His work of redemption (John 19:30) promised to all who will, by grace through faith in His finished work (Ephesians 2:8-9), believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior (John 1:12).

How do we answer, with authority, a question regarding the fullness of the Gospel of our Salvation?  Well, we go to the highest authority available to us, the Bible.  Can we find the Gospel of our Salvation defined in the Bible?  Yes.  Paul teaches it:

 

1 Corinthians 15:1-8,  "Now I make known to you, brethren, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, (2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.  (3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, (4) and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (5) and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.  (6) After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; (7) then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; (8) and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also."

 

That, according to Scripture is the Gospel.  Then, Scripture adds clarification to the Gospel so there can be no misunderstanding:

He ascended back into heaven:

 

Acts 1:9, "And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight."

 

He is our only Mediator between God and man:

 

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

And, His death has "paid in full" the Adamic Sin Debt inherited by all, referred to as Original Sin in the Roman Catholic church.  Not all people are forgiven; but all who, by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross, will believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior -- are forgiven and have eternal life in Christ:

 

Hebrews 9:15, "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant (Adam), those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

 

Andrea asked, "How is it possible that His words, His teaching, on baptism are not included in the 'Gospel of Salvation'?""

Did Jesus really teach salvation through baptism?  No. 

 

John 4:1-3, "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), He left Judea and went away again into Galilee."

 

Ask yourself this question:  If baptism is necessary for salvation, would not Jesus have been the first to baptize folks?  After all, He suffered extreme humiliation at the hands of the Pharisees and the Romans, then died a cruel death on the cross -- just to offer you and me eternal life, i.e., salvation.  Since He went to that extreme -- wouldn't He have been eager to do something as simple as baptizing people IF that could save them eternally?  Yet, this Scripture passage tells us, "Jesus Himself was not baptizing."

The Scripture verse most often used to justify "baptismal regeneration," i.e., salvation through physical baptism -- is John 3:5, when Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Of course, we know that the Spirit in this verse is the Holy Spirit.  But, what did He mean by "water"?   There are several possibly valid interpretations explaining that "water."  One is the water of our natural birth.  And, that can be supported to some extent by:

 

John 3:6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

 

However, if we follow His discussion with the woman of Samaria in John 4, I believe we can see that "water" is really the Word of God, both Living (Jesus Christ) and Written (Scripture):

 

John 4:10-11, "Jesus answered and said to her, 'If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, "Give Me a drink," you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.'    She said to Him, 'Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?'"

John 4:13-14, "Jesus answered and said to her, 'Everyone who drinks of this water (from the well) will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.'"

 

How can anyone view this Living Water as anything other than Jesus Christ and the Written Word of God?  One cannot have Jesus Christ and the Word of God in his heart and not be saved (1 John 5:12).  Yet, one can be wet from baptismal water, or from birth water -- and still be lost eternally.

My Friend's next question:

Andrea:  "Consider another passage:  Acts 22:16, 'And now what are you waiting for?  Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'   Note the phrase 'wash your sins away.'   How is it possible to 'wash your sins away'?  Could it be that sin needs to be 'washed away' for a person to be saved?  Is simple acceptance of the Word able to 'wash sins away'?  Do we just say the Sinner's prayer (Westminster Catechism) and profess a Gospel Creed?  Is that enough to save us?"

First, the Sinner's Prayer is not the Westminster Catechism, nor a Creed.   The Sinner's Prayer is merely the person confessing, in his/her own words, as he/she understands that, as a member of mankind we know that we are broken and need a Savior.  We know that Jesus Christ came to earth in a human body as God Incarnate.   We know that He came to take our sins upon Himself and to die in our place to pay the sin death debt we all owe to God.   We know that He rose from the dead to assure that man will be resurrected into immortal life.  We know that He ascended back into heaven to be our only Mediator between God and man.  And we know that Jesus Christ wants us to be adopted into God's family as His brethren (Hebrews 2:17).  

Do the words of the Sinner's Prayer have any magic ability to save us?  No.  Only what is in our hearts, Jesus Christ, can save us (1 John 5:12).  So, we confess to Jesus Christ that we know that we need Him in our hearts, and we know why we need Him.   Then, we invite Him to come into our hearts, into our lives, and be our very best Friend, our Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20) -- giving us eternal life, i.e., eternal salvation.

When we sin, we go to God in prayer -- seeking His forgiveness and a strength from Him to overcome that sin.  Is God surprised when we confess our sin to Him?  No.  He already knows what we have done.   So, why bother telling Him?   We pray, confess our sin, and ask His forgiveness -- to acknowledge that we recognize our sin, that we own our sin, and that we want His help in overcoming that sin.

Just as confessing our sin to God shows that we understand and accept our sin -- when we pray the Sinner's Prayer, the words cannot save us -- but, by acknowledging that we need Jesus Christ as our Savior, and through faith we ask Him to be our Savior -- if we are sincere, we do receive that gift of eternal life in Christ.  When we understand the Gospel, when we understand our need for Him as Savior, and in faith receive Him -- we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13).  That is eternal salvation.

So, just to reiterate:  the words of the Sinner's Prayer are not magic.  One person may pray a long elaborate prayer -- while another person many just confess, "Jesus, Lord, I want and need You in my life."   If both are sincere, both are equally saved and have eternal life in Christ.

Andrea asks, "Note the phrase 'wash your sins away.'   How is it possible to 'wash your sins away'?  Could it be that sin needs to be 'washed away' for a person to be saved?  Is simple acceptance of the Word able to 'wash sins away'?"

You must ask yourself:  "Are my sins washed away by the water of baptism -- or by the precious blood of Jesus Christ?"  And, we know that only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash away our sin.  And, we know that was accomplished when He died on the cross, i.e., "It is finished!" (John 19:30).

After that, it is up to each individual "by grace through faith" in that finished work -- to believe and receive His "paid in full" gift of eternal life -- purchased by His precious blood.  If we believe and receive the Son, we have life.  If we do not believe and receive the Son, we do not have life (1 John 5:12).  It is His blood which washes away sin, not water.

You refer to Acts 22:16 when Ananias (not Jesus Christ) tells Paul, "Now why do you delay?  Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."

Let's look deeper into what has happened to Paul (Acts 9) and what is now occurring in Acts 22:

 

Acts 9:1-6 (nkjv), "Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest (2) and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way (Christian), whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.  (3) As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.  (4) Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?'  (5) And he said, 'Who are You, Lord?' Then the Lord said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.  It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'  (6) So he, trembling and astonished, said, 'Lord, what do You want me to do?'  Then the Lord said to him, 'Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.'

 

Then, we read of the Lord instructing Ananias regarding Paul:

 

Acts 9:15-17, "But the Lord said to him, 'Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.  (16) For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake.'  (17) And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.' "

 

What so we see in these two passages?  First, we see Christ appearing (a theophany) to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus.  We see Paul asking Jesus, whom he had just met in a most dramatic way, "Lord, what would You have me to do?" 

What happens when a non-believer meets Jesus for the first time and surrenders to Him?  We ask, "Lord, what would You have me to do?" -- just as Paul did in that life changing moment.  Personally, I believe that, at that moment, Paul had surrendered his life to Christ and became a believer.

But, let's look deeper.  Christ appears to Ananias and instructs him what to do with the new believer, Saul/Paul.  Christ tells Ananias, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. . ."

And Ananias, laying his hands on Paul told him, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

What has happened here?  Ananias addresses Saul/Paul as "Brother Saul" -- showing that Ananias already views Paul as a Christian brother, saved.   Then, he tells Paul, "The Lord Jesus,. . . has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

I read that as Ananias telling Paul that he will receive his "spiritual sight" - i.e., be shown what the Lord would have him do.  And, that Paul would be "filled" with the Holy Spirit.  Paul would be "filled" with the Holy Spirit to empower him to do the work Christ has chosen him to do.  

"Spiritual sight"
would be similar to a person being called to the ministry as a pastor, evangelist, teacher, etc.   And, notice that the writer of Acts, Luke the historian, specifically writes "filled" with the Holy Spirit and not indwelled/sealed with the Holy Spirit.   We are indwelled/sealed at the moment of our conversion, only one time and that is eternal.  Yet, to empower us to continue to do the will of God, we need to be "filled" with the Holy Spirit daily.  We do that through daily prayer and daily study of God's Word.

Indwelling and sealing are a one-time, eternal event.  Filling with the Holy Spirit is like food, we need it every day to sustain us and to empower us to do God's will for that day.

Then, we read in Acts 9:18, "Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once (his calling as a new believer?); and he arose and was baptized."

Yes, Paul was baptized.  But the baptism was the result of his salvation, not the cause of his salvation.

There is a parallel to this in Acts 2, after the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 disciples waiting in the Upper Room; after He both indwelled them and filled/empowered them -- the apostles went outside and preached to the crowd of Jews gathered in the street where more than 3000 received the gift of eternal life, salvation:

 

Acts 2:37-38, "Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brethren, what shall we do?'  (38) Peter said to them, 'Repent, and (then) each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling/sealing).' "

 

Notice what happened:  Peter shared the Gospel - the Jews on the street were pierced to the heart (Holy Spirit conviction) -  they surrendered, "What shall we do" (the same thing Paul asked Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus) - They are told, "Repent!. . . (turn from the world and turn to believe and follow Jesus Christ) - THEN, "be baptized." 

The same thing has happened to all believers:  We heard the Gospel; we were convicted; we surrendered to Christ; we repent (turn around from the world, to Him) -- and then we follow Him in baptism.   When did the baptism occur?   After the conviction, surrender, and repentance, i.e., after salvation has occurred.  After His blood has cleansed us.  Then, in obedience, we follow Him in baptism, our symbolic death to the world, and our symbolic resurrection as a new creature in Christ.

Acts 9:1-6 is the actual story of Paul's conversion.  But, like most good pastors/teachers/evangelists -- Paul often told the story of his conversion as part of his sharing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Personal testimony in narrative is a powerful witnessing tool, i.e., "This is who I was before meeting Christ -- and look at the change in me now.  That same change can happen in your life when you receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior."  Great witness.

So, in Acts 21 and 22, when the angry mob of Jews was about to beat Paul to death for his witness -- the commander of the Roman cohort took Paul into custody.  When Paul identified himself as a Jew and a Roman citizen, the commander allowed Paul to speak to the angry mob of Jews.  Paul addressed them in their native language and told them of meeting Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus.

And, in Acts 26, Paul is standing accused before King Agrippa -- and once again Paul relates the story of his conversion on the road to Damascus in testimony, this time to King Agrippa.  So persuasive is Paul's testimony before King Agrippa that we read:

 

Acts 26:28, "Agrippa replied to Paul, 'In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian.'   And Paul said, 'I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.' "

 

While we know that Paul was baptized, he tells us that he was not sent to baptize.  If baptism is a requirement of salvation; why was Paul not sent to baptize?   We read of Paul telling the church fellowship at Corinth:

 

1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

 

And, we read of Jesus regarding baptism:

 

John 4:1-3, "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), He left Judea and went away again into Galilee."

 

Now, consider this.  Jesus came and died so that we might be saved.  If baptism is required to be saved -- wouldn't Jesus be baptizing people?  And, would Paul tell us that Jesus did not send him to baptize -- but, only to preach the Gospel -- if baptism is necessary for salvation and for washing away our sins? 

What is necessary for salvation?  To hear and respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:13, 2:8-9), allowing His blood to wash us clean of sin (Hebrews 7:27, 9:12, 9:14, 9:22, 1 Peter 1:19, Luke 22:20) -- as the Holy Spirit indwells and seals us eternally (Ephesians 4:30). 

Andrea, I am happy that we can have these dialogues, for I believe we both learn from them and grow in our knowledge of God's Word through our willingness to openly discuss different Scriptural issues.  And, my Friend, I look forward to you and me continuing these discussion eternally.  Then, we will have the greatest Professor who ever lived and existed eternally, Jesus Christ, teaching us.  Can you imagine, spending an eternity at the feet of Jesus, learning from Him?  There can be no reward greater than that.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

1 Corinthians 1-17 - Cross - It Is Finished

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Andrea,

 

Note that Bill posted these verses in his wordy message to you:

 

1 Corinthians 15:1-2,  "Now I make known to you, brethren, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, (2) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

 

Bill is fond of asserting  the Calvinistic precept of security of the believer, A.K.A. "perseverance of the saints" or "once saved-always saved" (OSAS). It is interesting to consider the above-cited verses in light of the OASA concept.  .  Paul was obviously written to BELIEVERS.  He posits that   those BELIEVERS might have "believed in vain." He clearly contemplates that they would stand in jeopardy of losing their salvation if they "believed in vain." He tells them that the Gospel is that by which they are saved, but he inserts a powerful little word to qualify that, namely the "if" in this phrase: "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you."

 

Those who know their grammar and their definitions understand that when "if" is used, it describes something that is CONDITIONAL upon something else.  In this case, the use of "if" makes it plain to all except the  tunnel-visioned OSAS crowd that salvation IS conditional upon something, and that something is holding fast to the word.  Believers who fail to "hold fast the word" will not continue in a saved state.  Otherwise, why would the apostle issue such a warning as he has here?

 

Bill's standard attempt to support his OSASism is to claim that persons such as those to whom Paul addressed this warning were never saved in the first place, i. e. they never really "believed.". But the inspired word says they were BELIEVERS, and Bill's preferred frame of reference for saved folks is "Christian believers". Moreover, the other side of the coin in Paul's cautionary advice to his brethren is that IF they "hold fast", they will be saved; thus there should be no question but that these were sincere "believers"..  They were already "hold[ng] fast".the word, and they needed to continue  "hold[ing] fast" the word."

Bill,

 

That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and othersNOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel."  It is parallel to the usage in I John 2:18: "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and truth.") We are indeed, as Christians to express love in the words we say, but not ONLY in words. It is not forbidden by John's words. Paul came not to baptize ONLY, but to preach the fullness of the Gospel.  Paul would not claim that he was not sent to baptize in any absolute sense, since he was subject to the same commission as other apostles and evangelists, as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus expressly commands his disciples to baptize!

quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

Bill,   That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and others NOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel."

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Let's look at 1 Corinthians 1:17 in many different Bible translations:


KJV: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

NKJV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

NLT:  For Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.

NIV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

ESV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

RVR60:  Pues no me envió Cristo a bautizar, sino a predicar el evangelio; no con sabiduría de palabras, para que no se haga vana la cruz de Cristo.

NASB:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

RSV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

ASV:  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.

YLT:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;

DBY:  For Christ has not sent me to baptise, but to preach glad tidings; not in wisdom of word, that the cross of the Christ may not be made vain.

WEB:  For Christ hath not sent me to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

HNV:  For Messiah sent me not to immerse, but to preach the Good News -- not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Messiah wouldn't be made void.

VUL:  non enim misit me Christus baptizare sed evangelizare non in sapientia verbi ut non evacuetur crux Christi

 

Contendah, please show us the ONLY in that verse -- in any of those translations.What Bible are you using?   Maybe the Herbert Armstrong version?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

Bill,   That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and others NOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel."

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Let's look at 1 Corinthians 1:17 in many different Bible translations:


KJV: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

NKJV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

NLT:  For Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.

NIV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

ESV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

RVR60:  Pues no me envió Cristo a bautizar, sino a predicar el evangelio; no con sabiduría de palabras, para que no se haga vana la cruz de Cristo.

NASB:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

RSV:  For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

ASV:  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.

YLT:  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but -- to proclaim good news; not in wisdom of discourse, that the cross of the Christ may not be made of none effect;

DBY:  For Christ has not sent me to baptise, but to preach glad tidings; not in wisdom of word, that the cross of the Christ may not be made vain.

WEB:  For Christ hath not sent me to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

HNV:  For Messiah sent me not to immerse, but to preach the Good News -- not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Messiah wouldn't be made void.

VUL:  non enim misit me Christus baptizare sed evangelizare non in sapientia verbi ut non evacuetur crux Christi

 

Contendah, please show us the ONLY in that verse -- in any of those translations.What Bible are you using?   Maybe the Herbert Armstrong version?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

___

Before I answer you, Bill, I invite you to pay attention to and respond to the last part of my post, namely:

 

"Paul would not claim that he was not sent to baptize in any absolute sense, since he was subject to the same commission as other apostles and evangelists, as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus expressly commands his disciples to baptize!"

 

You conveniently neglected to address that comment.  The verse I cited completely refutes your contention that Paul was saying, in any absolute sense, that he was not sent by Christ to baptize.  Or do you perhaps believe that Jesus had one set of Great Commission instructions for those to whom He spoke in Matthew 28 and some contradictory set of instructions for Paul?

quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:
Before I answer you, Bill, I invite you to pay attention to and respond to the last part of my post, namely:

 

"Paul would not claim that he was not sent to baptize in any absolute sense, since he was subject to the same commission as other apostles and evangelists, as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus expressly commands his disciples to baptize!"

 

You conveniently neglected to address that comment.  The verse I cited completely refutes your contention that Paul was saying, in any absolute sense, that he was not sent by Christ to baptize.  Or do you perhaps believe that Jesus had one set of Great Commission instructions for those to whom He spoke in Matthew 28 and some contradictory set of instructions for Paul?

Contendah, my Friend,

 

Not so!  Let's take a look at the Great Commission Scripture passages:

 

Matthew 28:19-20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Acts 1:8, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Mark 16:15, "And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation.'

 

Please notice the progression:  (1) GO!, then (2) Make Disciples, then (3) Baptize Them, and finally (4) Teach Them.

 

We GO, share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and those who believe and receive His gift of eternal life, i.e., salvation (disciiples) -- we baptize them and then we continue to teach them so that they grow more mature in the Word of God.

 

And, notice in the additional Great Commission passages:  (1) Be My witnesses, and (2) Preach the Gospel!    Where is the baptizing there?   This is exactly what Jesus Christ instructed the apostle Paul -- Go, preach the Gospel!   No way to slip "baptism" into 1 Corinthians 1:17.

 

Contendah, you tell me, ". . . in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus expressly commands his disciples to baptize!"

 

That is true.   However, the people to be baptized -- have already believed, been saved, and now should follow Christ in baptism.   Baptism is the result of salvation; not the cause of salvation.  Just as works is the result of salvation; not the cause of salvation.

 

And, Contendah, no, we are not playing King Of The Hill to see who knows Scripture better -- or who better interprets Scripture.  We are laying Scripture out in plain view so that we, and all who read our dialogues, can see for ourselves what the Bible is literally teaching, in plain words.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

2 Timothy 3_16-17 - Bible Inspired By God

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  • 2 Timothy 3_16-17 - Bible Inspired By God
Last edited by Bill Gray
quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

Bill,   That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and others NOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel." 

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I do believe YOU are putting words into the mouth of Paul.

 

Paul wrote, in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

 

But, you tell us, "But, Paul REALLY meant to say, 'For Christ did not send me to baptize ONLY, but to preach the gospel. . . "

 

Don't you think Paul was intelligent enough to have included ONLY if he really meant ONLY?  After all, Paul was a highly educated and lettered man.  I think he knew how to write what he meant.

And, God is most definitely omnipotent enough to inspire Paul to write what HE, God, wanted to be written.

 

My Friend, this attempt by you to add to Scripture is a perfect example of Eisegesis -- reading INTO Scripture what you WANT it to say -- so that it fits your preconceived theology and erroneous beliefs.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

1 Corinthians 1-17 - Cross - It Is Finished

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  • 1 Corinthians 1-17 - Cross - It Is Finished
Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:  Originally Posted by Contendah:

Bill,   That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and others NOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel." 

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I do believe YOU are putting words into the mouth of Paul.

 

Paul wrote, in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."

 

But, you tell us, "But, Paul REALLY meant to say, 'For Christ did not send me to baptize ONLY, but to preach the gospel. . . "

 

Don't you think Paul was intelligent enough to have included ONLY if he really meant ONLY?  After all, Paul was a highly educated and lettered man.  I think he knew how to write what he meant.

And, God is most definitely omnipotent enough to inspire Paul to write what HE, God, wanted to be written.

 

My Friend, this attempt by you to add to Scripture is a perfect example of Eisegesis -- reading INTO Scripture what you WANT it to say -- so that it fits your preconceived theology and erroneous beliefs.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

Bill,

 

You continue to ignore the heart of what I posted earlier, because you really have no good answer to offer. You have not touched it one bit, neither edge, side nor bottom, because YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT!!   Here it is again:

 

"That illustration at the end of your post ("For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel....") is a verse that I have repeatedly shown you and othersNOT to have the meaning you repeatedly attribute to it.  It is a verse grammatically structured to have the meaning "not to baptize only, but to preach the gospel."  It is parallel to the usage in I John 2:18: "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and truth.") We are indeed, as Christians to express love in the words we say, but not ONLY in words. It is not forbidden by John's words. Paul came not to baptize ONLY, but to preach the fullness of the Gospel.  Paul would not claim that he was not sent to baptize in any absolute sense, since he was subject to the same commission as other apostles and evangelists, as expressed by Jesus in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus expressly commands his disciples to baptize!"

 

 

Contendah, my Friend,

 

I most certainly did address the heart of you rambling statement.  Paul distinctly tell us he was NOT sent to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.   How much clearer could he have been?

 

And, yes, in Matthew 28:19 Jesus does tell us to, "Go -- Make disciples -- Baptize them -- Teach them."

 

Notice once again the sequence:  (1) GO, (2) MAKE DISCIPLES (in other words, lead them to salvation in Jesus Christ, THEN (3) BAPTIZE THEM, and (4) TEACH THEM.

 

Maybe you are blinded by legalism -- but in the sequence above -- SALVATION comes first (without the need for baptism) -- THEN BAPTISM!   Works for me!

 

And, it obviously worked for Jesus:

 

John 4:1-2, "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)."

 

Now tell me this, since Jesus was willing to suffer cruel mocking and punishment and actually DIE to offer us salvation -- if salvation could be gain just by getting wet -- why did He need to die?

 

And, why if baptism so imperative for salvation to Him -- did He did not do it himself, but allowed others to do it -- AFTER they had made disciples? 

 

Once again, please notice the sequence:  ". . .the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making (making disciples, i.e., leading them to salvation) and (THEN)baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)."

 

Contendah, I realize that you are blinded by your legalistic theology in whatever Armstrong type secret church you attend (you do, don't you?).  But, to force baptism into salvation after reading these Scripture passages -- that is the ultimate in EISEGESIS -- forcing INTO Scripture what is NOT there.

 

However, you follow whoever or whatever gods you want -- I will continue to follow God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Bible Clarity Or Sin

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  • Bible Clarity Or Sin

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