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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

WAS AMERICA FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION - and is America still a Christian nation?

One of the first acts of our current White House resident was to visit a Middle Eastern Muslim nation and publicly declare that America is no longer a Christian nation.  Most of the actions taken by our current White House resident since initially taking office has been to make his dream of America not being a Christian nation come true.  He has failed!

Of course, all the atheists and other confused non-believers will loudly declare, "America was not founded as a Christian Nation - and America is not a Christian nation!"

And, even many of our Far Left Liberal (most often Socialist) and Legalistic Christian brethren will agree with those wayward folks -- and disagree with all Christians who declare that America was, is, and always will be a Christian nation; somewhat flawed, often weak in her own defense -- but, still Christian to the core.

Today, I received my regular eNewsletter from the Christian ministry "Stand To Reason" -- a Christian apologetic ministry. 

 

Their stated goal:

 

Stand to Reason trains Christians to think more clearly about their faith and to make an even-handed, incisive, yet gracious defense for classical Christianity and classical Christian values in the public square.

 

With this in mind, and with Voting Day fast approaching (next Tuesday) -- let's take a look at the Faith of our Founding Fathers in this video:

 

What Was the Faith of Our Founding Fathers?
http://www.str.org/videos/what...fathers#.VE_pU1eB2po

There’s been a lot of discussion about the faith of our Founding Fathers that is odd in light of what the facts are.  It’s not unusual for people to say, “The faith of our Founding Fathers was really a deism.”  Not Christianity, but rather deism: nature’s god.  It’s easy to answer this question, and all we have to do is look at the Founding Fathers. 

Founding Fathers refers to the 55 signers to the Constitutional Convention.  Benjamin Franklin was there, but Jefferson was in France at the time.  Though Jefferson influenced the whole enterprise, he wasn’t there. 

 

Of the 55 Founding Fathers, 28 of them were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterian, 7 were Congregationalist, 2 Lutheran, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 1 unknown, and were 3 deists, including Franklin. 

Franklin wasn’t the standard deist of the continent.  He was the one who prayed during the Constitutional Convention to ask God to intervene at an impasse.  The prayer broke the impasse, and they were able to finish it. 

When you’re talking about the Founding Fathers, the 55 signers of the Constitution of the United States, a full 93% of them were publicly sworn confessional Christians.  They weren’t deists

 

This was a time when it required a public declaration and swearing to your own convictions in order to be part of that enterprise.  In fact, 20% were Calvinists.  Founding Fathers deists?  Hardly.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Stand to Reason's Statement of Faith 
http://www.str.org/articles/st...f-faith#.VE_uAFeB2po

Stand to Reason represents classical Christianity - orthodox Christian beliefs that have been affirmed since the first Christians.  Click on the URL above to view their complete Statement of Faith.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Biography of Greg Koukl, Founder and President, Stand to Reason
http://www.str.org/training/speakers/greg-koukl

Greg started out thinking he was too smart to become a Christian and ended up giving his life to the defense of the Christian faith.  A central theme of Greg's speaking and writing is that Christianity can compete in the marketplace of ideas when it's properly understood and properly articulated.   Greg has published more than 180 articles and has spoken on nearly 60 university and college campuses both in the U.S. and abroad.

Greg received his Masters in Philosophy of Religion and Ethics at Talbot School of Theology, graduating with high honors, and his Masters in Christian Apologetics from Simon Greenleaf University.  He is an adjunct professor in Christian apologetics at Biola University.  He’s hosted his own radio talk show for over 20 years advocating clear-thinking Christianity and defending the Christian worldview.

 

My Friends, YES, America was founded as a Christian nation -- and America is a Christian nation!  

"Your mission, should you choose to accept it, Mr./Mrs. Christian, is to share His Word wit
h the world.  And, to VOTE God publicly back into America once more."  Fade out, Mission Impossible theme song playing in the background.

ARE YOU READY TO VOTE NEXT TUESDAY?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill 
 

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Yes, that is why the First Amendment says Christianity is the religion of the United States, and Article VI, paragraph 3 says only Christians can hold any office or public trust under the United States. 

 

Wait, no it doesn't. 

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

 

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

 

There is no mention of Christianity in the Constitution. The Oath of Office of the President in the Constitution reads, "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."  Nowhere in the Constitution is God or any other deity mentioned.

 

Yes, the overwhelming majority of the signers of the Constitution were Christians, but they had the wisdom to see that the liberty and freedom of individuals was the reason this nation was founded. 

 

It will be argued that when the the First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," that the original intent really meant the amendment to say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Christianity, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."  This is not true.  The signers of the Constitution had the wisdom to understand that an individual's religious freedom was as important, if not more so, as any other right, no matter what religion, Christian Protestant, Christian Roman Catholic, Jew, etc...  The First Amendment was not intended for only Christians, but for all religious beliefs.

 

The Constitution and its amendments were written the way they are because what is written is the original intent.  To view it any other way is to take a liberal stance on Constitutional interpretation.

 

 

Bill Gray,

 

Your attempt at characterizing some alleged prayer of Benjamin Franklin's buys into a mythology that has come to persist around that subject.  You say,

 

"Franklin wasn’t the standard deist of the continent.  He was the one who prayed during the Constitutional Convention to ask God to intervene at an impasse.  The prayer broke the impasse, and they were able to finish it."

 

Not so, Bill.  Following a lack of progress and some acrid disputations at the convention, Franklin recommended that prayer be said at the beginning of subsequent sessions.  His motion was voted down and those prayers were not prayed.  The notion that Franklin himself offered prayer at the convention is totally off the wall.  He never did any such thing.

 

Read up on this and get yourself straightened out:

http://candst.tripod.com/franklin.htm

 

Historical revisionism of the type you practice, Bill, is a form of lying, and we all know what the Bible says about the ultimate destination of  liars. (Revelation 21:8; 22:15)

 

Last edited by Contendah

OldSalt posted the complete and accurate text of the Presidential oath of office, verbatim from the Constitution: 

 

  "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

 

All you theocratic revisionists out there, please take note.  This oath does NOT include the words "So help me God."  Moreover, here is no requirement in the Constitution that the oath be taken while holding one;'s hand on the Bible or any other book.  As a conservative  originalist and strict constructionist, I find it useful to point this out to m y Christian nationist acquaintances. 

America was NOT founded a christian nation.

 

Here is Article 11 of "The Treaty With Tripoli", signed by John Adams and composed under the presidency of George Washington.

 

Article 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Originally Posted by DHS-86:

America was NOT founded a christian nation.

 

Here is Article 11 of "The Treaty With Tripoli", signed by John Adams and composed under the presidency of George Washington.

 

Article 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

___

When the U.S. Senate considered that Article, a complete copy of it had been placed upon each Senator's desk.  It was not something that "slipped by"; it's content was made known and the Senators knowingly approved the treaty with its religious-based disclaimer :

 

<<<<The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United States Senate clearly specifies that the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and that copies of the treaty were printed "for the use of the Senate." Nor is it plausible to argue that perhaps Senators voted for the treaty without being aware of the famous words. The treaty was quite short, requiring only two or three pages to reprint in most treaty books today--and printed, in its entirely, on but one page (sometimes the front page) of U.S. newspapers of the day. The lack of any recorded argument about the wording, as well as the unanimous vote  and the wide reprinting of the words in the press of 1797, suggests that the idea that the government was not a Christian one was widely and easily accepted at the time."

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/tripoli.htm

 

The "time" referred to was 1797, the year in which the treaty was ratified, a time in which many of the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution were still alive and active.  George Washington  was President at that time. John Adams was alive and well. Shall we brand those two as as anti-Christian revisionists?

Last edited by Contendah

Oh, well,

 

I had my say -- and now the cabal of non-believers have had their say.   So be it!

 

I believe this supports my belief:

 

Of the 55 Founding Fathers, 28 of them were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterian, 7 were Congregationalist, 2 Lutheran, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 1 unknown, and were 3 deists, including Franklin. 

 

So, I will practice my Christian faith.  And, you are free to practice whatever religion, including atheism, makes your toes tingle.  That is the true beauty of the First Amendment!

 

Bless your little anti-Christian hearts!

 

Bill

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Originally Posted by Crash.Override:

i made the mistake, a few months ago, of trying to correct bill on this issue... you're all wasting your time.. bill can't be wrong, his ego won't let him.

______

We've all tried to correct him about something at one time or another. His ego is why he tells lies about his life. It has to be a miserable existence to be Bill Gray.

Questions

 

1) Can it be a majority and still be referred to as a CABAL?

2) Can it include a huge diversity of Catholics, numerous Protestant Denominations, and various other sectors of Christian beliefs, plus atheists and agnostics, and still be referred to as a cabal of non-believers?

3) is it all in the head of a demented, egotistical, senile old man?

 

No names please... We are all familiar with the village troll...

 

Last edited by Dove of Peace
Originally Posted by Dove of Peace:

Questions

 

1) Can it be a majority and still be referred to as a CABAL?

2) Can it include a huge diversity of Catholics, numerous Protestant Denominations, and various other sectors of Christian beliefs, plus atheists and agnostics, and still be referred to as a cabal of non-believers?

3) is it all in the head of a demented, egotistical, senile old man?

 

No names please... We are all familiar with the village troll...

 

____________________

#3

Last edited by OldSalt
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Oh, well,

 

I had my say -- and now the cabal of non-believers have had their say.   So be it!

 

I believe this supports my belief:

 

Of the 55 Founding Fathers, 28 of them were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterian, 7 were Congregationalist, 2 Lutheran, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 1 unknown, and were 3 deists, including Franklin. 

 

________________
Which of these do you consider Christian?  You've pretty much denounced all of them.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Oh, well,

 

I had my say -- and now the cabal of non-believers have had their say.   So be it!

 

I believe this supports my belief:

 

Of the 55 Founding Fathers, 28 of them were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterian, 7 were Congregationalist, 2 Lutheran, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 1 unknown, and were 3 deists, including Franklin. 

 

So, I will practice my Christian faith.  And, you are free to practice whatever religion, including atheism, makes your toes tingle.  That is the true beauty of the First Amendment!

 

Bless your little anti-Christian hearts!

 

Bill

******************************************

TRANSLATION:  I am incapable of defending what I posted against the well-documented information and analyses subsequently posted by others.  Therefore I will cite selected

information from my initial post that in no way proves my point and smugly pretend that it does.

 

Along the way I will castigate those who have differed with me as "non-believers," thus framing my obvious defeat as a case of the lone righteous Superchristian boldly defending truth, justice, and the American way against the onslaught of the heathen devils. 

 

Last edited by Contendah

More evidence:

The U.S. Founding Fathers: Their Religious Beliefs

Although the Declaration of Independence mentioned “Nature’s God” and the “Creator,” the Constitution made no reference to a divine being, Christian or otherwise, and the First Amendment explicitly forbid the establishment of any official church or creed. There is also a story, probably apocryphal, that Benjamin Franklin’s proposal to call in a chaplain to offer a prayer when a particularly controversial issue was being debated in the Constitutional Convention prompted Hamilton to observe that he saw no reason to call in foreign aid. If there is a clear legacy bequeathed by the founders, it is the insistence that religion was a private matter in which the state should not interfere.

In recent decades Christian advocacy groups, prompted by motives that have been questioned by some, have felt a powerful urge to enlist the Founding Fathers in their respective congregations. But recovering the spiritual convictions of the Founders, in all their messy integrity, is not an easy task. Once again, diversity is the dominant pattern. Franklin and Jefferson were deists, Washington harbored a pantheistic sense of providential destiny, John Adams began a Congregationalist and ended a Unitarian, Hamilton was a lukewarm Anglican for most of his life but embraced a more actively Christian posture after his son died in a duel.

One quasi-religious conviction they all shared, however, was a discernible obsession with living on in the memory of posterity. One reason the modern editions of their papers are so monstrously large is that most of the Founders were compulsively fastidious about preserving every scrap of paper they wrote or received, all as part of a desire to leave a written record that would assure their secular immortality in the history books. (When John Adams and Jefferson discussed the possibility of a more conventional immortality, they tended to describe heaven as a place where they could resume their ongoing argument on earth.) Adams, irreverent to the end, declared that, if it could ever be demonstrated conclusively that no future state existed, his advice to every man, woman, and child was to “take opium.” The only afterlife which they considered certain was in the memory of subsequent generations, which is to say us. In that sense, these very blog posts are a testimonial to their everlasting life.

 

http://www.britannica.com/blog...r-religious-beliefs/

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Oh, well,

 

I had my say -- and now the cabal of non-believers have had their say.   So be it!

 

So, I will practice my Christian faith.  And, you are free to practice whatever religion, including atheism, makes your toes tingle.  That is the true beauty of the First Amendment!

 

Bless your little anti-Christian hearts!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And God help the "Christians in name only" self appointed Jesus'.

 

"Speak not evil one of another, brethren, he that speaks evil of his brother

and judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law, but if you

judge the law you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver

that is able to save and to destroy. Who are you that judges another?"

James 4: 11-12

   

Last edited by INVICTUS
Originally Posted by Contendah:

Bill Gray,

 

Your attempt at characterizing some alleged prayer of Benjamin Franklin's buys into a mythology that has come to persist around that subject.  You say,

 

"Franklin wasn’t the standard deist of the continent.  He was the one who prayed during the Constitutional Convention to ask God to intervene at an impasse.  The prayer broke the impasse, and they were able to finish it."

 

Not so, Bill.  Following a lack of progress and some acrid disputations at the convention, Franklin recommended that prayer be said at the beginning of subsequent sessions.  His motion was voted down and those prayers were not prayed.  The notion that Franklin himself offered prayer at the convention is totally off the wall.  He never did any such thing.

 

Read up on this and get yourself straightened out:

http://candst.tripod.com/franklin.htm

 

Historical revisionism of the type you practice, Bill, is a form of lying, and we all know what the Bible says about the ultimate destination of  liars. (Revelation 21:8; 22:15)

______

 I correct my stuff when I find an error.  I re-read the information cited above and found that Franklin's motion was not voted down, but that the convention session adjourned without bringing it to a vote.  Whatever the circumstances, the prayers were not said by Franklin or anyone else. 

 

Last edited by Contendah
quote:  Originally Posted by jackaloupe:

Our Nation was founded as a Christian Nation -- but most Churches have become more of a Social Club for entertainment or to Eat.

Hi Jack,

 

I agree with you 100% that America was founded on Christian principles, was founded as a Christian nation, and the source of inspiration for our founding documents was found in similar English documents, which were based upon Scripture.

 

And, I agree that too many Christian churches have become "feel good" churches who want more to make folks feel comfortable -- than to teach folks about their eternal destiny.  Too many churches are afraid to teach about hell, and God's plan for eternal salvation.

 

That is why I strongly believe that a church fellowship should have a strong expositionally lead Bible study program, as well as a good Sunday School program.  Most of our knowledge of God's Word and  our growth toward Christian maturity -- comes from good interactive discussions which can only be found in Bible studies and Sunday School classes.  In a sermon, we learn, but all we can do is listen.  In the other two, we can discuss -- which is how we grow.

 

I have often compared a church fellowship to a three legged stool.  One leg is the Sunday sermon, another is the Bible study program, and the third is the Sunday School program.  With all three legs, that church is strong and growing spiritually.

 

Remove one leg and that church becomes wobbly, unstable.

 

Remove two legs and that church is in trouble.   Have you ever tried to sit on a stool which only had one leg?

 

But, to the Food Fellowship -- I have to admit that I do enjoy that.   In our church we have our worship service, then Food Fellowship where we can be refreshed and chat with Friends we have not seen for a few days -- and then go into our Sunday School class.   Makes for a great day.

 

I guess I am partial because I have been in Filipino-American churches for 27 years -- and they do know how to provide good Food Fellowship.

 

I have run into problems in some of our Bible studies -- when the Food Fellowship comes before the Bible study.  Too often, folks get to eating and chatting -- and before you know it our Bible study is starting way too late.  I am all for the Food Fellowship -- but, have the Bible study first -- and then we can spend all the time we want just enjoying the food and the fellowship.

 

I did not intend to write this much -- but, you got me into subjects near and dear to my heart -- studying God's Word and sharing good fellowship.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray

Bill DHL™, your contention that the US was founded as a "Christian nation" relies on false premises, lies, and the likes of David Barton, another proven liar.  Everything you have provided as proof has been easily and soundly refuted. 

 

Using your own phrasing, you just like to throw it out there and see if it will stick.  It never does.

 

 

bill liars for jesus 2_

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