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What would it take to put America back where She needs to be in regards to the ideals She once possessed and projected to the rest of the world?

I am requesting a CIVIL debate, please.

'The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.'

'When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.'

'And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.'

'An elective despotism was not the government we fought for.' - Thomas Jefferson

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quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
It projected liberalism, individualism, freedom and a sense of risqueness as well as honest values which I believe were swallowed and destroyed by Corporatism and anything for the Bottom Line.


You can't have individualism and freedom in a socialist state.

To get this country back to the values it was founded with, people need to understand that they aren't limited to voting for Democrat or Republican. Put new people in with new ideas and we'll have new solutions. Recycle the same two parties and we'll go further down the hole we're digging.
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NashBama


You can't have individualism and freedom in a socialist state.

To get this country back to the values it was founded with, people need to understand that they aren't limited to voting for Democrat or Republican. Put new people in with new ideas and we'll have new solutions. Recycle the same two parties and we'll go further down the hole we're digging.


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I agree that the two party system has failed but I believe it has been corrupted by money, not the first time in our history this has happened. We must first understand the problem which I believe to be the loss of freedom and individualism from Corporate America. A homiginized system where we suprress our individualism for the corporation.

It has no values other then the bottom line.

Socialism is just a safty net and the government, by the people, running social services. European countries that use socialism have individualism and freedom.

We agree we need freedom but Capitalism is not freedom. It is an economic system that feeds on exploitation.
quote:
Socialism is just a safty net and the government, by the people, running social services. European countries that use socialism have individualism and freedom.


That's completely false. If the government socializes everything, then there is no safety net. Do you really trust the government to run things right?

Just curious, how long did you live in Europe?
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
It projected liberalism, individualism, freedom and a sense of risqueness as well as honest values which I believe were swallowed and destroyed by Corporatism and anything for the Bottom Line.



He meant back when we were a power and considered the protector of the free world, not when jimmy carter was giving away the Panama Canal.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
It projected liberalism, individualism, freedom and a sense of risqueness as well as honest values which I believe were swallowed and destroyed by Corporatism and anything for the Bottom Line.


Risqueness? What does a lascivious lifestyle have to do with liberalism, individualism and freedom? Perhaps, you're revealing your libertine roots. That's OK!
That's kind of what I thought the direction was in this posting. The reason I asked about ideals was make sure we were on the same page.
I think the bottom line, and correct me if I'm wrong, to the post was "What could we do to be looked upon, favorably, by the rest of the World, as we once-upon-a-time were.
I say once upon a time, because there have many times when the good ol' USA has not been seen as the "Great Savior"
However, our American "Heritage" wealth, freedoms,and, to a majority, our "good will"...have often in history, been a very nice smoke screen..."fuzzy feeling" of being nice...when the rest of the world "begs to differ".
We didn't WIN WW2 for the world...yet our taught history would point that way. It has been beat on our World Friends...that this was the case. I have many European friends who are really tired of this. As if their countries had nothing to do.
That's not to say It would have been won without us...but it went on several years before we were involved.
If our great moment was 1885...what would the "Natives" regard US...America?
Should it be the "Spanish American War"...we won, but how did the Phillipines view US from '98 till we turned them loose?
Cuba? How did they view us?
Mid Eastern Countries...way before Iraq/Afganistan?
Others...we're a "Bank Account"...
So, there is really nothing we can do to be the "Great Hope" of the world...we never were.
Again, there IS something we can do to force our Government to get back to the NUMBER ONE
responsibility it has to it's citizens, and that is...Americans First!
But I fear that will be violent.
Hmm… what would it take? Well, in all seriousness, America the nation is the people that comprise the nation. So the question might well be, “What is an American?” There are many answers, but you were asking what it would take to restore America to its ideals, so I think it is very basic start to define what it ideally means to be an American.

Some of the following is a paraphrase of things I have read before and a fairly complete embodiment of my sentiments. No, the words are not all mine but as I stated they embody my opinion, and probably many others’ opinion as well.

It is easy to see the REAL inconvenient and unfortunate truth, the American spirit has eroded. The Founders of this Nation, this ideal, would look with sadness at the servile and envious character of many of our citizens and policymakers. But the good news is that there are millions of Americans around the world, living in every country. Many of them will never make it here to the United States. But they are Americans, and just as millions discovered America in the past, we can rediscover what it means to be an American. The principles of this country are not merely abstractions; they are written in the hearts of all true Americans across the planet. It is the spirit of America and the essence of what it is to be American

An American is not automatically satisfied with his/her current situation. To be an American is be anyone who loves life enough to want the best that it has to offer and not through envy and confiscation of what someone else has, but through their own effort and ingenuity.

Americans are anyone who understands that to achieve the best in life requires action, exertion, and effort. Americans aren't idle daydreamers. Americans understand the need to use one's mind and wits to take the initiative and meet life's challenges. Americans seek economic prosperity, leaving behind the resentment in other countries that is aimed at those who better their material condition. Throughout the world and throughout history, millions of individuals have endured poverty with dignity. But there is no inherent dignity in poverty. Individuals came to America to farm their own farms and run their own enterprises, to BECOME Americans in more than just the spirit that burned in their hearts.

Americans are those who understand that achieving the best in life requires risks. Immigrants have no assurance of success in a new land with different habits, institutions and language. They leave friends, relatives and familiar places, often risking their lives to journey across oceans and hostile country to reach their new homes. In their hearts they are Americans. They, like all Americans, understand that the timid achieve nothing and forgo even that which sustains us through the worst of times: hope. REAL hope borne in the soul of someone who knows there is something better, not the saccharine little platitudes spewing from the mouths of oleaginous political opportunists.

Americans seek personal liberty, to live as they see fit while taking the risks they feel that are necessary to achieve their goals, and to worship as they please. Americans seek freedom from the use of power wielded arbitrarily by whoever holds the political sword. To be an American is to be an individual with allegiance to principles, rather than political parties. To have an America that is great is to have an America that celebrates individuals rather than pandering to groups that require sublimation of the individual to the group identity. Americans take responsibility for their own lives and their own actions. So we should NOT look to the government to fix what is wrong with the United States of America, but look to America to fix what is wrong with the government. Become an American, those of you who are not, and the greatness of the Nation will follow.

Here is another piece I recently read (the article is from Sept. 2001) that has much of the same sentiment... What is an American?
Even though I grew up in New York City and New Jersery we still valued the "Andy Griffith Show," but it wasn't the only show that inspired us either.

Our individualism was encouraged as well as our untiy as a people. We have been split between Liberal and Conservatives and pitted against each other.

I agree that while we lived the good life our government was lying to us and overthrowing governments and supporting repression and torture around the world but decided not to go there for the sake of a "civil" conversation.

If you watch YouTube video's and such you see our culture is dead and the rest of the world is moving on.

I believe a lot has to do with the demise of unions and decent living wages as well as Corporate domination of our lives.

What it would take to go back would be to stop fighting among each other and work to help each other lives a decent standard of living.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Even though I grew up in New York City and New Jersery we still valued the "Andy Griffith Show," but it wasn't the only show that inspired us either.

Our individualism was encouraged as well as our untiy as a people. We have been split between Liberal and Conservatives and pitted against each other.

I agree that while we lived the good life our government was lying to us and overthrowing governments and supporting repression and torture around the world but decided not to go there for the sake of a "civil" conversation.

If you watch YouTube video's and such you see our culture is dead and the rest of the world is moving on.

I believe a lot has to do with the demise of unions and decent living wages as well as Corporate domination of our lives.

What it would take to go back would be to stop fighting among each other and work to help each other lives a decent standard of living.


Unions? Really? I am going to re-ask a question that never got a honest, non-jest response.

Tell me anyone, why does someone start a business? Seriously. What is the purpose of business? Do you really think it is for the purpose of hiring people? Really?
quote:
Unions? Really? I am going to re-ask a question that never got a honest, non-jest response.

Tell me anyone, why does someone start a business? Seriously. What is the purpose of business? Do you really think it is for the purpose of hiring people? Really?


I imagine there are a variety of motives. I don't imagine hiring people is one of them.
quote:
Originally posted by dolemitejb:
quote:
Unions? Really? I am going to re-ask a question that never got a honest, non-jest response.

Tell me anyone, why does someone start a business? Seriously. What is the purpose of business? Do you really think it is for the purpose of hiring people? Really?


I imagine there are a variety of motives. I don't imagine hiring people is one of them.


Well it wouldn't be among the primary reasons for a rational person. Businesses are started for the generation of capital, money, assets, or what ever form of income one seeks to gain as profit for them self or their family. The purpose of business is to generate profit, that is all. Anyone who thinks that businesses are started to "create jobs" is an idiot. Further, the very idea that you can "create" real jobs is also idiotic. IF there is a real job, that means real work to be done ALREADY EXISTS. "Creating jobs" is socialist doubletalk.
quote:
IF there is a real job, that means real work to be done ALREADY EXISTS. "Creating jobs" is socialist doubletalk.


A "job" is created when the opportunity cost of doing something yourself is greater than the wage to get someone else to do it for you. So, yeah, I'm basically agreeing with you. The only nitpick is that the work doesn't "already exist." I can do the work myself, but it would be a mis-allocation of resources. If I'm a lawyer who bills $100 per hour, but I make all my own copies, do my own courier work, etc..., I'm losing money by doing so. I "create a job" because it is more profitable for me to use my resources to bill $100 an hour, and then pay someone $15, $10, $8 or whatever to do the work that otherwise occupies my time.
Yiu didn't say how far back you want to go.

I was approached by a young man once with an agenda. His question was, "Don't you want to go back to the Constitution as the founding fathers wrote it?" (Trick question - without the admendents of course.) Give up my right to vote? Not on your life!

It took until 1920 to get that little bit of fairness taken care of.

But that's the way it was in the good ole days.
quote:
I was approached by a young man once with an agenda. His question was, "Don't you want to go back to the Constitution as the founding fathers wrote it?" (Trick question - without the admendents of course.) Give up my right to vote? Not on your life!

It took until 1920 to get that little bit of fairness taken care of.


The Constitution, as written by the Founding Fathers, did not deny women the right to vote.

Article 1 - Section 4

quote:
The times, places, and manner of holding elections for Senators and Representatives shall be prescribed in each state by the Legislature thereof;...


So, each state was allowed to decide how to elect their representatives. As for electing the president:

Article 2 - Section 1

quote:
Each State shall appoint, in such a manner as the Legislature thereof may direct,a number of Electors...

...The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for two persons...


The state legislatures could decide how to determine the Electors, who then elected the President and Vice-President.

As it were, no states allowed women to be involved in the process, but that had nothing to do with the Constitution. The 19th Amendment, passed by meddling progressives in 1920, denied the States' the right to decide for themselves.

The 15th Amendment prohibited states from denying the right to vote based on race. The 24th Amendment prohibited them from denying the right to vote based on failure to pay a poll tax. The 26th Amendment prohibited them from denying the right based on age, provided the eligible voter was at least 18. All these Amendments prohibit the denial of voting rights, but nowhere in the Constitution is the "right to vote" guaranteed.
All these Amendments prohibit the denial of voting rights, but nowhere in the Constitution is the "right to vote" guaranteed."

That's why we have the Amendments.

quote:
The 19th Amendment, passed by meddling progressives in 1920, denied the States' the right to decide for themselves.


On a practical level, without the 19th amendment women still wouldn't have the right to vote.

You mean the 19th Amendment denied the male voters of each state the right to decide whether women had the right to vote or not.
People start businesses to make money, sadly few care about workers and see them only as tools to be exploitated to make money then to be disgarded.

Unions protected workers and made sure we had a decent life style and share for our labor, part of what made Ameica.

The workers built this country, giving working people a fair share for their labor would be a way to return to values that helped make this a great country.

Eqaulity in rights also.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
People start businesses to make money, sadly few care about workers and see them only as tools to be exploitated to make money then to be disgarded.

Unions protected workers and made sure we had a decent life style and share for our labor, part of what made Ameica.

The workers built this country, giving working people a fair share for their labor would be a way to return to values that helped make this a great country.

Eqaulity in rights also.


The value of muscle is limited, the value of the mind is not.

Workers are a resource to be utilized, exploitation implies misuse, and misuse of any resource is foolish and bad business. To "give working people a fair share" for their labor? Do they not enter into employment freely? At an agreed upon wage? Yet you seem to feel an employer owes more that a fair wage for a fair day's labor. Why? An employer is absolutely free to give away more than what is EARNED, but is in NO WAY obligated to do so. Any employee who expects the employer to pay more than the worth of the labor done is foolish and envious.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
Even though I grew up in New York City and New Jersery we still valued the "Andy Griffith Show," but it wasn't the only show that inspired us either.

Our individualism was encouraged as well as our untiy as a people. We have been split between Liberal and Conservatives and pitted against each other.

I agree that while we lived the good life our government was lying to us and overthrowing governments and supporting repression and torture around the world but decided not to go there for the sake of a "civil" conversation.

If you watch YouTube video's and such you see our culture is dead and the rest of the world is moving on.

I believe a lot has to do with the demise of unions and decent living wages as well as Corporate domination of our lives.

What it would take to go back would be to stop fighting among each other and work to help each other lives a decent standard of living.


New York and New Jersey? I knew you weren't from the Shoals, why didn't you just say so in the first place?

So now only one last question remains, why post here if you've never been to the Shoals?

For the rest of your post, you say "I agree that while we lived the good life our government was lying to us and overthrowing governments and supporting repression and torture around the world but decided not to go there for the sake of a "civil" conversation."

This is the same government that you insist should be in charge of your health care. You want them to make the life or death decisions for you, to employ your doctors, nurses, and own the hospitals. Why would you trust a government that you know lies to you to take care of you?

Our culture is not dead, there is a very strong and diverse American culture. That culture comes from living in a free society where government has it's limits and people have the right to own and keep what they earn. That's why it's called the "Land of Opportunity", people are free to pursue their dreams and opportunity without government oppression.

I'm not a big fan of huge corporations either, but when given a choice between having a country filled with thousands of corporations competing against each other or one single government owning every thing and everyone as in a socialist society, I'll take the corporations.
quote:
People start businesses to make money, sadly few care about workers and see them only as tools to be exploitated to make money then to be disgarded.


Are business owners not workers as well?

I've produced a lot of commercials for a variety of different businesses. I can tell you from personal, first hand experience, business owners work their butts off and the ones I've dealt with cared very much for their employees.

I've also produced commercials for a business owned by former employees of a large corporation. They didn't like how they were treated, so they left and started their own business. They're working very hard and doing very well. They have one of the best auto repair shops in the area and they're cheaper than dealerships. They provide a cheaper and higher quality alternative to a big corporation. If they were in a union, they would have never started their business and that cheaper option would not exist.

You can quote your socialist dogma all you want, but I've been in the real world and seen how things really are with my own eyes. The things you describe and the things I actually see are completely different.
There may have been a time in history where unions were a good thing and actually helped the workers. That time is no more. Unions now are interested in one thing and one thing only, MONEY. Most union employees would be better off without giving whatever % the union demands from them. Look at how many jobs we've lost to overseas because of this greed.
Unions might have a role for ensuring their members increase knowledge and skills. Thus, ensuring their members are most likely to be of more value than non-union workers.

How that knowledge is gained, by employer expense or union expense if worthy of negotiation. However, stultifying work rules and long strikes are not where unions should be.
I said I grew up in New York City and New Jersey, I didn't say I am from there now. And I have mentioned it before even stating my brother went to Alabama State Collage.

Workers not only provide "muscle" they provide skills. Unions were crippled by jobs moving over seas and Trade Agreements like NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO).

Unions protected the workers and helped provide a decent wage for their labor. We are now pitted against sweatshop labor under repressive or authoritarian governments as to who will work for the least and give up the most and what country will give the most tax breaks and exemptions from environmental laws.

I believe a step in reuniting Americans and restablishing the "old America" is to provide a solid and safe environment for working people and rebuilding the middle class.

Today we need International Unions.
Pogo-

Serious question - Do you believe that falling prices benefit consumers and improve their purchasing power?

quote:
Unions protected the workers and helped provide a decent wage for their labor. We are now pitted against sweatshop labor under repressive or authoritarian governments as to who will work for the least and give up the most and what country will give the most tax breaks and exemptions from environmental laws.


Unions are beneficial when they correct information asymmetry. Constantly forcing wages upward, even in the absence of increased productivity, does nothing to benefit the economy or society. In fact, these "horrible" labor conditions in foreign countries has been demonstrated to improve quality of life for the country's residents.

Here, uber-liberal Paul Krugman actually DEFENDS low wages in foreign countries, and shows their benefits.

Paul Krugman Article

Highlights:

quote:
After all, global poverty is not something recently invented for the benefit of multinational corporations. Let's turn the clock back to the Third World as it was only two decades ago (and still is, in many countries). In those days, although the rapid economic growth of a handful of small Asian nations had started to attract attention, developing countries like Indonesia or Bangladesh were still mainly what they had always been: exporters of raw materials, importers of manufactures. Inefficient manufacturing sectors served their domestic markets, sheltered behind import quotas, but generated few jobs. Meanwhile, population pressure pushed desperate peasants into cultivating ever more marginal land or seeking a livelihood in any way possible--such as homesteading on a mountain of garbage.


quote:
The benefits of export-led economic growth to the mass of people in the newly industrializing economies are not a matter of conjecture. A country like Indonesia is still so poor that progress can be measured in terms of how much the average person gets to eat; since 1970, per capita intake has risen from less than 2,100 to more than 2,800 calories a day. A shocking one-third of young children are still malnourished--but in 1975, the fraction was more than half. Similar improvements can be seen throughout the Pacific Rim, and even in places like Bangladesh. These improvements have not taken place because well-meaning people in the West have done anything to help--foreign aid, never large, has lately shrunk to virtually nothing. Nor is it the result of the benign policies of national governments, which are as callous and corrupt as ever. It is the indirect and unintended result of the actions of soulless multinationals and rapacious local entrepreneurs, whose only concern was to take advantage of the profit opportunities offered by cheap labor. It is not an edifying spectacle; but no matter how base the motives of those involved, the result has been to move hundreds of millions of people from abject poverty to something still awful but nonetheless significantly better.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
I said I grew up in New York City and New Jersey, I didn't say I am from there now. And I have mentioned it before even stating my brother went to Alabama State Collage.

Workers not only provide "muscle" they provide skills. Unions were crippled by jobs moving over seas and Trade Agreements like NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO).

Unions protected the workers and helped provide a decent wage for their labor. We are now pitted against sweatshop labor under repressive or authoritarian governments as to who will work for the least and give up the most and what country will give the most tax breaks and exemptions from environmental laws.

I believe a step in reuniting Americans and restablishing the "old America" is to provide a solid and safe environment for working people and rebuilding the middle class.

Today we need International Unions.


Alabama State is in Montgomery. That's no where near the Shoals and does not disprove my claim that you've never stepped foot there.

Unions were crippled by corruption and by the thugs that took them over.

Like I said, your socialist propaganda falls flat compared to real world examples. International unions are guaranteed to be corrupt. Small businesses employ the majority of workers in this country. If you want to destroy them, international unions are the way to do it.

Pogo, a simple and direct question, please provide an answer. Do you want to eliminate small businesses?
Sure, I shop all around - even on the net.

However, I have always been a reliable supporter of my neighborhood's small businesses - for decades. Yes, the cost is greater, but they important for my community,

They do offer many advantages not avaiilable in the mega stores like they know me by name, give special personalized services, etc.

How many who pay lip service to saving the small businesses actually pay up at the check out counter?
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NashBama

Alabama State is in Montgomery. That's no where near the Shoals and does not disprove my claim that you've never stepped foot there.

Unions were crippled by corruption and by the thugs that took them over.

Like I said, your socialist propaganda falls flat compared to real world examples. International unions are guaranteed to be corrupt. Small businesses employ the majority of workers in this country. If you want to destroy them, international unions are the way to do it.

Pogo, a simple and direct question, please provide an answer. Do you want to eliminate small businesses?

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A number of Unions were corrupted but so is the US Congress and Wall Street.

We just experienced a "real world examples" with the latest crash of Capitalism. Unions are not corrupt now and oversight and real democracy can help prevent that. An Honest Media also can keep them honest instead of a Corporate Media who's motives are also corrupt.

Corporate Globalization has been destroying small businesses, I work in a small business and it gets tougher every year to compete. Even in the Shoals area.

You think it's fair the American worker should lose their jobs so a company can send it's work overseas and use sweatshop labor?
Or American workers have to compete with sweatshop labor?

It's been destroying America right now if you want "real world examples."
quote:
A number of Unions were corrupted but so is the US Congress and Wall Street.

We just experienced a "real world examples" with the latest crash of Capitalism. Unions are not corrupt now and oversight and real democracy can help prevent that. An Honest Media also can keep them honest instead of a Corporate Media who's motives are also corrupt.

Corporate Globalization has been destroying small businesses, I work in a small business and it gets tougher every year to compete. Even in the Shoals area.

You think it's fair the American worker should lose their jobs so a company can send it's work overseas and use sweatshop labor?
Or American workers have to compete with sweatshop labor?

It's been destroying America right now if you want "real world examples."


As usual, you avoid a direct question. Here it is one more time.

Do you want to eliminate small businesses?

Unions are still corrupt, this problem has never been solved. Unions worked before there were fair labor laws, but now that there are regulations in place to protect employees, unions actually hurt businesses. Small businesses couldn't operate if they were forced to hire within a union.

Unions also prevent employees from advancing within their jobs. Employees are limited to what they can do by the union contracts. They can't cross train, help people with other jobs, or do more than their job demands in order to get ahead. The reality is that unions actually pressure employees not to make others look bad.

Productivity is limited and wages are over inflated, so union made products become more expensive. So companies will either move manufacturing overseas for cheap labor or hire illegal aliens in this country. The result is that unions cost Americans' their jobs under the scam that they are protecting "workers' rights". The reality is union officials get rich off dues while destroying companies or driving them out of the country.

So your problem with foreign sweatshops could be eliminated by getting rid of the unions. Allowing each American employee to negotiate their own pay based on their own skills and the freedom to either move up in that company or move on to the competitor for more money. Competition increases pay, not bully tactics.

I've given you real world examples that prove your socialist statements wrong. As I've said before, you can keep repeating the propaganda all you want, reality trumps it.
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NashBama:

As usual, you avoid a direct question. Here it is one more time.

Do you want to eliminate small businesses?

Unions are still corrupt, this problem has never been solved. Unions worked before there were fair labor laws, but now that there are regulations in place to protect employees, unions actually hurt businesses. Small businesses couldn't operate if they were forced to hire within a union.

Unions also prevent employees from advancing within their jobs. Employees are limited to what they can do by the union contracts. They can't cross train, help people with other jobs, or do more than their job demands in order to get ahead. The reality is that unions actually pressure employees not to make others look bad.

Productivity is limited and wages are over inflated, so union made products become more expensive. So companies will either move manufacturing overseas for cheap labor or hire illegal aliens in this country. The result is that unions cost Americans' their jobs under the scam that they are protecting "workers' rights". The reality is union officials get rich off dues while destroying companies or driving them out of the country.

So your problem with foreign sweatshops could be eliminated by getting rid of the unions. Allowing each American employee to negotiate their own pay based on their own skills and the freedom to either move up in that company or move on to the competitor for more money. Competition increases pay, not bully tactics.

I've given you real world examples that prove your socialist statements wrong. As I've said before, you can keep repeating the propaganda all you want, reality trumps it.

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I think the kindest thing I can say about your post is your idea of what unions are is warped and not based in reality.

People do advance and there is no need for cross training because there are enough workers to train new people. I have worked in union businesses. It's ridiculous what you say. Productivity is not limitd and wages are fair, not inflated.

Companies moved overseas to increase profits or now because they can't compete with sweatshop labor, that's the biggest problem. They use unions as a scapegoat. It's why we have an such a large wealth gap between the very wealthy and the rest of us.

Do you think it's fair for businesses to move overseas to increase profits or American workers having to compete with sweatshop Labor?

Ask a worker who lost his job to out sourcing if he was over paid and under worked? It's just propaganda.

Most of these countries they move to have corrupt and repressive or authoritarian governments. That's why there are no unions.

If Capital can go international so can unions.

I realize you have such a warped and brain washed view I see I should answer your question directly . Of course I am for small buinesses, I work in one, I have told you a number of times, including my previous post. And we have no union or pension.

I oppose huge Corporations but would not limit growth of a company but believe the small business needs to be protected as do workers.

Socialism doesn't prevent productivity or advancement. It protects the people with a safety net and ensures we have an equal chance to our rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Third and final time to ask. You've avoided this question twice already.

Do you want to eliminate small businesses?

quote:
People do advance and there is no need for cross training because there are enough workers to train new people. I have worked in union businesses. It's ridiculous what you say. Productivity is not limitd and wages are fair, not inflated.


Cross training is a good thing. The more versatile an employee is, the more likely they can not only move up in their current company, but they can also find employment somewhere else. Like my dad always said, the more you learn the more you earn. If workers aren't allowed to cross train because of their unions, they are held back. Your response proves my point.

quote:
Companies moved overseas to increase profits or now because they can't compete with sweatshop labor, that's the biggest problem. They use unions as a scapegoat. It's why we have an such a large wealth gap between the very wealthy and the rest of us.


What's wrong with trying to increase profits? Why else would a business even exist?

Sweatshop labor usually produces a lower quality of product. Not to mention the cost of transporting the products from overseas to the markets here. However, if unions demand more money for a position than it's worth, refuse to allow companies to get rid of unproductive employees, and force the companies to provide an unfair amount of benefits, the companies have two choices.

A: Raise the cost of the goods to cover the high cost of production, but pricing it out of the target consumer's price range, meaning they won't sell.
B: Use cheaper foreign labor and ship the good back to the US, but price them lower so that consumers can afford them.

The best option would be C. No unions. Skilled employees chose among competing companies for the best offer. Companies have to pay employees enough so that they won't leave for the competition. Prices stay at a steady place where the goods can sell, productivity stays high, and everyone makes money. That's how capitalism works.

quote:
Ask a worker who lost his job to out sourcing if he was over paid and under worked? It's just propaganda.


You're talking to a worker who lost a job to outsourcing. I was working in a factory that was closed down and moved to Canada because the labor was cheaper. We had to train our Canadian replacements. Then we cleaned the building after everything was shipped out, I got a severance package and that was that.

Do you know what I did? I got another job, finished college, and got a better job making more money. I'm in control of my own life. I don't need a union or government to take care of me. I'm living proof that you're wrong.

Of course you think I'm brainwashed, you're view of the world comes from "The Socialist" magazine. My view of the world comes from being in it. You're not going to believe a word I say and I don't expect you to. My goal is to disprove your socialist propaganda with real life examples. I've done just that.
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Companies moved overseas to increase profits or now because they can't compete with sweatshop labor, that's the biggest problem. They use unions as a scapegoat. It's why we have an such a large wealth gap between the very wealthy and the rest of us.


It isn't a scapegoat, it's the main reason. Why would anyone choose less profit when more profit is an option? These foreign jobs you hate so much, as I have already shown, are a better alternative to foreign workers than what they face without the job. No one takes a job that isn't an improvement over their current working conditions.

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Do you think it's fair for businesses to move overseas to increase profits or American workers having to compete with sweatshop Labor?


Yes, it is perfectly fair. Foreign labor receives a higher wage than they would have otherwise. The company receives more profit than they would have otherwise.

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Most of these countries they move to have corrupt and repressive or authoritarian governments. That's why there are no unions.


We have a corrupt and repressive authoritarian government. What's your point?

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If Capital can go international so can unions.


I have no problem with this. They will lose jobs, but that's their choice.

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Socialism doesn't prevent productivity or advancement.


No, that's exactly what it does.

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It protects the people with a safety net and ensures we have an equal chance to our rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


What a nice platitude. Unfortunately, it's completely false.

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