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To the original question:

1-realize (and live like) the acquisition of money, things and "fame" (or whatever passes for it) are not the be all and end all of human existence.
2-stop being an empire and be a republic
3-make national defense actual national defense
4-be open to, as G. Washington admonished, trade and friendship with any willing nation but otherwise leave others to live their lives as they want. Not isolationism. Non-interventionism.
5-treat tax money as if it had to be worked for to be obtained
6-if someone needs help, make sure they get it
7-live and let live
quote:
Originally posted by dogsoldier0513:
What would it take to put America back where She needs to be in regards to the ideals She once possessed and projected to the rest of the world?

I am requesting a CIVIL debate, please.


All though I have a great belief in the idea of this country, I don't think we'll ever get back to those ideals...not as a "country/nation". Actually I think that is one the biggest causes to our problems today...thinking we are a "Nation". ***WARNING SLIGHT SARCASM*** As Ben Gates (played by Nicolos Cage) in "National Treasure: Book Of Secrets" put it, before the Civil War we said "The United States are"(plural)...after the war "The United States" is.

In the movie this was refered to fondly, but as our independent states lost their sovereignty, we as individuals have lost the right of self government.

But what would get us back...well the Principles of '98...that would be 1798. Thomas Jefferson said the 10th Amendment was the cornerston of the Constitution.

Principles of '98http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Vcjm3XiOk

And it's also encouraging to see young adults gettin the message:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofx-Qjp3cjs
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declared so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.....But just passs the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law- breakers-and then you cash in on guilt." Dr. Ferris.

Sounds familiar.
Renegade Nation

[quote]All though I have a great belief in the idea of this country, I don't think we'll ever get back to those ideals...not as a "country/nation".

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I believe the post was to return to the days of "The Andy Griffith Show" and not 1776 although the intent may have been there I took the post to mean a simpler time and not a country at war with itself, not so much states rights.

I believe if the workers united we would find we have more in common then in differences.

There is a great song by country singer Tracy Lawerence that talks about this, "When Daddy was a Strong Man and Momma was a Blonde." A simpler time when you could trust people and we more united. As I have said I grew up in the North and it was the same.
quote:
Originally posted by 8I:
We could start by actually following the Constitution.

Elect Ron Paul.

Reel in warfare and welfare.

Live within our means.

Get back to sound money, like a gold standard.

I could go on....


You know, just like with Ron Paul, you had me going there: yes! yes! Then WTF!?! Gold Standard? Bat spit crazy.
quote:
Originally posted by NeeboChukie:
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declared so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.....But just passs the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted-and you create a nation of law- breakers-and then you cash in on guilt." Dr. Ferris.

Sounds familiar.


Sounds like Dr. Floyd Ferris, Director of the State Science Institute, subjectivist extraordinaire...
Directive 10-289

"In the name of the general welfare,to protect the people's security, to achieve full equality and total stability, it is decreed for the duration of the national emergency that--

"Point One. All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail. The penalty shall be determined by the Unification Board, such Board to be appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources. All persons reaching the age of twenty-one shall report to the Unification Board, which shall assign them to where, in its opinion, their services will best serve the interests of the nation.

"Point Two. All industrial, commercial, manufacturing and business establishments of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth remain in operation, and the owners of such establishments shall not quit nor leave nor retire, nor close, sell or transfer their business, under penalty of the nationalization of their establishment and of any and all of their property.

"Point Three. All patents and copyrights, pertaining to any devices, inventions, formulas, processes and works of any nature whatsoever, shall be turned over to the nation as a patriotic emergency gift by means of Gift Certificates to be signed voluntarily by the owners of all such patents and copyrights. The Unification Board shall then license the use of such patents and copyrights to all applicants, equally and without discrimination, for the purpose of eliminating monopolistic practices, discarding obsolete products and making the best available to the whole nation. No trademarks, brand names or copyrighted titles shall be used. Every formerly patented product shall be known by a new name and sold by all manufacturers under the same name, such name to be selected by the Unification Board. All private trademarks and brand names are hereby abolished.

"Point Four. No new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever, not now on the market, shall be produced, invented, manufactured or sold after the date of this directive. The Office of Patents and Copyrights is hereby suspended.

"Point Five. Every establishment, concern, corporation or person engaged in production of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth produce the same amount of goods per year as it, they or he produced during the Basic Year, no more and no less. The year to be known as the Basic or Yardstick Year is to be the year ending on the date of this directive. Over or under production shall be fined, such fines to be determined by the Unification Board.

"Point Six. Every person of any age, sex, class or income, shall henceforth spend the same amount of money on the purchase of goods per year as he or she spent during the Basic Year, no more and no less. Over or under purchasing shall be fined, such fines to be determined by the Unification Board.

"Point Seven. All wages, prices, salaries, dividends, profits, interest rates and forms of income of any nature whatsoever, shall be frozen at their present figures, as of the date of this directive.

"Point Eight. All cases arising from and rules not specifically provided for in this directive, shall be settled and determined by the Unification Board, whose decisions will be final."
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CrustyMac

quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
It projected liberalism, individualism, freedom and a sense of risqueness as well as honest values which I believe were swallowed and destroyed by Corporatism and anything for the Bottom Line.

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So you want to take us back to the Roaring 20's

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I think almost anytime, with a few exceptions, then what we have now and where we are heading.
An Owner should get a Fair Share for their Labor. It's why we need Unions to Collectively Bargain for workers rights.

Co-op's are the best. Owner or manager, supervisor are all important to make a business run.

I have told you, I work in a small business and I started as a laborer and am now in management. I see the need and resposibilities of all.
quote:
An Owner should get a Fair Share for their Labor. It's why we need Unions to Collectively Bargain for workers rights.

Co-op's are the best. Owner or manager, supervisor are all important to make a business run.

I have told you, I work in a small business and I started as a laborer and am now in management. I see the need and resposibilities of all.


Define "fare share".

Let's say for example that a small business makes a profit of $5,000 for the month. This is after all expenses, including pay roll. The business consists of the owner, a manager, two guys in production, and one guy who cleans up the building.

Of the $5,000, what would be the business owner's "fair share"?
The American people did help make us great in WW2. Every one had a single goal in mind, defeating the Japs and nazis. In todays world many take the side of the terrorist. If we all had the goal of killing terrorist that want to kill us, it would be a step towards the return of this country to greatness. Instead we have folks that want to give the terrorist the same rights as the people they are trying to kill.
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:


What's the business owner's fair share for his labor?


Back in the late '60's when I started working, a CEO 's pay was roughly equal to 40 times the average wage of the workers.
Seems I heard recently that today the CEO's pay is roughly equal to 400 times the average wage of his workers.
Being a progressive, I don't really want to be referring to "the good old days" but 40X seems fair to me, 400x is just plain greed !
Someone else on here said something about don't you think the business owner should get more so he can plow it back into the business.
Apples and oranges. If you know anything about business , if they are smart, business owners are on a salary plus bonus. They don't just take the income of the business and divvy up how much is theirs and how much goes into the business and how much goes to the workers day at a time.
If I agree to work for 10.00 an hour that is my fair wage, I agreed to it. If I want to make more money I have to be worth more money, produce more and better work. Will some ceo's take advantage of this? Probably, but the option is yours to take your skills or whatever to another job site. Improve yourself, don't expect your employer to do it for you. Many of us only do enough to not get fired yet we still expect a raise.
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mad Ameican

[quote]The American people did help make us great in WW2. Every one had a single goal in mind, defeating the Japs and nazis. In todays world many take the side of the terrorist. If we all had the goal of killing terrorist that want to kill us, it would be a step towards the return of this country to greatness. Instead we have folks that want to give the terrorist the same rights as the people they are trying to kill.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The war is a lie, we are after control of the resources and the "terrorists" are trying to drive us out of their land.

No one is sideing with the terrorists, only questioning the motives of the war and lookong behind the propaganda we are fed.
quote:
Originally posted by mad American:
... What resources are in Afghanistan?

'Ever heard of the Trans Afghanistan Pipeline Project? But, nah, that couldn't have anything to do with it. Better just to wrap it in freedom and evil doer extermination.
quote:
I believe that if our Soldiers weren't killing terrorist in Iraq and Afghanistan we would be dodging their bombs here. Thanks to some brave people we do not yet know that fear.

Then it seems you have dutifully consumed the kool aid.
The soldiers in Iraq and Afghansitan are only making more enemies and life more dangerous for us.

It is global dominance and resources we are after and why we are in Yeman and Somaila and why we are building AFRICOM.

Empires have fought over resources and dominance throughout
History and today is no different.

Al Qaeda and "terrorists" are real but are small in number and simple police work and International Cooperation already dentented their leadership.

Our armies are making enemies who are rallying to drive the West from the region.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
If we had full employment that would be one thing, but we don't. Unions are just a number of workers getting together to set a fair wage for everyone.


If that's what "unions" are, that would be one thing...but "unions"...especially the unions we have today are far from the simple workers getting together. They are a group of power connected elite that have government sactioned extortion methods as their "collective bargining".

Ever noticed that the true enemy of a "union" is not greedy companies or government...the true ememy of a "union" is the non-unionized worker.
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
The soldiers in Iraq and Afghansitan are only making more enemies and life more dangerous for us.

It is global dominance and resources we are after and why we are in Yeman and Somaila and why we are building AFRICOM.

Empires have fought over resources and dominance throughout
History and today is no different.

Al Qaeda and "terrorists" are real but are small in number and simple police work and International Cooperation already dentented their leadership.

Our armies are making enemies who are rallying to drive the West from the region.


You claimed we were building permanent bases for the US military in Iraq. I still await the location of these bases, which you've refused to give, if they exist anywhere outside you imaigination.

Our soldiers are leaving Iraq, in case, you haven't noticed.

How would such police forces be inserted into hostile territory? Where would they be based? How would intel be gathered so the police forced would know where to go?
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
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mad Ameican

[quote]The American people did help make us great in WW2. Every one had a single goal in mind, defeating the Japs and nazis. In todays world many take the side of the terrorist. If we all had the goal of killing terrorist that want to kill us, it would be a step towards the return of this country to greatness. Instead we have folks that want to give the terrorist the same rights as the people they are trying to kill.

_________________________________________________________________

The war is a lie, we are after control of the resources and the "terrorists" are trying to drive us out of their land.

No one is sideing with the terrorists, only questioning the motives of the war and lookong behind the propaganda we are fed.


I've shown there is no control of resources -- oil in Iraq's case, several times. You've yet to prove your case, once!
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo142:
If we had full employment that would be one thing, but we don't. Unions are just a number of workers getting together to set a fair wage for everyone.


If that's what "unions" are, that would be one thing...but "unions"...especially the unions we have today are far from the simple workers getting together. They are a group of power connected elite that have government sactioned extortion methods as their "collective bargining".

Ever noticed that the true enemy of a "union" is not greedy companies or government...the true ememy of a "union" is the non-unionized worker.


Now, more than ever, unions exist to serve management -- union management! The labor lords are the one who truly profit!
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
The trans-Afghanistan pipeline project was considered, but long since abandoned. It would go thru some of the most lawless territory in the world. Even before the jehadim were rampant.

Stalled, but not abandoned. In April 2008, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan signed a framework agreement to buy natural gas from Turkmenistan. It is in a holding pattern, awaiting stabilization of the region.
But wait, that'd be crazy to try to stabilize the region. Besides, there's no money to be made that way.
So... sorry, never mind. We're there for justice, peace and democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by jefft:
quote:
Originally posted by interventor12:
The trans-Afghanistan pipeline project was considered, but long since abandoned. It would go thru some of the most lawless territory in the world. Even before the jehadim were rampant.

Stalled, but not abandoned. In April 2008, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan signed a framework agreement to buy natural gas from Turkmenistan. It is in a holding pattern, awaiting stabilization of the region.
But wait, that'd be crazy to try to stabilize the region. Besides, there's no money to be made that way.
So... sorry, never mind. We're there for justice, peace and democracy.


The new version you mentioned, would go thru Iran, as well. Its iffy if they could get investors under those circumstances. At present, Unocal is still not a player. With no US companies, where's the impetus for the US to be involved. Especially, if the NG is going to India and Pakistan, and not the US.

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