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quote:
Originally posted by PBA:
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Originally posted by NashBama:
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Did Jesus do away with anything in the old testament?


Yes, quite a bit. His death is the new covenant, in other words he did away with the old laws and He is the new law. Those who believe that are Christians, those who don't and still follow the Old Testament are Jews.



Nash, Are you church of christ? You have other faiths who think you should go by the Old Testiment besides the Jews. Many still think we should stand by Israel because they think the Jews are God's chosen people and that changed under the new law.

Please, name one church that practices in America that keeps the Old Law. That burns sacrifices, keep the dietary restrictions, do not work/buy/sell on the Sabbath, wear clothing of only one fabric, stone people who disobey The Law, buy and sell into slavery, etc?
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
Originally posted by Joy:


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Lovely work of fiction there, Invex. I am a little confused by your obvious conflict in morality. You criticize those that you would consider repulsive and then proceed to speak in a repulsive manner. Either you are quite confused spiritually or you are a troll.

If you are not a troll, PLEASE tell me that you do not actually approve of this church's actions. They couldn't be more in error if their abject goal was to see how contrary to the Word of God they could act.



You consider my language repulsive? To each his own I guess. I should of said 'in heat'.

No, I don't approve of this group disrupting funerals...never even hinted I did. I do approve of their message though.

The bible says to spread the word...it doesn't say "just leave them alone".

Matthew 28 v 19-20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."


James 1 v 22

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

Not once do I see where the bible says , concerning homosexuality, to "just leave them alone". I do see where it says it is an abomination though.

And don't say it is not your place, it is Gods.

"BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD NOT HEARERS ONLY"

TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS I HAVE COMMANDED.

Wheter or not Phelps is right or wrong, the bible doesn't cover things like that (that I know of). It does say for YOU not to judge them though.

And BTW...the bible says its not for you to judge my morality either.

I am not Christian, Muslim, or anything. My God is not in the book publishing business. That allows for far too many hypocrites.


If you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, why do you choose to live by your interpretation of It's words? Why quote words from a book that your God is not in the business of publishing?

I could quote verses to refute your interpretation of how Christians are treat others, but what's the point? You don't believe their from your God.

You can call my response 'judging' you. I responded to an attack on my character and I questioned the validity of the attack. IMO, it was a conflicting message - naturally, I thought it was bogus. We do have trolls come through from time to time. When people resort to crude insults to further their point, a red flag goes up. If you're cool with that, carry on.

I'm glad that you do not agree with the church's actions.
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If you don't believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, why do you choose to live by your interpretation of It's words?




The Christian bible has many points I agree with.


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Why quote words from a book that your God is not in the business of publishing?



You are the one claiming to be a Christian. I merely showed where your book states opposite your actions.


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I could quote verses to refute your interpretation of how Christians are treat others, but what's the point? You don't believe their from your God.



I'm always willing to learn.


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You can call my response 'judging' you. I responded to an attack on my character and I questioned the validity of the attack.



Thats why I posted the bible quotes.


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IMO, it was a conflicting message - naturally, I thought it was bogus. We do have trolls come through from time to time. When people resort to crude insults to further their point, a red flag goes up. If you're cool with that, carry on



Thats neither here nor there, nothing to do with the subject at hand. I do see the veiled insult though.


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I'm glad that you do not agree with the church's actions.



I believe these people are honestly trying to carry out Gods word according to their belief. Who am I or you to say they are wrong? I do not approve of their methods. There are also many things in the bible I don't approve of either.
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Yes, quite a bit. His death is the new covenant, in other words he did away with the old laws and He is the new law.



Now my turn, can you be more specific. Jesus is quoted as saying...he did not come to abolish any laws, but to see them fulfilled. If his coming fulfilled them, the above quote is worded wrong. He should have stated his coming has fulfilled the old laws. There would be no need for the word abolish.


With wqhat you are saying, Jesus did just that, he abolished the old laws.


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Those who believe that are Christians, those who don't and still follow the Old Testament are Jews.



Do you define Jew as someone that follows the old testament? What about where Jesus says there is but one way and that is through him, Jesus Christ? Are you implying that Jews won't go to heaven?


I am simply asking questions, not trying to put words in your mouth. It is what I get from your statements.
Invex, regarding Christ abolishing / fulfilling The Law:

In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” these words of Jesus are recorded: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).

It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the “Sabbath day” requirement must be operative still, along with perhaps numerous other elements of the Mosaic Law. This assumption is grounded upon a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ did not here suggest that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament record (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). Consider the following points.

Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term “kataluo,” literally meaning to “loose down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14), and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., to “render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.”

It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17. In this context, “abolish” is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “...not to abolish, but to fulfill.” The meaning is this. Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, he revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience, or else imposed a “curse” (see Galatians 3:10,13). In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, as it did before Christ came, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what he came “to do.” On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish what he came to accomplish, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ, and thus remains as a binding legal system for today, then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law. So, yes he came and fulfilled the law and in doing so that law is no longer in force, but rather The Law that he left us with: Love each other. If we do that, then there is no need for DO's and DON'Ts such as the 10 Commandments.

*taken from a variety of sources, not my own words. Although I do agree with them 100%.
Invex...To use scripture with someone that does not see it as truth seems pointless to me, but since you asked so sweetly Wink, here we go.

These people claim to be CHRISTians but they do not act Christ-like. When a prostitute was brought before Jesus to be stoned as the law demanded (along with the man who they conveniently forgot to bring along), Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". What did this tell you about what Jesus thinks of public humiliation? Here are some verses that deal with this subject.

"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

"Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently." Galatians 6:1 <gently being the key word there>

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside." 1 Corinthians 5:12-13

"There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?" James 4:12

You are right about one thing. It's not me that will judge these people for their actions. But I will not condone their actions or their message because they are in error. Being hateful to homosexuals just makes you hateful, not righteous.
@ Joy...

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But I will not condone their actions or their message because they are in error.


Alright...you don't condone phelps. I got that . No hate or nothing mentioned here.


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Being hateful to homosexuals just makes you hateful, not righteous


You do condone homosexuals. The word 'hate' is added here for those that speak against them. Why do you do that?


Of the TWO thing mentioned above...ONE is a clear sin according to the bible. ONE is not...I see which side you are on. I describe people like you as a 'feel good' Christian. The things the bible commands are not always 'feel good' outcomes.
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Originally posted by Invex:
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That is the OLD TESTAMENT, not JESUS. If you want to live under the Old Law then you cannot eat pork or catfish. You can sell your daughter into slavery, and you should kill your neighbor who works on the Sabbath. You can't have it both ways. Either you are under the Old Law or under the Law of Christ. If you are under the Law of Christ - then tell me where Christ speaks out against gays.




Old/New testament. God/Jesus/Holy Ghost...You really don't understand the concept. Its all ONE...you can't pick and choose. Lets see...didn't come to abolish any laws???...


We have not been under the Old Law since the death of Christ. That is why Christians worship on the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath, etc. The old law had been done away totally.
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
@ Joy...

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But I will not condone their actions or their message because they are in error.


Alright...you don't condone phelps. I got that . No hate or nothing mentioned here.

quote:
Being hateful to homosexuals just makes you hateful, not righteous


You do condone homosexuals. The word 'hate' is added here for those that speak against them. Why do you do that?

Of the TWO thing mentioned above...ONE is a clear sin according to the bible. ONE is not...I see which side you are on. I describe people like you as a 'feel good' Christian. The things the bible commands are not always 'feel good' outcomes.


You can describe me any way you want, but that doesn't make it so. Two things mentioned above meaning hate and homosexuality? Hate is a sin. Or were you referring to something else?

There's also no way to infer from my posts that I condone homosexuality. Me thinks you are playing a game - maybe not, but you are an intelligent person and no intelligent person would come to that conclusion in reading my posts.

I gave you what you asked for, Bible verses that refute the actions of this church and their message. If you don't like it, take it up with God.

It most certainly is a hate message. You can't say 'God hates homosexuals' - what is on their sign, their message that you said you approve - and call it anything but hateful. They actually use a different word for homosexuals of course.

quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
No, I don't approve of this group disrupting funerals...never even hinted I did. I do approve of their message though.


Oh, I thought the sign saying "Thank God for dead soldiers" was really thoughtful...I am sure they meant that in a loving way, right? How anyone, regardless of religious affiliation, could approve their message is beyond me.
Last edited by _Joy_
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Huh? I included that part, Invex. Do you think everyone here has been struck dumb and can't read how I quoted you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You may not actually know what Phelps' message is...allow me to direct you to his website. His put his message in his link.



joy, you have resorted to lying. God said...homosexuality is an abomination. I think a little hate is involved there. You team up with the homosexuals...I'm going the other way.

If at any time you think you can Have a conversation without taking my words out of context, I will be here. If all you are going to di is practise deceit, I shall dust my feet of you.
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Do you define Jew as someone that follows the old testament? What about where Jesus says there is but one way and that is through him, Jesus Christ? Are you implying that Jews won't go to heaven?


I didn't imply anything, I made my statement perfectly clear. It's not my place to determine who goes to heaven and who doesn't. I've never said Jews aren't going to heaven and I never will.

The Old Testament references the messiah, the one that will come to save mankind. Christians believe that Jesus is that Messiah and he brought with Him the new way. That's basic Christianity, if you would like a better explanation, I suggest you go to the source.
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
joy, you have resorted to lying. God said...homosexuality is an abomination. I think a little hate is involved there. You team up with the homosexuals...I'm going the other way.

If at any time you think you can Have a conversation without taking my words out of context, I will be here. If all you are going to di is practise deceit, I shall dust my feet of you.


Invex, God said a LOT of things were abominations under the Old Law. The word used for "abomination" is to'ba. It means "that which is forbidden or unclean". The word that people are referring to when they mention gays is arsenokoites. You can look up the word yourself, but it's meaning has never been fully explained. In other words - it is up for interpretation.

As to abominations, the following were also said by GOD in the OLD TESTAMENT to be abominations:
1. Every shepherd was "an abomination" unto the Egyptians (Genesis 46:34). This aversion to shepherds, such as the Hebrews, arose probably from the fact that Upper and Lower Egypt had formerly been held in oppressive subjection by the Hyksos (a tribe of nomad shepherds), who had only recently been expelled, and partly also perhaps from this other fact that the people of Egypt detested the nomadic habits of these wandering shepherds.
2. Pharaoh was so moved by the fourth plague, that while he refused the demand of Moses, he offered a compromise, granting to the Israelites permission to hold their festival and offer their sacrifices in Egypt. This permission could not be accepted, because Moses said they would have to sacrifice "the abomination of the Egyptians" (Exodus 8:26); i.e., the cow or ox, which all the Egyptians held as sacred and so regarded as sacrilegious to kill.
3. In Daniel's prophecies in Daniel 11:31, it is generally interpreted as referring to the fearful calamities that were to fall on the Jews in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, saying "And they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."
4. In his campaign of Hellenization, Antiochus caused an altar to be erected on the altar for burnt-offerings of the Second Temple, on which sacrifices were offered to Jupiter Olympus. (Comp. 1 Maccabees 1:57). Following the wording of Daniel 9:27, this was the abomination of desolation of Jerusalem. In Matthew 24:15, the reference is probably to the image-crowned standards which the Romans set up at the east gate of the temple (A.D. 70), and to which they paid idolatrous homage. "Almost the entire religion of the Roman camp consisted in worshipping the ensign, swearing by the ensign, and in preferring the ensign before all other gods." These ensigns were an "abomination" to the Jews, the "abomination of desolation."
5. Abomination is also used for sin in general (Isaiah 66:3); or an idol (Isaiah 44:19); or adultery (Ezekiel 22:11).
6. Proverbs 6:16 - 18 lists six things which are also abominations: "haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are swift in running to mischief."
7. The word "abomination" is also used in Jewish (and Christian Old Testament) scriptures to refer to homosexual activity (Leviticus 18:22), Leviticus 20:13), idolatry (Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13), cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5), cheating in the market by using rigged weights (Deuteronomy 25:13-19, Proverbs 11:1), and dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22).
8. It is also used for eating seafood that lacks fins and scales (Levitius 11:11), eating certain birds of prey, including bats (Leviticus 11:12) and all insects (Leviticus 11:23 and 11:41) and other biblically unclean animals (Leviticus 20:25); remarrying the person one previously divorced (Deutoronomy 24:4); telling lies (Proverbs 12:22); being proud in heart (Proverbs 16:5); justifying the wicked (Proverbs 17:15); and cheating in business (Proverbs 20:10 and Proverbs 20:23).

So this "church" in Westboro needs to add to their list if they want to be against everything referred to as an "abomination" in the Old Testament.

When Christ came to Earth as a man he fulfilled the Old Testament. So the old law is not The Law that Christians follow. We follow The Law given to us by Christ and that is to simply love each other and love God. That is it. That is the New Law under the New Covenant. Try it, it is pretty simple!
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
Originally posted by Joy:


quote:
Lovely work of fiction there, Invex. I am a little confused by your obvious conflict in morality. You criticize those that you would consider repulsive and then proceed to speak in a repulsive manner. Either you are quite confused spiritually or you are a troll.

If you are not a troll, PLEASE tell me that you do not actually approve of this church's actions. They couldn't be more in error if their abject goal was to see how contrary to the Word of God they could act.



You consider my language repulsive? To each his own I guess. I should of said 'in heat'.

No, I don't approve of this group disrupting funerals...never even hinted I did. I do approve of their message though.

The bible says to spread the word...it doesn't say "just leave them alone".

Matthew 28 v 19-20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."


James 1 v 22

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

Not once do I see where the bible says , concerning homosexuality, to "just leave them alone". I do see where it says it is an abomination though.

And don't say it is not your place, it is Gods.

"BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD NOT HEARERS ONLY"

TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS I HAVE COMMANDED.

Wheter or not Phelps is right or wrong, the bible doesn't cover things like that (that I know of). It does say for YOU not to judge them though.

And BTW...the bible says its not for you to judge my morality either.

I am not Christian, Muslim, or anything. My God is not in the book publishing business. That allows for far too many hypocrites.



Ahhh, you are NOT a Christian. So what does that make you???? The Christian POLICE???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........
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Originally posted by Invex:
quote:
Huh? I included that part, Invex. Do you think everyone here has been struck dumb and can't read how I quoted you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You may not actually know what Phelps' message is...allow me to direct you to his website. His put his message in his link.



joy, you have resorted to lying. God said...homosexuality is an abomination. I think a little hate is involved there. You team up with the homosexuals...I'm going the other way.

If at any time you think you can Have a conversation without taking my words out of context, I will be here. If all you are going to di is practise deceit, I shall dust my feet of you.


One thing I can tell you about all this c r a p, is that Joy is NOT a liar!!!! I have known her for a long time, and to call her a liar makes you look extraordinarily horrid.

Now, I think you are a Troll.
quote:
Originally posted by Invex:
quote:
Huh? I included that part, Invex. Do you think everyone here has been struck dumb and can't read how I quoted you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You may not actually know what Phelps' message is...allow me to direct you to his website. His put his message in his link.



joy, you have resorted to lying. God said...homosexuality is an abomination. I think a little hate is involved there. You team up with the homosexuals...I'm going the other way.

If at any time you think you can Have a conversation without taking my words out of context, I will be here. If all you are going to di is practise deceit, I shall dust my feet of you.


Invex, I have tried to figure out what in the world you are talking about and can't. I quoted your whole statement, which made you look much better than it would have if I had only quoted half of it. If I wanted to deceive, I would have left out the part where you said you did not support this church showing up at funerals. I didn't do that. I have a hard time believing you missed that. So, apparently this is just fun for you. Perhaps you are under the mistaken assumption that this bothers me. It bothers me for your sake maybe, but not for mine. I'm fine.

For what it's worth, I think you are looking at one verse to form your conclusion. If you looked at all the verses on this subject, it may change your conclusion. When Jesus died on the cross, he died for ALL of us. God loved homosexuals enough to let his only son die for them. That's not hate, man.

Thank you, Kindred! Smiler
quote:
One thing I can tell you about all this c r a p, is that Joy is NOT a liar!!!! I have known her for a long time, and to call her a liar makes you look extraordinarily horrid.

Now, I think you are a Troll.



Since I have been coming to this site I have saw you get caught in three different lies. The most recent in the Bill Gray thread.


Now, I know you are a liar!
The light has already been spread...



From the Blue Letter Bible



King James Version (KJV) Romans - Chapter 1

Rom 1:1 ¶ Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,


Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)


Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:


Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Rom 1:8 ¶ First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;


Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.


Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;


Rom 1:12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.


Rom 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.


Rom 1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.


Rom 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.


Rom 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.


Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.


Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,


Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,


Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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