WHEN YOU GET TO ETERNITY

Hi Vic,

 

Just a couple of questions:

 

1.  The Bible tells us, ". . . it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,"  (Hebrews 9:27).  How could this man have died, seen heaven, and then come back to life again -- when the Bible clearly tells us that we will only die ONCE?

 

2.  This man's web site, Spirit Daily, shows him to be Roman Catholic.  Roman Catholics believe that when a person dies -- he goes straight to Purgatory, not to heaven.  So, how could this Roman Catholic have seen inside heaven -- when he was, according to your beliefs, in Purgatory?

 

Just curious.

 

By the way, once again I notice there is not a single word written there by you.  Just a suggestion:  Why don't you change your posting name to Copy/Paste -- which would be a much more accurate image of you and what you do?   Just a thought!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

____________

Nah! His name should be changed to "Satan's Favorite Boy Toy"!!

Hi all,

 

Here we have perfect example of the only defense the Biblically illiterate, atheists, and agnostics have, since they have no facts, or faith, to stand upon:  When feeling lost and hopeless -- start calling the other person or persons derogatory names.  Works every time (at least in their heads) -- IF one happens to be Biblically illiterate, atheist, or agnostic.  And, it works often (again, in their heads only) for those in the vanilla-flavored non-believer room also.

 

In other words -- start throwing everything possible against the wall -- hoping something will stick.

 

Bless their simple little hearts!

 

Bill

-------------------------------------

Good one! Semi....

=====================

OMG, Gray, your old song and dance is so tiresome!

I want to correct one error that was posted above. Catholics believe that when a person dies, they go to either heaven, purgatory, or hell. Not purgatory only, which was stated above! Praised be Jesus forever!

Nathan, I thought the hogs ate you. Anyway billie has been told that many

times but it doesn't fit his pattern of lies. He's what you call, a mind set liar.

 

What do you expect from someone that's been around a foreign language for over 40 years but claims they still can't speak it? One more thing that shows they're not that quick on the uptake.

Hi Nathan,

 

Then, who goes to purgatory?  What degree of perfection does one have to attain in this life, to go straight into heaven?

 

Who would you say is the most perfect Roman Catholic?  I would guess you would say the pope.  If so, why is it that the pope does not know if even he will go to heaven?

 

We read in Scripture:

 

1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

 

1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."

John 20:31, "But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may HAVE life in His name."

 

These all tell me that a true believer can KNOW he/she has eternal life and in other Scripture passages we are told that when the true believer dies -- we will go immediately into the presence of God.

 

So, back to my question:  Who in the Roman Catholic church KNOWS they will go to heaven when they die -- and WHO will go to purgatory?   Where will the pope go upon death?  If you say heaven, why do the popes deny this?  If you say purgatory, why would the spiritual leaders of billions of people -- not go directly into the presence of God?

 

Nathan, do you see the dilemma presented by your unbiblical belief in a purgatory?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

There have been many instances of a medical doctor, or team, pronouncing a person clinically dead -- and that person reviving.   The "near death experiences" would also fall into this category.

 

There is a great difference between a person being pronounced clinically dead by a doctor, a person having a near death experience -- and God pronouncing a person dead.   When God has pronounced a person dead -- NO ONE, since Biblical days, has ever returned to life. 

 

Of course, we know that Christ came back from mortal death.  But, He is God -- and He is omnipotent, all powerful, over life or death.

 

And, we know that in the early church during Christ's earthly ministry -- some were raised from the dead, Lazarus for example.  But, these were part of His teaching, His showing that He is God and that God is omnipotent.  These, like the rest of His teachings were so that we might believe.   Today, we have the Bible, His Written Word, to teach us.  So, there is no need for Old Testament type prophets, or New Testament type miracles such as raising the dead.

 

My Friend, when doctors pronounce you dead -- you still have a slim hope.  When God pronounces you dead -- I pray that you have your house in order -- physically, and more importantly, spiritually -- for there is no coming back.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Hi all,

 

I am not sure which Roman Catholic diocese Vic converted into -- but, I can just picture the good folks in that diocese cringing whenever good old Vic sits at his keyboard, wondering how he will embarrass their church today.

 

Did someone mention that the priests in that church have been calling the local Baptist, Nazarene, Methodist, and other churches in the area -- begging them to take Vic back?   Doesn't take a real stretch of the imagination to envision this truly happening.

 

Bless your silly little old ranting heart!

 

Bill

Earlier it was written:   Who in the Roman Catholic church KNOWS they will go to heaven when they die -- and WHO will go to purgatory?   Where will the pope go upon death?  If you say heaven, why do the popes deny this?  If you say purgatory, why would the spiritual leaders of billions of people -- not go directly into the presence of God?

 

Nathan, do you see the dilemma presented by your unbiblical belief in a purgatory?

 

Answers:  No one in the Catholic church knows who is going to heaven or who is going to purgatory.  God knows.  We do not claim to know things that only God knows.  We believe  that if we persevere to the end, we'll either go to heaven, or make a stop in purgatory on the way to heaven.

 

As for purgatory, show me anything in the bible that denies the existence of purgatory.  I do know that scripture says nothing unclean shall enter, and that our works will be tested by fire.  St. Augustine said that the doctrine of purgatory has been received from the Fathers.  the Bible also distinguishes between those who enter heaven directly, calling them the church of the firstborn (Heb 12:23) and those who enter after having undergone a purgation, calling them the spirits of the just made perfect (also Heb 12:23).  We are commanded to be perfect, as our heavenly Father is perfect.   if there is no purgatory, but only heaven for the perfect and hell for the imperfect, then the vast majority of us are hoping in vain for eternal life in heaven.  Praised be Jesus forever!!!

 

Hi Nathan,

 

You tell me, "Answers:  No one in the Catholic church knows who is going to heaven or who is going to purgatory.  God knows."

 

And, God has told us very clearly:

 

1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

Romans 8:1, "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

These Scripture verses, and many others, clearly tell us that any person who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ -- HAS eternal life.  If one has eternal life -- this means that this person is going to heaven the moment he/she dies or is raptured.

 

You tell me, "No one in the Catholic church knows." 

 

Maybe if the people in the Roman Catholic church, starting with the Pope, would read and study the Bible, instead of Vatican Catechisms -- all of you would know if you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ -- or not.

 

If I could not say for sure that I am going to heaven when I die -- I most certainly would be trying my best to find out -- and to gain that assurance which Jesus Christ promises to all believers.   And, of course, I would start with the Bible.    That would be a great starting place for you and all Roman Catholics.

 

And, you tell me, "As for purgatory, show me anything in the bible that denies the existence of purgatory."

 

Show me ANYTHING in the Bible which even acknowledges, in any way, a purgatory.   And, please do not try to twist 1 Corinthians 3:15 to fit that shoe.  Wrong size!  Wrong style!  Wrong everything -- for it is common knowledge that this Scripture passage found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is speaking of the tribulations a Christian will endure in this life -- as we look forward to eternal life with and in Christ. 

 

We will be tested by the world, we will have our works for the glory of Christ tested by the fire of His Believers' Judgment.  But, when we arrive at the Believers' Judgment (also called Bema Seat Judgment) after the Rapture -- we will already have been assured of eternal life in the presence of God.

 

The only mentions of anything resembling purgatory -- is ONLY found in the Apocrypha.  This is true with many of the Roman Catholic doctrines and teachings.  And, this is why the Roman Catholic church MUST have the Apocrypha.  Without the Apocrypha -- there is no Roman Catholic church!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray

 

You tell me, "No one in the Catholic church knows." 

 

 

billie, in my darkest hour I still had a better chance of Heaven than you

ever had or ever will unless changes are made For You.

 

"Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

 

I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12),

 

Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

 

Hey, Billy Bob.......how does this scripture stand against your OSAS theory?

"Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

 

Thank you for this great question.   Yes, to many that Scripture verse "might" appear to be saying that one can lose their salvation.  But, to truly understand what Paul is writing to the church at Corinth, we need to look a bit deeper.

 

Corinth was a bustling metropolis, one of the centers of commerce and travel in the Roman empire.  And, it had a reputation for being a very immoral city, much like our Las Vegas of today.  So, temptation was abundant.   Paul's letter found in 1 Corinthians addressed two main issues to that local church:  (1) he chastised them for allowing personal preferences between the different Christian teachers -- Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc. -- to cause division among the church fellowship -- reminding them that they should be looking only to Christ for salvation.

 

And, (2) Paul is warning the church at Corinth to avoid the many temptations of the pagan society in which they lived.  Sort of like our liberal secular society in America today.   Paul is warning the people in the church to be alert, be strong in Christ, lest some may be led into temptation -- lest some should "fall" into sin.

 

That is the word, or thought, we should look at in respect to what Paul has written in verse 12, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall."  Falling into sin -- is not the same as losing one's salvation.   We all sin, even the strongest believers.  "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"  (Romans 3:23).    This is why we believers are called "forgiven sinners" -- for, as long as we are in this mortal body, we will sin. 

 

All people have the Adamic curse of a sin nature, all the days of our lives in this mortal body.  We will always have that sin nature inherent within us until the day we die in this mortal body, or the day we are raptured from this mortal body.  Therefore, we can "fall" into sin.

 

That is why the apostle John tells us, in 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

 

That human vulnerability to fall into sin is why we are taught in Ephesians 6:10-20 to daily, first thing every day, put on the Full Armor of God.  In other words, begin each day with prayer and a study of God's Word.  Arm yourself with His protection -- lest you "fall" into sin.

 

Chick, once again, thank you for a very insightful question.  I pray that I have sufficiently answered it for you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill  

Hi Vic,

 

Convinced that you have to work for your salvation, you quote a part of the Scripture verse, "I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12)."

 

But, let's look at that full Scripture passage:

 

Philippians 2:12-13, "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

 

Here, let me share with you from the Philippians 2 written by Pastor David Guzik, past Director of Calvary Chapel College in Germany and currently senior pastor at Calvary Chapel, Santa Barbara:

 

D. Paul’s exhortation to the Philippians.

1. (12) Working out your own salvation.

 

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

 

a. Therefore . . . as you have always obeyed: We should not miss the connection between the obedience Jesus showed (Philippians 2:8) and the obedience Paul expects of the Philippians (Philippians 2:12).

 

b. Work out your own salvation: We know that Paul does not mean “work so as to earn your own salvation.” Such a statement would contradict the whole of Paul’s gospel.

 

c. Work out your own salvation: What Paul does mean is he calls the Philippians to put forth real effort into their Christians lives. This is not to work their salvation in the sense of accomplishing it, but to work out their salvation - to see it evident in every area of their lives, to activate this salvation God freely gave them.

 

i. “The believer must finish, must carry to conclusion, must apply to its fullest consequences what is already given by God in principle . . . He must work out what God in His grace has worked in.” (Muller)

 

ii. “He exhorts as if he were an Arminian in addressing men. He prays as if he were a Calvinist in addressing God and feels no inconsistency in the two attitudes. Paul makes no attempt to reconcile divine sovereignty and human free agency, but boldly proclaims both.” (Robertson)

 

As you can see, we are continuing to work on being closer to God -- not working to gain salvation.  If one is to work to gain salvation -- how will you EVER know when you have worked enough to enter heaven?   There would certainly be no "eternal security" in never knowing if one is going to heaven or not.

 

Let me leave you with a fantastic graphic illustration created by my good Friend, Pastor Freddy Cortez (also Dr. Freddy Cortez, but he prefers to just be called Pastor Freddy).  His illustration of working through our salvation is shown in the graphics below.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

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semi, billie the closet would want you to believe Paul is talking about

every day sin. Paul is talking about salvation.

 

1 Cor 10: 13-14

13 I pray that no temptation may come upon you that is beyond man’s

strength. Not that God will play you false; he will not allow you to be

tempted beyond your powers. With the temptation itself, he will ordain

the issue of it, and enable you to hold your own.

 14 14 Keep far away, then, my well beloved, from idolatry.

 

Paul here looks to the persecutions which were soon to bring Christians

into grave danger of consenting to idolatry. Ans that could hurt your

salvation. At times you might need to read more than a few verses

for a better look.

 

 

Hi Vic, my Friend,

 

Since you believe you have to work for you salvation -- when will you KNOW you have worked ENOUGH to have salvation?   Surely you would not work toward a goal -- without knowing how and when you can attain that goal?  So, my Friend, when will YOU KNOW you have salvation?

 

If you say, "Not until you die" -- what happens if you die prematurely, an accident, murder, etc. -- and have not yet worked enough to have been saved.  In that case, since you have not yet worked ENOUGH to have salvation -- will you go to hell?

 

There are only two choices:  heaven and hell.  If you have not qualified for heaven, the default must be hell. 

 

So, my Friend, where are you in your process of working your way toward salvation?

 

Yes, I know.   Since you have no Biblical answer to my questions -- you will just, once again, call me stupid.  That seems to be the only answer you can give to an honest question.   But, let me ask you this -- if I ask you a question which you cannot answer -- which one of us is stupid?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bill often repeats this error:  Since you believe you have to work for you salvation -- when will you KNOW you have worked ENOUGH to have salvation?  

Catholics do not work for their salvation, it is a gift from God.  But we do know that faith without works is death, and we do know that the sheep and the goats were separated according to their works. 

 

Bill also errors in this statement:  , when will YOU KNOW you have salvation?

 

No one knows.  No one knows how they will respond if they were to be tested like Job.  No one knows how the rest of their life will play out.  No one knows whether they will remain faithful.  Only God knows.  Catholics do not claim to have divine knowledge.  Bill may claim to have divine knowledge, but we Catholics are mere mortals, and do not claim such divine knowledge.

 

And we have shown many times that there are three possibilities when one dies:  heaven, purgatory, or hell.  Bill often says that purgatory is not in the Bible.  Neither is worship on Sunday.  But we worship on Sunday anyway.  Thus all Christians who worship on Sunday affirm that the Bible is not the sole authority.  And the pre-Constantine Church fathers, such as Origen and Tertullian believed and wrote about purgatory.   Praised be Jesus forever!! 

Vic, nathan, describe your idea of heaven.

Hi Nathan,

 

You tell us, "Bill also errors in this statement:  , when will YOU KNOW you have salvation?    No one knows."

 

Yet, the apostle John tells us, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life"  (1 John 5:13).

 

What does he mean by "KNOW that you have eternal life"?   He means that we can KNOW that we have salvation, that we are going to heaven when we die, or are raptured.

 

Now, since John has written this in His Gospel and in his epistles -- for us to KNOW -- how can you and the Roman Catholic church say that, "No one can know"?

 

My Friend, stick to God's Word, the Bible (all 66 books) -- and you cannot go wrong!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

So I should ignore those pesky passages from Paul that say only if you persevere to the end will you be saved?  Maybe I should deny that I have free will and could change my mind?  No thanks, I'll stick to all 73 books of the Bible (the written Word of God) and the Spoken Word of God and get the whole truth.  Praised be Jesus forever!!

And John is also saying the same as Paul. 1 john 5:18 18 We know that no

one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and

the evil one cannot touch him. Satan can't touch Jesus. If we stay away from

sin we will be saved if we are careful.

5:21......21 Children, be on your guard against idols. Yes, be on your guard

          against sin. You could lose your salvation.

 

The chapter also talks about deadly and not deadly sin and how you can

help other people through prayer.

 

Nathan, just thought I'd throw that in for completion. 73 is better than 66.

 

 

Once again, you pull a Scripture verse out of context -- and try to build a theology around it.  Let's look at what Paul has written to Timothy:

 

1 Timothy 4:16, "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

 

On the surface, it could almost be thought that Timothy, the young pastor, was having to preach for his own salvation as well as those in that local church.

 

However, if we look at the whole chapter 4 of 1 Timothy, we find:

 

In verses 1-5, Paul is admonishing Timothy to beware of those coming into the local church and trying to preach false doctrines.  You know, like you come here and toss out false and erroneous Roman Catholic doctrines and teachings.

 

In verses 6-10 is guiding Timothy regarding teaching Godly living to those in the local church.

 

And, in verses 11-16, Paul tells Timothy to teach these things (those shown in the previous verses) and to no allow anyone to look down upon his, Timothy's, youth.   Paul tells him to not neglect the spiritual gifts God has given him -- and to use those gifts to make his teachings fruitful.

 

Paul concludes in verse 16 by telling Timothy:  "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things (those shown in the previous verses), for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself (which Timothy already has)and for those who hear you."

 

Basically, Paul is telling Timothy to be bold in teaching the Word of God -- for that will help those who hear him find salvation and eternal life in Christ.

 

So, what is Timothy to persevere in?  The teaching of the Word to those in the local church which has been assigned to him.  This has absolutely nothing to do with Timothy persevering unto salvation.  He already has salvation; but, like us, he is admonished to "Go. . . Be My witnesses in all the world"  (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

 

Nathan, as Paul admonished Timothy, and all believers -- I, too, am persevering in sharing the Word of God on the different public venues such as this Religion Forum.  So, when you bring in false or erroneous teachings -- I will be here to shine the Light of Biblical Truth upon them.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Vic,

 

Please show where in my last post I mentioned the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." 

 

Once again, you are blowing smoke and throwing something against the wall to see if it will stick.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I think if I look up eisegesis in the dictionary, I'll  find Bill's picture.  this is why interpreting Scripture is best left to the Church founded by Jesus, the Catholic Church!!.  Interpretations like thpose that bill presents is exactly why we have 30,000+ "Christian" denominations today.  Everybody has their own interpretation on Scripture, but no one has authority to interpret.  Jesus gave such authority to Peter and the apostles, who passed it on to the bishops, and so that authority has come to us, with wisdom from the Holy Spirit, down through the ages.  Praised be Jesus forever!!!

 

Hi Nathan, 

 

You accuse me of Eisegesis?  Let's look at a post you made to my article in my Facebook Notes.

 

There you suggest that Matthew 18:17 reads "go to the Church, not the Bible"  -- which is not true.  These are words you made up.

 

This Scripture verse really reads:  "TELL it to the church" -- which is quite different.  One cannot TELL IT to the Bible, unless one is attempting to read a personal bias INTO the Bible, the definition of Eisegesis.

Matthew 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

And, the Apocrypha was not considered Biblical canon, except by the Roman Catholic church.  The Roman Catholic called a council, the Council of Trent in 1546, in their attempt to make the Apocrypha a part of the Bible.

From the Roman Catholic web site:  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01601a.htm --

 

Etymologically, the derivation of Apocrypha is very simple, being from the Greek "apokryphos," hidden, and corresponding to the neuter plural of the adjective. The use of the singular, "Apocryphon," is both legitimate and convenient, when referring to a single work.  When we would attempt to seize the literary sense attaching to the word, the task is not so easy.  It has been employed in various ways by early patristic writers, who have sometimes entirely lost sight of the etymology.  Thus it has the connotation "uncanonical" with some of them.  St. Jerome evidently applied the term to all quasi-scriptural books which in his estimation lay outside the canon of the Bible.

And, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_apocrypha --

 

Catholic and Orthodox Christians regard as fully canonical most of these books called Apocrypha, and their canonicity was explicitly affirmed at the Council of Trent in 1546[10] and Synod of Jerusalem (1672) respectively.  They are called deuterocanonical by Catholics and anagignoskomena by the Orthodox.

 

The Roman Catholic church MUST have the Apocrypha in their Bible -- for that is where they find much of their erroneous, non-Biblical doctrines and teachings.  Without the Apocrypha in your Bible, most of your doctrines and teachings would go away, like a puff of smoke -- the smoke and mirrors the Vatican has been using for centuries to control the masses.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Actually, the apocrypha has always been part of the bible, since the canon was closed in the late 4th/early 5th century. It was noted that St. Jerome originally did want to include those 7 books, but did. That was around 400AD. If i recall correctly, the vatican was established around 1829. The apocrypha are the Word of God! Praised be Jesus forever!

______

Wash your mouth out with soap! You know Billy Bob has the authority.....Satan told him so!

Hi Nathan,

 

You wrote, "It was noted that St. Jerome originally did want to include those 7 books, but did."

 

I would assume you meant to write: "It was noted that St. Jerome originally did NOT want to include those 7 books, but did."

 

Which, according to the history of the Latin Vulgate, is true.  The Pope forced Jerome to add the Apocrypha into the Latin Vulgate, the Bible which became the official Roman Catholic Bible.

 

Why did the Pope force him to add those books?  Because, without the Apocrypha -- there would be no Roman Catholic church.  It would be just another Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, or COC church.

 

You tell me, "If i recall correctly, the vatican was established around 1829."

 

I believe you will find this is a more accurate history of the Vatican:

 

VATICAN CITY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

Vatican City was established as an independent state in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty. . .Vatican City is an ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical state, ruled by the Bishop of Rome -- the Pope.  The highest state functionaries are all Catholic clergymen of various national origins.  It is the sovereign territory of the Holy See (Sancta Sedes) and the location of the Pope's residence, referred to as the Apostolic Palace.  The Popes have generally resided in the area that in 1929 became Vatican City since the return from Avignon in 1377, but have also at times resided in the Quirinal Palace in Rome and elsewhere.

The Vatican obelisk was originally taken by Caligula from Heliopolis, Egypt to decorate the spina of his circus and is thus its last visible remnant.  This area became the site of martyrdom of many Christians after the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. Ancient tradition holds that it was in this circus that Saint Peter was crucified upside-down.

Opposite the circus was a cemetery separated by the Via Cornelia.  Funeral monuments and mausoleums and small tombs as well as altars to pagan gods of all kinds of polytheistic religions were constructed lasting until before the construction of the Constantinian Basilica of St. Peter's in the first half of the 4th century.  Remains of this ancient necropolis were brought to light sporadically during renovations by various popes throughout the centuries increasing in frequency during the Renaissance until it was systematically excavated by orders of Pope Pius XII from 1939 to 1941.

In 326, the first church, the Constantinian basilica, was built over the site that early Catholic apologists (from the first century on) as well as noted Italian archaeologists argue was the tomb of Saint Peter, buried in a common cemetery on the spot.  From then on the area started to become more populated, but mostly only by dwelling houses connected with the activity of St. Peter's.  A palace was constructed near the site of the basilica as early as the 5th century during the pontificate of Pope Symmachus (reigned 498–514).

 

So, yes, we can trace the history of both the Vatican and the Roman Catholic church back to Emperor Constantine, in the 312-326 time period.

 

Whereas, the true church began on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD, when the 120 disciples waiting, as Jesus had instructed them, in the Upper Room -- received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Holy Spirit indwelled, sealed, and empowered them to go forth as Christian believers and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

After the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 disciples, the apostles and all the disciples went into the street of Jerusalem -- preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  And, that day, over 3000 were added to the newly formed church.   That is the true church.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill