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Where Does Jesus Stand On The Abortion Issue?

Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi to my Forum Friends,

As one might expect, with the air intensified by the upcoming presidential election -- the subject of Abortion and Same-Sex Marriage will continue to be hot issues. Recently, I started a discussion titled "Can He Pass The Litmus Test?" -- and, there I stated: JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-LIFE! JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-FAMILY! JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-GOD! And, I asked where Barack Obama stands; can he pass this Litmus Test?

In previous elections, some Friends have told me, "Bill, you should concentrate on sharing the Gospel and stay out of the political arena." If abortion and same-sex marriage had been issues in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry -- does anyone believe He would have avoided addressing those issues? He drove the moneychangers out of the temple; what do you think He would have done to people supporting the killing of 46 million babies each year; 1.5 million babies a year in America alone?

What are the Abortion statistics for the world? We read in http://blowthetrumpet.org/AbortionStatisticsWorldwide.htm -- "In 54 countries (61% of the world population) abortions are legal. In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal. There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted each year, 20 million of them obtained illegally. There are approximately 126,000 abortions performed each day."

We read at http://www.lubbockonline.com/news/edit.htm -- "UNICEF's annual "State of the World's Children," released this week, revealed the stunning statistic that malnutrition kills between 6 million and 7 million children each year, most of them in Asia and Africa" -- and the world is rightly upset. Yet, why do we not hear an outcry from the world about the 46 MILLION babies dying of abortion every year?

My Friend, these are babies we are talking about; creations of God. Can you imagine that every day, every day, 126,000 babies are killed via abortion in our world. We hear many people lamenting the number of children dying of malnutrition -- but, no one laments the much greater number of babies dying of abortion.

I do not believe Jesus would want us to remain silent on this issue; especially in the upcoming presidential election. This is why I feel that I must speak out. If you agree, please share this with your Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors -- all your FRANs. Let us join hands around the world to save the children -- from malnutrition and from abortion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Alabama bred,
California fed,
Blessed by God to be a Christian American!

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Bill,

We will never agree on many issues, but I think I have found one on which we most certainly do. Nutrition for the children already here. Do not let any child go hungry.

Hi Mean,

I completely agree with you that we should be doing everything in our power to help those children who need food, all 6 to 7 million of them.

But, what about the 46 million that die of abortion every year? Should we just ignore the plight of 46 million; while concentrating on only the 6 to 7 million? Why is no one lamenting them. While many are dying of malnutrition; many more are being deprived of life by abortion.

Why not fight to save ALL THE CHILDREN?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
meanasasnakemeanasasnakeOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by meanasasnake:
Bill,

We will never agree on many issues, but I think I have found one on which we most certainly do. Nutrition for the children already here. Do not let any child go hungry.

Hi Mean,

I completely agree with you that we should be doing everything in our power to help those children who need food, all 6 to 7 million of them.

But, what about the 46 million that die of abortion every year? Should we just ignore the plight of 46 million; while concentrating on only the 6 to 7 million? Why is no one lamenting them. While many are dying of malnutrition; many more are being deprived of life by abortion.

Why not fight to save ALL THE CHILDREN?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill,

Where do you get your numbers? There were 4.2 million births in 2007. You are claiming that there were 46 million abortions? That is just a lie. Sorry.
I ILuvSchnauzersEverybody Knows My Name
Saving the children that are improverished and are hungered is great! We need to start this here in our country also. I wish that there were no abortions but I do not judge anyone for making that difficult decesion. (No one knows how the child was created, It could have been mutual sex, incest, rape) Even if it were out-lawed again, individuals would still find ways for it to happen thus setting themselves up for backdoor treatment, if you know what I mean. Woman have found ways for many years prior to Roe vs. Wade to discard unwanted fetus'. Maybe we can start in small steps on the abortion issue. A client comes in and wants an abortion, the first step needs to be mandatory for the client to talk with a counselor (Several times)and with a woman who has previously had an abortion, so they fully know what they are getting into. Sometimes women need someone to listen to them and they are not or can't get that from family members, so I think providing a counselor would be very beneficial. I am not saying that this will prevent any or all future abortions, but it can led a better understanding to a client during a stressful and heart-wrenching time. Also there needs to be group support for women who went through the experience and are having regrets, they need somewhere to go and talk to someone.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi Mean,

You say, "Bill, Where do you get your numbers? There were 4.2 million births in 2007. You are claiming that there were 46 million abortions? That is just a lie. Sorry."

From the web site: http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL11/world_abortion_estimates.htm

I have taken this excerpt:

"Experts" at the World Health Organization (WHO) and the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) claim that there are some 46 million abortions performed in the world each year.

And on this web site: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html#20

You will find these excerpts:

The Incidence of Abortion Worldwide -- January 1999

Approximately 46 million abortions were performed worldwide in 1995 (Table 1). Of these, about 26 million were legal and 20 million illegal.

In our earlier work, we estimated that 43 million abortions (28 million legal and 15 million clandestine) took place in 1987, with a possible range of 36–53 million.

Worldwide, about one-fourth of the approximately 180 million pregnancies known to occur each year are resolved by abortion. Abortions numbered an estimated 46 million in 1995, but given the uncertainty of the data, that number could be as low as 42 million or as high as 50 million. About 35 in every 1,000 women aged 15–44 have an abortion each year.

Mean, I wish this were a lie. I would much rather be a liar than to have this many babies killed by abortion every year. But, I am sorry to say that these organizations have reported these facts.

But, I am happy that you have challenged the numbers -- for many folks might read my post, question the facts, but never say anything. I thank you very much for raising this question; so that everyone will know that this is the horrible truth.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Deep,

So far, on this discussion -- you have not made one intelligent comment. Do you post your cutesy remarks just to see your name in print?

Give it a rest. This has nothing to do with evolution -- it is only about God and children; neither of which you seem to care about.

Go back to playing god in your primodial swamp.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
Hi FirenzeVeritas,

You tell us, "According to the CDC, there were less than 855K legal, induced abortions in the US in 2003, the last year for which statistics are available."

Yet, from these two sources, I find much different statistics:

From the very liberal ABC News web site: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=4151508&page=1

We have the article: Why Abortions Are Down in America, Abortions are Down Across the Country -- but Why? Dated January 17, 2008.

The following excerpt is from that article:

The study, conducted by the Guttmacher Institute, which researches issues related to reproductive health and sexuality, found that in 2005, the U.S. abortion rate fell to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 to 44, the lowest level since 1974. The total number of abortions also declined, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, well below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990.

On PBS Frontline web site: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/clinic/wars/faqs.html From the article, "Abortions In America" I have taken this excerpt:

There were 1.29 million abortions in the U.S. in 2002, the most recent year for which figures are available. Since abortion became legal in 1973, more than 42 million abortions have occurred in the U.S. This statistic of 42 million was up to 2002. Add another six years to that and we will have nearly 50 million babies who have died by abortion -- in America alone.

Regardless of whether it was 850 thousand babies killed -- or 1.3 million babies killed -- both are horrible numbers. Especially when one considers the painful death most of them suffered. Can you imagine that was your child who was killed by immersing it in a vat of acid, i.e., saline solution -- or was killed by having a sharp instrument jabbed into the back of its head so that its brains can be suctioned out? It breaks my heart to think of even one tiny baby dying this way. What about 850 thousand -- or 1.3 million -- a year, in America alone?

No, my Friend, regardless of the number -- those children are still being sacrificed on the altar of the god of recreational sex and fun, Molech.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
Oh, and for any woman (perhaps a victim of incest, rape or, medical problems or a wild Saturday night) who has had to make a difficult "choice" this is public service announcement that Bill is a blow hard anti-intellectual dullard who is blinded by ignorance.

Bill, you are a cruel, cruel man to continually bring this stupid issue up. You have no freaking idea who you may be hurting and literally don't have the balls or mental capacity necessary to comprehend what a women must endure.
Howard RoarkHoward RoarkOld Faithful
Requests for adoptions are over flowing, foreign nations are shutting down their overseas adoptions because so many children were being adopted by mainly US couples. That is not a valid argument.

My own view is outlaw abortions in the last two months, except to save the life of the mother. Then, arrange a caesarean. At that point, its not one person, its two persons occupying the same space. In the first trimester, I have little problem with abortion, as there is not sufficient capacity for mental development -- or the soul, if you wish. See, I once posted my views would tic off both sides of the argument.
M muddytoes20Everybody Knows My Name
quote:
As one might expect, with the air intensified by the upcoming presidential election -- the subject of Abortion and Same-Sex Marriage will continue to be hot issues.



I had a friend who is an elected official at a very high level in this State tell me that Republicans don't want to ban abortion because they need it to drum up the Christian vote every four years. Same goes for same sex marriage.

It must be an election year.

Oh yeah Bill, the person who told me that is a Christian and a deacon in their church.
hoss galhoss galPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Requests for adoptions are over flowing, foreign nations are shutting down their overseas adoptions because so many children were being adopted by mainly US couples. That is not a valid argument.

My own view is outlaw abortions in the last two months, except to save the life of the mother. Then, arrange a caesarean. At that point, its not one person, its two persons occupying the same space. In the first trimester, I have little problem with abortion, as there is not sufficient capacity for mental development -- or the soul, if you wish. See, I once posted my views would tic off both sides of the argument.


i agree 100%, howard. this is a completely reasonable stance.

jesus and everybody else need to butt out of my uterus. abortion should be a legal, safe procedure and it is the decision of the woman who is affected.

i do not agree with optional late-term abortions, because i think any responsible woman can and should make the decision before then. however, to save a woman's life it most certainly should be allowed.
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
Why should Bill's comments be hurtful to women who have had abortions? It's just a fetus isn't it? If indeed it is just a parasitic growth and not a child why have feelings toward it?


For me it's kinda akin to the confederate flag issue. The flag is not a symbol of racism but stupid, toothless, backwoods redneck people have made it so.

Abortion is not "murder" but dimwitted, cruel people like Bill have succeeded in convincing other dimwitted people that it is so. They have succeeded in making guiltless women feel ashamed. A victim of RAPE should not be made to feel ashamed over removing a monster from her body!
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Requests for adoptions are over flowing, foreign nations are shutting down their overseas adoptions because so many children were being adopted by mainly US couples. That is not a valid argument.


Sure it's a valid argument. Bill feels so strongly that women should not abort yet he has done NOTHING but attempt to force his irrational, illogical views upon rational people.

quote:
My own view is outlaw abortions in the last two months, except to save the life of the mother. Then, arrange a caesarean. At that point, its not one person, its two persons occupying the same space.


Cruel and inhuman. At the very least you are suggesting unnecessary elective surgery. At the worst you are, in effect, slicing a woman's belly open as a form of punishment. A scarlet letter carved with a scalpel.

Other than that minor point, our view on abortion are similar. There IS a point where abortion CAN and should be considered "murder." Bill Gray is not the person who should decide that.
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
quote:
Abortion is not "murder"


What is it then? ( . . )Do you have another name for the intentional taking of life?


Do you think that removal of this mass of cells from a uterus is "murder"?

An affirmative answer will demand that you send a woman to prison for the rest of her life for having the procedure done. You are the judge, jury and executioner. What is your verdict?

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CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
Bill, the title of this thread is "Where Does Jesus Stand On The Abortion Issue?"

So where does, er, "did" our man Yahweh stand on the issue? Exactly what did he have to say about it?


One in three or four pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, making God the greatest abortionist of all.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi FirenzeVeritas,


The study, conducted by the Guttmacher Institute, which researches issues related to reproductive health and sexuality, found that in 2005, the U.S. abortion rate fell to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 to 44, the lowest level since 1974. The total number of abortions also declined, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, well below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990.



So what does this article attribute as the cause of the reduction in abortions?
Howard RoarkHoward RoarkOld Faithful
To put a bit of flesh on my statement. Most theologians state the brain is the seat of the soul -- fine. In the first trimester, as I stated, the nervous system and brain are not adequate for the capacity of mental development or a soul.

From the second trimester to the seventh month I honestly don't know the right and wrong of abortion and suspect most others don't, either. My own instincts and religious beliefs favor life.

After the seventh month, physician state there is a fully formed baby capable of life outside the womb. And, experience with premmies holds that statement to be true.

GoFish,

If a woman has stuck it out for seven months without deciding, it's time to tough it out for two months and deliver the child. If, as I stated the mother's physical health or life is endangered, then a caesarean should be considered. There are creams and surgery to remove most of the incision scarring.

As 30 percent of births are now caesarean, how is such a procedure cruel and inhuman. A scarlet letter -- and, a growing belly for seven months wasn't a big red "A?" How less cruel and inhuman is it to rip a child apart, a piece at a time -- limb by limb, a fully formed and cognizant being.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by muddytoes20:
quote:
As one might expect, with the air intensified by the upcoming presidential election -- the subject of Abortion and Same-Sex Marriage will continue to be hot issues.
I had a friend who is an elected official at a very high level in this State tell me that Republicans don't want to ban abortion because they need it to drum up the Christian vote every four years. Same goes for same sex marriage.

It must be an election year.

Oh yeah Bill, the person who told me that is a Christian and a deacon in their church.
Hi Muddy,

Your comment reminds me of a Christian track I wrote some years ago after reading a very interesting book. Here is an excerpt from that tract:

In his book, The Road Unseen, Peter Jenkins tells of a James Robison revival meeting in Mobile, Alabama. Peter was walking across America and writing of his adventures for National Geographic. He was not yet a Christian but for the sake of a "Southern flavored" article he went to the revival meeting.

In his revival meeting message, Robison told the story of an evangelist who walked up to a man in the congregation one evening during a revival meeting. The evangelist put his hands on the man's shoulder and asked him if he wanted to become a Christian. The man practically growled at the evangelist, "I'm a deacon in this church!" And the evangelist calmly said, "Don't let that stand in your way."

My point is: not everyone who wears a baseball cap is a baseball player -- and not everyone who wears a Christian hat is a Christian. Only the fruit tells what kind of tree you are standing beneath.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix Rising:
quote:
Do you think that removal of this mass of cells from a uterus is "murder"?


If this is the mass of cells then yes I believe clearly it is taking the life of another human being


You avoided my question. I posted a picture of a mass of dividing cells that is human. Is it "murder" to remove this mass of cells? Really, it is a yes or no question.
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
Bill, the title of this thread is "Where Does Jesus Stand On The Abortion Issue?"

So where does, er, "did" our man Yahweh stand on the issue? Exactly what did he have to say about it?

Hi Fish,

This is simple to answer. If only you could read, you would have seen the answer in my opening post:

JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-LIFE!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-FAMILY!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-GOD!

Now, y'all come back, ya heah?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
quote:
Originally posted by Howard Roark: Requests for adoptions are over flowing, foreign nations are shutting down their overseas adoptions because so many children were being adopted by mainly US couples. That is not a valid argument.


Sure it's a valid argument. Bill feels so strongly that women should not abort yet he has done NOTHING but attempt to force his irrational, illogical views upon rational people.

quote:
My own view is outlaw abortions in the last two months, except to save the life of the mother. Then, arrange a caesarean. At that point, its not one person, its two persons occupying the same space.


Cruel and inhuman. At the very least you are suggesting unnecessary elective surgery. At the worst you are, in effect, slicing a woman's belly open as a form of punishment. A scarlet letter carved with a scalpel.

Other than that minor point, our view on abortion are similar. There IS a point where abortion CAN and should be considered "murder." Bill Gray is not the person who should decide that.
Hi Fish,

You say that a caesarean birth is, "Cruel and inhuman. At the very least you are suggesting unnecessary elective surgery."

Let me ask you this: Why do people undergo surgery? To save a life, right? So, if a Caesarean can save the life of a baby -- is that so wrong?

My daughter-in-law has had five Caesarean -- which is at least two too many. But, she has given me five beautiful grandchildren, praise be to God. However, I will admit to this; I did tell my son that if he did not get something fixed -- I was going to be accused of being a Jewish father for my next action.

And, my Friend Fish, Bill Gray is not trying to be the person who is deciding. I am only doing my best to make folks aware that there are alternatives to abortion -- and that we certainly do not want a Pro-Abortion president.

However, Fish, if I said the sky was blue -- you would argue -- because there is no way YOU can agree with a Christian. So be it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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M micah_freethinkerFamiliar Face
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
This is simple to answer. If only you could read, you would have seen the answer in my opening post:

JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-LIFE!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-FAMILY!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-GOD!


Hi Bill,

You have made your point that abortion is against Jesus. I would also assume that some people here (such as Phoenix Rising) consider abortion is muder.

What should our government do to the mothers who have abortions?

Best,
Bill GrayBill GrayOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi FirenzeVeritas,


The study, conducted by the Guttmacher Institute, which researches issues related to reproductive health and sexuality, found that in 2005, the U.S. abortion rate fell to 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women between the ages of 15 to 44, the lowest level since 1974. The total number of abortions also declined, to a total of 1.2 million in 2005, well below the all-time high of 1.6 million abortions in 1990.



So what does this article attribute as the cause of the reduction in abortions?

Hi Crusty,

Why not read the article for yourself to find the answer. You can find the link on my previous posts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill
GuffawGuffawOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:
Bill, the title of this thread is "Where Does Jesus Stand On The Abortion Issue?"

So where does, er, "did" our man Yahweh stand on the issue? Exactly what did he have to say about it?

Hi Fish,

This is simple to answer. If only you could read, you would have seen the answer in my opening post:

JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-LIFE!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-FAMILY!
JESUS CHRIST IS PRO-GOD!


Bill,

As usual, you avoided the question. You made the topic heading, not me. I jsut want you to answer your own question. What, exactly, did Jesus have to say about abortion?
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