Hi to all my Forum Friends,
A Christian Forum Friend has critiqued a writing I posted on the TimesDaily Religion Forum last week, titled "Works Equal Salvation? - Or Salvation Equals Works?" And, his comments offer insight. So, I would like to take the time to respond to his critique points.
First, let me say that I am happy that he and I seem to agree on many points within my original post. Now let me attempt to address his comments where we may have a difference of opinion.
Issue 1 -- I wrote:
In the (earlier) "Salvation First - Works To Follow!" discussion, a Forum Friend posted Acts 1:11 and suggested that this Scripture verse supports a "works" salvation. I reply that Acts 1:10-11 speaks (to me) more of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in glory:
And, he replied:
First point, to my knowledge I have never suggested that I believe in a “works” salvation. If I have, let me be clear and state otherwise. Salvation by grace. Please remember, Bill, our discussion started when you implied that I was a “couch potato Christian.” I simply tried to point out to you that I do believe that a Christian should want to work for the Lord and attempted to give you Scripture to show why I felt that way.
My response: I really do not recall calling you specifically a "couch potato" Christian. I looked through the discussion which led to this one, "Salvation First - Works To Follow!" and could not find it there.
In the earlier discussion I began titled "Dialogue With A Preterist Amillennial Forum Friend" where I suggest that reading the writings of other believers might offer nuggets of spiritual nourishment-- you commented to me, "Hi Bill, Acts 1:8, Christ will furnish the nourishment I need, provided I am open to receive it."
And I told him:
Not sure just what you are implying. Are you telling us that you will just sit and wait for the Holy Spirit to instill knowledge of God's Word in you? That you should not study the Bible or read what others know of His Word? Wouldn't that be rather like the folks who tell us, "I know the End Time is here, so I am just going to sit on my couch and wait for Him to come."
Notice that I am not saying you are a "couch potato" Christian. I am only saying that if your intent is to just sit and wait for the Holy Spirit to move you -- would be like the folks who take the position "I am just going to sit on my couch and wait for Him to come."
I did write, in one of our discussions, that I have encountered several Forum Friends who have told me, "If someone asks me about Jesus Christ, I will tell them. If they do not ask, I will not push my beliefs on them."
And, I have called that kind of person a "couch potato" Christian -- for they seem to want to wait for folks to come to them, before they will attempt to evangelize. That is not what Christ has told us in Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15. He told us to "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. Be My witness in all the world."
People with that "sit and wait to be approached" philosophy, I do call "couch potato" Christians. They are most likely saved -- but, they want to keep it all to themselves. That I have compared to "spiritual constipation" -- everything going in, and nothing coming out! But, I don't recall ever thinking of you that way.
Issue 2 -- I wrote:
A good example might be one my Forum Friend raised before, suggesting that James 2:14 supports "works" salvation:
James 2:14, "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"
And, he replied:
Now right here I can kind of understand why you would garner the opinion that I believe in “works” salvation. That is a failure on my part to fully explain my feelings. Even though our discourse originated from, and was a continuation of, your implication that I was a “couch potato Christian.”
Yes, salvation comes from grace. To explain, I was trying to point out what James tells us in chapter two. Simply, by our works we are known to be Christians.
My response: Here, once again, we are in agreement. Your comment, "By our works, we are known to be Christians" is very true. And, I believe, now, that you and I both agree that a person is saved, by grace through faith - plus nothing else. And from that salvation, should flow good works. You, the Biblical writer, James, and I agree on that.
Issue 3 -- I wrote:
James 2:14, "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"
Many folks will read this Scripture verse and declare that it tells us that we are saved by our works. Is that really what James is telling us? No. These are rhetorical questions -- questions to make us think, to lead us into digging for a fuller understanding of that Scripture passage.
I believe James is leading us to ask the question: "Can faith save the person who is not willing to work?" And, the answer has to be, "Yes. But, it will be a faith that is built upon stunted growth, no maturity."
And, he replied:
Agreed. Further, James tells us that “for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” We have not grown as a Christian.
My response: My personal feelings are that our spiritual growth and maturity as Christian believers comes from a combination of Bible study and applying that knowledge to our everyday Christian walk. So, once again, you, James, and I in agreement.
Issue 4 -- I wrote:
And, my Forum Friend responds, "When I read that verse (Acts 1:11) I arrive at a completely different conclusion. Remember we are in the Book of Acts. I understand that there are different mind sets out there concerning the true purpose of this book, but let's just take it on face value: 'The Acts of the Apostles.' "
Here you are reading the word "Acts" as being acts of work. Whereas, most folks view the book of Acts as a history of the "actions" of the growing church body, covering the time period between the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ -- to some time before the execution of the apostle Paul. I would suggest that the book of Acts covers history of the early church for about 30+ years after the Crucifixion of Christ.
And, he replied:
No, no, no, I never stated “acts of works.” I also agree that it is the history of the actions of the growing church and the apostles. I really don’t know how you make that leap to acts of works. I clearly pointed out that there are different mind sets concerning the purpose of Acts. One of which is the view that it is a letter of apology. Another view was it was an attempt to legitimize the Christian belief system. I don’t subscribe to those views.
My response: If I drew the wrong conclusion, I apologize. I came to that conclusion because of your emphasis on "The Acts of the Apostles." Personally, I have never heard those other explanations of the purpose for the writing of the book of Acts. Why would the writer, Luke, be apologizing for being a Christian or for chronicling the actions of the early church? And, no one, other than Jesus Christ and His "once for all time" sacrifice to offer eternal life to all who will receive it -- could, or can, legitimize the Christian faith.
1 Corinthians 3:11, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
Issue 5 -- I wrote:
And, Acts, written by Luke, is considered to be a companion or continuation of the Gospel of Luke. The book focuses on the actions (witnessing and teaching) of the apostles during that 30+ year growth period of the Christian church -- and leaves off with Paul still preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Most Christians see the book of Acts as still continuing today, spanning the entire Christian Church Era. In other words, many feel that we are still living out the continuation of the book of Acts -- which will culminate in the imminent Rapture of the church from earth.
But, the name does not imply, in any way, that salvation is dependent upon or gained through acts of "work." That is proven in Ephesians 2:8-9.
And, he replied:
Agreed. I really don’t know how we have gotten so far into “salvation by works.” Again, my responses were made as a result of your implication that I am a “couch potato Christian.”
My response: I believe we have covered the "couch potato" issue already; that I was explaining what I believe to be a "couch potato" Christian -- rather than implying that phrase describes you. And, you have covered why I drew the conclusion that we were discussing "salvation by works." I can see that we both agree with Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are "saved by grace through faith" in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.
Issue 6 -- I wrote:
Then, my Friend writes, "So when I read (Acts 1) verse 11 the message that I get from the Angels is, 'Why are you standing here? Be about the task that Jesus has assigned you.' "
In that, my Friend, you give us a perfect example of "eisegesis" -- the action of reading INTO Scripture what you want it to say.
And, he replied:
No, I stated “the message I get.” To clarify, I felt that was the message that the Holy Spirit was giving me. I have felt the Holy Spirit working on me to work in a particular direction. The timing of this discussion just happens to coincide with the Holy Spirit’s working on me.
My response: In another reading of your comment, I see that you did say it was the message that you get from the Holy Spirit. But, when quoting Scripture we need to be clear what comes from Scripture -- and what comes from us, even if it is a revelation from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we could inadvertently mislead others who are less mature in their knowledge of Scripture.
Let me give you a good example. Some years ago, I was listening to Pastor Steve Mays of Calvary Chapel South Bay (Torrance, CA) on KWVE Christian Radio. He was teaching on the story of the Samaritan woman (John 4) meeting Jesus at the well. In his message, he began to describe what was written in Scripture -- but then he began to tell us what Jesus was thinking, where they were standing, their movements, and other actions which are not given in Scripture.
In other words, what he was doing was embellishing the story to make it more interesting, telling us what he imagined happened during that encounter. And, it may have happened just as Pastor Steve described it. But, we do not know, for the Bible does not tell us. What he should have done in his sermon was to tell us, "This is how I picture that scene unfolding."
But, the way he did say it -- he gave the impression that this WAS exactly the way it happened, according to Scripture. And we don't really know that from Scripture. In doing it that way, he could have misled some people. Some may say, "So what? It is just a story." But, that is not the point. When teaching the Bible, we should say what the Bible says -- and when the Bible is silent, we should be silent. Or we should be clear in our teaching that this expanded explanation comes from our imagination, or even what we believe to be a revelation from the Holy Spirit, and not from Scripture.
And, my Friend, that is the point I was making with you -- that by quoting Scripture and adding to it, even if it is to make a point, we must be clear to explain to folks hearing us or reading us, what is Scripture -- and where we are adding to it. Otherwise, we ARE reading into Scripture what is not there. And, that is eisegesis.
Issue 7 -- I wrote:
Acts 1:10-11, "And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. (11) They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.' "
And, he replied:
Allow me a moment here. Stop and think back to when you were a little boy and your mom had given you a task to do. And when you were finished she would have a surprise for you.
Maybe later on that day you were daydreaming or woolgathering, as my grandmother would say. Your mom catches you. Can you not hear her say something similar? “Why are you standing here. Finish your tasks and I will give you your surprise.” That is over simplistic I know, but think about it.
My response: That could be true. However, that is not what it tells us in Scripture. In Scripture, the angels ask why they are looking up, most likely in awe. And, then the angels give them a great promise, "Jesus will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
You and I know that they are speaking of His Second Coming in glory, when He will return to earth and establish His Millennial Kingdom. That, to me, is the great hope we have in us:
1 Peter 3:15, "But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
So, once again, we have to stick with what Scripture tells us. Otherwise, we are adding to Scripture.
Issue 8 -- I wrote:
If you and I had been there that day -- just like the apostles, we would have been looking up into the sky as Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. I am sure those apostles had mixed emotions. They knew He is God the Son. They had His promise that He WILL come again to rapture His church, and that He will return to earth in the same glorified, immortal body in which He ascended. He will return in glory as the Lion of Judah.
But, the apostles and disciples were not yet indwelled, sealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit. When that happened, ten days later, that is when the dynamic Christian church began.
And, he replied:
I probably would have (been looking up)...... Yep, after they had “got along with their get alongs.” Now if they had stayed there looking at the sky do you think what happened next would have happened?
My response: No, I cannot imagine them standing there for ten days, looking up into the sky. And, as you suggest in that folksy way, they did "get along" to do what Jesus had instructed them in earlier verses:
Acts 1:4-5, "Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, 'Which,' He said, 'you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.' "
He had instructed them to wait in Jerusalem for the Father's promise to be fulfilled. They, and other disciples (120 total), went to the most obvious place to wait -- the Upper Room where He had eaten His last meal with His apostles. There, they waited in fellowship and prayer -- for God's promise. What was God's promise? It was that they "will be baptized with the Holy Spirit (receive the Holy Spirit) not many days from now."
And, ten days later, on the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit did come upon them, indwelling, sealing, and empowering them to preach the Gospel. That is the same promise, and marching orders, God gives to all believers today. And, that was the beginning of the Christian church, the fellowship we enjoy today.
Issue 9 -- I wrote:
Our blessed hope is that we know that He is coming again to Rapture His church from earth -- and exactly seven years later -- He will return to earth, His Second Coming -- just as the apostles watched Him go into heaven.
And, he replied:
Huh? Please explain further.
My response: The one thing that should be foremost in every Christian believer's mind and heart -- is that Jesus Christ is coming again. That to me is the Blessed Hope the apostle Paul is speaking of in Titus 2:
Titus 2:11-13, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
And, I believe that is what Peter means when he tells us in 1 Peter 3:15, "But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."
He is coming again in glory -- first, in the clouds to Rapture His church out of this world (John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) and then He will return to earth as the Lion of Judah, in glory, to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth.
Issue 10 -- I wrote:
That is what the two angels are telling the apostles, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
And, he replied:
Just a reminder of their reward.
My response: If you are referring to the Christian believer's reward of being Raptured into heaven; and, then returning with Him at His Second Coming -- yes. If you mean a different reward, that eludes me at this time.
Issue 11 -- I wrote:
Nothing was said, nor implied, about "the task that Jesus has assigned" -- to them or to us. To insert that into this verse (Acts 1:11) -- is to insert what you expect, or want, Scripture to say, not what it does say. And, that is "eisegesis" -- how false theologies are created.
And, he replied:
False theologies? Seriously?
Answer me this. What was the purpose of the angels asking them the question? You cannot say that it was (not) germane. Otherwise, why would they have even asked it? Again, I felt that the message I was receiving was that I needed a kick in the pants and the Holy Spirit pointed it out to me. Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can work on us today?
My response: Yes, there are many false theologies and even cult churches which are birthed through eisegesis, putting into Scripture what the person, or church, wants it to say -- rather than what God has inspired to be written. I am convinced that Scripture is God's "complete" revelation to man, fully sufficient to lead man to salvation and to guide man in his daily Christian walk.
When someone inserts something into Scripture other than what God has written -- that is man's revelation, not God's. And, that does give birth to a false theologies and false religions.
You ask me, "What was the purpose of the angels asking them the question?" It was their way of pointing the disciples toward their, the angels, true reason for even being there and appearing to them. God knew that His disciples would be feeling that all was lost now that Christ had been crucified. He sent His angels to assure His disciples that He will, indeed, come again -- His Second Coming in glory, as the Lion of Judah.
And, you ask, "Again, I felt that the message I was receiving was that I needed a kick in the pants and the Holy Spirit pointed it out to me. Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit can work on us today?"
We all need a kick in the pants at times to get us moving. Someone wisely said, "For the Lord to guide us, we must be moving. Even God cannot guide a stationary rock if it insists upon sitting in place."
Do I believe the Holy Spirit works in us today? Absolutely! And, that is what Jesus Christ promised, that the Holy Spirit will guide us (John 16:13), teach us (John 15:26), and convict us when we are disobedient (John 16:8).
Yet, we must also be in prayer that what we believe the Holy Spirit is teaching us -- IS coming from the Holy Spirit and not what someone else has put into our minds. The best way to be sure is, first, to pray about it. And then, to test it against Scripture (Acts 17:11).
Let me give you an example: Years ago, when I first began to study eschatology, i.e., the End Times; I often wondered what will happen to those believers who survive the Tribulation. Will they be raptured, a second Rapture? Will they receive their immortal bodies?
One day as I was driving home from work, not thinking of the End Times or anything related, only thinking of getting home and relaxing -- a thought popped into my mind, "Those believers who survive the Tribulation will enter the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies." Wow, where did that come from? I was not even thinking about it at that time. But, I was relaxed and the Holy Spirit spoke to me, in His time, in His own way.
Later, as I began to dig further into Scripture, I found that to be true, they will enter into His Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies. And, there is a Scriptural reason for that to happen. It is part of God's plan which will bring this chapter of His creation to a close -- and begin the final, eternal chapter of His divine plan for all believers, which will never end.
All who enter the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies will be believers, still with their inherent sin nature, but without Satan's temptations. The will marry and have children. Those mortal children born during this 1000 year period will also have the Adamic sin nature and will have to make a "free will" decision -- to choose Christ or to deny Christ.
Even though Satan will not be there to tempt, complacency will lead many to just not bother to seek Christ. Keep in mind that not choosing -- is choosing. But, the default choice is to deny Christ. Even in the Millennial Kingdom, a person must make a decisive choice to follow Christ.
After the 1000 year confinement in the abyss, Satan will be released. And, he will gather his massive army, from those mortals born during the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom who have not made a decision to follow Christ. This army will come against Jesus Christ and His beloved city, Jerusalem -- and will be destroyed supernaturally by fire from heaven (Revelation 20:7-10).
That day, driving home from work, I had what I believed to be a revelation from the Holy Spirit, teaching me. And, I confirmed it in Scripture. That is the Holy Spirit working -- and He will do that for all believers who are open to Him.
Issue 12 -- I wrote:
Acts 1:12, "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away."
In this verse and subsequent verses, I see more of a "wait upon the Lord" -- than the "get to work" you suggest. In those verses, I see the apostles joining with other believers (120 in total), men and women, including Mary, the mother of Jesus, in the Upper Room. I see them devoting themselves to prayer and fellowship as they wait upon the Lord.
And, he replied:
Kinda makes you think they were “getting along with their get alongs,” huh?
My response: Well, if you mean in a folksy way that they were doing what Jesus Christ had instructed them in Acts 1:4-5, that they should return to Jerusalem and wait for the promised gift of God -- yes, that is what they did. But, I would not consider that "works" -- merely obedience.
Issue 13 -- I wrote:
And, in their human nature which had not yet been empowered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- I see the apostles (in Acts 1) doing what we all do at times -- getting ahead of God.
And, he replied:
I don’t know that to be the case. I am not going to argue one way or the other. But answer me this. We know that in chapter two the Holy Spirit came on them. If they were not in accord with God’s will, would that have occurred? I am just asking.
My response: This we know to be Biblically true: Jesus personally appointed the twelve apostles. During that ten days in the Upper Room, the eleven remaining apostles took it upon themselves to appoint a replacement for Judas. They appointed Matthias -- who quickly disappeared into the tombs of history, never to be heard of again in all the New Testament.
However, once Jesus Christ got the apostles and disciples indwelled and on the road to building His Christian fellowship, His church, His body of believers, through their teaching of the Word -- Jesus Christ Himself appointed the new twelfth apostle: Paul.
You ask, "If they were not in accord with God’s will, would that have occurred?"
I am not suggesting that they were not believers, nor that they were not obedient in most things. I am only suggesting that since Jesus appointed the first twelve apostles -- why should they feel that they were called upon to appoint a replacement for Judas? If Christ appointed the first twelve, it would seem that He should be the One to name the new twelfth apostle. Which He did, with Paul on the road to Damascus.
This does not mean that the apostles were not believers -- no more than it means that you and I are not believers when we get ahead of God, or are disobedient to God. Yes, those 120 disciples were all believers -- and on the tenth day, the Day of Pentecost, they were all indwelled and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. They were the first to have the permanent indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. Since then, all believers, at the moment we believe, are permanently indwelled and sealed ( Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).
Issue 14 -- I wrote:
During that ten days in the Upper Room -- not "get to work" -- but, wait upon the Lord, stay in prayer, and prepare yourself to receive the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, the promise of God.
And, he replied:
You are arguing semantics here. They were working towards that point. They were preparing for that event -- tomato, tomahto!
My response: I suppose if you want to call being obedient to what Christ had instructed them in Acts 1:4-5, 14 to be works, you can.
Acts 1:4-5, "Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, 'Which,' He said, 'you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.' "
Acts 1:14, "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
But, I would view those ten days as times of worship, prayer, and waiting upon the Lord. And, one cannot be a Christian believer without doing those things, even a "couch potato" Christian will most likely be in prayer and worship -- as he/she sits on the couch waiting for someone to come and ask about Jesus.
Issue 15 -- I wrote:
Finally, he asks, "How about Acts 10:47-48? Acts 19:3-5?"
If I read you right, you are suggesting these Scripture passages -- as proof of "baptismal regeneration," i.e., a person does not have salvation until he/she has been baptized.
And, he replied:
Nope, you read me wrong again. I posted those in response to another Forum Friend to get “his take” on those verses. Period, paragraph. Just trying to learn and grow as a Christian. Nothing more, nothing less.
The rest of your comments really have no bearing on the point that I was trying to make. So I am not going to respond at this time.
Again, let me be clear. My responses were made for the sole purpose of trying to show you that I am not a “couch potato Christian.” I may have been once, but I no longer am and have not been for some time now.
My response: Then, I misunderstood. Since you and I had a running dialogue going in the Salvation First - Works To Follow!" discussion -- and you posted, "How about Acts 10:47-48? Acts 19:3-5?" -- I naturally assumed you were addressing me and continuing our discussion.
I will admit that I was a wee bit confused when you tossed in James 3, Acts 10:47-48, and Acts 19:3-5 -- but, I just assumed this to be additional thoughts you were bringing into our dialogue.
So, I apologize for my confusion. And, regarding the unearned title of "couch potato" Christian, let me once again repeat what I have already written:
I really do not recall calling you specifically a "couch potato" Christian. I looked through the discussion which led to this one, "Salvation First - Works To Follow!" and could not find it there. I did write, in one of our discussions, that I have encountered several Forum Friend who have told me, "If someone asks me about Jesus Christ, I will tell them. If they do not ask, I will not push my beliefs on them."
And, I have called that kind of person a "couch potato" Christian -- for they seem to want to wait for folks to come to them, before they will attempt to evangelize. That is not what Christ has told us in Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15. He told us to "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, TEACH them. Be My witness in all the world."
My Friend, I am happy that you are an evangelical, witnessing Christian. I pray that our dialogues will encourage other Friends to dig deeper into Scripture -- and that maybe someone who is not yet a believer, may be led to Jesus Christ through our exchanges.
Thank you for your insightful comments.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
