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Hi guys,

I am really at a loss today. We tell our children that God hears our prayers. We tell them that SAnta can whip around the world in one night.
We tell them god loves us and protects us.
I can "reconcile" this in most cases. But 20 children under age 10 gunned down at school? This is testing my faith.
Please, don't jump all over me. I do know God is with us. I know prayers are powerful.
But what in His Holy Name could His Will be in this horrific incident?
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Originally Posted by vplee123: 
Hi guys,

I am really at a loss today. We tell our children that God hears our prayers. We tell them that SAnta can whip around the world in one night.
We tell them god loves us and protects us.
I can "reconcile" this in most cases. But 20 children under age 10 gunned down at school? This is testing my faith.
Please, don't jump all over me. I do know God is with us. I know prayers are powerful.
But what in His Holy Name could His Will be in this horrific incident?

 Vplee,  no one has a right to jump all over you. We are all confused at why God does not stop this. But he knows what he doing.  They say " God is gathering his angels". All the world is probably feeling the same way that you are. It is so terrible that this has happened again. 

Hi VP,

 

You ask, and we all understand where you are coming from, "But what in His Holy Name could His Will be in this horrific incident?"

 

But, this horrific tragedy was not the will of God.   No more than 9-11 was His will, nor the holocaust was His will, nor any of the horrible crimes committed by man.

 

Evil such as this comes from the heart and mind of man, not God.  Could God have stopped it?  Yes, just as God could stop any action of man.   God could stop anyone from denying Him and being lost eternally.  God could have prevented the many wars which have taken so many lives over the centuries.

 

So, why did He not stop all those wars, holocaust, 9-11, and the sad loss of young lives today?

 

Two reasons:  (1) God gave man "free will" -- and with that faculty of free will, man makes his own choices.  God could control all or our actions; but, then we would just be divinely created robots.  That is not what God wants either.   So, he allows our "free will" to play out as it will.

 

And (2) when Adam sinned through disobeying God, he brought sin and death into all the creation.  Unfortunately, that death includes all of us, even young children.   And, such evil, man's sin nature, will be a part of man until after Christ's Millennial Reign on earth -- when He takes all believers into eternity to be with Him eternally.  As long as man is in this mortal body, the sin nature inherited from Adam will be an integral part of man.  That is why you and I pray, "Come, Lord Jesus!"

 

God bless,

 

Bill

Where was god? I guess taking care of the old lady who was praying her car would start. Where was security? NO ONE should be allowed in the school without first being checked by security-real security-the ones that can and will "take someone out" if they try to come into the schools armed in any way at all. Killing babies. How much lower and sicker can it get.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Where was god? I guess taking care of the old lady who was praying her car would start. Where was security? NO ONE should be allowed in the school without first being checked by security-real security-the ones that can and will "take someone out" if they try to come into the schools armed in any way at all. Killing babies. How much lower and sicker can it get.

________

I bet He answered her prayer & started her car. 

What about the employee that shot himself Thursday inside the federal courthouse in  Birmingham. Most all federal buildings require everyone to go through metal detectors because guns are prohibited in the building. I read that those detectors are not required for employees. Sounds silly to me, they are usually the ones that kill.

 

Semi- you are not the last person I want to hear from;-) please don't ever think that. We are all on the same path, trying to make sense of this... It will never make sense, but I am grappling with the same issues everyone is tonight I'm sure... Also sad to learn that 22 young children were injured (many critically) in china today- what is this world coming to?????

It is beyond belief or comprehension what happened today and what would or could enable any person to do as this person did.  There will though always be questions that seemingly have no comprehend-able answer yet leaves us yearning for understanding when there is none.  It is reasonable to ask where is God and to wonder how such is allowed to happen.  One thing for sure is God was not in the heart of the person who did this.  There was no love there was no compassion or peace or no fruits of the Spirit within this person who could do such evil and horrible acts and I fully believe IF GOD's Spirit was in this person that this would have not happened this way.  There is no just outcome in this world, in this reality to atone for what was done today.  Our society though, in the world we live in and what we teach no longer gives significance to life.  Life if viewed as nothing special nothing other than a chance occurrence and nothing special no special or significant creation.  No I'm not blaming secular teaching of evolution or regarding the origin of life or humans and many would say that would be unjust to do so but no more unjust than someone who would try and say it's God's fault. This act could have also have been done by someone deranged into thinking God told them to do this or feeling they were right in doing it.  The only sure thing is the person who did it was sick, deranged or evil but none of us really know at this point in time.

 

I've said many times that when you teach and implant in people's minds that there is no significance to life no special circumstances with human life as being a special and unique gift then the only way I can imagine anyone being able to do what was done is that they viewed these lives as of having no significance they saw these children and people as nothing but objects with no significance at all, just a happenstance event that occurred by chance when just the right circumstances happen  .  I know there will be disagreement with this thought but when you teach and indoctrinate people that life just occurs then just how do you instill that life has any special significance?

 

Truth is no one has answers for there truly aren't any.  Only the person responsible knows what was in their distorted and wicked mind but as for me I hurt so deeply just thinking about these innocent ones and their loved ones who are striving to cope with such a horrendous loss. 

I've said many times that when you teach and implant in people's minds that there is no significance to life no special circumstances with human life as being a special and unique gift then the only way I can imagine anyone being able to do what was done is that they viewed these lives as of having no significance they saw these children and people as nothing but objects with no significance at all, just a happenstance event that occurred by chance when just the right circumstances happen  I know there will be disagreement with this thought but when you teach and indoctrinate people that life just occurs then just how do you instill that life has any special significance?


===============================

First you say you're not going to "blame"-then you proceed on to the blame.


There are thousands and thousands of people doing horrible things that think there is a god "that was always there and made a man out of dirt, and a woman out of a bone". BTK killer was big in his church, and using his church computer to talk to the cops is what got him busted, Just who is doing all this life has no significance "teaching"? I'd think preaching about a god that will send a person to hell for the slightest thing, among the other horrible things he supposedly did, or ordered done in his name, would be more of "a life has no significance or meaning to it "lesson" than the people that tell us of the wonder of how we came to be. That's what I hear when I hear the story of "us", the beauty, the wonder, and how lucky we are, never that life has no meaning and is not worth anything.

On the other hand. isn't your god the one that sent bears to slaughter 40 kids for making fun of a bald man, just one example of his slaughtering of babies and children? Not to mention that he supposedly let his own child be killed. How often do I hear christians talking about how awful this old world is, but they're going to a better place when they die? Talk about saying life has no meaning!


Until these mentally unstable people, including plenty of religious nuts, are dealt with properly we will keep hearing these stories. Until we make up our minds to protect ourselves and innocents from mentally unstable, or just plain "mean" people we will keep hearing these stories. Again, there is no reason on earth why this kid, or anyone, should have been allowed to walk into that school and kill those babies.

Last edited by Bestworking

Latest report is that he somehow BROKE INTO the school.

 

The only thing I can say about why God didn't stop this from happening is, somehow, in the future in Heaven there is a good reason. God's reasoning is so far beyond our own there is no way we puny humans could understand. I DO take comfort in knowing that those children are now with Him. And I pray that He will bring comfort to the parents and siblings and other family members.

 

My heart goes out to the kids who survived. They will probably be fearful for the rest of their lives. I remember when I was a kid and a well-known landmark in our town burned to the ground one night. For YEARS after that I stayed awake well into the night, looking and sniffing for smoke, afraid that MY house would burn down in the middle of the night. I can imagine how much worse it will be for these kids.

 

 

O No> The only thing I can say about why God didn't stop this from happening is, somehow, in the future in Heaven there is a good reason. God's reasoning is so far beyond our own there is no way we puny humans could understand. I DO take comfort in knowing that those children are now with Him. And I pray that He will bring comfort to the parents and siblings and other family members.


hg> well said, i agree. 

Originally Posted by vplee123:
Hi guys,

I am really at a loss today. We tell our children that God hears our prayers. We tell them that SAnta can whip around the world in one night.
We tell them god loves us and protects us.
I can "reconcile" this in most cases. But 20 children under age 10 gunned down at school? This is testing my faith.
Please, don't jump all over me. I do know God is with us. I know prayers are powerful.
But what in His Holy Name could His Will be in this horrific incident?

---

I've wondered similar thoughts the last decade of peoples actions. I don't know the answer but I do know the pain.

 

One news reporter said this is going to affect every person in that small community. I think he underestimated it a bit. It effect everyone big time.

 

 

Last edited by MrClean69

Armed security could have stopped him "dead" in his tracks the second he raised a gun to start  shooting out the glass doors. I think instead of asking why, we are going to have to face the fact that people will continue doing these things and there is going to have to be a defense against it. All the gun banning in the world won't stop one person bent on causing death and destruction. They will find other ways to do the things they want. There's no way to  "ban" against these things, but we should at least prepare.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Armed security could have stopped him "dead" in his tracks the second he raised a gun to start  shooting out the glass doors. I think instead of asking why, we are going to have to face the fact that people will continue doing these things and there is going to have to be a defense against it. All the gun banning in the world won't stop one person bent on causing death and destruction. They will find other ways to do the things they want. There's no way to  "ban" against these things, but we should at least prepare.

with respect, I'm not sure we should submit our little children going to kindergarten to pass by armed guards to see there class room. Might be acceptable in a communist country but not here.

 

I know if there was the Marines in front of that Kindergaten school that situation yesterday would not have happened.

 

I agree Mr. Clean. I don't want to see armed guards in our schools. Well, beyond the SRO's. We have seen a sharp decrease in violent crimes in our schools since 85% have added SRO's. Yet, if the gunman had known there was a SRO in the school he probably would have taken him out first. And since he concentrated his killing in one small area of the school more than likely anyone that had a gun on the school grounds would not have had time to react fast enough to stop him. This school had just recently put in security measures. The gunman just shot his way through it. Its a sad tragedy and I hope we can learn something from it that will make our children safer, but more than likely it is just something that could not have been prevented on the schools side. Mental illness is what needs to be addressed in this country. Obviously this guy was not sane.

Ya know Grbk, I take offense to your words. As someone that raised my children in a secular home, I can tell you that I never taught them that life has no meaning. On the contrary, I taught them that this life is all they have and they had better make it a good as possible. I taught them that human life was precious. I taught them to have empathy and sympathy for others.

 

If you want to look at this horrible act of violence from a religious stand point, even though I don't think religion had anything to do with it, lets look at violence in highly religious states. The most religious states in the US have the highest rate of violent crimes. Tennessee ranked #1 on most violent crimes in the latest reports (well some rate Louisianna as #1, they are pretty much neck and neck) . It ranked #4 on the list of most religious states. On the other hand Maine ranked number #48 on the religious scale and #1 on the least amount of violent crimes.

 

Here is a little bit of data, you should google it and educate yourself further on the correlation of the amount of religious people in a state and violent crimes.

 

http://chartsbin.com/view/1202

 

 

 

with respect, I'm not sure we should submit our little children going to kindergarten to pass by armed guards to see there class room. Might be acceptable in a communist country but not here.


Why would armed security upset a child? Are they upset when they see guards anywhere else? Do armed policemen patrolling upset them? I think they'd be fine with it because they'd understand that guard was there to protect them. 

Originally Posted by thehippiegirl is gone.:

O No> The only thing I can say about why God didn't stop this from happening is, somehow, in the future in Heaven there is a good reason. God's reasoning is so far beyond our own there is no way we puny humans could understand. I DO take comfort in knowing that those children are now with Him. And I pray that He will bring comfort to the parents and siblings and other family members.


hg> well said, i agree. 

Yes, well said. The children are in God's hands now and safe from the terrors of the world. 

Originally Posted by LAL:
Originally Posted by vplee123: 
Hi guys,

I am really at a loss today. We tell our children that God hears our prayers. We tell them that SAnta can whip around the world in one night.
We tell them god loves us and protects us.
I can "reconcile" this in most cases. But 20 children under age 10 gunned down at school? This is testing my faith.
Please, don't jump all over me. I do know God is with us. I know prayers are powerful.
But what in His Holy Name could His Will be in this horrific incident?

 Vplee,  no one has a right to jump all over you. We are all confused at why God does not stop this. But he knows what he doing.  They say " God is gathering his angels". All the world is probably feeling the same way that you are. It is so terrible that this has happened again. 

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You're right, LaL, I do believe that god gathers His angels... But this is just suffering beyond my brain's ability to process. I've never really been one to accept "joyfully awaiting God's return"- I love this life. But these past two days, it's all shaken. I have found myself wishing He comes soon.. Hugs to you all..

Hi all,

 

Let's all keep this in the proper perspective.  It is NOT God's will that anyone, man, woman, or child, be hurt or killed.  That is MAN'S WILL! 

 

Could God have stopped that tragedy?  Yes.

 

Then, why did He not stop it?   I don't know.  At least not yet.  But, one day I will be face to face with Him and can ask Him.  For now, I have to live with the fact that He is the sovereign God -- and His plan for all of us is best (Jeremiah 29:11).

 

Isaiah 55:8-9, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts."

 

And, that is why we are saved, by grace, through FAITH. 

 

Hebrews 11:1-3 is called the Faith Chapter, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval.  By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible."

 

And, that chapter continues saying, "By faith Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. . . ." followed God and it was accorded to them as righteousness.

 

This past week, Dory and I attended the Memorial and Funeral Service for a Christian Friend Dory has known since 1962.  Today, we attended the Memorial Service for a very dear Friend lady.  In 1987, she and her husband became my "spiritual parents" for they led me to the Lord.

 

This woman is so loved that two Memorial Services, one last night and one today, had to be held to accommodate all the people wishing to pay their final respects and show their love for her.  At the service today, Dr. Harold Sala, founder, president, and guiding light behind Guidelines International Ministries, told us of this long loved Christian lady, "Ida did not look at death as bad or as a punishment.  For her, it truly was as the apostle Paul wrote, in Philippians 1:21, "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

 

When Ida died last Sunday night, she did not lose life -- SHE GAINED HEAVEN!.

 

When viewing tragic deaths such as happened in this school, it is natural for the non-believer to blame God and, even, to possibly curse God.  But, for the believer, we must all, by FAITH, know that God's plan is best (Jeremiah 29:11); that His thoughts and understanding are much greater than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9); and that those young children have GAINED HEAVEN (Philippians 1:21).

 

But, some will ask, "What about the adults who were killed?  Did they gain heaven?"

 

We do not know -- for it depends upon whether they had a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.  If they had the Son in their hearts, they gained heaven.  If they did not have the Son in their hearts, they did not gain heaven.

 

1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

 

This is why we Christians are always telling folks they need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ -- for no one knows when that last breath will occur.  Until that last breath, one can always turn to Christ and be saved.  After that last breath in this mortal body -- our eternal destiny, our eternal fate, is sealed:  heaven or hell.  And, after that last breath, no one can have a "do over."

 

This is why it is so important for each person to know Jesus Christ and to have a personal saving relationship with Him.  If those six adults who were killed in the school had this relationship with the

Son, they are in heaven right now.  If they did not, they are not in heaven.

 

How about you?  Do you have a "saving relationship? with Him -- so that you can be assured that you will go to heaven if you die or are killed unexpectedly?  Don't you think it is time to think about doing that?  Now?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Last edited by Bill Gray
Originally Posted by Jankinonya:

Ya know Grbk, I take offense to your words. As someone that raised my children in a secular home, I can tell you that I never taught them that life has no meaning. On the contrary, I taught them that this life is all they have and they had better make it a good as possible. I taught them that human life was precious. I taught them to have empathy and sympathy for others.

 

If you want to look at this horrible act of violence from a religious stand point, even though I don't think religion had anything to do with it, lets look at violence in highly religious states. The most religious states in the US have the highest rate of violent crimes. Tennessee ranked #1 on most violent crimes in the latest reports (well some rate Louisianna as #1, they are pretty much neck and neck) . It ranked #4 on the list of most religious states. On the other hand Maine ranked number #48 on the religious scale and #1 on the least amount of violent crimes.

 

Here is a little bit of data, you should google it and educate yourself further on the correlation of the amount of religious people in a state and violent crimes.

 

http://chartsbin.com/view/1202

 

 

 

I'm sorry you took offense but I did not mean that it applied to everyone for I know that there are exceptions in every case.  Facts though are that guns were more available and easier to get years ago but in the 50's and 60's and before we never heard of such happening.  It is also history that morals and respect of God or a Creator was taught and a part of public eduction as well as prayer. 


That's not to say removing it is to blame but I do believe that when, as evolution does, you teach that life is a happenstance event that just happens under the right conditions and of no Spiritual significance as a creation of God or some supreme being then you do reduce human life to not more than that of insect life or any other life for they are all the same.  Again that's not the sole cause but I do believe it can be a contributor to developing people that we have graduating today.  I'm not saying that they have no morals but there are many more today that have no respect of God or life than at any other time in history, as far as this nation is concerned.    

 

Also to blame, and in my mind more so is the violent video games and movies we indoctrinate our kids with.  We get them accustomed to killing and shooting things with no consequences what so ever.  Couple that with a disregard for human life and you have a dangerous situation (I believe). 

 

Also consider that annually, in our country, much more innocent life is taken and condoned with no consequences.  It's even condoned and sanctioned and in many cases encouraged and even by our own government and that is Abortion.  LIFE is qualified as to what is significant or important and we allow many women to choose death of their unborn just on the merit that they would be in inconvenience.    

 

I believe that there are MANY contributing factors and most of them are far removed from God or any Religious Morality or standard.  I realize that many believe evolution to be a fact but in evolution, regardless of what each individual family teaches, there is no special significance to human life for it's just a derivative of another form of life.  The removal of God and any potential future (after life) punishment and judgement takes away, for some, any potential check against some immoral act such as this for there is no fear of the Judgment of God for there is no God. 

 

I realize that many don't believe in God and don't want God to have anyplace in School or bringing up a child but then don't go trying to blame God for not stepping in and preventing such or intervening in human endeavors when as a greater and greater majority of cases we remove and reject God or anything to do with Religion.  I believe there are many contributing factors in this horrendous and unthinkable act but I do not, wholesale, blame atheist, Satanist, or non-believers or any other cause for I'm sure that even those who do not believe in God, of them, many have standards of morality and teach their kids from those standards but I also do not believe this is universal and in all cases and in those cases where it's not the case then danger resides there and potential for such horrendous acts, that's what I believe. 

Originally Posted by O No!:

Latest report is that he somehow BROKE INTO the school.

 

The only thing I can say about why God didn't stop this from happening is, somehow, in the future in Heaven there is a good reason. God's reasoning is so far beyond our own there is no way we puny humans could understand. I DO take comfort in knowing that those children are now with Him. And I pray that He will bring comfort to the parents and siblings and other family members.

 

My heart goes out to the kids who survived. They will probably be fearful for the rest of their lives. I remember when I was a kid and a well-known landmark in our town burned to the ground one night. For YEARS after that I stayed awake well into the night, looking and sniffing for smoke, afraid that MY house would burn down in the middle of the night. I can imagine how much worse it will be for these kids.

 

 

Truly this is an unfathomable act of such magnitude and horror that there is no human way to comprehend it or find any words to settle it in our minds.  Those of us with kids and grandkids look at them and, although we would never want to envision it, think about it being our own and strive to grasp at some feeling or emotion that somehow we would hope would enable us to say something that would somehow make it better for someone else.  It is times like this and with such an event that such profound magnitude of suffering cannot be comprehended of.  There are a few that can have empathy with the loved ones for they have lost young children to a senseless act but for most of us we struggle to find answers or some way to allow us to accept that such actually happened.

 

For those who believe in and trust in God we yield to Him to give us peace and understanding and acceptance to accept that which cannot be explained or answered for.  As one who does believe there is Judgment to be faced, one day in the future, I cannot conceive of the Judgment that will befall the one who did this horrendous thing.  Our only solace, as Christians, is to realize that these little innocent ones were before that time of accountability and we believe and accept that they will be in with Christ and have a part in paradise in an eternal Spiritual state where cares of the flesh and the horrors of sin can no longer reach them.  As mere bystanders, fellow parents and grandparents we can only pray that God will grant peace and comfort to those who lost such irreplaceable ones and hope that the singing pain of their absence will be quelled and that they will find inner peace and not be tormented of mind in having to accept that which no one should ever have to face.

 

Realize though that the 20 or so innocent children lives that were snuffed out are but a small infinitesimal fraction of lives compared to the number that our government and many of us condone and allow to happen daily in the United States, many just as form of birth control.  Oh but that our Nation and people could be so concerned and effected by the purposeful murder and taking of innocent life of those children and hopefully ultimately stop the willful taking of innocent life.  I realize that many would disagree and could not associate abortion with this act but I see little difference in the end act and result.  The only difference in the two are the life experience that the little ones have been able to accumulate and the number of people they have been able to effect in their short time  of life.  I pray that through this horrendous loss that many pro-abortion people will have second through about the taking of a promising life for that right of abortion is very often used solely because someone doesn't want a pregnancy or as birth control.  There are many things I have a hard time accepting and comprehending or finding answers for and this act is but just one of them.

Originally Posted by vplee123:
You're right, LaL, I do believe that god gathers His angels... But this is just suffering beyond my brain's ability to process. I've never really been one to accept "joyfully awaiting God's return"- I love this life. But these past two days, it's all shaken. I have found myself wishing He comes soon.. Hugs to you all..

SO have I wished that God would come. People may laugh and throw comments at me, but I really believe that he is gathering his angels and what is more innocent than a child. Peace be with the families and I wish you the same.  

Jank, you know that I don't believe that atheists are any more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else. But I must object to your theory about religious people being more likely to. If you compare population density to crime rates, I think you will find that THAT is a much stronger indicator of crime. Even in low population density states, you will find that the cities have higher crime rates. Nevada for example, has very high crime in Vegas, and very low crime in the less populated regions. If you look at the percentages you will see that I am right. California for example, has higher crime per capita on the coast than inland.

 

I like to compare it to too many rats in the maze. They get stressed and start to bite each other.

Veep, I think I know where God was on that day. He was in the hearts of the staff members who risked and in some cases, gave up their lives to protect the children. He was in the hearts of the emergency service members who put their lives on the line every day. He was in the hearts of all of the people in Newtown who showed up to comfort the grieving family members. And He was in the hearts of all of us who are also grieving.

Originally Posted by O No!:

Jank, you know that I don't believe that atheists are any more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else. But I must object to your theory about religious people being more likely to. If you compare population density to crime rates, I think you will find that THAT is a much stronger indicator of crime. Even in low population density states, you will find that the cities have higher crime rates. Nevada for example, has very high crime in Vegas, and very low crime in the less populated regions. If you look at the percentages you will see that I am right. California for example, has higher crime per capita on the coast than inland.

 

I like to compare it to too many rats in the maze. They get stressed and start to bite each other.

______________________________

 

It wasn't my theory O No. It is just straight up statistics that can be found in many different studies. The census bureau ranks states by violence and the top offenders are mostly southern states. We also know that most of the southern states are more religious. My only point was to show Gbrk that his idea is just unfounded and untrue. More religion in a society does not make it less prone to violence. Teaching your children the basics of science does not lead to a life of murder and crime.

 

We could also look at countries that are less religious than the US. The same holds true there too. Those countries where religion is not a big part of the citizens daily lives or where evolution is taught (without bias) we find very little violent crime. Even in countries like Switzerland, where every household has a gun.

 

I would not have even brought this up if so many fingers were not pointing at those of us in society who believe in SOCAS and teaching real science weren't being accused of causing this horrible act of violence.

 

For the record God and prayer are still in schools. A student can pray when ever they want to. They can also live a Christian life publicly. No one has taken God away from anyone. As far as I know that has never even been suggested.

 

That's the trouble with statistics. They are usually quoted to prove a point without taking OTHER FACTORS into consideration. For example, statistics show that people who eat a vegan diet live longer than meat-eaters. But that doesn't take into consideration that people on a vegan diet tend to be more health conscious. They tend to exercize more, they tend not to be smokers. They tend to limit alcohol. So why do they live longer? Probably a combination of things, but it could well be that their diet has nothing at all to do with it.

Originally Posted by Quaildog:

ON THE contrary I think atheist mentality by default was the reason this 20 year old person killed these children. Nobody that believes in hell for sure would commit these crimes and for sure not a believer in God.

----------------------

Then tell me WHY, smart guy......do christians commit so many murders around here? You know they're christians....There ain't too much else around here.

You obviously dunno jack about atheists.

 

I know the answers. Let's hear your reasoning.

 

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Quaildog:

ON THE contrary I think atheist mentality by default was the reason this 20 year old person killed these children. Nobody that believes in hell for sure would commit these crimes and for sure not a believer in God.

----------------------

Then tell me WHY, smart guy......do christians commit so many murders around here? You know they're christians....There ain't too much else around here.

You obviously dunno jack about atheists.

 

I know the answers. Let's hear your reasoning.

 

read the above for answers. they can't be Christians.even a caveman can see that.

RP, Ramm is going through his "atheist are evil" stage. It will get worse and then he will get banned. It is like clockwork. He follows a standard plan. First he pretends he is not Ramm and is nice and reasonable. Then when everyone has figured out that whatever new ID he has taken on is actually Ramm he starts to get a little more nutty. Then he progresses to this stage. Now we see the real Ramm. The one that can't carry on intelligent discussion without trying to blame atheist for everything that goes wrong in this world. He will be gone soon. I will just bid my time and ride out his ramblings.

 

Have I missed him claiming that dinosaurs lived along side humans? If he hasn't done it yet I would expect that post at anytime now.

Originally Posted by O No!:

That's the trouble with statistics. They are usually quoted to prove a point without taking OTHER FACTORS into consideration. For example, statistics show that people who eat a vegan diet live longer than meat-eaters. But that doesn't take into consideration that people on a vegan diet tend to be more health conscious. They tend to exercize more, they tend not to be smokers. They tend to limit alcohol. So why do they live longer? Probably a combination of things, but it could well be that their diet has nothing at all to do with it.

_______________________________

 

I am sure there are all kinds of other factors to the rate of violent crime in a certain state or area. That is not what we are talking about though. To just flat out claim that the lack of religion and the teaching of evolution in public schools is the cause of violence is completely unfounded and unprovable. It is actually the opposite. What ever other factors are involved with states or countries that have high crime rates, high religion rates are always present as at least one of them. Can you name a country or state that is less religious and more violent? I can't.

 

As I said before the only reason I bring this up is because so many Christians (not all) have pointed to the fact that we have a secular government as the problem with violence in this country. And as Gbrk stated that he believes its not only that but also the teaching of real science. These kinds of accusations are not just wrong, they are proven to be the opposite. You can't disregard the numbers just because you don't like them. If we want to understand why, I think we have to at least be honest about it.

 

 

I am sure that the Census Bureau is not trying to make a point by reporting these numbers. It's just facts. They are basing it on violent crimes per 100,000 people. Doesn't matter if that 100,000 all live in one area or spread out across a state. It is a fair and accepted statistical method. Even with all other things considered.

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:
Originally Posted by O No!:

That's the trouble with statistics. They are usually quoted to prove a point without taking OTHER FACTORS into consideration. For example, statistics show that people who eat a vegan diet live longer than meat-eaters. But that doesn't take into consideration that people on a vegan diet tend to be more health conscious. They tend to exercize more, they tend not to be smokers. They tend to limit alcohol. So why do they live longer? Probably a combination of things, but it could well be that their diet has nothing at all to do with it.

_______________________________

 

I am sure there are all kinds of other factors to the rate of violent crime in a certain state or area. That is not what we are talking about though. To just flat out claim that the lack of religion and the teaching of evolution in public schools is the cause of violence is completely unfounded and unprovable. It is actually the opposite. What ever other factors are involved with states or countries that have high crime rates, high religion rates are always present as at least one of them. Can you name a country or state that is less religious and more violent? I can't.

 

As I said before the only reason I bring this up is because so many Christians (not all) have pointed to the fact that we have a secular government as the problem with violence in this country. And as Gbrk stated that he believes its not only that but also the teaching of real science. These kinds of accusations are not just wrong, they are proven to be the opposite. You can't disregard the numbers just because you don't like them. If we want to understand why, I think we have to at least be honest about it.

 

 

I am sure that the Census Bureau is not trying to make a point by reporting these numbers. It's just facts. They are basing it on violent crimes per 100,000 people. Doesn't matter if that 100,000 all live in one area or spread out across a state. It is a fair and accepted statistical method. Even with all other things considered.

 

 

Evolution is taught as FACT but it isn't FACT it's a theory.  Another theory which many accept as FACT is that God created life, all life, and made humans as a special creation with special attributes that no other of His creation has but that theory cannot be taught in school alongside by Evolution and this is considered by many as fair and just.  Just because you don't accept that God exist or that other Atheist believe such does not make that a fact.  Nor can you disprove God exist nor can Science disprove God exist yet it is taught and spoken as if it was a provable fact. 


Like it or not Evolution, by it's very nature, takes away any significance to being human or human life for it is just the same as all other life forms not better and not greater.  It is the teaching of life coming from ANY OTHER method other than evolution that is prohibited from being taught and anyone that advocates such is banned from teaching or might as well be for they will be disqualified for their belief otherwise if stated.  Well that type of mentality can lead to someone that has no respect for human life as it is.  And what about Abortion on demand?  What about the abortions that happen just because someone doesn't want a pregnancy at the time is that not worse than what happened with this school shooting?  To me it's the same except at least in this school shooting the young innocent children had a chance to hide or run but an unborn child doesn't even have that chance but has no place to run from a mother that doesn't want it and a doctor that doesn't care that it is a living human person. I challenge you to prove where the process of evolution adds any significance to human life over any other form of life, there is none.  Evolution says ALL LIFE comes from a single source and branches out from there so no one living thing is any more special or significant than another. 


Sure there are many bad things that have happened in the name of religion but by people that were not the least bit Christian or religious.  They may have claimed the name but their acts betrayed them to be anything but Christian.  What transpired with this deranged person happened for a reason and we may never really know that reason but I still stand on my statement that what you see happening like this comes from a Godless society and not from a God Respecting one where people fear God and believe in God and a future Judgment of their acts and deeds while in this earthly body.  That's my belief and yours may be different but it's by no means more important or accurate just as mine is no more important or accurate than yours but different.  Evolution is not FACT (as a source of life and living things) as you and others like to allude to it as and I still submit that while there are things that evolve and the process is factual from the standpoint that some things have a process of evolution.   I and others are not saying that Evolution does not exist for it does but I am saying that there is no way evolution was the source of LIFE as we know it.  Evolution is the best way that anyone who rejects God and has to write God out of the equation has of explaining how life became and how we got here because they will not and cannot give any possibility to there being  a God or Intelligent Creator so they cling to and rely upon evolution and vehemently defend evolution against all challengers for they have to or else consider that they may possibly be wrong in their whole belief structure. 

 

You can believe (evolution) if it you want but I'm not accepting it nor believing it.  The difference is that I'm not lambasting you or berating you for your belief in Evolution whereas those who advocate Creation by God or Intelligent Design are berated and in many cases lose their jobs because there is zero tolerance of waver given for any other possibility.  That is shameful, narrow minded and pitiful and the most hypocritical of acts and anyone that does it or is guilty of it is just as shameless. 

 

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