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I don't take anything for granted and the cause of his death was not my point. The point is, once again, that anyone can say anything about a person after they die, and unless you are standing there you have no idea what really happened. As I told B-for every site saying they said one thing, there are others saying something else. Why we would even be interested in what they said is beyond me. A COC site about a dying atheist's last words is not going to point that out. It's going to put it forth as the atheist, at death, seeing the "error of their way".  I'd suggest it's Kent Heaton's followers that take things for granted.

Last edited by Jennifer

JFTR, I'm not a follower of Heaton and had never heard of him until I found the article. I used the article as a springboard for discussion...and it has well acted as such.

 

Beyond simple last words, I believe death bed confessions have been used in some cases to free men from prison. How should we take them? Assuming of course the confessor had no relation to the one being charged/held for the crime. Are these dying people impaired by fever, etc.?

Oh really, I should have written down the dying terrors of some of the Christians I saw then...oh, and then we have to add all the people who believed in a God and then had some experience that led them to believe there wasn't one or that he wasn't what they had been told to believe.  We can find millions of quotes from all religions (or those with none) saying at the last minute this or that.  It isn't a contest of who is right or who dies best really.

 

Each birth, life, and death experience is different, and just as one path for life doesn't fit all, neither does one for death.  Some simply fall asleep, some talk to loved ones in the room or smile that they see those waiting for them, and some beg, scream, and cry for mercy or for someone to stop them from dying.  There is no hallmark of "this man must be this faith since he acted this way" and no promise for any of us how we will act...and in the long run does it matter?  We will all die, and however we get there if we live the best life and live it from our hearts instead of trying to make everyone else fit into our own shoes we will most likely die in peace.

 

Oh, and I think how we die has as much to do with how we live, our experiences, and our personality as it does with anything else.  Yes, if a person feels guilty  can see that all pouring out definitely.

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

JFTR, I'm not a follower of Heaton and had never heard of him until I found the article. I used the article as a springboard for discussion...and it has well acted as such.

 

Beyond simple last words, I believe death bed confessions have been used in some cases to free men from prison. How should we take them? Assuming of course the confessor had no relation to the one being charged/held for the crime. Are these dying people impaired by fever, etc.?


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I have no idea how a "death bed" confession would work exactly, but to free someone from prison I'd think there would be proper authorities there, doctors there to swear to the person's mental condition, and it would be witnessed and all the i's dotted and t's crossed with the signature of the one giving the statement. Then it might open up a new investigation that could lead to the person's release. But the confession alone wouldn't do the trick.

My nomination for the most trivial last words of any notable person:  "I forgot my soap." These were the words reported in a newspaper account the day after the assassination of George Lincoln Rockwell.  Other accounts report Rockwell as having said, "I forgot my bleach."  Irrespective of which laundry product was involved, I suspect Rockwell would have preferred to have said something much more profound before a sniper's bullets closed out his miserable, hateful life.

 

The notorious racist and leader of the American N a z i Party, George Lincoln Rockwell, uttered his less-than-ennobling final words as he walked from his car back into a laundromat in Arlington, Virginia.  Moments later, he was gunned down in the parking lot by a disgruntled former associate.

 

I lived in Arlington when this happened and will never forget the newspaper report of this mundane utterance by that truly despicable character.  Here is more on Rockwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lincoln_Rockwell

 

Last edited by upsidedehead

SO I was curious about Thomas Pain's supposed recantation on his death bed and, like Charle's Darwin's mythical recantation, it appears to be a myth as well.  A quick Googling reveals:

"(Thomas Paine) died almost alone. The moment he died Christians commenced manufacturing horrors for his death-bed. They had his chamber filled with devils rattling chains, and these ancient lies are annually certified to by the respectable Christians of the present day. The truth is, he died as he lived. Some ministers were impolite enough to visit him against his will. Several of them he ordered from his room. A couple of Catholic priests, in all the meekness of hypocrisy, called that they might enjoy the agonies of a dying friend of man. Thomas Paine, rising in his bed, the few embers of expiring life blown into flame by the breath of indignation, had the goodness to curse them both. His physician, who seems to have been a meddling fool, just as the cold hand of death was touching the patriot's heart, whispered in the dull ear of the dying man: "Do you believe, or do you wish to believe, that Jesus Christ is the son of God?" And the reply was "I have no wish to believe on that subject."

These were the last remembered words of Thomas Paine. He died as serenely as ever a Christian passed away. He died in the full possession of his mind, and on the brink and edge of death he proclaimed the doctrines of his life.


A cursory glance at toher website appear to validate this story.

A
nother website has this to say:

 

"The New York Observer, a Presbyterian paper, published "news" of Paine's "recantation" on his death bed.  It was immediately challenged by Robert Ingersol who wrote a letter that read,


"I will deposit with the First National Bank of Peoria, Illinois, one thousand dollars in gold, upon the following conditions: -- This money shall be subject to your order when you shall, in the manner hereafter provided, substantiate that Thomas Paine admitted the Bible to be an inspired book, or that he recanted his Infidel opinions -- or that he died regretting that he had disbelieved the Bible -- or that he died calling upon Jesus Christ in any religious sense, whatever."

Ingersol stated his conditions.  The Observer made a pretence of accepting the challenge and then backed out. (the newspaper) again repeated the story with this endorsement: "It has been published again and again, and so far as we know has never been impeached." In a subsequent issue (of the Observer), it said: "We have never stated in any form, nor have we ever supposed that Paine actually renounced his Infidelity. The accounts agree in stating that he died a blaspheming Infidel."


Ingersol then wrote them a congratulatory letter.

 I strikes me as profoundly evil to try to change a person's religion (or lack thereof) or in any way meddle with someone else's memory after they are dead.  The Mormons do this and have "saved" thousands of souls through a process called "proxy baptism."  The depravity simply appalls me.  Yet it is still unsurprising, nay, even expected of Christians.

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Well I'm sure if he'd known he was going to die he'd have "uttered" something more profound.


Hi Jennifer,

 

That is true -- maybe something to the effect, "God, forgive me!  I have been such a fool!  Forgive me and save me from eternal hell!"  

 

It would seem to me that would be the last remarks of any intelligent non-believer.  

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:    Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Why in the world would any intelligent person say something like that?


Jennifer,

 

One has to be intelligent to understand.  So, I will just move on to more productive dialogues.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill


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True, you aren't intelligent enough to understand.

Originally Posted by frog:

...I met patients who were so busy trying to convert everyone around them to Christianity that they seemed not to notice they needed to be concerned with their own readiness to die, and frankly they were some of the loudest, most afraid, unprepared to die people I have ever met.  It surprised me since they were asking all the staff if we were ready to meet their wonderful savior and so forth, but then they would be terrified at the last moment.  Interesting...

Very interesting though not surprising. Thanks for sharing your experiences frog. This particular summary reminded me of what Road Puppy has been saying about Bill Gray for quite some time now. It always rang true but now I think it's a textbook example.

 

As for me personally, I've never had the expectation of an afterlife, even as a child, and I've never feared the reality of death and still don't. I appreciate and embrace that my time will come too and I hope that however long I still have that I can be useful and loving to others while I'm still alive. I hope that I'm living an interesting life of learning, helping and improvement and that I approach whatever my potential is to do the best I can for myself and others on a daily basis. Should I die before tomorrow it would be to soon, but so it goes. And life goes on.

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